Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1958

Vol. 165 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 61—Social Insurance.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £872,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1958, for payments to the Social Insurance Fund (No. 14 of 1950 and No. 11 of 1952).

The amount which is asked for in this Vote is no small sum. I should like to point out that no portion of it, however, arises from any increase in unemployment in the year 1957-58 as compared with 1956-57. In fact, the total number of persons claiming unemployment benefit has fallen from 55,236 at this time last year to a current 46,179. I may say that this is in marked contrast to the trend of unemployment elsewhere, as shown by the figures in an article entitled "World Unemployment Survey" which appeared in the London Times for yesterday. Those figures show that in January-February of this year the number of unemployed workers was greater than at the corresponding date in 1957——

Of course, there are a good many more Irishmen sent over there by you.

——in the following countries: Australia, Belgium, Britain, Canada, Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden and the United States. That is a fairly representative sample of the conditions which obtain in other countries.

Any emigration?

In the case of Denmark, the figures which are given relate to December, 1956, and December, 1957. The Times gives no figures for the Six Counties, but it is common knowledge that unemployment there has increased so substantially that recently the matter was specially referred to in the House of Commons. Unemployment elsewhere is on the increase; here it is on the decline. Though I say that, I do not wish it to be understood that our position leaves any ground for complacency. Nevertheless, so that there may be no misunderstanding as to the position here and elsewhere, it is essential to realise the significance of the predominating factor, the world trend, in regard to employment. I am justified, then, in repeating what I said at the outset, that the need for an additional £872,000 to supplement the original Vote of £3,620,000 is due, not to an increase in unemployment but to other causes, of which three are of major importance.

The first of these was the virulent influenza epidemic which this country, in common with most of Europe and most of Asia, experienced last year. It is estimated to have increased by £120,000 the amount which normally would be required to meet claims for disability benefit. Next, there was quite an unexpected and, indeed, incomprehensible increase in expenditure on disability benefit, arising otherwise than by reason of the epidemic to which I have referred. This unexpected, abnormal factor imposed an additional charge on the Social Insurance Fund of no less than £153,000; and it therefore demands that a special reference be made to it, particularly as the circumstances in which this additional charge arose still require explanation.

If we take at their face value—as, for the purpose of the social insurance code, the Department of Social Welfare as a rule must do—the medical certificates issued on which claims to disability benefit are passed, it would appear that after the 1st April last, in the experience of certain practitioners, there was an extraordinary increase, not in the number of insured persons falling ill but in the duration of incapability in very, very many cases. Because of that, though the number of persons claiming benefit showed little, if any, increase, nevertheless by reason of the prolongation of the periods covered by medical certificates of so many individuals, there was a marked increase in the amount demanded from the Social Insurance Fund. Examination of this position disclosed the significant fact that the increase in the duration of illness did not appear to be general. It was not, in fact, a general increase, it was not spread over all certifiers but was traceable to the fact that, in or about that date, certain medical certifiers began to issue many more certificates than they formerly did. So far, I have not succeeded in obtaining a satisfactory explanation of this peculiar development—though we shall continue to search for one.

In the meantime, however, I wish to repeat what already has been conveyed to each medical officer, as follows. Insured persons who apply for medical certificates of incapacity for work must present themselves for examination in order that the certifier may determine whether they are incapable of work. If they do not, medical certificates must not be issued in respect of them. If a certifier has signed an agreement for general certification and an insured person is unable to attend at the certifier's surgery or dispensary for examination, the certifier must visit the insured person and examine him before issuing the certificate.

No doubt, the greater number of medical certifiers fulfil their obligations in this matter conscientiously. Some, however, unfortunately do not. I trust that, now that they have been made aware of the seriousness of their obligations, we shall have no ground for complaint even in regard to them.

The two matters which I have mentioned—the increase in the cost of disability benefit, which may properly be ascribable to the influenza epidemic and the increase in the claims for disability benefit arising out of the greater number of medical certificates having been issued in the circumstances which I have mentioned— account for £273,000, leaving £599,000 to be accounted for. This figure can be split into three main items, as follows. The first is £143,000, arising out of overexpenditure on unemployment benefit. The second, of £500,000, was occasioned by the fact that when the original Estimate was prepared towards the end of 1956 the contribution income of the Social Insurance Fund was overestimated to the extent of £500,000; and the third, of £48,000, was due to the fact that the amount drawn from the Exchequer to meet claims on the fund arising during the year which ended on the 31st March, 1957, was deficient by that sum. These three items amount to £691,000, and with the £273,000 excess expenditure on disability benefit, the figure comes to £964,000.

Would the Minister repeat the first figure he mentioned?

£143,000, overexpenditure on unemployment benefit arising from the fact that the Estimate prepared in the autumn of 1956 grievously underestimated the trend of unemployment notwithstanding the information which was then in the possession of the Coalition Government as to what that trend was.

Not at all. The position is quite simple. If we were there now, the figures would be different because we knew what we were about; the present Government does not.

We shall probably have an opportunity of hearing Deputy Sweetman expatiate on that theme. Let me come back to the three items which I mentioned first: overexpenditure arising out of underestimation of unemployment benefit, secondly, the deficiency in contribution income arising out of an over-optimistic estimation as to what the unemployment position would be in the year 1957-58, and, thirdly, an underdraw of £48,000 from the Exchequer to meet the charges from the Social Insurance Fund for the year ending 31st March, 1957.

The then Minister for Finance reaped, I suppose, a retrospective advantage in so far as if that £48,000 had been drawn the deficit on his Budget for 1956-57 would have been £48,000 greater. These three items, as I have said, come to £964,000. As against this, certain savings on estimated expenditure together with increases from other sources of income to the fund amounting all told to £97,000, are offset to reduce the actual amount asked for to £867,000 which is the figure mentioned in the report.

The Supplementary Estimate moved by the Minister just now is one of a number he moved totalling over £6,000,000 and I just comment that that is a strange procedure for a Government which on the occasion of the Budget last May undertook that Supplementary Estimates this year would not exceed £2.9 million.

The Minister, in introducing this Supplementary Estimate, availed of the opportunity to engage in some polemics on the subject of unemployment. He forgot that if he and his colleagues were true to the pledges they entered into in relation to unemployment, this Supplementary Estimate would not be necessary because the unemployment problem that they were elected to solve would, if they were true to the promises they made, have disappeared. In fact, of course, nothing has been done with regard to that unemployment problem. It is still there. It still requires to be tackled, if not by the present Government certainly by the Government that succeeds it.

If one is to judge correctly what the Minister says, he seemed to suggest that the unemployment position is now a happier one than it was twelve ago. I hope that the unemployed of this city and throughout the country will read very carefully what the Minister has said. Apparently, the Minister is complacent with regard to the unemployment position.

That is a misrepresentation. I disclaimed any complacency.

He told us here of his readings of periodicals published elsewhere and that apparently no matter how bad our position may be it is much better than that of other countries. I wonder does the Minister think the people of this country live in some kind of a balloon. Does he not realise that whatever slight reduction may exist in the unemployment figures now as compared with 12 months ago is largely due to the fact that those who were out of work 12 months ago found it impossible to wait for a Fianna Fáil Government to find them employment and emigrated elsewhere and that the slight fall in our unemployment figures is largely due to emigration? It may be that the increase in unemployment figures in England may be contributed to by emigration from this country but certainly the unemployment position now does not and could not give any grounds for the complacent speech to which the Minister has treated us.

The Minister has said that the figures he has given here were largely due to 'flu, to the fact, in addition, that more insured persons have been certified as disabled and to an overexpenditure in relation to unemployment benefit The Minister also stated that £500,000 of the figure he requires now is due to an overestimation in the contribution income in relation to the fund. In referring to these figures, the Minister availed of the opportunity to suggest that the original Estimate was based on some mistake or faulty estimation. That is not so. The original Estimate which was prepared by the previous Government and introduced by the Minister was an Estimate that was very carefully examined. It was an Estimate based on the assumption that the previous Administration would remain in office and that the policy of the previous Administration would be implemented. If it had been implemented, no deficiency such as we have been told of to-day would have arisen.

I do not think anything else requires to be said with regard to the Estimate, except again to remind the House that if the Minister and his colleagues were true to the trust which got them into office, this £800,000 odd would not be required, because, in fact, all the women who voted for the Minister and his colleagues, to get their husbands back to work, would now be enjoying the security which should be enjoyed arising from secure employment. To the extent that the Government have failed in that respect, this money is obviously necessary and we cannot object to its being given.

Both the Minister and the last speaker have said that this is no small sum of money, and, in view of the fact that there is an obligation on the Government to pay it to recipients of social insurance, I am sure nobody in the House will object to giving the Minister the appropriate sum. I was rather interested in the manner in which the Minister introduced this Estimate. His colleague and Parliamentary Secretary in introducing Estimates, as he has done, has given the details without any observations or without being, as the Minister appeared to be, on the defensive. The Minister has come in here in a half-apologetic and half-defensive mood.

The arguments as to why this sum should be voted were rather amusing and I do not think the Minister was entirely correct. I am not saying that I do not think he was entirely honest in alleging there was some rigging of the Estimates for 1957-58. I might say that it is no consolation to workers to tell them that in New Zealand or the U.S.A. or Canada, the unemployment position is worse than it is over here. Fianna Fáil have always said we should have a self-sufficient country and that we should run our own affairs as we want them, and I do not think that the unemployed workers of this country should be told: "You are not too badly off; there are 4,000,000 unemployed in America and a higher percentage in this country or in that country who are unemployed."

I do not think I accept the reasons the Minister gives for the necessity for this £872,000, either in respect of sickness benefit or in respect of unemployment benefit, because the £872,000 is to be devoted to these purposes. The plain fact is that Fianna Fáil had an opportunity, if they wanted to, to adjust the Estimate, as they had in respect of other Estimates during Budget time. There is no point in blaming either the previous Government or the previous Minister, if the figure was wrong. I do not say it was wrong; I say it was correct.

Having regard to what the present Government said about this time last year, what they should have done was to reduce the Estimate both for social insurance and social assistance. The fact is that no matter what excuses the Minister might give, the reasons why we have to give him this sum is, firstly, that Fianna Fáil did not get cracking and, secondly, that the unfortunate women did not get their husbands back to work, or, if they did get them back to work, it was to work in England.

The Minister has blamed Asian 'flu for increasing the sickness benefit. Granted it would take part of the increase, but I do not think that Asian 'flu swept across this country so much that we have to provide an additional £153,000. My experience of the sickness benefit and the disability benefit at the present time is contrary to what the Minister says. I may be open to correction, but I am only looking at the situation as a Deputy who has contact with his constituents and other people throughout the country. The great difficulty is proving that a person is sufficiently ill or sufficiently disabled to qualify for sickness or disability benefit.

I would say, and I say this without having anything to back it up, but my own experience with my constituents, that it is very difficult now in some cases to qualify for either of these benefits. I do not know whether there have been instructions to the medical referees or the medical officials of the Department to the effect that the sum of money devoted to this purpose should be cut down, but I have complaints, week after week, from people who say it is impossible to prove sickness or disability to the medical referee, so far as workers are concerned.

I was interested also in the allegation by the Minister—I thought he was going to mention certain areas—that there was fraudulent certification by members of the medical profession.

I did not use the word "fraud". They may have been lax or negligent, and that is quite different.

If that is true, it is serious; if it is incorrect, it is a serious allegation. If any member of the profession willynilly hands out certificates saying that people are eligible for benefits, it is a very serious thing, and I think the Minister for Social Welfare or the Minister for Health, through the Irish Medical Association, should take some sort of action. But here is the rub. I remember—in 1953, I think—the then Minister for Social Welfare, now Minister for Finance, coming in here and asking for a colossal sum of money—an additional Estimate for Social Insurance—and this was one of the excuses he trotted out then. His excuse for a Supplementary Estimate at that time was, in part, that doctors were not doing their duty, so far as the certification of disability and illness was concerned. I should like the Minister to give examples in substantiation of the allegation he has made, and, if he can substantiate it, to take the necessary action.

I should like to tell the Minister that the method of estimating social insurance for 1957-58 was the very same method as I am sure will be employed this year and as has been employed since the Department of Social Welfare was established. The Estimates for social insurance were based on the experience of the 12 months of the year, from January to December of 1957, and the unemployment figures for those 12 months indicated an amount of expenditure as was shown in the Estimates for the years 1957 and 1958. There was not high unemployment at the beginning of the year 1957 and our forecast and our calculations entitled us to believe that the same trend would operate for the year 1958 or, if you like, for the financial year 1957-58.

So far as I remember, there was no insistence by the Minister for Finance that that Estimate should be cut. There was no insistence that the estimated income into the Insurance Fund should be jacked up to a level that it should not be. The Estimates that were submitted to me by the officials in my Department were accepted by me at the time, were accepted by the Minister for Finance, and were accepted by the Government. Despite what the Minister may think or allege, there was no attempt at "hoofling", in connection with the Estimates for the Department of Social Welfare for the years 1957 and 1958.

That is all I want to say on this Estimate, except to add that the Minister, by his defensive attitude, clearly indicates that there is no defence by the Fianna Fáil Government or by the Minister for Social Welfare, in respect of this additional £872,000. The plain fact is that they have not provided employment and cannot insist that people do not get sick and that sick people work.

My only intervention, pending the Minister's reply to the speeches that have been or may be made, is in relation to Deputy Corish's reference to medical certification. There has been a laxity, and great laxity, and the Minister is taking action about it with the Medical Association. The vast majority of doctors are conscientious and do their work right, but the laxity of some of them is of such importance, and has such a bearing on the whole situation, that the Minister has to take action, has taken action, and that action is in course of operation.

A question was asked since this session of the Dáil began—I cannot remember who the Deputy was who asked it—about certification over a period of years. There has been a very steep rise in medical certification. I have here certain figures in relation to went up to 558,843. For the quarter ended 31st March, 1956, medical certifications numbered 539,850; in the corresponding quarter of 1957, they went up to 558,843. For the quarter ended 30th June, 1956, they were 525,955, and for the corresponding quarter in 1957, 550,445. In the quarter ended 30th September, 1956, they were 502,586, and, in September last, 545,020.

That was the Asian flu.

That was September. I will finish the table now. For the quarter ended 31st December, 1956, they were 528,865 and in the same quarter in 1957, they were 585,366. There has been no difficulty in getting certificates for illness and that is my experience as a rural Deputy. I know this much, that, in certain cases, the son or daughter goes up to the doctor's house and gets a medical certificate without the patient appearing at all, and, in cases, the patient has been working. I have on my table a couple of recent cases where disability benefit was drawn for weeks, while the recipients were working. We had a particular case and, if justice obtained, the man should be struck off the role by the Medical Association altogether. That was in very recent times. This medical certification is a very serious matter and steps are being taken in the Department, under the Minister's guidance, to put an end to that. It is not right that it should exist. That was the only thing upon which I wished to speak.

I want to refer to the Minister's opening remarks when he compared the trends in regard to unemployment in this country with trends in some other countries outside it, a country in Europe and the United States of America. I think those remarks might give a wrong impression because the countries he referred to have been passing through a long period of, if not over-employment, at least full employment. It was not correct to take statistics of countries like Great Britain and America, and compare them with the unemployment we have in this country.

In Great Britain, the rate of unemployment is only about 1½ per cent. and in the United States, where they have something like a major recession, it is around 6 per cent. In this country, the rate fluctuates between 7 and 9 per cent. Though the Minister says that the trend appears to be downward, I think the overall picture, compared with the countries he mentioned, is very far from encouraging. In his reply, perhaps the Minister would give us some comparative statistics in regard to the percentage of unemployment in the countries concerned and the percentage here.

The real kernel of the thing is, as Deputy Corish and other speakers pointed out, that the Government plans for increasing employment have not come to pass. Perhaps this is not a subject for general discussion at this stage, but that is the kernel of the whole thing. The results which the Government anticipated, and which the electors put them into office to secure, have not been obtained. Until that happens, I am satisfied that not alone will we go on each year supplying substantial sums for social welfare assurance and assistance, but we can also look forward to the Minister coming in looking for additional moneys each year.

This Estimate is an admission of failure on the part of the Fianna Fáil Government in providing employment for the people who were registered as unemployed last year. Very smugly, the Minister compared the figures last year to those for this year, but he carefully avoided any mention of the large-scale emigration which has taken place during last year. It is admitted in many quarters that the amount of emigration which took place during 1957 was the highest in any year since this State was established. Many public-spirited people are alarmed at the high figure of emigration at the present time. This is a matter which I feel the Minister should have referred to when he came here with this Estimate, which I have described as an admission of failure on the part of the Government to provide employment for the people who expected it.

The Minister carefully avoided mentioning the fact that there is more employment in Dublin City and county this year than there was last year. In addition, there is a considerable degree of destitution and hunger amongst the unemployed, owing to the increased cost of bread and butter. The Minister should not have offered brazen excuses and comparisons to the House when trying to explain the reason for introducing this Supplementary Estimate. When the Parliamentary Secretary was speaking I was hoping that he would try to justify the speech he made in County Westmeath when he alleged that millions of pounds were being fraudulently obtained from the Department of Social Welfare.

I did not make that speech. Quote the speech.

The Parliamentary Secretary knows he made the speech and he was criticised for making it.

And back-pedalled on it.

I did not say millions of pounds were being fraudulently obtained.

That is exactly what the Parliamentary Secretary did say and when he got up here to-day he should have tried to justify that statement instead of running away from it, as he did, and taking the opportunity, as he did, of abusing the medical profession for the manner in which certificates are issued. Surely he will not say that the members of the medical profession issued certificates without being asked for them, but that seemed to be the general trend of the Minister's speech—the laxity in the manner in which medical certificates were issued, suggesting that they were being issued to people without being requested. I was surprised that the Minister did not tell us this evening that he had taken this matter up with the Irish Medical Association. He did not say he had done that, but he blackened the profession in general by alleging laxity in the issue of certificates. If there was laxity, then the matter should have been taken up with the profession and the Minister should be in a position this evening to tell us about his discussions with the Irish Medical Association instead of accusing all and sundry.

Finally, as I mentioned last week, we are indebted to the Irish Independent for statistics showing that there are, in fact, 2,000 fewer people engaged in industry this year as compared with last year, and industry is the productive side of employment. That is proof that the Government have failed completely in their undertaking. They have not kept their promises to the wives who were asked: “Vote for Fianna Fáil and get your husbands back to work.”

The Minister in introducing this Supplementary Estimate appeared to me to apologise for looking for the money necessary. He made a point of attempting to prove that this money is due to anything rather than increased sickness numbers or increased unemployment numbers. I consider it a good thing that we should be voting this money for people who are genuinely ill or people who are genuinely unemployed, if they have that misfortune. I do not think any apology is needed.

I have had a certain amount of experience as a national health agent over a long number of years and I am doubtful as to the validity of the claim that the fault lies in certification. My experience has been quite the reverse. If I understood the Minister correctly, the cases he claims went on longer than before in April were obviously long-term sickness cases. Surely people who are ill need more than just certification. It is dispensary doctors in the main who attend what might be called the national health cases and they do something more than just supply certificates. They treat the patients. If a doctor is treating a patient he must visit that patient, so it is rather ridiculous to have an instruction issuing from the Department telling doctors they should see patients before they certify them. I imagine any doctor would have to see the patient first in order to treat him.

In the case of the chronically disabled and the chronically ill, there is not very much that can be done other than repeat the medicine already prescribed and certify. In such cases I cannot understand how there can be any increased duration because these people are chronically ill all their lives.

The explanation for the increase now being sought does not hold water. It merely means that there are more claims and there is a very good reason for that. The Asian 'flu may have contributed to it. I do not remember any year in which there was not some kind of 'flu epidemic. Very often this 'flu is an excuse for taking a few days off unofficially, but I do not think the Asian 'flu accounted for more than a slight increase on the previous year.

The Minister made some comparisons with other countries. America, Canada and New Zealand. Surely the Minister gives us the credit for having enough intelligence to know that these other countries do not suffer from the advantage, if you like to call it that, of emigration? Ireland has that advantage, if one can call it an advantage. Those who were unemployed 12 months ago and two years ago have left the country. They had no other choice.

It might be interesting for the Minister to take note of the increase in sickness benefit in April. In or around that time an Employment Period Order comes into operation and men are refused unemployment benefit in the labour exchanges. While doctors can keep a check on certification in the case of serious illness, if a man who is going to be cut off unemployment benefit goes sick with a pain in his back it is very difficult for any doctor to say conscientiously that that man is not sick and the doctor must, therefore, issue a certain amount of certification. I suggest that the increase in certification at that period arises simply because it is another way of getting unemployment money. In other words, the unemployment position is the real reason why this big increase takes place. Let us face that situation. I do not see any reason why the Minister should not have taken that attitude and clearly and honestly stated that.

The House is faced this evening with yet another formidable Supplementary Estimate. When the Minister for Finance was introducing his Budget last year, he stated:—

"The Government are resolved to resist any further additions to the year's commitments. It would, however, be unwise to ignore the possibility of unforeseen contingencies arising. The allowance made for such contingencies in each of the last four years has been £750,000 but it has never been adequate. I am allotting a somewhat larger sum this year—£950,000—which, with the items I have already specified, entails a total supplementary provision for current services of £2,500,000 approximately."

By the time we finish to-night, it is more than likely that the total of supplementaries passed will have exceeded £7,250,000. This is the work of a Government resolved to resist any further additions to the year's commitments. There can, of course, be no question of opposing the Estimate that we are now discussing. It has been pointed out that the Estimate would have been unnecessary had the Government lived up to the great expectations the people were led to hold would materialise from the election of a Fianna Fáil Government. They celebrate to-day the first anniversary of their election by introducing this formidable Estimate to meet the charge on the Department of Social Welfare in assisting these people. It has been pointed out, and rightly so, that assurance were given that employment would be afforded to those people in the community who were displaced. Can we say that the results have been in any way gratifying? Deputy Russell already referred to it. Let me cross the floor to the Fianna Fáil ranks and see what reaction there is in the Fianna Fáil organisation itself.

I am quoting from the Guardian, published in Nenagh, for Saturday, 1st March, in regard to a Fianna Fáil Convention for North Tipperary presided over by the Minister for Defence:—

"Mr. Rodge Williams (Cloughjordan) said last year they had Mr. Lemass in Nenagh and he told them the object of the Government was to relieve unemployment and said ‘let us get cracking'. They had waited for the Government to get cracking and the results had been very poor. There were almost as many unemployed to-day as there were 13 months ago."

How many have emigrated in that time? A few weeks ago, I took the opportunity here of referring to the fact that, in my own constituency of North Cork, we had emigration taking the people away at a faster rate than ever known before in that constituency.

The Deputy cannot hang a debate on emigration and unemployment on this Supplementary Estimate for Social Services. The Deputy can refer to what is in the White Paper. The question of emigration does not arise.

The White Paper would be for a very much greater sum, were it not for the case which emigration has given to this problem.

It has nothing to do with it.

Last year, we had over 4,000 workers engaged in what I would describe as gainful employment under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, and we wiped it out. We have to find money here to-night for men displaced from employment because these men would not be of the age at which they could face for the boat as quickly as younger men. We were told that the £250,000, which was spent in giving employment to 4,000 rural workers, was a saving to the Exchequer. Is the saving reflected in this Supplementary Estimate? We had a milling industry in the town of Mallow which has closed down completely in the past few months. There is no provision here for a single £ to pay any of the 50 men displaced there, because there is not a man of them in this country to-night.

How does that arise on this Estimate?

I am referring to the fact that it does not arise on it, because we do not have to find the money for them—they have emigrated.

If it does not arise, it should not be referred to.

The Minister went very far afield, to Denmark, America and England, to tell us that things are worse there than they are here.

I merely referred to the fact that this Supplementary Estimate was not occasioned by an increase in unemployment.

By no increase in unemployment?

By any increase in unemployment.

Is it in order for the Deputy to point out why?

The Deputy may certainly refer to it in passing, but not in the detail in which he is speaking. The Supplementary Estimate deals with social insurance and the sub-heads are to be seen on the White Paper.

I do not want to dispute your ruling, Sir, but I do want a ruling on the point. I understand the position is that the Minister, in introducing this Estimate, made a case that the amount involved was not required because of any additional unemployment. I put it to you that it is in order for Deputies to discuss that statement or make the case, if they can, that the reason it is required is additional unemployment.

I put it to you, Sir, that I made a passing reference. I quoted relevant statistics for claims for unemployment benefit this year as compared with last year. I made a passing reference to the trend of unemployment last year. I did not devote a speech to it.

What is passing now is the population passing abroad.

The Minister, in his passing reference, presented it as a text that really we should not grumble —things were worse elsewhere. "Wives, get your husbands to work." Of course, the countries he referred to have not emigration to relieve their figures. Consequently, they have to be reflected in their unemployment figures. There is no other place in which they can be reflected.

That is the only point in pointing out and bringing home to the Government that the discontent that exists in the Cloughjordan Fianna Fáil Cumann is prevalent throughout the country in relation to the Government's policy in getting cracking and in providing employment when there are 2,000 fewer employed in industrial concerns to-day than 12 months ago.

In addition, this amount is not the only amount that has been devoted this year to facing up to these unemployment figures. This Dáil was not long in session when we were told that there was a remission of £1,750,000 in the import levies, which, we were told, would have a wonderful effect upon employment. Where are the results now of that remission? With that remission, why is it necessary to devote such a sum here to meet the charge on the Department of Social Welfare?

I am not surprised when the Minister states there has been a large increase in the number of applications for sickness benefit. I take it that the figure of £153,000 given by the Minister would, in the main, represent claims made in the Dublin area. I am not surprised, because it is quite evident, from the large numbers attending dispensaries, that there has been an increase in illness. I agree with the Minister that a certain amount of laxity in certification does occur. I do not attribute that in any way to culpable neglect by the doctors, but I do attribute it to the condition under which the doctors are working in the various dispensaries.

The majority of certificates issued in Dublin are issued through dispensary doctors, and to some extent the Minister has the remedy in his own hands. The dispensary doctor is involved in work other than certification. His time is involved in the registration of deaths, marriages and births. If the Minister takes these functions away from the dispensary doctor, then the dispensary doctor can devote his entire time to the certification and examination of patients.

Another matter to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention is the extent to which the advantages at the disposal of dispensary doctors at St. Kevin's Hospital are availed of. I think, from my experience, that they should be availed of to a greater degree.

Regarding the suggestion that there was wholesale fraud in claims for unemployment benefit, I should like to say that as far as Dublin is concerned that would hold no water. The extent of any fraud which would occur in Dublin would extend to applicants signing for work on the same date. In that connection, I should like to ask the Minister that, where such cases are held up, an expeditious investigation of the claim should be made and, if possible, the payment resumed. I do not know whether the Minister is aware that it happens that in quite a large number of cases people who go to seek employment after they have signed at the Labour Exchange are lucky enough to get it. I came across a case where a claim was held up for three or four weeks before the payment was resumed. I should like to ask the Minister to give that matter his attention.

I think I can be very brief at this stage in discussing this Supplementary Estimate. The amount is needed and there can be no opposition to the Estimate. I feel bound to say that I think it would have been a good idea had the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary got together this evening before they came into the House asking for this Estimate because it is quite clear to me in one respect at least that they appear to be at loggerheads.

The Minister, in dividing up the Estimate into different categories, told the House that increased disability benefit, outside that attributed to the 'flu, accounted for £153,000 while he made an oblique reference to laxity in medical certification. He did say that up to now he was unable to ascertain the reason for this increase. But following on his heels the Parliamentary Secretary had no such inhibitions. Apparently there was no doubt at all in the mind of the Parliamentary Secretary that there is a well-founded and widespread conspiracy between the certifying doctors and the insured persons in this connection.

He appears to be thoroughly convinced that the insured person is malingering in very many instances and that he is getting the wholehearted co-operation of the certifying doctors in that connection. He has not yet convinced the Minister that that is so. He has not convinced Deputy Gogan and candidly I do not believe him. Will anybody suggest that a person in employment just for the fun of it is going to pretend he is ill and thereby put himself on an income which is 20 or 25 per cent. of his normal earnings? Will anybody suggest that most of the doctors in this country are not above such a conspiracy?

I think the Parliamentary Secretary has been misled by somebody in his Department in this connection because, since he took over office, he appears to be obsessed with this idea. We are told that special instructions have now been issued again to the doctors. I hope that the manner in which this is being handled will not create a scare among doctors and scare them to such an extent that they may be very slow to certify cases they should certify.

If you want to ascertain one reason at least for the increase in disability benefit payable over the past year you will have to go back to the Budget. Nobody can deny that the impositions of that Budget increased the cost of living and decreased the purchasing power of the ordinary working-class family. The effect of that is quite obvious to everybody—further undernourishment for himself and his family. He is up against every kind of hardship regarding clothing and shelter. I think the Minister would be well advised if he would even now consult the medical advisers of his Department and ask them for their opinions as to what effect the decreased purchasing power had on the increased incidence of disability amongst insured persons.

I am convinced that there is a very definite connection in that regard. The Department appear to have launched a campaign to view with suspicion everybody who claims either disability benefit or unemployment benefit. There seems to be an atmosphere growing at departmental level which has permeated right down through the usual channels to the local exchanges whereby anybody who makes any kind of claim for social welfare benefit is viewed with suspicion. He is suspected of malingering and lying.

The Department, on the other hand, have taken steps to ensure that the payment of benefit will be cut to a minimum. I feel that to a large extent they have adopted what might be regarded as sharp practices in that respect. We have a horde of special investigators round the country now checking up on people drawing disability benefit. We even had cases in Cork where people in a certain category of unemployed persons were offered employment in Dublin, and because of the fact that it would be unsuitable for them and not possible for them to take up their usual employment 160 miles away from their homes their claims were held up. I grant that, after pressure, the claims were paid.

I think the Minister should face realities and come into the House and say quite candidly that he needs these extra moneys because the policy that he and his colleagues put before the electorate was not carried out and not come in with a cock-and-bull story about Asian 'flu and a contradictory reference to disability benefit, which reason is not shared by the Parliamentary Secretary. It would be more candid and honest and would get better support from the House if the Minister did as I suggest.

Deputy Corish appears to be somewhat sceptical in regard to the explanation I gave as to the reason why we had to ask for an additional sum because of the increase in the claims for disability benefit. He went so far as to say that the reference to the 'flu epidemic last year was not justified. I think he was followed in that line by Deputy Casey. Deputy Corish said that so far as he was concerned the Estimate was prepared in September. It was prepared in October, 1956. He based it on the experience of the preceding year. It is a recognised fact. It is common knowledge——

I was talking about unemployment and I made that very clear.

Will the Deputy please listen? I listened to him.

I hate to be misrepresented.

The Deputy is an adept at that. I listened to the Deputy with great attention and with a considerable amount of patience. I wanted the Deputy to make his case because I thought it would have been an interesting case for us to hear. The Estimate for 1957-58 was, according to my information, prepared in October, 1956. There was not in October, 1956, or during the winter of 1956 any general illness comparable to that which was experienced last year in the particularly virulent type of epidemic which we experienced. All I am saying in relation to that matter is that the expenditure on this disability benefit was underestimated when the Estimate was being prepared under Deputy Corish's aegis——

Did you see the Asian 'flu coming that time?

I am not reflecting on the Deputy's prophetic capacity. I do not imply that he has the ability to see 12 months ahead, neither he nor any other individual——

Only yourself?

No, I was merely explaining what had happened. It was a justification, a defence of the Deputy. I merely explained that the 'flu was one of the reasons why the Estimate which the Deputy made when he was Minister as to expenditure on the disability services was short by £273,000. I was not responsible for preparing the Estimate for social insurance for the year, 1957-58. It was prepared, as the Deputy himself has accepted, in the autumn of 1956 when Deputy Corish was Minister for Social Welfare and all I came into this House to do was to explain what had happened to upset it. After all, Deputy Corish cannot be held responsible for the fact that there was an influenza epidemic which distorted, in fact, falsified his Estimate to the extent of £120,000. And then, that of course, left the balance of £153,000 to be explained.

Again, it was Deputy Corish's figure and not mine that I was justifying, when I said that this £153,000 arose because of a trend which had begun to assert itself about March or April of last year. It is a pity Deputy Casey is not in the House to hear that date. Then by reason of what appeared to be —and still is to me—an inexplicable prolongation of the duration of illness, the number of medical certificates issued was considerably more than had been anticipated by Deputy Corish when he was Minister for Social Welfare and responsible for framing the Estimate for 1957-58. That is all I said.

Deputy Casey has suggested that one of the reasons for this increase in the number of certificates issued, inexplicable as that number has been, was because of the Budget of May. The trend had asserted itself before the Budget, before there had been any reduction in food subsidies and before there had been any increase in taxation. The trend had already asserted itself, and rather signally asserted itself, after there had been a change of Government and before any fiscal measures had been introduced by the Government. That was the position and what I was saying was that to the extent of £273,000 Deputy Corish in respect of disability expenditure had been over-optimistic in estimating the charge which would come upon the Vote.

The other cause to which I ascribe the fact that we now have to ask for an additional £872,000 is the over-optimistic estimate which had been framed in respect of the trend of employment during 1956-57. I have been listening with some patience—I like to listen patiently when I think I have a bad case to refute—to the suggestion made by Deputy O'Sullivan that the House was faced with another formidable Supplementary Estimate because of the failure of the Government to implement its promises. When I moved this Estimate I was fully aware of—at least I anticipated—the line which the Opposition, the Fine Gael Opposition mainly, would take in regard to it, and so I was at some pains to expose to the House the causes which had compelled us to come and ask for this £872,000. I mentioned the influenza and the extraordinary increase in the number of medical certificates issued and then I came to the real kernel of the matter, the additional amount which was required in order to meet the uncovered claims for unemployment benefit. I should say that for that purpose the sum is £143,000. This has been due to the fact that expenditure from the fund was underestimated. Furthermore, to the extent of £500,000, the contributions income to the fund was overestimated, leaving a deficit of £643,000 to be met out of this Vote.

I also indicated that this failure of the Estimate to fulfil expectations was not due to any increase in the number of people claiming unemployment benefit. I mentioned in passing that the latest reputable survey, not a document published in a periodical somewhere else but an analysis taken from official figures of the general world position in relation to unemployment, showed that in countries so far apart as Australia, Belgium, Britain, Canada, Denmark, the Netherlands and the United States there had been a marked increase in unemployment in the months of January and February of this year compared with the corresponding months of last year. I only mentioned that in passing, not in any spirit of complacency, as Deputy Thomas O'Higgins said, but merely in order that we might get a reasonably accurate picture as to what in fact was happening in this country and elsewhere.

Will the Minister answer a question?

No. I do not propose to be interrupted.

If you want an accurate picture must you not deal with emigration as well in those countries?

No. Emigration does not enter into this picture in the context in which I am speaking.

I suppose it does not exist at all.

I am now dealing with claims for unemployment benefit. When I had done this in opening, Deputy Corish, told the Dáil that the estimate had been prepared on the basis of the experience of the previous 12 months. In fact, the estimate, as I pointed out, was prepared in October, 1956. Let us see what the trend was month by month over that 12-month period so far as claims for unemployment benefit are concerned. I will take the earlier year, 1955, first.

In April of 1955 the number of people claiming unemployment benefit was 35,348; in April of 1956, the number had risen to 37,839, an increase of 2,500 over the preceding year. In May, the increase was 2,600 over the preceding May. In June, 1956, it was 4,300 over the preceding June; in July, 1956, it was 5,200 over the preceding July; in August, it was 8,067 over the preceding August; in September, it was 9,167 over the preceding September; in October, it was 11,222 over the corresponding month in 1955; in November it was 12,112 over November of 1955; in December, it was 13,289 over the corresponding figure in 1955. In January, before this Government came in, it was 15,609 higher than it had been in January, 1955, in February, it was 14,076 higher than the corresponding figure for 1955 and in March it was 7,237 higher than it had been in March of 1956.

There is a continuous trend upwards, rising from 37,839 in April of 1956 to 51,000 in December of 1956 and then declining in number to 48,000 in March of 1957. But, even though there was a decline from January to March, nevertheless, the figure for March, 1957, was no less than 7,237 higher than it had been for March of 1956.

May I ask the Minister a question? Was there any provision made for that increase?

That is the point I am coming to. I am now dealing with the trend. It has been alleged that I have misrepresented the position to the House. I have shown the House now that the increase in unemployment between 1956-57 and 1955-56 had risen from 2,500 at the beginning of that period to 15,609 in January of last year, again, before there had been a change of Government.

What then happened? After the change the rate of increase had fallen from 7,200 in March of 1957 to a rate of increase of 6,093 in April. The downward trend in rate of increase continued to 3,133 in May, 1,344 in June, 1158 in July. Then, in August, the trend changed completely because, instead of there being a continuing increase in the claims for unemployment benefit, as there had been over almost the previous 18 months, this upward trend in claims for unemployment benefit, which had begun in April, 1956, and continued right through the remainder of that year on up until the end of July of 1957, was reversed. The number of claims for the year 1957-58 began to be less than it had been in the year preceding, in this way: in August, as I have pointed out, it was 1,656 lower than in August of 1956; in September, 1957, it was 3,399 lower than in September of 1956; in October, 1957, it was 6,189 lower than in October, 1956; in November, 6,866 lower than it had been in the preceding November; in December of last year it was 9,819 lower than it had been in the corresponding month of the preceding year and in January, 1958, it was 9,242 lower than it had been in January of 1957. As I have pointed out here, for February last, the latest figure available, it is 9,107 lower than it was in February of 1957.

That is what I said and there are the figures to show that the statement which I made at the outset was true that whereas the trend of unemployment elsewhere was upwards, the trend of unemployment in this country since the policy of this Government began to be effective has been downwards.

And emigration?

Emigration has got nothing to do with this because I am dealing only with unemployment benefit. The Deputy ought to see how, if there was any substance in his interruption, it would boomerang upon himself and his Government because where did the 15,600 more unemployed who existed here under his Government in January of 1957 go? Where did they go? Perhaps the Deputy would think over the implications of his remark.

Their wives got them back to work.

Deputy Corish should listen to this seriously because he is supposed to be a labour leader. He is supposed to represent the cause of the workers in this House.

I am listening to you juggling with figures.

I know that Deputy Corish is very restive. After all, he was a member of a Government which was responsible for bringing about the situation which I have described. There is the fact that the number of unemployed has shown such a considerable increase over the past 12 months that Deputy Corish held office as Minister for Social Welfare. Having made the point that there was this continuous upward trend, I want to come back to the remarks I made in opening the debate.

Does the Minister say there are more people in employment now?

He could not say that because there are not.

I am reverting again to what I said at the beginning.

Will the Minister answer my question?

I shall make my own speech.

I only tried to help the Minister.

One of the reasons why we had to ask for this very substantial increase in the provision for Vote 61 is that there was this over expenditure upon disability benefit. When I talk about "over-expenditure" I mean by the term the expenditure on unemployment benefit which was in excess of the original Estimate.

Repetition. We heard that three times already.

It will sink in.

He got mixed up the first time.

I was about to say, from that, that so far as I can see— and the figures I have cited prove it— there was no justification for taking the optimistic view which Deputy Corish, when he was Minister, took as to what the trend would be during 1957-58. There is less justification for it when you find that the Estimate was prepared under his aegis—and I am sure he scrutinised this Estimate as any responsible Minister should do—and satisfied himself there were good grounds for presenting it. Whether he suggested that, after all, things might not be as black in a few months as they were at the time when the Estimate was prepared, I do not know. However, I do know——

The Minister would see on the departmental files if that was right. Read the files.

The Minister is responsible in this House. None of his officers can come in here and present an Estimate to this House. He comes here and presents it and must stand over it.

And he will. The Minister suggested I told the officials to frame the Estimates.

Perhaps the Deputy took it and signed it on the dotted line. I do not know.

Look at the files and you will know.

Here is what I do know. The total of the original Estimate for unemployment benefit plus the Supplementary Estimate for unemployment benefit came to £3,328,000 and the revised Estimate for 1957-58, as submitted to the Department of Finance, came to £3,140,000. That is to say, it was £188,000 less than the total of the original Estimate for 1956-57 and the Supplementary Estimate for 1956-57.

It has been suggested here that there has been an increase in unemployment during the period the Government has been in office and that we have not fulfilled our obligations. Let us see the sort of situation we inherited. The original Estimate for unemployment benefit, as it appeared in the Book of Estimates, 1956-57, was £1,919,000. At the end of the year, a Supplementary Estimate of £1,409,000 had to be brought in. That is to say, the original Estimate had to be increased by 70 per cent. in order to deal with the situation as it existed here when the Coalition left office in March, 1957.

Notwithstanding the fact that that trend had been manifested all the way through, the Minister sent for printing to the Department of Finance an Estimate for the year 1957-58 which was £188,000 less than the combined total of the original and Supplementary Estimates for which he was responsible. That is rather strange. For, mind you, the amount by which the claims for unemployment benefit have exceeded the amount provided for in the original Vote is £143,000. Is there not a very close correspondence between the two figures?

These figures which I have cited were my justification for saying that the need for this Supplementary Estimate did not arise out of any increase in unemployment, but arose because of the fact that one of the Estimates for which my Coalition predecessor had been responsible had underestimated the claims which would be made on the social insurance fund in respect of unemployment benefit by £143,000. The same thing happened again in respect of the contribution income of the fund. That, again, was overestimated, in this case by £500,000.

Again, let me say this. I do not want to carry this matter farther than I legitimately may. I suppose that when we are in a dark corner, many of us will incline to look on the bright side of things and will be inclined to say: "Things are so bad now that they are bound to improve and bound rapidly to improve." I will say that things have considerably improved as compared with what they were when the Estimate was prepared, as compared with what they were when our predecessors left office. However, they have not improved to the extent which Deputy Corish, when he was Minister for Social Welfare, anticipated they would improve. It is merely because his over-optimistic picture has not been realised that we have to come here and say: "We have to find another £500,000, because the contributions to the Social Insurance fund have not realised our expectations up to that amount. There is the case for the Estimate.

I am not saying anything more than necessary. So far as the increased requirement for disability benefit is concerned, no one could anticipate that we were going to have the severe epidemic which we experienced last year. I am not going to say for a moment that Deputy Corish or anyone else could have anticipated the very significant increase in the number of medical certificates issued. I am prepared to say this, that if I had been in office I think that I would not have been as over-optimistic in regard to the trend of employment or as to the amount of contribution income as Deputy Corish was. It all comes down to this in the end, that it was a failure to estimate more accurately and not an increase in unemployment claims that has made this Supplementary Estimate necessary. No one can be held very blameworthy for that in the circumstances; for none of us are prophets and none of us can foresee the future in that way. All I was concerned with, when opening this debate, was to make certain that the truth would be told to the public and that we would not have had the sort of speeches that Opposition Deputies indicated they were prepared to make if they thought they would get away with it.

Vote put and agreed to.
Top
Share