How much more time is being given for discussion on this motion?
Private Members' Business. - Internees Under the Offences Against the State Acts—Motion (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Éireann and other persons who are interned under the Offences against the State Acts.— (Deputies McQuillan and Finucane.)
Five minutes.
In connection with the five minutes allowed, I want to make it clear that I am willing to sacrifice part of the time which would be available to me on other motions standing in my name so that extra time would be given to this motion and that other Deputies would be given an opportunity to speak on the motion. There are a number of other motions in my name and, as I have stated, I am willing to give up portion of the time to which I am entitled for discussion of these motions, if the House is agreeable. Otherwise, in the five minutes which are left I am entitled to reply to the debate.
Deputy John A. Costello in possession.
Will the debate finish in five minutes?
I am guided by Standing Orders.
Do we take it that I will get five uninterrupted minutes?
I am prepared to give Deputy Costello until ten minutes past nine.
That is only four minutes.
Until 11 minutes past.
I insist on my right to reply to the debate.
The Deputy himself waived that right the other day.
Three hours are allowed for a motion of this nature. If the Deputy refers to Standing Orders he will find that out. Deputy John A. Costello was speaking when the debate was adjourned and he is entitled to the five minutes left.
There are five minutes left and the mover of the motion has the right to reply. If Deputy Costello gets five minutes——
Subject to Standing Orders.
It has never happened before in this House that the mover of a motion was denied the right to reply to the debate.
I understand the Deputy waived that right last week.
I am entitled to that five minutes and I insist on my rights.
I am calling on Deputy John A. Costello.
I am insisting on my right to reply and I insist on getting the five minutes remaining. As I said earlier, I am prepared to sacrifice——
The Deputy is obstructing the proceedings. The Deputy is not entitled to any time since he has already abrogated his right.
I did not abrogate my right. I insisted, when I moved this Motion, that the seconder of the Motion reserved the right to reply.
Deputy John A. Costello.
It is ten minutes past nine now. Do I take it that I am to have five uninterrupted minutes?
This is a deliberate attempt on the part of the Leader of the Opposition to prevent me from replying to this Motion. It has not happened in this House before.
Deputy John A. Costello has a right to speak. He was speaking when the debate was adjourned and he may conclude his statement.
The inter-Party Government was faced with this problem of Partition and the unlawful use of force and had to frame a policy to meet the situation. Because we in that Government were deeply sensitive to the wrongs of Partition and anxiously concerned to avoid another clash between an Irish Government and a section, however small, of the Irish people, we exercised the utmost forbearance and patience in our dealings with these unlawful associations. We stretched that forbearance and patience to the utmost limit. On the 13th November, 1955, I made in this House on behalf of the Government one last appeal based on reason. That appeal went unheeded and we took action. We had the Border patrolled by members of our own police force and we had our own military forces standing by.
We enforced the laws of our own Parliament and prosecuted offenders against the Irish law in the regular Irish courts. We took steps to inform and educate public opinion and to mobilise that opinion behind our policy. Through the churches and the schools and the organs of public opinion generally we endeavoured to ensure that a true concept of what was at issue would be understood and accepted by the people particularly by young people. We hoped, by these means, to limit and curtail and ultimately to disperse its members and those actively engaged in unlawful activities and to stop the inflow of young people who might be attracted to those activities by false concepts of patriotism and the creation of false consciences. We did not utilise the machinery of internment that lay ready to our hands because we regard that as the line of least resistance and as the least likely to produce permanent results. It would only be adopted as a very last resort——
On a point of order —may I take it that the Leader of the Opposition will allow me at least two minutes to reply?
That is not a point of order.
I think it is a very fair suggestion——
(Interruptions.)
Deputy McQuillan must resume his seat.
I want to protest at this stage, Sir, at your action in taking the part of the Leader of the Opposition in preventing me from replying to the debate. This, in my opinion, is a disgraceful attempt to prevent free expression of opinion——
I cannot prevent the Deputy from having any opinion he likes, but I would be reluctant to oblige the Deputy by having him removed from the House.
We took the harder course——
Is there any possibility that the Leader of the Opposition——
(Interruptions.)
——of endeavouring to eradicate the evil——
I think this is an intolerable situation——
——through the enforcement of the law in the regular courts——
I think this is unfair and I am calling on you, a Cheann Comhairle, not to allow any deliberate——
I am not anxious to oblige Deputy McQuillan. That is what is preventing me from using the power that is vested in me by the House.
I want the members of the House to go into the Division Lobby to show what their opinion is. That is why I want to put one point clearly before the House——
You had two hours.
(Interruptions.)
——with the help of public opinion becoming daily more enlightened and appreciative of the national dangers.
We believed, as we now believe, that that policy would have succeeded. The present Government has adopted a different policy and theirs is the responsibility, and on their actions they will be judged. We cannot, even if we believe, as we do believe, that our policy is better and more likely to bring permanent benefit, embarrass the Government or give comfort to those who still deny the authority of the State by voting for this Motion, but we still think they should have adopted our policy in striving to take active steps to inform public opinion.
The mover of this Motion resorted to a quotation from His Holiness the Pope, to support the arguments he made. May I now give a quotation from His Holiness, which is applicable not only to the people for whom the mover of this Motion purports to speak, but also to those who support and maintain Partition? This is a quotation from an address over the radio by the Holy Father a few days before the outbreak of World War II:—
"It is by force of reason, not of arms, that justice prevails; empires not founded upon justice are not blessed by God. Politics divorced from morality betray the very people who treat them as such."
That is applicable to those who are engaged in unlawful activities against this State and to those who are maintaining the partition of our country.
On a point of order— before the Vote is taken, I wish to say this discussion has taken a most unusual and unprecedented course. The Labour Party was prepared to support this Motion, or indeed any Motion condemning internment without trial in the existing situation, but we are not prepared to support the Motion for the reasons Deputy McQuillan has given. We wanted an opportunity of explaining why we would vote for this Motion or any similar Motion, but we have been denied that by the filibustering speech of Deputy McQuillan. Consequently, we are not prepared to vote when our reasons have not been explained.
That is sheer bluff.
(Interruptions.)
A Deputy
You got your answer in the by-election.
So did Fianna Fáil.
So did Sinn Féin.
Question put and declared lost.
Vótáil.
Would the Deputies challenging a Division please rise in their places?
Deputies Finucane, McQuillan, Johr. Murphy, Tierney and Tully rose.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 103.
Tá
- Finucane, Patrick.
- McQuillan, John.
- Murphy, John.
- Tierney, Patrick.
- Tully, John.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Barry, Richard.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neal T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Kevin.
- Booth, Lionel.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, Seán.
- Burke, James.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Byrne, Patrick.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carty, Michael.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Clohessy, Patrick.
- Coburn, George.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Costello, Declan D.
- Costello, John A.
- Cotter, Edward.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Crowley, Honor M.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Mick.
- de Valera, Eamon.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Dillon, James M.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Dooley, Patrick.
- Egan, Kieran P.
- Egan, Nicholas.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Fanning, John.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Galvin, John.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, James.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Griffin, James.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Healy, Augustine A.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Hogan, Bridget.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Kenny, Henry.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Lindsay, Patrick.
- Loughman, Frank.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- Lynch, Thaddeus.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McMenanmin, Daniel.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Manley, Timothy.
- Medlar, Martin.
- Moher, John W.
- Moloney, Daniel J.
- Mooney, Patrick.
- Moran, Michael.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, William.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Donnell, Patrick.
- O'Higgins, Michael J.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Malley, Donogh.
- Ormonde, John.
- O'Sullivan, Denis J.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Rogers, Patrick J.
- Rooney Eamonn.
- Ryan, James.
- Sheldon, William A.W.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Traynor, Oscar.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies McQuillan and Finucane; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard.
Question declared lost.
Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are together now, where they should have been for a long time—and the public realise it now.
Order!
They are not twisting John Bull's tail now.