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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Apr 1958

Vol. 167 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £5,604,260 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 & 46 Vict., c.74; 8 Edw. 7, c.48; 1 & 2 Geo. 5, c.26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1953; No. 45 of 1926; No. 14 of 1940 (secs. 30 and 31); No. 14 of 1942 (sec. 23); No. 17 of 1951; etc.), and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The net Estimate for 1958-59 amounts to £8,840,260, being a gross total of £9,367,798, less Appropriations-in-Aid of £527,538. It does not, of course, include provision for the recently announced increase in Civil Service remuneration. The net provision represents an increase of £176,760 on that for 1957-58. As, however, the justification for the Department's existence is the services it sells to the public, expenditure is meaningless except when considered in conjunction with its revenue. Actually, the yield of postal, telegraph and telephone revenue payable to the Exchequer is estimated at £8,350,000 for 1958-59, which is an increase of £350,000 on the 1957-58 figure —an increase appreciably bigger than the increase in expenditure originally estimated for. I may also say that, on a commercial account basis, the Department has made a small profit in 1956-57 for the first time for many years—and expects to make a bigger, though still a modest one, in 1957-58.

However, I will return to the financial position later on.

Looking through the sub-heads of the Estimate, the more substantial variations—those of £10,000 or more— occur on the following:—

Sub-head A (3)—Salaries, Wages and Allowances (Provincial Offices). The decrease of £29,000 arises mainly from staff savings secured by reorganisation of the telegraph service and by revised postal arrangements.

Sub-head E (5)—Conveyance of Mails by Air. The increase of £30,000 is due to increased traffic, which, of course, is reflected in increased postal revenue.

Sub-head G (1)—Stores. The increase of £26,000 is due to a number of items which include the greater incidence of motor van replacements, increased price of petrol, smaller user for telephone development and the fact that reserve stocks are not available for drawing upon as was done last year.

Sub-head G (2)—Uniform Clothing. The increase here is £20,000. In 1957-58, reserve stocks were drawn on for part of the year's requirements; this cannot be done this year.

Sub-head I (1)—Salaries, Wages and Allowance (Engineering). Provision for new posts and normal increments are the two most significant factors in the increase of £24,000.

Sub-head K—Engineering Materials. The decrease of £33,800 is mainly due to increased telephone capital relief, partly offset by an increase of £10,000 in the provision for replacement of motor transport.

Sub-head L (2)—Contract Work. The decrease of £15,000 is mainly due to smaller expenditure on heating, lighting and telegraph equipment.

Sub-head M—Telephone Capital Repayments. Money for development of the telephone system is provided by issues from the Central Fund. These issues have to be repaid by annuities extending over periods not exceeding 25 years. This sub-head contains full provision for the annuity payments to be made, during the year. The increase from year to year—the present figure is £100,240 more than 1957-58— is a natural consequence of the expansion of the telephone system—an expansion which in its turn leads to increased revenue.

Sub-head N (1)—Superannuation Allowances, Pensions, etc. The increase of £14,500 is due mainly to an increase in the total amount of annual pensions payable.

Sub-head O (2)—Civil Aviation and Meteorological Wireless—provision and installation of equipment and operating and maintenance charges, rent, etc. The increase of £16,000 provides for the replacement of the instrument landing system at Shannon Airport and increased maintenance costs.

Sub-head T—Appropriation-in-Aid. The decrease of £18,070 in receipts is the net effect of a number of decreases and increases the biggest single item being the fall of over £20,000 in receipts for the sale of old stores, which is ascribable to a fall in the prices of non-ferrous metals.

Mail services operated satisfactorily during the past year. On the closure of part of the G.N.R. and of the Sligo, Leitrim and Northern Counties' Railway, suitable alternative arrangements were made for the conveyance of mails by road transport. The volume of letter traffic in 1957 increased slightly compared with the previous year but the fall in parcel traffic which has manifested itself in recent years continued. Exactly the same trends were noticeable in the 1957 Christmas period.

The general reorganisation of postal services in rural areas was continued. A six-day frequency of delivery and a better standard of service were provided in the head office districts of Bantry, Ennis and Naas and in parts of the Carlow, Limerick and Mallow districts. Reorganisation of the balance of the Carlow, Limerick and Mallow districts and of the final section of the Waterford district will be completed shortly. It is hoped to commence work during the current year on the remaining five districts which have yet to be reorganised.

Special postage stamps were brought out during the year to commemorate the centenaries of John Redmond, Tomás Ó Criomhthain and Admiral William Brown and the tercentenary of Father Luke Wadding. There will be two commemorative issues this year, one marking the centenary of the birth of Tom Clarke, first signatory of the Proclamation of the Irish Republic, and the other the centenary of the death of Mother Mary Aikenhead, foundress of the Irish Sisters of Charity.

Public telegraph traffic has continued to decline but at a diminishing rate. During the past 12 months, the number of telegrams handled was 2,080,000 odd, which was 47,000 or just over 2 per cent. less than the figure for the preceding 12 months.

The reorganisation of the service has progressed further. The principal change involved, namely, the replacement of morse point-to-point working by a modern teleprinter automatic switching network between the main centres, based on a telegraph automatic exchange at Dublin, is now virtually completed. The telephoning of short-distance messages directly from originating to delivery office has also been extended. The two measures have enabled a large amount of the expensive retransmission work at intermediate centres to be eliminated. The fall in the level of traffic in conjunction with the new techniques have already made it possible to reduce the operating staff by 180, or roughly by one-third, and further reduction will be effected within the coming year. In addition, the full time delivery force has been reduced by 158 or about 44 per cent.

Delivery of telegrams represents a very difficult problem in small towns and rural areas where the number of telegrams, in many cases only a few a week, does not warrant the employment of a full-time messenger. The normal alternative of delivery by casual messengers on a fee basis is not a very satisfactory system, but it is the best that can be devised without incurring exorbitant delivery costs. The question of improving the position is, however, receiving constant attention. More extended use of motorcycles at larger centres is proposed and experiments are being carried out in certain areas to determine to what extent certain kinds of non-urgent telegrams can be delivered in batches or by next post without disadvantage to sender or addressee.

The measures of reorganisation which have been effected and the increase in charges have reduced the telegraph loss substantially—from £378,000 in 1954-55 to £195,000 in 1956-57, the latest year for which audited figures are available. But the loss is still heavy and every effort will be made to reduce it still further.

The one bright spot in this picture is the telex service, which still continues to grow. During the year 28 subscribers were added to the network, bringing the total to 63, which is over four times the number with which the service started little more than two years ago. The total telex traffic during the year amounted to some 72,000 messages.

Growth of the telephone service was well maintained during 1957. Local calls at 95,750,000 and trunk calls at 14,500,000 showed increases of 4 per cent. and 5 per cent. over the corresponding figures for 1956. Almost 9,000 new subscribers' exchange lines were installed, which was little short of the previous record figure, despite storm damage in the early months of the year and the effects of capital restrictions.

As Deputies are already aware, the telephone service, in common with other services which look to the Exchequer for their capital borrowings, has had to reduce the amount of capital works that it would otherwise undertake. The best use of limited capital is being made to provide for subscribers' installation work and for necessary extensions of the exchange and trunk system.

There has been no falling off in the demand for telephones. Applications received in 1957 for new and removal telephones at 9,600-odd were greater than ever before and recent figures show no evidence of any slackening in this respect. The bulk of the increased demand is for residence telephones which, as compared with five years ago, is up by 70 per cent. over all and more than 100 per cent. outside the Dublin area. The number of waiting applicants for telephones at the end of February, 1958, was 3,400, of which 1,450 were in course of being provided with service.

In Dublin, telephones are being provided with little delay in the central city business area, apart from some isolated "pockets" of difficulty which are dealt with as they arise. Over a large part of the Dublin suburbs also, there is little delay in providing service, but there are some areas where there is difficulty in providing lines, mainly because of shortage of underground cables.

Outside Dublin, telephones are installed fairly soon after application at the larger centres where the plant position permits, but, in general, it is not practicable to deal with individual applications as they arise. In order to secure the highest rate of connection, a planned programme is in operation for clearing waiting applications on an area basis. This means that once an area has been cleared, construction staff cannot be sent to that area again for a fairly considerable time and subsequent applications, even those which do not require much work, must go on the waiting list.

Needless to say, exceptions must be made for certain priority applicants, such as doctors, but it is necessary to keep such exceptions within strict limits, if the engineers are to be allowed to proceed with their planned clearance programme without frequent diversion of staff to attend to isolated new applications. Apart from this, the general body of waiting applicants are entitled to expect that exceptional treatment will not be given to particular applications without very good reason.

Forty-one new telephone kiosks were erected in 1957 and about the same number will be provided this year.

In 1957, over 8,800 miles of trunk circuits were added to the trunk system, and at the end of the year trunk circuit mileage was some two and three-quarter times greater than it was ten years ago. During the coming 12 months over 8,000 miles of additional trunk circuits will be constructed throughout the country. The bulk of this will be obtained, not by erecting additional wires, but by fitting three, six and 12-channel carrier equipment which enables additional conversation channels to be obtained from existing wires. Returns show that over the greater part of the year some 86 per cent. of trunk calls are connected within five minutes and over 96 per cent. within 15 minutes. The remaining 4 per cent may, of course, cover much longer delays in particular cases. However, the routes on which long delays occur are known and they are receiving priority attention.

The exchange services were improved during the year by the conversion to automatic working of 12 manual exchanges, including Limerick, Sligo, Drogheda, Naas and Longford, and by the extension and/or modernisation of over 100 other exchanges. The conversion of Galway exchange which has been in hand for some time will be completed later this year. Because of capital restrictions further conversion of manual exchanges to automatic working is being limited for the present to cases where manual operation cannot be continued without undue difficulty or deterioration of the service, or where automisation will show substantial savings or other advantages.

It may be of interest to Deputies to know that the range of dialling facilities is being gradually extended. Bray, Greystones and now Naas subscribers are able to dial trunk calls themselves to Dublin subscribers; later this year, Dublin subscribers will be given the facility of dialling to subscribers at these and other exchanges outside the Dublin local fee area. The experiment whereby Athlone subscribers have been able to dial to Dublin, Cork and Waterford automatic areas themselves has worked very satisfactorily to date and the question of extending it is being considered.

Long distance dialling by Athlone subscribers has been in operation since March, 1957, and that was the first time that subscribers in any town in these islands were able to dial over such a distance. I mention that as an illustration of the point that while we must naturally draw heavily on the experience and experiment of other bigger and wealthier countries in determining what we can do in the telephone service, we need not necessarily lag far behind them in putting new techniques into operation; as in this case we may even be in front of some of them.

While the extension of trunk dialling on a national scale is something we can only plan for at this stage, it is important that the planning should be on the right lines. The Department has accordingly availed of the facilities offered by the United Nations' Technical Assistance Scheme to secure the services of a foreign expert for a limited period and I am glad to say that a distinguished engineer from the Netherlands' Post Office is now in Dublin working with and advising my engineering staff on the problems involved in the eventual conversion of our whole local and trunk telephone system to automatic working. The technical assistance scheme has also been availed of to send two of our own engineers abroad to study this and certain other specialised branches of telecommunications.

Post Office Savings Bank deposits during 1957 amounted to £15,143,000, a decrease of £149,000 on 1956; withdrawals amounted to £14,513,000, a decrease of £178,000. Estimating the interest for the year at £1,828,000, the total balance due to depositors at 31st December, 1957, was £76,000,000 approximately as compared with £73,500,000 at 31st December, 1956.

Deposits by Trustee Savings Banks during the year amounted to £604,000, a decrease of £169,000, and withdrawals amounted to £586,000, a decrease of £104,000. The balance to credit of the banks, including interest, at the end of the year was approximately £11,750,000. Appreciable withdrawals were made from the Post Office Savings Bank and by the Trustee Savings Banks for reinvestment in the National Loan, Savings Certificates and Prize Bonds.

Actual sales of Savings Certificates in 1957 at £3,244,000 were £920,000 down on last year's record but still were higher than in any other year. Repayments of principal and interest totalling £2,663,000 were £289,000 less than the previous year's total of £2,952,000. The amount of principal due to Savings Certificate holders at the end of the year was £21,792,000. At the instance of the Savings Committee, a new inducement to save was introduced on 2nd December last in the form of Savings Gift Tokens. Issued in denominations of £1 and 10/- and incorporating a greeting in the design, these tokens are valid for deposit in the Post Office Savings Bank or for the purchase of Savings Certificates; they are not exchangeable for cash. Sales of these tokens during December amounted to close on £2,000. This is a reasonably good response to something new that will naturally take some time to become established with the public as a new method of gift giving.

The only significant addition to the long list of other services given by the Department was the sale of Prize Bonds. Our post offices throughout the country played a big part in this, being responsible for just under 35 per cent. of the total of the three Prize Bond issues to date. As a whole, there was little change in the other services though the increased popularity of newspaper competitions was responsible for a large jump in the number, though not the value, of postal orders issued. A melancholy factor is the unabated decline in the number of dog licences sold. This decline has marched step by step with a rise in the number of wireless licences. Perhaps it is cause and effect.

Last year, new post offices were provided at Athenry and Cootehill and the reconstruction of Kilkenny Post Office was completed. Work is in progress on the erection of new post office and telephone exchange buildings at Galway and Letterkenny and on automatic telephone exchange buildings at Dundrum, Stillorgan Road (Dublin) and Skerries. Reconstruction or improvement works are in progress at Loughrea, Castlebar, Nenagh and Donegal Post Offices.

During the coming year, it is expected that work will commence on new post offices and telephone exchanges at Droichead Nua and Youghal, new telephone exchange buildings at Ennis, Cork City, Kinsale, Midleton and Walkinstown and new district sorting offices at Crumlin and Churchtown.

Progress has been made in considering the proposals for the new central sorting office at Dublin and the way is now clear for the preparation of the contract drawings by the Office of Public Works.

The number of staff specifically provided for in the Estimate, 16,064, shows a reduction of 363 on the number for the previous year. As against this, a lump sum provision has been made under sub-head I (1) to cover the employment of additional men on telephone development work. It can be taken, however, that the net reduction in staff employed will be over 200. The reduction is mainly in the postman, post office clerk and telephonist grades and is due to the telegraph reorganisation and revised postal arrangements.

The departmental council set up under the Civil Service Conciliation and Arbitration scheme continues to do much useful work in fostering good relations between the Department and the staff. During the year, the council dealt with a variety of subjects including up-grading claims, the launching of a new staff suggestions scheme and the treatment of redundancy arising from the telegraph reorganisation and the closing of railway telegraph offices. Of 11 subjects on which discussions were completed, agreement was reached on eight and part agreement on one.

The staff suggestions scheme is open to all members of the staff and replaces an older scheme which was confined to the engineering and stores branch grades. Under the new scheme, awards may be made to members of the staff for suggestions related to the improvement of organisation or methods of work. The response to the scheme has been encouraging and to date a total of 352 suggestions have been received. Of these 70 have already qualified for award and 155 are still being examined.

Working methods and organisation in the Department are under continuous review with the object of increasing efficiency and reducing costs. To take one instance, the telephone accounts sections are now run on a mechanised system, the particular arrangements adopted having been decided upon after careful trials of a number of alternatives. We are able to prepare accounts more speedily under the new system; in addition it has given us staff savings of the order of £20,000 a year. In another sphere new arrangements for registration and filing of documents in the secretariat have effected considerable savings in accommodation and furniture.

As I mentioned earlier, the Department's working during 1956-7 resulted in a small profit—£30,891, to be exact. This is appreciably better than the forecast given by the then Minister when the Estimate was being discussed last year; in point of fact, that forecast underestimated the amount of postal revenue we would receive. However, it is pardonable to err on the right side. For the year just ended, we expect to make a somewhat bigger profit, but it will be some time before a firm figure is available.

The circumstance that a profit has been made in each of the last two years, even though modest in comparison with the size of our operations, stands out as a happy contrast to the rather dismal picture of the losses incurred in each of the previous nine years from 1947-8 to 1955-6. For that transformation, all my predecessors are to be congratulated. The balancing of the Department's accounts has been one matter on which successive Governments have seen eye to eye; all have taken the line that the money to pay for the running of the Department must come from those who use its services and not from the taxpayer.

Notwithstanding the increases in costs that we have had to contend with, our charges are reasonable by contrast with other European countries and our standards of service can stand similar comparisons. Two factors which have helped us in maintaining charges at a lower level than might have been otherwise possible are the steady increase in postal and telephone traffic and the unremitting efforts to find more efficient ways of doing things in all branches of the Department.

The recent increase in Civil Service pay has, however, introduced a new factor into the situation. I have not yet had time to study the position closely; but it seems clear that there is not enough margin in the present profit level to absorb the extra expenditure. That being so, ways and means of redressing the balance in the accounts must be found, since, as I have said already, no Government could accept the idea of asking the taxpayer to subsidise the Post Office. Since I have not had an opportunity to go into all the factors involved, the most I can say, at this stage, is that the situation caused by the recent increase in costs must receive most serious consideration.

To conclude, I should like to express my appreciation of the zealous and efficient service given by all grades of staff during the past year.

I should like, on this occasion, just as on the last occasion when we were discussing wireless broadcasting, to congratulate the acting-Minister on his very clear statement on the work of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. As some Deputies stated to-day, there is a big contrast between the way he, as acting-Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, produced his Estimate and gave all the details as far as he possibly could, so that Deputies would clearly understand the position, and that of another Minister. In fact, the Minister has given such detail that, so far as I am concerned, and I am sure so far as other members of this House are concerned, there is very little to be said.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs is certainly decentralised. Its impact is felt throughout the whole country, even in the very remotest areas, because there you have the post offices, the sub-post offices, the postmen, established and unestablished. It is the one service which the people of this country like very much and against which they can have scarcely any grievance. Especially is that so since the daily delivery of mails was brought into operation. I believe that in all areas—with, perhaps, very few exceptions—that service is now being given by the Post Office. The people living in rural areas receive the postman with open arms, except perhaps when he brings had news about a bill they owe. He brings the news from their children and their friends and also a great deal of local gossip, if he has the time. For that reason, the Post Office has done very well in introducing the daily delivery of letters.

In spite of all that extra work, no extra postmen have been appointed, but those already in the service got more work to do and have longer hours and, therefore, their pay was increased. That gave them more or less a living wage. In spite of all the increased services, there is a profit, as the Minister says, of £30,891. Great credit is due to the Department over the past ten years. All the past Ministers continued to improve the mail delivery service. After all, it is only right that persons who live in remote areas, in pockets among the mountains, principally in the South and West, should have their mails delivered to them each day.

I suggest that an extension of the telephone service in rural areas is very desirable, for remote glens among the mountains. There are many of those in my constituency and if a priest or doctor is urgently required it is necessary to travel—walk, cycle or hire a motor-car—to the nearest post office. Telephone services have been introduced in many of those remote areas and I am sure it must cost a good deal.

There is one area in my constituency, adjacent to the famous Gap of Dunloe, where there is a valley and the nearest post office in either direction is about 12 miles away. The local people must travel, year in and year out, over very difficult and very high roads, to get to the post office or to contact the priest, the doctor, or whomsoever they require. The Board of Works and An Bord Fáilte have in the past nine or ten years requested the Department to set up a telephone service there, in a house called the Toll House. It is central, in a large valley or glen at the head of the upper lake, where the tourists leave the ponies and take the boat to go back to Killarney. Tourists have expressed surprise that such a service is not available.

It would be costly to provide it, but the number of tourists who would make use of it and the benefit it would confer on those living in that vast mountain valley would make it pay eventually. So far as I know, it is the only place in my area which requires such a service. In other areas, perhaps not so remote or not so costly, telephone provision has been made.

The Minister spoke of the setting up of a scheme of conciliation and arbitration. That, of course, is beneficial. There is one section of postmen to which I should refer, the auxiliary postmen. They are, in official language, "unestablished"; and when they reach pension age, they leave the service without a gratuity or pension of any kind, so that a postman who has given faithful and efficient service for 40 or 50 years finds his position much disimproved when he retires. During his period of active service, his wages were very low—and they are still too low. If any servants of Government Departments deserve to be treated well, they are our postmen, whether they are city, town or rural. I speak especially on behalf of the rural postmen.

I do not know if it would be fair to speak of the type of uniform used by postmen. It may be comfortable, but somehow I have always thought it is not the right type. Perhaps some steps could be taken to improve, not only the material of the garments, but also the colour. I do not suggest they should be dressed in green.

Donegal homespun.

That would not be distinctive enough. I come now to the pay and emoluments of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. They have to perform manifold duties. They deal with the distribution of the mails, their reception in the morning, distribution to the postmen for the various areas, the mails coming back and so on. They have to deal with the public during the whole of a long day. They have to deal with people coming for dog licences. I notice in the Minister's statement that that number has declined, although I would say there are more dogs in the country now than ever before. They have to deal with radio licences, telegrams and telephones. They have very long hours and many peculiar duties to perform. They work from 8 or 8.30 in the morning, sometimes to as late as 6 o'clock in the evening.

We have heard at various times that the salary they get—if it could be called a salary—is very meagre. It has been put forward that such people will have some other sideline because there will be a shop attached to a local post office; but so far as I can see, these people are so busy that they cannot do that because they could not attend to the shop side of it and it would not pay them to hire an assistant. Post office staff, especially those to whom I have referred, auxiliary postmen and established postmen, too, and sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, deserve an increase in their remuneration. In fact, it is rather unfortunate sometimes that one reads of postmen getting into trouble. I must say, however, that it is only a very small percentage who do get into trouble and it is perhaps very hard to blame them in some cases when they may have big family responsibilities and may be tempted to do something wrong.

I would not, of course, have any pity for a postman who does something wrong because of gambling or drinking, but for people in Government Departments, and especially those in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, who are scattered all over the country in the cities, towns and the remotest rural areas, who are working efficiently and to the satisfaction of all sections of the people, provision should be made for an increase in pay as soon as possible when the financial stringency has passed away.

In conclusion, I should like to pay a tribute to the courtesy which people have always received from sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and their staffs and from postmasters and postmistresses, too, as well as those who deliver the mails, telegrams and everything connected with the service. Even when the staffs are very busy, the people have received nothing but the greatest courtesy from the staff of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

At the outset, I should like to say that I deeply regret the fact that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has been stricken with illness so soon after his appointment to the position. I should like to express to him my very sincere sympathy on the trial through which he is passing and I ask the acting-Minister to convey that expression of my sympathy to him. I am sure the whole House will regret that this new and promising Minister has been afflicted with a disability which has temporarily rendered him unable to discharge his official duties. We all wish him well and hope that he will soon be back again.

I was intrigued by a sentence or two on Page 12 of the Minister's speech, as circulated. I should like to find out from the acting-Minister what is intended by this comment. It is certainly beyond me. The statement reads:—

"A melancholy factor is the unabated decline in the number of dog licences sold. This decline has marched step by step with a rise in the number of wireless licences. Perhaps it is cause and effect."

How anybody came to associate dog licences with wireless licences, I do not know. I do not know whether it is a regret that the revenue from dog licences has shown a decline, or whether it is a comparison between the music of dogs and the music of our national radio service, but surely it has some meaning. I should like the Minister to tell us what economics it is sought to demonstrate.

There are a lot of records now of singing dogs, which we hear on the radio. Perhaps that is the connection.

Is that what is intended?

I do not know.

It baffles me and I thought it would baffle the acting-Minister. To turn to the Estimate proper, I must congratulate the Minister and the Department on the surplus on the year's working, that is, the year 1956-57. I should like to bracket with that observation congratulations to the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Mr. Keyes, in whose control the Department of Posts and Telegraphs was during that period. Last year, the then Minister prophesied that there would be a deficit on the year's working, that is, on the year 1956-57, of £146,000. That gloomy prognostication has happily been falsified by the facts, because, instead of a deficit of £146,000 on the account of that year, the Minister is able to announce that in fact there was a surplus of £30,000 that year. The estimate of the deficit therefore was, in fact, out by something less than £180,000, comparing the accounts to-day with what it was believed the accounts would contain when that prophecy was made last year. That is a very satisfactory position, especially in view of the continued development of the Department's services and the constant expansion of existing services so as to provide the public with a still better service of tele-communications.

The Minister in his speech refers to the growing efficiency of the Post Office services. I have been in many countries over a long period of years and I can say that, for size and population, the tele-communication service of this country in general compares very favourably, and the charges in many instances more than favourably, with the services and charges in other countries throughout the world. It is true that we cannot provide the mammoth services of highly industrialised countries, but if you get down to a minute comparison of our services and charges with the services and charges of any country that could be regarded as being reasonably comparable with us, the comparison will not be to our disadvantage and in a great many cases will be to our advantage.

In that respect, I think, notably, the telephone services stand out as a brilliant example of development, particularly in recent years. We have now a phone service of which all citizens are entitled to feel proud. It is true that you may get the occasional person who complains about getting a wrong number, never considering whether he may have contributed something to that result by not asking for the right number or by dialling a number other than the one he intended to dial.

When one has regard to the millions of trunk calls that go through, the millions and millions of local calls accurately made every minute of the day, I think it is cause for congratulation that we have developed a telephone service of which the country can really feel pround. The fact that in recent years the speed of answering for trunk calls has improved out of all recognition, compared with 15 or 20 years ago, is another reason for congratulation. Generally speaking, the Post Office, which is usually a modest and shy Department, so far as its achievements are concerned, is entitled to feel proud not merely of what it has been able to do as regards post office services generally but of what it has been able to do in a particular way in developing the telephone service.

I was glad to hear the Minister say, on page 13 of his speech, that the Civil Service Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme continues to do useful work in fostering good relations between the Department and the staff, and that during the year a variety of subjects were discussed through the medium of that machinery; that agreement was reached on eight of the 11 subjects so discussed and that part agreement was reached on one subject. That is a commendable record and there is no doubt whatever that a continuance of that kind of relationship is bound in the long run, not merely to improve the conditions for the staff, but to engender a new spirit of cooperation and understanding and an appreciation of the need for promoting the greatest possible measure of efficiency in the service, paralleled by the promoting of the greatest possible measure of contentment among the staff.

I think the conciliation and arbitration scheme has wrought a magnificent change in the relationship between the Department and the staff. Consultation has now been substituted for conflict, suspicion and misunderstanding and I hope, so far as the Department is concerned, it will play its part in ensuring there will be a continuance of that general atmosphere and that desirable climate for the continued operation of the conciliation and arbitration machinery.

On this Estimate last year, I raised the question of redundancy in the Post Office clerk grade in consequence of telegraph reorganisation brought about by the virtual abolition of morse work, particularly in the Central Telegraph Office and by the substantial fall in telegraph traffic. I understand that the problem of redundancy has been dealt with to some extent during the year, in the Central Telegraph Office, but that there is still a redundancy of staff in that office, the disposal of which presents a problem to the Department, on the one hand, and to the staff on the other. The staff feel they may be uprooted and transferred elsewhere to their own disadvantage. I understand the redundancy problem is represented by in or about 30 redundant officers, that is, officers who are not normally required on the establishment, but who, of course, continue to work from day to day because other officers have been switched elsewhere to take up the sag in the redundancy.

I put it to the Minister last year, and I want to repeat the suggestion this year, that it should be possible in the entire Civil Service to absorb the 30 redundant officers, not necessarily the redundant officers in person, but it should be possible to lift 30 officers out of the Central Telegraph Office and place them in some of the other Government Departments. By spreading them over all Government Departments, no Department would be asked to take a large number of them, although, of course, they are all very efficient officers, but they need not impact seriously on the staffing of other Departments. If that were done, the redundancy problem would be brought to a happy conclusion from the point of view of the Department, and I am sure the staff would welcome a solution of the problem along these lines which would cause a minimum of disturbance, so far as they are concerned. I should like to know whether that aspect of the matter is being examined, as the Minister promised it would be, during the year and, if so, has the Minister any hope of finding a solution to the problem along these reasonable lines?

The question of the provision of post office buildings was referred to in the Minister's speech on page 12, where he refers to the fact that progress has been made in considering proposals for the central sorting office in Dublin and added that the way is now clear for the preparation of contract drawings by the Office of Public Works. Anything that moves in the direction of eliminating the present distillery-cum-sorting office in Dublin is to be commended and, I take it, this statement by the Minister is an indication that some progress has been made during the year.

I should like to ask the Minister if he could say how long, approximately, it will be before the drawings have been prepared by the Board of Works and when it is expected it will be possible to invite tenders for the erection of the buildings on the new site in Dublin? This is a matter which has been discussed here over the past 30 years or more, and I do not want to go into further details now, but I hope the Minister will give us some target dates and that he may be able to say when it is likely the contract drawings will be completed, so that tenders can be invited for the work. Even if some of us do not live to see the erection of the new sorting office, at least we shall be able to leave this earth with a timetable indicating when it would be completed, if we had lived long enough to see it.

On the question of Post Office buildings generally, the Minister referred to the fact that some new buildings were erected during the year and that others were renovated, that others had some structural alterations carried out to them. All that is commendable, but as the Minister must know—certainly his Department would know—there are many offices throughout the country which are utterly unsuitable for use as modern post offices. They provide inadequate space for the public and inadequate accommodation for the staff to discharge their onerous and exacting duties. There is a big back-log of reconstruction and renovation work to be undertaken and I am afraid that at the rate at which work is progressing, the new problems in respect of buildings will supervene on those which are already there.

I do not know whether the Post Office has worked out any plan whereby they hope, within a period of years, to overtake arrears of work in this respect or whether they are working to any time-table which would indicate that we can see the end of the problem within an ascertainable period of years. Perhaps in that connection the Minister would give us some information as to what the Department's policy is and when it is likely that this matter of providing adequate premises will be dealt with in a planned and systematic way?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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