Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 1958

Vol. 165 No. 1

Public Business. - Landlord and Tenant (Reversionary Leases) Bill, 1957—From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Traynor)

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:—

SECTION 4.

In page 3, lines 26 to 35 deleted and the following paragraph substituted:—

(a) Where a lease is for a term of not less than 50 years, it shall be presumed, until the contrary is proved, that the buildings on the land demised by the lease were erected by the person who, at the time of their erection, was entitled to the lessee's interest under the lease if—

(i) in the case of a lease granted before the 1st day of January, 1914, the rent reserved by the lease is less than three-fourths of the rateable valuation of the land thereby demised together with the buildings thereon as first fixed or revised subsequent to the date of the lease pursuant to the Valuation (Ireland) Act, 1852, as amended and adapted, or

(ii) in the case of a lease granted on or after the 1st day of January, 1914, the rent reserved by the lease is less than that rateable valuation.

As Deputies are aware, most of the amendments, or a number of them, came from this House and more or less at the request of Deputies. They are now appearing in the form of amendments that were moved in the Seanad and I am prepared to accept the 15 amendments which were inserted there.

Mr. Sweetman

We would like to have a little explanation of some of them as we go along. I do not think that amendment No. 1 was raised in this House.

Mr. Traynor

I said that a number of them——

Mr. Sweetman

Let not the Minister feel in the slightest way that I am cavilling at what he said. I agree with him and appreciate the fact that he has met points raised here. There were one or two which were not raised in this House and in respect of amendments not mentioned here before, I think the Minister might give us a short indication of what was in mind.

Mr. Traynor

This amendment provides that in the case of a lease executed before the 1st January, 1914, it shall be presumed that the lease is a building lease if the rent is less than three-fourths of the earliest rateable valuation of the site and the buildings on it. This is a compromise between the existing provisions of the Bill, which follow the relevant recommendation in the Conroy Report, and a suggestion in the Seanad that the presumption should only arise where the rent is less than half of the rateable valuation.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:—

SECTION 7.

In sub-section (3), paragraph (b), line 8, "charged or chargeable" deleted and "reserved" substituted and "specified" inserted before "period".

Mr. Sweetman

I think it is to meet a point raised by me and I am grateful to the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:—

NEW SECTION.

Before Section 8, a new section inserted as follows:—

(1) Where—

(a) a lessee executes a mortgage by subdemise of the whole or part of the land comprised in his lease, retaining a nominal reversion therein, and

(b) the land comprised in the subdemise is sold for the enforcement of the mortgage,

the purchaser shall, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to have acquired the interest of the lessee in the demised land for the entire of the unexpired term of the lease, including the period of the nominal reversion.

(2) This section shall apply to mortgages and sales whether effected before or after the passing of this Act.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:—

SECTION 10.

In sub-section (1), line 29, "shall be entitled" deleted and in line 32 "shall be entitled on application" inserted before "to".

Mr. Sweetman

Is this for any purpose other than drafting?

Mr. Traynor

Purely drafting.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 5:—

SECTION 11.

In sub-section (1), line 48, "shall be entitled" deleted and in line 52 "shall be entitled on application" inserted before "to".

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:—

In sub-section (1), line 53, "premises" deleted and "land" substituted.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:—

In sub-section (4), lines 36 and 37, "the time for making the application" deleted and "such time" substituted.

This amendment is consequential on Nos. 4 and 5.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 8:—

SECTION 14.

In sub-section (2), line 22, "An applicant" deleted and "A lessee" substituted, in lines 23 and 24 "and his executors, administrators or assigns" deleted and in line 27 "application" deleted and "grant of the reversionary lease" substituted.

This amendment and No. 9 were brought in at the request of Deputy Sweetman. I asked the Draftsman to have it examined from the point of view of endeavouring to meet the point raised. The amendment as drafted is one which meets the point and is also acceptable to the officers of my Department. The suggestion made in the Dáil on Report Stage was that a lessor who intends to rebuild or develop property should be entitled to apply to the court for a decision as to whether or not he will be given possession at the expiration of the lease or leases concerned.

Section 24 of the Bill already allows the lessor to apply to the court to settle any question arising "in regard to the right of any person to a reversionary lease" but I am advised that this provision alone might not suffice to enable the lessor to get the decision he required because the references in Sections 14 and 15 of the Bill to "applicant" appear to suggest that such a decision could only be given on application by the lessee. The references to "applicant" are accordingly being deleted in both Section 14 and Section 15 but it has been more convenient for the Draftsman to insert a new section in lieu of Section 15 than to have a multitude of amendments to it.

As the lessee may not apply until the lease has expired it is desirable as suggested that the lessor should be able to get a decision some years before he becomes entitled to possession in order that he may be in a position to proceed with the work when the lease expires.

Mr. Sweetman

I am grateful to the Minister for meeting this point on the case I raised on the last stage here. I think it is right that the point that was then raised should be met. For the life of me, however, I cannot understand how the amendment as drafted here, notwithstanding the explanation which the Minister has read, does in fact carry out what is now intended. I tried very hard to understand Section 14, as amended, and the new Section 15. I tried to understand them as meaning what the Minister has now stated. I am afraid my mental capabilities were not able to reach that understanding. I take it, however, that the Parliamentary Draftsman has indicated to the Minister that he is quite certain that this amendment as drafted does carry out what was intended and what the Minister has just indicated is intended. I can only accept the Draftsman's view, but it is still a mystery to me.

Mr. Traynor

As I said initially, I have to try to satisfy the Deputy. It now appears that I have not fully satisfied him. At the same time, I must ensure that the officers of my Department are also satisfied and, if we like, we can describe it as my compromise to please the Deputy and, at the same time, to ensure that we are doing what is right by the legal advisers in the Department.

Mr. Sweetman

I do not think there is any difference between myself and the Minister in regard to what we want to do.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 9:—

NEW SECTION.

Before Section 15 a new section inserted as follows:—

15—(1) Where the court is satisfied that a lessee would, but for the provisions of Section 14 of this Act, be entitled to a reversionary lease, compensation in lieu of such reversionary lease shall be paid in accordance with the provisions of this section.

(2) (a) The compensation shall be payable by the successful objector or if there is more than one successful objector by them in such proportion as the court may determine.

(b) The compensation shall be paid to the lessee unless, apart from the provisions of Section 14 of this Act, his title to a reversionary lease was subject to obtaining the consents required by Section 10 or Section 11 of this Act, in which case it shall be paid to the lessee and the proprietary lessee or lessees whose consent was so required in such proportion as the court may determine.

(3) The measure of compensation under this section shall be the loss which will, in the opinion of the court, be suffered by the lessee and by such proprietary lessee or lessees, if any, as a direct consequence of the lessee's having been declared not to be entitled to a reversionary lease.

(4) The compensation payable to a person, being the lessee or a proprietary lessee, under this section shall become due and payable on the occurrence of whichever of the following events is the later, that is to say, the expiration of one month after the amount of the compensation is fixed or the date on which that person's lease terminates either by effluxion of time or by agreement between the parties to it.

(5) Where compensation is payable to a person, being the lessee or a proprietary lessee, under this section and the interest of that person in the land comprised in his lease is subject to a mortgage or charge for securing money, the mortgage or charge shall attach to the compensation and any person who is liable to pay compensation and who has notice of the mortgage or charge shall pay the compensation in accordance with the joint direction of such lessee or proprietary lessee and the mortgagee or chargeant or, in default of such direction, into court.

(6) Where compensation awarded by the court under this section is not paid within the time specified in sub-section (4) of this section or within such extended time as the court may allow, the following provisions shall have effect:

(a) any building lessee, subject to obtaining the consents required by Section 10 of this Act and notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of sub-section (1) of that section, and any proprietary lessee, subject to obtaining the consents required by Section 11 of this Act and notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of sub-section (1) of that section, shall be entitled to obtain from his immediate lessor a reversionary lease of all the land demised by his lease;

(b) the provisions of Section 14 of this Act shall not apply;

(c) the granting of the lease shall operate as a discharge of the said award of compensation; and

(d) the court may make an order for the payment by the successful objector of such damages as the court considers proper for the loss which the building lessee or proprietary lessee has suffered as a direct consequence of the declaration of disentitlement to a reversionary lease.

(7) In this section "successful objector" shall, where the context so admits, be construed as including his executors, administrators and assigns.

This amendment is consequential on No. 8.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 10:—

Section 15 deleted.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 11:—

In sub-section (5) (c), line 6, "to 1955" deleted and "as amended" substituted.

This is just a drafting amendment.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 12:—

SECTION 22.

In page 12, line 43, "granted to him" deleted and "executed by his immediate lessor, and such (if any) superior lessors as may be necessary, in terms agreed upon between the parties or settled by the court" substituted.

This amendment, in conjunction with Nos. 13 and 15, makes it clear that the tenancy conferred on a lessee by sub-section (1) will terminate as soon as the lessor executes a reversionary lease in terms agreed upon between himself and the lessee or settled by the court. It was suggested that there was a possibility of a tenant being enabled to remain in possession indefinitely under the terms of the old lease merely by the device of applying for a reversionary lease and then refusing to take any further steps. Any doubt there may be should be removed by this amendment.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 13:—

In sub-section (2), line 48, "by any person" deleted and in line 49 "him" deleted and "a person" substituted.

This amendment is consequential on amendment No. 12.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 14:—

A new sub-section added as follows:—

(6) Where under sub-section (4) or sub-section (5) of this section the court appoints an officer of the court to execute a reversionary lease for and in the name of, or for and on behalf of, any person, the court may order the rent payable under the reversionary lease to be paid into court to such account as it shall fix, or may make such order and give such directions in regard to the payment of such rent as it may deem proper.

I gave an undertaking in the Dáil, when an amendment on these lines was withdrawn, that I would move it in the Seanad after consultation with the appropriate court officers. It specifically empowers the court to give the necessary directions as to the disposal of the rent where a reversionary lease has been executed by an officer of the court.

Mr. Sweetman

I do not want to look a gift horse in the mouth. I am aware the Minister introduced this amendment in consequence of representations made from this side of the House. I am rather at a loss to understand the circumstances in which it would be desirable to pay such a rent into court. Is it to cover a case where a lessor cannot be found and, therefore, rent should be paid into court until such time as a lessor is traced?

Mr. Traynor

I think that is the point.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 15:—

In page 13, line 45, "his neglect to proceed with an application for such lease" inserted after "Act".

This amendment is consequential on amendment No. 12.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreement with Seanad amendments reported.

Report agreed to.

Ordered: That a message be sent to the Seanad accordingly.