Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 Apr 1958

Vol. 167 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Industrial Credit (Amendment) Bill, 1958—Money Resolution.

Minister for Finance (Dr. Ryan)

I move:—

That for the purpose of any Act of the present session to amend and extend the Industrial Credit Act, 1933, it is expedient to authorise:—

(1) the advance out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of all moneys from time to time required by the Minister for Finance to meet sums which may become payable by him.

(a) under any guarantees given by him under such Act, and

(b) for subscription for or the purchase of shares of the Industrial Credit Company, Limited;

(2) the charge on and payment out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of the principal of and interest on any securities issued by the Minister for Finance under such Act and of the expenses incurred in connection with the issue of such securities; and

(3) the repayment to the Central Fund out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of any amount outstanding in respect of moneys advanced out of that Fund to meet sums which may become payable under any guarantee given by the Minister for Finance under such Act.

Mr. Sweetman

Is the Money Resolution necessary purely for the purpose of any subscription that there may be through the guarantee or are there any other costs?

Dr. Ryan

No, not that I am aware of at the moment.

Mr. Sweetman

Just whatever you may be asked for if you have to make good your guarantee?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

Perhaps this might be the best period to raise a matter in connection with this Bill. This Industrial Credit Company is one of the band of companies that are commonly known as State-sponsored companies. It has been a long and thorny problem in this House, and with many Governments, to devise some method by which the activities of State-sponsored companies, while giving them the freedom of detailed, administrative, day-to-day action would, at the same time, be brought in some way under the control of the Oireachtas. It is a problem on which the Minister and I could each talk at great length, but it is a problem that some time somebody will have to face, and I should like to know from the Minister what progress is being made in relation to that problem, so far as it affects this company during the past 12 months. This company is one of that band and, as such, must be considered in the general picture.

Various suggestions have been put forward. I do not propose to discuss them at this stage here to-night, but I should like to know from the Minister whether any progress has been made along the road and, if so, if he can give us an indication of the way his mind is moving.

Dr. Ryan

It is quite true, of course, as the Deputy said, that every Government has been considering this problem of whether there should be more control over these State companies, because, of course, they have not got the control, as it were, of shareholders, which public companies have outside. Even the British Government have been dealing with this point and had two committees appointed and did not get very far. I studied their difficulties also. The only thing I did was to write to the chairman of every State company and ask him for his views. Some of their views have come in; some of the chairmen said that they would send their views as soon as they would get a little time to consider the matter, and so on. I am waiting for these to come in to study them properly. I hope we will get some light from the chairmen, who have experience of these companies and who may be able to make suggestions for some sort of public inquiry or public control, as the case may be. In the case of this particular company, of course, there could not be any close investigation of the proceedings, it being a finance company. It just shows the necessity, as it were, for dealing with them in different ways. Some of the companies could be investigated somewhat as shareholders at an annual meeting would have the right to ask questions, and so on. Something of that nature might be done in time, but it is an extremely difficult problem.

Mr. Sweetman

It is a very thorny one, indeed.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolution reported and agreed to.