On that Vote for international co-operation I have some observations to offer——
Committee on Finance. - Vóta 60—Comhar Eadarnáisiúnta (d'atógaint).
Díospóireacht ar an dtairiscint seo leanas d'atogaint:—
Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £59,970 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith imoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1959, chun ranníoc do Chomhairle na hEorpa agus don Eagras um Chomhar Eacnamaíochta san Eoraip agus do na Náisiúin Aontaithe; agus chun costas eile ina dtaobh sin.—(Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha.)
Both Votes were taken together and discussed together on External Affairs.
I understand not, Sir. No special agreement was entered into for the discussion on External Affairs and when the second Vote was called I opened my observations and drew the attention of the Chair to the fact that it was after 10.30. On that Vote I now want to make some observations——
On a point of Order, the House agreed that two Votes would be taken and discussed together. Last night the Leas-Cheann Comhairle put the Votes. There was disagreement and the Vote was called. Deputy Dillon objected to the Vote being taken. He called a division and then it was found it was too late to take a division as it was after 10.30.
May I make a submission? The item appears on the Order Paper to-day as item 60, International Co-operation (Resumed). I deny there was any intention to dispose of these two Votes in the one debate and I want to address the House on Vote 60 and with your leave, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to do so, and I do not know why I should not be allowed to do so.
International Co-operation was discussed with the Vote for External Affairs and no objection was taken.
There was no formal agreement that these two Estimates would be taken together. It is true that the discussion took place on the two Estimates but there was no formal agreement to take the two together and I submit we are now entitled to speak on the Estimate down on the Order Paper to-day.
There was no objection taken——
No request was made to have those Votes taken together and there was no motion moved for that purpose in the House.
The fact that the two Votes were discussed together and that no objection was taken clearly indicates that the House understood the two were being taken together.
On a point of order—at the beginning of my speech I said this:—
"Do réir an ghnáis a leanadh sna blianta roimhe seo, tá rún agam, le cead an Chinn Chomhairle, an Meastachán i leith Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus an Meastachán i leith Comhair Eadarnáisiúnta a thógáil le chéile."
Níor chur éinne ina choinne.
May I submit that no Minister has the right to get up and make a bland observation that he proposes to deal with those two Votes together unless somebody protests loudly——
With the permission of the Chair.
I do not mind what the Minister said. I am only concerned with what the House decides. The Minister has the idea that he can run this House and everybody in it. No Minister has the right to presume that. It is normal if the Minister asks the House to agree that two Estimates be taken together and it is sometimes allowed to be done but I really submit that if the Minister says: "I am going to take two Estimates together" and nobody objects that is not a binding decision of the House.
I am not assuming that because the Minister said the two Votes should be taken together they should be so taken but no objection was raised and in fact the two were discussed together. Further, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle putting the motion——
Surely he had no right as it was after 10.30?
It is quite common practice for a Minister to address the House on his main Estimate and have the other Estimates called one after the other and very frequently a very short debate takes place on one of the minor Estimates. I opened the debate last night by saying "No, no, no" and that concluded the proceedings. I now want to resume——
On a point of order——
Wait now; I am making a point of order. Stay sitting down now. The Minister manifestly thinks he has a right to trample on the House if he wants to, but I am claiming the right of debate in the House, no more than that, and I confidently look to you, a Cheann Comhairle, to keep the Minister in his place so that he will submit to the ordinary ordeal that every Minister has to submit to, and that is free debate in this House even when the Minister does not like it.
In the course of my opening remarks on the External Affairs Estimates I first of all moved the motion for the Vote on External Affairs and then I moved the Vote for International Co-operation. I moved both motions. At the conclusion of the debate, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle called on the Minister to conclude. I concluded, and when I had concluded the Leas-Cheann Comhairle put the motion——
Which motion?
He put the first motion for External Affairs. It was agreed.
We can only have one motion before the House at any time.
The second Vote, which was International Co-operation, was put, and Deputy Dillon called a division. Then, when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was proceeding to call the division, Deputy Dillon drew attention to the fact that it was half-past ten and that no division could be taken.
There cannot be two motions before the House at any one time. The Minister should know that the normal procedure is to move one motion, and, when that has been dealt with, to move formally the second motion.
I moved the second motion in the middle of my speech.
You cannot move the second motion until the first one has been disposed of.
We will leave it to the Ceann Comhairle to decide.
On the clear evidence before me that both Estimates were before the House, that the discussion was opened on both Estimates, that the discussion was closed, and that the Vote for International Co-operation was being put from the Chair, I am ruling that the discussion on the Estimate for International Co-operation is closed. I am putting the Vote now.
Vote put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 33.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Blaney, Neal T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Kevin.
- Booth, Lionel.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Browne, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Clohessy, Patrick.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cotter, Edward.
- Crowley, Honor M.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Mick.
- de Valera, Eamon.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Egan, Kieran P.
- Fanning, John.
- Faulkner, Padraig.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Galvin, John.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Griffin, James.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Loughman, Frank.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Medlar, Martin.
- Moher, John W.
- Moran, Michael.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Malley, Donogh.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
Níl
- Barry, Richard.
- Belton, Jack.
- Byrne, Tom.
- Carew, John.
- Casey, Seán.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan D.
- Costello, John A.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Dillon, James M.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kenny, Henry.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Larkin, Denis.
- Lindsay, Patrick.
- Lynch, Thaddeus.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Manley, Timothy.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Murphy, William.
- Norton, William.
- O'Donnell, Patrick.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Sullivan, Denis J.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Russell, George E.
- Sherwin, Frank.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tierney, Patrick.
- Wycherley, Florence.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Mrs. Lynch; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Kyne.
Vote declared carried.
You will be very sorry for last night's behaviour of the Minister for External Affairs. You will find a different approach to facilities after last night.