Baineann Vóta a 8 le costas riaracháin agus baineann Vóta a 9 leis na h-Oibreacha atá mar chúram ar Coimisinéirí na hOibreacha Poiblí. Mar gheall ar an dlúth-cheangal seo eatorra, is iondual go dtógtar le chéile iad chun chríoch díospóireachta ar na Meastacháin ina leith.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Office of Public Works.
Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That a sum not exceeding £267,440 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works (1 & 2 Will. 4, c.33, Secs. 5 and 6; 5 & 6 Vict., c.89, Secs. 1 and 2; 9 & 10 Vict., c.86, Secs. 2, 7 and 9; etc.).—(Minister for Defence).
On a point of order, I want to know if this is a new procedure, or a departure from a former procedure, in this House that these Votes will be taken and dealt with through the medium of Irish? This is the first occasion on which we have had this procedure in this House.
The official language is either Irish or English.
It has always been my practice. This is the first time it has been questioned. I have done it both in Irish and in English every year in relation to Fisheries. Deputy McQuillan did not question it on those occasions. I am pursuing the same method now.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary intend to follow it up in English?
Yes. There is only half a page of Irish.
I have told Deputy McQuillan I used both Irish and English any time I introduced a Vote in this House. I am doing the same thing now. The Deputy was in the House on other occasions and he did not object.
I am not familiar with that part of the Parliamentary Secretary's argument.
The Deputy's memory is at fault. Níl tagairt faoi léith ag teastáil ó uimhir a h-ocht.
Oibreacha poiblí de gach uile shórt a thaganns faoi Vóta a 9. An méad is mó, faoi mar beifí ag súil leis, baineann sé le tithe nua scoile a dhéanamh. Sé siltin airtéireach ceann de na h-abhair chaiteachais is mó ina dhiaidh sin. Táthar ag súil go mbéifear i ndon clár oibre staidearach a leagadh amach nach gcuirfidh an iomarca stróimh ar eagraíocht nó ar airgeadas na seirbhíse seo. Is tré mhódh oibre den tsaghas seo a b'fhearr a ba féidir dlús a chur leis an obair seo gan dochar a dhéanamh dá fiúntacht.
I shall give the Deputy the English now.
I propose to follow the practice of previous years by taking Votes 8 and 9 together.
Vote 8 bears the salaries and expenses of the administrative executive and technical staffs of the Office of Public Works, which is the office responsible for the administration of Vote 9.
Vote 9 provides the necessary funds for the purchase of sites and buildings for State purposes; for the erection, maintenance and furnishing of Government offices and other State-owned premises; for the erection and improvement of national schools; for the erection of major military buildings; for arterial drainage and other engineering works; for the maintenance of State-owned parks and State harbours and for a number of other activities.
There is an increase of £29,340 in the Estimate for the Office of Public Works compared with the sum voted for 1957-58. This is mainly due to increases of £24,720 in the provision for salaries, wages and allowances and £4,300 in the provision for travelling expenses. The salaries increase is due to an increase of £19,720 in the gross provision for sub-head A and a reduction of £5,000 in the credit which is taken in respect of probable vacancies during the year. Provision is made for additional engineering staff in the drainage division for preliminary investigation in connection with the River Shannon flood problem and there is also provision for additional professional staff for valuation work in connection with arterial drainage.
The increase of £4,300 in the provision for travelling expenses covers increased rates of subsistence as well as the requirements of the River Shannon preliminary investigations and of an increased programme of arterial drainage surveys.
Sub-heads C—Incidental Expenses— and D—Telegrams, Telephones and Postage—show increases of £120 and £500 respectively, corresponding with current expenditure trends.
An increase of £300 in estimated receipts under sub-head E—Appropriations-in-Aid—is the net result of a number of variations in the amounts of the items making up this sub-head. The details are shown on page 37 of the Estimates Volume.
In regard to Vote 9, the Estimate of £3,562,000 for Public Works and Buildings shows a net decrease of £204,200 on the Estimate for 1957-58. This is due to a decrease of £154,234 in estimated expenditure and an additional £49,966 expected to be realised as Appropriations-in-Aid. Under the expenditure sub-heads the largest individual decrease, £161,200, is in the provision for sub-head B—New Works, Alterations and Additions. The decreases under other sub-heads which amount to £66,160 are chiefly in the provisions for purchase of sites and buildings, maintenance, furniture and fuel. Increases amount to £73,126, of which £55,800 is accounted for by the increased provisions for purchase and maintenance of engineering plant and machinery and for arterial drainage surveys, construction works and maintenance.
In their order of sub-heading, the variations from the sums voted last year are as follows:—
Sub-head A—Purchase of Sites and Buildings—shows a reduction of £33,000, as no exceptional accommodation requirements for representatives abroad have to be met this year.
Under sub-head B—New Works, Alterations and Additions—there is a net decrease of £161,200. As an analysis of the bulk provisions for Departments, shown in the printed Volume, is given in the statement which has been circulated to Deputies, it is scarcely necessary for me at this stage to refer to any of the details.
The repeat provision of £6,000 under sub-head BB—Coast Protection—is for the continuance of the survey and experimental works in connection with the coast erosion problem at Rosslare Strand, County Wexford.
Sub-head C—Maintenance and Supplies. The decrease of £20,000 is based on expenditure trends.
Sub-head D (1)—Furniture, Fittings and Utensils—The decrease of £5,000 is due to the absence of exceptional furnishing proposals for accommodation abroad. The provision for sub-head D (2) for the Central Furniture Stores is unchanged.
The provision for sub-head E—Rents, Rates, etc.—is reduced by £2,000 due mainly to the surrender of accommodation no longer required.
Sub-head F—Fuel, Light, Water, Cleaning, etc.—shows a reduction of £5,000 as fuel and haulage price increases provided for in last year's Estimate have not been fully realised.
The provisions under the minor subheads G, H (1) and I scarcely call for any comment.
The provision of £8,000 under sub-head H (2)—River Shannon Navigation (Grant-in-Aid)—is required to make good an anticipated deficit in the Shannon Navigation Fund Account due to a continued downward trend in traffic receipts coupled with increased maintenance requirements which cannot be deferred.
An additional outlay of £3,800 is provided for under sub-head J (1) for Arterial Drainage Surveys. Of this sum, £2,500 is for the preliminary engineering investigations in connection with the River Shannon flood problem. Provision is also made for an expanded programme of field work on other surveys.
The provision for sub-head J (2)— Arterial Drainage—Construction Works —amounts to £405,000 which is £5,000 more than the sum voted last year. The completion of the Glyde and Dee drainage scheme and the impending completion of the Feale scheme have admitted of a reduction of £21,000 in all on last year's provision for these works. A separate general provision of £5,000 is made to meet outstanding liabilities on completed schemes, the provision for which last year was £1,000. The provisions for the work in progress on the Corrib-Clare and Nenagh schemes are about the same as last year. Work on the River Maine catchment drainage scheme which has been exhibited is expected to be put in hand this year, and provision is made for an estimated expenditure of £40,000 thereon. Work may also be commenced within the year on some minor catchment schemes and a general provision of £12,000 has been included to meet probable expenditure on these.
The provision of £33,000 under sub-head J (5)—Arterial Drainage—Maintenance—is £11,000 more than last year's provision, the reason being that the Glyde and Dee scheme was under maintenance during a portion of last year only. Expenditure under this sub-head is recoverable from the county councils concerned.
The increase of £36,000 under sub-head K—Purchase and Maintenance of Engineering Plant and Machinery, and Stores—results from an increase amounting to £58,000 in the provision for purchase of engineering plant and machinery, offset by a reduction in the provision for workshop plant and equipment and by closer estimation of the amount required for the wages of the existing workshop staff. The increased provision is mainly for necessary replacements of old and obsolete excavating machines and worn-out transport vehicles.
The provision of £13,326 under sub-head L—Losses (Workmen's Compensation Insurance)—is to cover expenditure incurred in pior years on compensation, etc., in respect of claims arising out of accident risks which had been covered by policies of insurance but which had not been settled when the insurers went into liquidation in 1938. The expenditure involved was debited to suspense accounts pending recovery from the official liquidator. The winding up proceedings, which were very protracted, were concluded last year when a payment of £6,795 was received as dividend on the claim admitted by the court. After deduction of this dividend, less legal expenses, from the expenditure debited to the suspense accounts the sum of £13,326 is required to clear these accounts.
Under sub-head M—Appropriations-in-Aid—additional receipts under a number of heads give a total increase of £49,966 for the sub-head. The bulk of the additional receipts is in respect of the hire of plant and the recoupment by county councils of drainage maintenance costs.
Leis sin fágaim faoi bhráid na Dála cúntas alos na bliana atá caite, agus meastachán sheirbhíse i gcomhair na bliana atá amach romhainn.
Meabhraíodh dom agus mé ghá rá go mbíonn ar gach duine cúntas thar na cúntais a tabhairt uaidh, agus go bhfuil sé sin tugtha le deireannas ag beirt a bhí i láthair na Dála ar an ócáid seo anuraidh.
Tagraim do Phádhraic Ó Beacháin, Rúnaí Párlaiminte an Aire Airgeadais go bhfuilimse anois i mo chomharba air, a fuair bás tús na Feabhra, agus do Dhiarmuid Ó h-Éigceartaigh iarChathaoirleach na gCoimisinéirí Oibreachaí Poiblí a d'éag an mhí seo chaite.
Ba bheirt iad a shaothraigh a dtír dhúchais go dian dícheallach duthrachtach ar uair na gníomhaíochta agus na h-íodhbairte, agus a choinnigh orra ag tabhairt seirbhíse dí go dtí an deire.
Solus na bhFlaitheas agus suaimhneas síorraí dá n-anam!
I move:
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.
First and foremost, I join with the Parliamentary Secretary in his expression of sympathy in the loss occasioned by the death of the late Parliamentary Secretary. I met the late Paddy Beegan in the early days of public life in this country, back in 1920 and 1921. Later on, in 1953 and 1954, he was my successor as Parliamentary Secretary, and last year he also succeeded me. I never met a more decent, honourable or honest man in public or private life. To me personally he was a great friend. In former days we agreed politically and later on disagreed politically; but the late Paddy Beegan, God rest his soul, was a man with whom one could always disagree without incurring his enmity. He saw the other man's point of view. As a member on the Opposition side of the House, I would like to pay him that little tribute. I am quite sure that on all sides of the House his word was respected; whether one was a friend of foe he would never let one down. He was a good comrade.
Before I pass on to the Estimate proper, there is another event which happened within the last 12 months to which I should like to refer with your permission, Sir. I had hoped that to-day I would be paying tribute to the outgoing chairman, Mr. Diarmuid Ó hEigeartuigh. Knowing him as I did as chairman of the Commissioners of Public Works for six and a half years, I had hoped that I would have an opportunity of paying him a tribute and wishing him many happy days in his retirement. Regrettably, I shall not have that opportunity now as he has passed to his reward. Without doubt, Diarmuid Ó hEigeartuigh will be remembered as one of the greatest men this country ever produced. One might say that he lived for the country and that he died for it as well. Monuments have rightly been raised to people who died for the country, but it can be said that Diarmuid Ó hEigeartuigh both lived for it and died for it.
As Parliamentary Secretary, I knew Diarmuid Ó hEigeartuigh first as Commissioner of Public Works and later as chairman and I can certainly say that he was esteemed by every official of that Department from the most junior to the most senior. He worked hard in the Department but to my mind he was not a civil servant in the ordinary sense at all. He was one of the few people who knew rural Ireland and who loved it. He saw it as very few people see it to-day and he worked for it in every direction. Diarmuid Ó hEigeartuigh entered the Civil Service as early as the year 1910 and he was one of the gallant few then who went out in 1916 and fought for the freedom of his country.
He was one of many who later on were dismissed. He held a unique honour in that he was Secretary of the first Dáil Cabinet. He was one of the men who had close associations with, and who from 1916 onwards fought with, General Michael Collins. As I said, he was the first Secretary of the Executive Council of this country. For roughly six and a half years I was closely associated with him, as Parliamentary Secretary, and all I can say is that, regardless of politics, if there was anything that Diarmuid Ó hEigeartuigh could do for the people of this country he never hesitated to do it. May the earth he loved so well lie lightly on him.
Again, Sir, may I add the comment that I am delighted that Commissioner Fagan has been appointed chairman. I would like to congratulate him on his promotion. I have known him for years and I have no doubt that he will fill that position efficiently and with distinction. I hope he will be as happy there and will get the same co-operation as his predecessor did and that he will be held in the same esteem by every official in the Board of Works as Diarmuid Ó hEigeartuigh was. I wish him every luck.
Coming to the Vote itself I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for giving me a copy of his speech. It is very hard to blame the Parliamentary Secretary and no one knows that more than I do. The Parliamentary Secretary just takes the kicks. He must take them—I know that because for years on the other side I had to take them and in many cases where I was not responsible and where, if I had my way, a different course or perhaps the opposite course would have been taken. The same thing applies to the present Parliamentary Secretary. He must take the blame.
I must refer to promotion in the Office of Public Works. Some people may say that I was asked to make reference to this: I was not. I have never met the man who was promoted; I do not know the man, neither do I know even his name, but I think it is a bad thing, a wrong thing, that promotion should be other than from the office——
Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle could give us a direction on this, as I am not responsible for matters such as the Deputy is speaking about now. I think they do not apply to the present Vote.
Of course if the Parliamentary Secretary is not responsible, the Deputy may not proceed along that line. Obviously, some Minister is responsible——
That is the fellow I want to get.
We refer to the Minister as "the Minister".
I put it to you, Sir, this was one thing I had to fight against in my time and I fought successfully against it, and I want to know the position now.
Perhaps the Deputy will allow me—if the Parliamentary Secretary tells the Chair he is not responsible for this, we must accept his statement and any help my office can give in helping the Deputy to find out what Minister is responsible for such promotion will be freely given. No doubt, some Minister is responsible.
The point I want to make——
There is no use in making a point in respect of it, if the Parliamentary Secretary is not responsible.
Surely the Parliamentary Secretary can come in here and say he is not responsible for anything.
Every member of this House states what is known to him as the truth and it is on that basis that debates are conducted here——
But this was something that was tried in my time before——
I cannot allow the Deputy to proceed. The Parliamentary Secretary has assured me that he is not responsible——
I know well he is not.
Then why raise it?
There are several things here that he is not responsible for.
If the Parliamentary Secretary is not responsible, then it must be raised on the Vote of whatever Minister is responsible—
He will say he is not responsible, either.
I know that well.
That is derogatory of all debate here and I cannot allow the Deputy to proceed. If a Minister is responsible for doing something, he will not come in here and say he is not responsible. It is on that basis that debate is conducted here, and it is on that basis that Parliaments exist.
Therefore, we cannot discuss the matter at all.
The Deputy may not discuss what the Parliamentary Secretary says he has no responsibility for.
I know well he is not responsible for it.
If the Deputy knows that, why try to talk about it?
It was done over his head.
Then we can clearly find out who is responsible.
It was not the first time it was tried.
There is surely somebody responsible.
It is regrettable that such a thing should happen—I shall finish with that—in an office where people work hard and then see no prospect of promotion if somebody is dumped in there from outside and the post is not available to the people in that office.
The Deputy is not helping me. The Deputy should now proceed and leave that matter.
I am sorry. That finishes me with Vote 8 and I come to Vote 9. The Parliamentary Secretary has my sympathy, for the simple reason that I think the Office of Public Works, because of the work it does, is the most blackguarded office in the Government. To quote the words of the outgoing chairman to me at one time: "It is the skivvy for all Departments. It has to take the blame in every case." May I say that in my six-and-a-half years there, no Parliamentary Secretary could get greater co-operation than I got from every official, and I am quite sure the same thing applies to the present Parliamentary Secretary?
In this House, one meets Deputies who will say the Office of Public Works should be the office of no works, so to speak. Let us take, for a moment, the building of schools. In that regard, may I pay tribute to the office, to the commissioners, and to the architects? I am sure that the present Parliamentary Secretary is very interested in the building of schools in the rural areas, as were Deputy Beegan and myself. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he has up to the present time—and I am sure he has, because of its proximity to his native city of Galway—looked at the school known as Bohermore, right beside his own home. I think Mr. Boyd Barrett, one of the architects in the Office of Public Works, was responsible for the building of that school. That is a monument to the Office of Public Works, something that is a show piece in the City of Galway. I am sure there are many other schools throughout Ireland in the same class.
Very often the office is blamed unjustly—I wonder, Sir, if I can even refer to this?—because certain schools are not being built. Frequently, a manager called to me when I was in that office as I am quite sure managers call on the present Parliamentary Secretary. Very often, they do not even have a site. They may not have made any arrangements about a site for the school and frequently the Office of Public Works is blamed. I wonder how much blame will be attributed to it in this coming year, in view of the fact that the Estimate for school building is down to the extent of £174,000. There must as a consequence be less school building, but it is not the Department of Education that will be blamed, and neither is it the school manager who will be blamed, but the Parliamentary Secretary.
No matter what may be said, I think it is a mistake that there should be a reduction in that Estimate. Many of our schools in rural Ireland are actually hovels at the present time. As the Parliamentary Secretary knows and as every member knows as well as I do, in days gone by, national schools were put up every other way and subsequently the Office of Public Works had to take them over. They are doing a great job, but it is a pity the Estimate has been so reduced for the coming year that the work cannot continue as it was continuing. It was my view that the work should be doubled, but my view as Parliamentary Secretary counted for as much as the view of the present Parliamentary Secretary counts, and that is nothing. I know that if he had his way and I had had my way, the work would be continued and the building of schools would not be curtailed as it is at present.
There is another item I am compelled to refer to—arterial drainage. In 1948, the year I became Parliamentary Secretary, I had the honour of starting the first arterial drainage scheme in this country. In the space of three years, three arterial drainage schemes were in operation in this country— the Brosna in Laois-Offaly, the Glyde and Dee in Louth and Monaghan and the Feale in Kerry. The idea then was that these three arterial drainage schemes should be in progress together. For three years, we had a change of Government and during that period not one additional arterial drainage scheme commenced. Of course, it may be said that there was one, the Corrib, but that was just a month before the general election. It just had the name of commencing.
When I examine the position to-day, what do I find? I find that, instead of three arterial drainage schemes being in operation, there is just one, the Corrib. The Brosna has been completed; the Glyde and Dee have been completed, and the Feale has just been completed. When I left office last year, there was a certain amount set aside for the starting of the Maine in Kerry. I find to-day that it is still at the starting stage or about to commence. Therefore, the position to-day is that there is only one arterial drainage scheme in operation. Even though it was not a decision of the inter-Party Government but of the Commissioners of Public Works that three major schemes should be in operation, how is it that to-day we have only one?
There is no use telling me that they are still doing something with the Feale. They are just paring up, as will be seen from the Estimates. There is no use telling me they have started the Maine. The amount of money allocated for the Maine last year was not spent—not one halfpenny of it— and I want to know how that money was spent. The result is that we are down to just one major scheme—the Corrib. The Parliamentary Secretary, God help him, must take all the blame. This is the fourth year on the Corrib drainage scheme. As everybody knows, that is a scheme upon which, according to the Estimates, £2,200,000 was to be spent. This is the fourth year on it now and it is in full operation. I presume that within the past 12 months over 20 extra machines were put on that job, but why is it that the very same sum of money as was provided for that scheme last year is provided this year—£260,000? I want the Parliamentary Secretary to explain to me if £260,000 was sufficient last year with the scheme now in full operation, how is it that, with the additional machinery there now, the sum is still £260,000? I want an explanation of that. I want an explanation in regard to the Maine. I suppose no one was more blackguarded about that than I was. Is there a Kerryman in the House?
No.
There is a Corkman.
There are a few neighbours.
There will be more here before this Estimate is finished. I want to know why that scheme has not been started? The money was allocated for it last year. It was the wish of the late Parliamentary Secretary as it was my wish also, to see it started. I hope it is the wish of the present Parliamentary Secretary. I hope that as soon as possible two other schemes will be started in the Province of Connacht in addition to the Moy. Suitable machinery is lying idle at the Curragh. Then there is the Suck—I am sorry that Deputy McQuillan has left the House—which was another great object of the late Parliamentary Secretary. These are two schemes which I thought would now be in operation, but there is not a word about them.
Somebody said to me last week—I tried to throw my mind back and endeavour to discover whether it was right or wrong—that the present Parliamentary Secretary had no interest in arterial drainage. I do not believe that. This man said to me: "You may remember as you were a member of the Galway County Council away back in 1927 and the Parliamentary Secretary was also a member, that he said he had no interest in drainage." I could not remember that and I do not believe it is right. I want to pay a tribute. I am not one who would pay a tribute unless it were deserved. In my time, I watched closely the Brosna, how it worked and the advantage it was. Not knowing it locally I had to depend on what people told me and what I saw myself. The same applied to the Glyde and Dee and to the Feale.
I was proud of the results and I felt it was a credit to the engineering staff of the Commissioners of Public Works. However, in regard to the Corrib it is not what anybody told me but what I know. On behalf of those people from Galway City, Tuam, Annaghdown, Corofin, Dunmore, Glenamaddy and all of that area, where the Board of Works is giving back 75,000 acres of land to those people, may I say that what they are doing is a credit to them? Never before was such an advantage given to the people of rural Ireland as is being given now. My only objection is that they are not doing it fast enough. That scheme has been going on for over four years. I regret to say that the work is not proceeding as quickly as I would wish so that other areas could be undertaken.
It must be realised that there are roughly 40 major arterial drainage schemes in this country. There must be some speed in bringing them to a conclusion. Three of them going on since 1945 are not cleared up yet. As one who always gives credit where credit is due, I remember being a member of this House when the Fianna Fáil Government was in office and when the then Parliamentary Secretary was the present Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Smith. When the Drainage Act was brought in, surely we did not think it would take all those years to do this work.
May I say that since the Corrib scheme came into operation, when I was Parliamentary Secretary, I had representations from Deputies on the Brosna, on the Glyde and Dee, and I need not mention the Feale? These representations arose for the simple reason that people will not do their own business. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary and the Office of Public Works, for the future, where a scheme is on exhibition, whether it is for three months or for six months, to advise people to go there, to look at the scheme and see whether it affects them for their benefit or otherwise. The scheme is usually put on exhibition to give people an opportunity to object if they think it necessary. Copies of the plans are exhibited in the local courthouses, in Garda barracks, etc., and if people have any objection to make—it could happen that the engineers might overlook something in a scheme or some portion of a scheme that should be done—they are at liberty to make it. Instead of that people do not bother, but once a scheme comes into operation then you have the local Deputy making representations.
People may say: "It is well you have a scheme in your area" but you have much more worry after it comes in than before. Generally a scheme does good rather than harm but people will never talk about the good; they will always tell you about the harm it does them. If they require an addition to a scheme, as is often the case, if they apply to the commissioners they will have that addition made. I am actually ashamed at how often I have to call to the Parliamentary Secretary's office for Tom, Dick and Harry to get an addition in this way, that way or the other way. If those people saw the scheme when it was on exhibition and made their case they would then have the opportunity of having the addition made.
I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary and to the Office of Public Works and their staff to ensure that for the future, when a scheme is on exhibition, it will be made known to the people. It is all right telling me it is in the local newspapers but very few people read what is in the local newspapers. Something should be done to encourage people to go to see the exhibition of the scheme. I am quite sure that if such additions as they might request are of any advantage, the engineering staff of the Office of Public Works are the first people who will see to them.
There is a very good example of this in connection with the Corrib. It was brought to my notice that right beside Galway City where the Parliamentary Secretary himself lives, the part of the Corrib known as the Headford River which flows into the Corrib, was not included. I went out to see it for myself. On the way from Corrandulla into Headford there were 200 acres of land not included. I do not blame the engineering staff for this. Probably at the time it was not brought to their notice but it was a portion that should have been in with the Corrib scheme.
In conclusion, the commissioner, the engineering staff, and the officials are doing great work in relation to arterial drainage, but they are not doing it fast enough. I appeal to them to get on with the three major schemes decided on by the inter-Party Government. There is no good in telling us that one scheme is being cleared up. This year, there is only one scheme and, this year, there is only the same amount of money provided as was provided last year. That is not progress.
I know the Department of Finance does not want drainage. That Department wants to spend money only on something on which they can see an immediate return. Nothing will bring greater revenue ultimately to the country or bring more advantage to the people than arterial drainage. I appeal, once more, to have arterial drainage speeded up. The work being done is a great credit to the Office of Public Works and, even though I have a motion down to refer back this Vote, I do not intend to challenge a division. The work being done, and there is very little gratitude for it generally, by the Parliamentary Secretary and his officials, does not need a division here. The only appeal I have to make is that it be speeded up.
Permit me to join with Deputy Donnellan in paying tribute here, on behalf of myself and my Party, for the work done by Deputy Beegan as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. Permit me also to express my regret at his untimely passing before he achieved what he had set out to do. With that tribute, I should like to link the name of the late Mr. Diarmuid O'Hegarty. Knowing his quite humour, I am sure nobody would have enjoyed more than he hearing himself described as one of the people and not a civil servant in the true sense at all. May the reward of each be the reward of greatness.
On a Vote of this kind, following a perennial pattern, there is really very little that need be said or can be said, unless one is to find fault with the fact that the Vote does follow a perennial pattern. Speaking on other Votes from time to time, I have invariably complained about the high administrative cost in relation to actual labour content and money-earning content in regard to those for whom such schemes are intended. It is a pity, therefore, that this year there should be an increase in administrative costs and a substantial decrease in the amount of money to be spent. Furthermore, it is a pity that, having regard to the necessity for maintaining a staff of such dimensions, both indoor and outdoor, there should not be a greater effort made to place more money at the disposal of that staff, even at the expense of something else.
A Deputy coming from rural Ireland is inevitably interested in that part of the work of this office which dots the Irish countryside, namely, the national school. As a result of planning by this office, the work is excellent. The schools are bright; the lighting is adequate. All the things that go to making happy teachers and happy children are included in the plans. The approval of the site is a matter for the Office of Public Works. From time to time, I have urged upon that office the necessity for including provision for playing fields. For too long, for too many years, have the children been herded together during play-hour in the little gravel patch surrounding the school, the little patch in turn surrounded by a rugged wall. I noticed recently that sites are tending to become larger.
I should like to see the village school, though teacher Deputies have disagreed with me on this, the centre of the children's playtime. I should like to see them returning there on the long afternoons to play games, so essential to their physical well-being and their mental development. It is a matter for regret—there is possibly a good explanation for it—that the amount of money to be spent on building schools this year has been reduced by as much as £174,400. One reason for that may be that there is a carry-over from last year. Deputy Donnellan urged that work should be speeded up. Building schools is one way in which work could be speeded up, thereby avoiding any necessity for a carry-over, if that is the explanation for the decrease.
We all know, not alone from utterances at congresses of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation but from parents, from all interested in primary education and, in fact, from the more recent replies given by the Minister for Education in regard to the number of new schools and alterations to existing schools still required, that the need is very great. In trying to meet that need and making the village school a better place in which to work, both for teacher and pupil, a play centre in the afternoon, you would be doing something to make people happier in this country; and the later years in the national school —say, the 12 to 14 period—which are really the formative pre-adolescent years would not be years of discontent, years of longing to get out of a bad school, to get away from the gravelled yard, to get away to what they might regard as better.
It is important that the programme for national schools should be speeded up. Equally, I agree that we must cut our cloth according to our measure. But, in the absence of a very good explanation, there does not appear to me to be any cogent reason as to why the amount to be expended this year on national schools is to be reduced from that of last year by a figure as great as £174,400.
I take it that the Minister for Education will have a certain amount of responsibility in this matter?
I agree. I am not trying to make the point that the responsibility for the reduction in the amount is that of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance; but on a Vote of this kind, where the amounts are contrasted in the printed Estimate, I thought I was entitled to make some comment on that. I will leave it at that and accept your ruling, Sir.
I have no desire to be politically contentious on a Vote of this kind. These are the kind of things that have been done, are being done and will continue to be done by Governments from whatever Party they are formed. My only desire—and I am sure it is the desire of every member, particularly rural Deputies—in relation to national schools is that the work should be completed with the greatest speed possible.
Representing the constituency of North Mayo, through a large portion of which flows the River Moy, I cannot be blamed if I devote some little time to an appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary that the drainage of the River Moy be made a matter of special priority. It is many years now since I first heard mention of the River Moy, by all kinds of politicians on all sides of the House, that it would be a matter of priority. The strongest possible appeal I could make to the Parliamentary Secretary, on behalf of the River Moy project and on behalf of the people who live along the banks of the river, is to remind him of the Taoiseach's speech in the town of Ballina in 1954, when he was reminiscing and reconstructing a conversation that, he said, had taken place many years before, on the road between Foxford and Ballina, between himself and the late Mr. Ruttledge, who occupied ministerial posts in this House over a number of years. He told the people of Ballina in 1954 that he knew what was in the late Deputy Ruttledge's mind as he looked wistfully towards the Moy, and, divining correctly what was in his mind, he said: "Paddy, we will drain it yet." I now ask, in no spirit of contention, that the Parliamentary Secretary bring that speech to the notice of the Taoiseach and ask the Taoiseach to make the priority of the drainage of the Moy his tribute to the dead to whom he made the promise.
The importance of the Moy can be gathered from the fact that it drains almost 500,000 acres. In fact, the actual figure in the survey would be 480,000 acres. It is known that the rainfall in the area is high, up to 50 inches in the year, and the difficulties of high beds of rock are also known; but putting the advantages and the difficulties side by side and thinking of our dwindling western population and taking the long view, it is important that these difficulties should not be allowed to outweigh the positive advantages that may flow. Anybody who travels through this country, or any other country where arterial drainage has been carried out on any kind of proper scale, cannot fail to contrast the type of crop that appears on the land affected advantageously by that drainage and the type of crop on the marshy, flooded land in other parts.
As a result of this failure over the years to drain the River Moy, I have seen, only a few months ago, people having to leave their houses in the town of Crossmolina where the River Deale, unable to find an outlet into Lough Conn and ultimately into the Moy, was penned back. As a result, you had the spectacle of people being moved out of their houses involuntarily, children's health threatened, movable property destroyed and stocks in shops similarly destroyed. But what must be terrible altogether in areas so affected is the fear that that kind of thing can happen at any time.
In urging that this work go on, I am only urging the continuation of work by successive Governments. It was on 17th April, 1951, that Deputy Dillon, then Minister for Agriculture, with the approval of his Government, announced here that a survey of the Moy catchment would start that year. Sanction was given by the Department of Finance on 17th July of the same year, but in a period in which the Government had changed. That, in my view, is the element of real progress where major schemes and projects of this kind are taken out of the realm of political contention and schemes and projects that are to the national advantage or, at a lower level, to the community advantage, are initiated by one Government, and continued by another, and our people's lives are brightened and made more prosperous as a result.
There is one other matter, of course, that must affect any observations that are to be made by a Deputy of a maritime constituency, that is, the making of piers, harbours, slips and runways generally. The progress in that respect is very slow, much too slow, but, indeed, the blame for any delay or all of the delay certainly cannot be laid at the door of this office. There is so much inter-departmental and even departmental-inter-local authority complexities in matters of this kind that I do not know if it would not be a wise thing for some Government to direct its attention towards the co-ordination of such work in one office.
I conclude by saying that any appeal I have made, or any argument I have used in making it, has not been made in any sort of contentious spirit, but I do require, and I am sure the House will require, a very good explanation as to why the amount to be spent this year shows such a considerable reduction and as to why, at the same time, administrative costs have gone up. In spite of all that, the nation's greatness is often reflected in the magnificence of its public buildings, be they national schools or large edifices designed for greater things, and if our country were to be judged on what has been done already in that respect by the Office of Public Works, even though it may have been regarded as expensive and overelaborate, we need not fear the judgment of any outsider who comes to take a look.
Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil an t-am tagtha inar cheart dúinn dul ar aghaidh le tógáil na scoileanna. Tá a lán des na tithe cónaithe a bhí uainn tógtha anois agus cuid des na daoine a dheineann a slí beatha i mbun an tsaghas sin oibre táid díomhaoin nó ag imeacht thar sáile agus, go deimhin, tá a lán drochscoileanna ar fuaid na tíre agus slí iontu chun na daoine seo a chur ag obair sa mbaile. Dá bhrí sin, ba mhaith tabhairt fé agus dul ar aghaidh níos tapúla a dhéanamh ann.
Go deimhin, is eol dom go bhfuil a lán deacrachtaí áitiúla ann. Uaireanta, is deacair talamh oiriúnach d'fháil san áit cheart chun scoil do chur ann agus páirc imeartha do bheith 'na teannta.
Níl rún agam chur isteach ar an Teachta ach sílim go bhfuil baint mhór ag an Aire Oideachais leis an gceist.
Tuigim é sin ach, chomh fada agus a thuigim, téann an dá rud i dteannta a chéile agus nílim ach ag tagairt don rud sin agus á rá gur maith an rud é é sin a bheith ann ach is deacair uaireanta socrú ceart a dhéanamh. Mar dúirt an Teachta ar an taobh eile den Tigh, is maith an rud páirc imeartha a bheith ann ach, muna mbíonn an pháirc imeartha scartha amach ón scoil b'fheidir go mbeadh na fuinneóga briste nuair a thiocfadh an máistir chun na scoile. Is deacair cúram do ghlacadh muna mbíonn an pháirc imeartha scartha amach ó'n scoil. Sin cuid des na deacrachtaí. 'Sé tá im'aigne agam ná, chun breis oibre a bheith ann dos na daoine a bhíonn ag obair ar a leithéid sin d'oibre, an saor agus gach duine mar sin, gur ceart na scoileanna náisiúnta agus na scoileanna gairmoideachais a chur suas níos tapúla.
Drainage is a means of giving employment in the rural areas and considering that the problem of unemployment is so serious, or has been so serious, because fewer people have been working on the land as a result of the introduction of machinery, advantage should be taken of drainage to provide employment for people near their homes. Cottages have been built throughout the land and we must consider how suitable employment can be provided for the people for whom they have been built. Apart from the number that would work on the land and on the roads, this arterial drainage is another means of providing employment, the most productive employment that can possibly be given in the rural areas.
It has been said that only a few major arterial schemes are on hands at the same time. That could be changed because if we considered that a good programme, the officers of the Board of Works should tackle a whole lot of minor schemes in a county at the same time, not so much on tributary rivers which sometimes take in huge areas, but on minor primary streams which would not require such a lot of planning and such heavy types of machinery to implement them. Everybody knows that there is more machinery available now, both from contractors and otherwise, for this work. People are willing to undertake these schemes and workers are waiting to get employment on them. Perhaps the planning of the Board of Works, with the resources they have and the staffs available, may not be able to extend to the various parts of the country, but there should be some scheme of decentralisation, so that local machinery could be used in conjunction with machinery operated by the Board of Works, in a way that would bring more land back from its flooded and boggy state into that production for which we are all appealing.
It is rare that one sees any scheme at all in a big county such as mine. One very useful and very successful scheme was planned under the régime of the late Seán Moylan, at Minane Bridge, where local landowners co-operated with the county council and with the Board of Works, and, between them, helped to provide the finances, partly by local contributions, partly by State grants, and by the spreading of those contributions over the years in the annuities. The results in this case have been most satisfactory. The scheme is now almost completed and everybody is very happy about it. It was a useful expenditure of money and it gave employment to eight or ten men over the past two or three years.
That is a type of work which will be of advantage to the country. It should be encouraged in every possible way and I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will examine things to see if there are any schemes throughout the country that can be undertaken with local co-operative effort. Work on the main catchment areas should be augmented by smaller schemes in various parts of the country. If we want to tackle the unemployment problem, that is one way of doing it. Many such problems are facing landowners who have good fertile land which is being flooded and endangered as the years go by, and the longer we delay, the bigger the problem will become. By tackling these problems in time, we will be providing work and we will be preserving and restoring fertile land. It is by example and the working out of such schemes that people will realise that their labours will be fruitful.
I cannot speak with any great enthusiasm on this Vote as I come from an area which has benefited very little or, indeed, has secured nothing under this Vote. One would think that we had no river problems at all in County Cork. In the area I come from, there are so many rivers and there is so much damage that it would be almost impossible to calculate the amount of our losses. There has been damage which brought in its trail loss of human life last year, which I brought to the notice of this House some months ago in the form of a parliamentary question.
I mentioned all the rivers concerned in one of the first questions I asked in this House when I sought to know if there were any proposals before the Government for the cleaning of them. They are still fresh in my memory, the Lee, the Ouvane, the Argideen and a few more smaller ones, flooding thousands of acres of land belonging to smallholders. I know that while the engineers in the Board of Works are so engrossed in big schemes costing millions of pounds, which will take 20 years to complete, they could scarcely turn their eyes southwards to County Cork, to what may be termed the smaller schemes, but which are just as important to the livelihood of the small farmers as the big schemes are important to the livelihood of the big farmers.
I was glad that Deputy MacCarthy spoke on this and I listened with interest to the Deputies from the West of Ireland because I now realise that the various Parliamentary Secretaries and a Minister for Lands come from the West of Ireland, and it is only natural then that most of the biggest schemes and most of the money found their way to the West. I do not want to say anything harsh, but I would like some Parliamentary Secretary and some Minister to pay the same attention to every area. I want to put on record that we in West Cork, the constituency I come from, have got no attention whatever. Notwithstanding the fact that I have been in the House for only 12 months, I have mentioned this sufficiently often to bring it to the notice of the authorities and I hope proper heed will now be paid to what I have said, even though the ray of hope in this Vote is very small.
There is a mere £12,000 to be spent in the coming year on minor catchment schemes. I do not know if any of that £12,000 will find its way into West Cork, but I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary, that if it does, it will be money well spent. Every penny spent in rural Ireland on clearing rivers, so that land reclamation can then be proceeded with, will be money well spent. It will give a remunerative return both to the individuals and to the nation in years to come. If only more of the money collected in taxes were invested in the land of Ireland I have no doubt but that we would be a far better-off country to-day.
It took two world wars to bring home to the British Government the importance of agriculture in England. It will take something even more serious, I am afraid, to bring home to the Government of this country the importance of agriculture even though it should have been brought home very forcibly to us last year and the year before that again because were it not for our exports of agricultural produce this country would now be a bankrupt State. Therefore, at the present time, the Vote for this Department is a most important Vote, small and all as it is.
If we can bring more land into productive fertility, we shall do a good job for the farmers of the nation. We can thus produce more cattle from that fertile land which is now being flooded. I think I have said enough on that drainage problem. The facts are well known. A deputation has been appointed to meet the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with the Ouvane, as a result of the flooding of which a man was drowned on the main road last year. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will meet the deputation favourably. If money is available, I hope he will give first priority to this work. Notwithstanding what Deputy Lindsay has said about the River Moy, I do not think any lives were lost on the main roads in the area yet.
School buildings are a very important item. The Office of Public Works came in for some very severe criticism at our last county health meeting in Cork because of the fact that some schools built in recent times had no sewerage and water. It is essential these days, when building a school-house, no matter where it may be, that water and sewerage facilities be provided.
That would be a matter for the Minister for Education, and not for the Parliamentary Secretary.
I accept the ruling of the Chair. I can raise the matter on the Vote for the Department for Education. It is a matter which is annoying the health authorities in Cork at the moment. In future, water and sewerage facilities should be included in the erection of schoolhouses.
Piers and slips along the coast are essential for fishermen to enable them to haul up their boats. I know of cases along the coast where men have to walk over rocks and through mud in order to haul up their boats. A few hundreds of pounds spent here and a few hundreds of pounds spent there would be a great help to the unfortunate fishermen who have such a hard way of life.
It is rather amazing that, in this Vote, the main item of increases is in respect of salaries—£24,720. If those increases were not given and if, instead, that sum of £24,720 were spent on improvements, it would be of greater benefit to the community in general. I realise that civil servants like their pounds of flesh. You cannot blame them for that. Perhaps we have our own friends in the Civil Service. Nevertheless, people such as farmers and fishermen, who have such a difficult way of life, should get every help, inducement and facility so that they may be encouraged to continue in those occupations. We must realise now, before it is too late, that people are flying from these occupations. When they come to me, as a rural Deputy, and ask for those small little favours, I feel I have an obligation and a duty to them to come to Dublin and put their cases as forcefully as I can before the House and before whoever is responsible for the particular business involved. I think, in fairness to the people living in backward areas, it is high time—before rural Ireland is completely depopulated—more consideration were given to the demands which come from those isolated places.
The decision to construct these piers would be a matter for another Minister. When their construction is sanctioned, they would come within the province of the Office of Public Works. Their erection or provision would be a matter for another Minister.
Very well. I have nothing further to say except that when I go to the Office of Public Works or to the Parliamentary Secretary or to any other man I do so in the belief that I have a duty to the people who sent me here. I hope to put the case of the people to the best of my ability, which may not be very good but I shall do it as well as I can for the sake of the people who sent me here.
Donnchadh Mac Seoin
Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an méid a dúirt an Teachta Seán Mac Cárthaigh maidir le tógáil scoileanna. Tá an obair á dhéanamh ar fuaid na tíre ag na Coimisinéirí go maith agus is deas iad na scoileanna atá tógtha acu. Bíodh sin mar atá, tá rud amháin gur cóir dom a rá ina thaobh. Ba mhaith an rud é, uaireanta, dá dtugtaí níos mó airde ar uairibh ar líon na ndaltaí go mbfhefí ag súil leo in áit ar bith i gcaitheamh aimsire. Uaireanta tarlaíonn sé go dtógtar scoil le haghaidh meán-uimhir daltaí ag am áirithe agus, i gceann cúpla bliain, b'fhéidir, caithfear seomra eile do chur leis an scoil.
Tá fhios againn go léir ag caint dúinn ar scoileanna, go bhfuil soláthar uisce an-tábhachtach. Tá sé riachtanach go gcomhfeádfaí soláthar uisce in aigne nuair a bhíonn scoil nua beartaithe nó aon áit go bhfuil súil scoil nua a thógáil inti. Ní dóigh liom gur ceart scoil nua a thógáil anois in aon áit nach bhfuil uisce le fáil ach, má tá obair ar siúl ar scoil anois in áit mar sin, tá sé chomh maith dul ar aghaidh leis an obair agus córas uisce a chur ar fáil di. In aon áit ina bhfuil scoil anois agus go bhfuil deisiú á dhéanamh uirthi uaireanta níl sé oiriúnach ionad na scoile d'athrú ón áit ina bhfuil sí agus tá ar an mbainisteoir í d'fhágáint fé mar a bhfuil sí. Sa chás sin ní dóigh liom go bhfúil sé ró-thábhachtach anois páirc imeartha a sholáthair mar, de gnáth, ins na bailte agus ins na sráidbhailte téann mórán des na daltai abhaile um lón agus ní fhanann an méid céanna acu anois ins an scoil um lón sa tslí nach mbeadh an méid céanna acu ag imirt sa chlós. Níl fhios agam conas a bheadh an scéal maidir le teacht ar ais san iarnóin le himirt i bpáirc na scoile. Níl fhios agam an mbeadh sin ar mhaithe le teach na scoile.
In regard to arterial drainage, another one of the subjects that fall under these Estimates, I should like to make reference to it in relation to the constituency which I represent, West Limerick. As early, I think, as 1925, requests were being made from that county in regard to the drainage of two rivers there, the Maigue, the Deale and a tributary of the Maigue, the Camog River, where there has been for years an amount of flooding with consequent loss of crops and damage to property.
As late as the end of last year, the Deputies for the constituency had to approach the Minister for Lands who was good enough to take an interest in the River Maigue at a time when a problem was arising in regard to its banks. In that respect also, the Deale, with its large catchment area of approximately 150,000 acres, has been a problem for quite an amount of its course southwards of Newcastle West. Some years ago, the farmers there combined to do work on the clearance of some of the tributaries which gave for the time being some relief in respect of the flooding which was occurring in that area. There was also some work done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act between Rathkeale and Newbridge on the lower end of the river, but it was not pursued, further down, where the real trouble lay by reason of an outcrop of rock that was being left, because it was considered a major scheme. A deputation was received here by the Commissioners of Public Works in 1955. There was a complete review made of the case at the time. The whole facts were placed before the commissioners on that occasion and that deputation was told that they would have to wait, that the Deale was one of those rivers which were under consideration.
What the farmers of West Limerick would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary now is what hopes there are for the future implementation of this scheme of drainage which is so necessary. The Deale and the Maigue between them flow through some of the richest of the dairying lands of Munster, and, in the Deale area, approximately 8,000 acres of that land are subject to flooding. A further 30,000 to 50,000 acres there suffer from lack of drainage because of the sluggishness in the suffocated channels. Over the years, since native government was set up, I do not think the amount spent in that area to relieve that problem would be more than £30,000, approximately. The farmers there have not been able to avail of the grants which were available to them under the land project for drainage because of the lack of suitable outfalls.
In relation to the Maigue, the same position obtains. There is extensive flooding between Adare and Croom, and I mentioned already the embankments of the lower Maigue. Last year, it was found that these embankments were inclined to slip and the farmers were very perturbed because they had bitter experience of what happens when parts of the banks slip there. The river has to be contained within high embankments, and, if they slip, the flooding is so extensive that it takes a long time to recover from the resultant damage. This is a constant threat to the lives of the people in that area.
In that connection, we want to plead for our place in the arterial drainage scheme, now that some works are nearing completion. We have an area of rich land that has been subject to flooding since 1925 and onwards and, in regard to the Camog, it goes back even before the advent of native government. Farmers in that area were appealing for relief, and in the Camog area, away back before the advent of native government, something was done but there was a gap left which was never dealt with.
I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary this year to see to it that in the review which I am sure will take place in regard to further schemes of arterial drainage, the question of dealing with one or other of these rivers in an important dairying county, where such a large amount of land is subject to flooding will loom large, so that the farmers of the area may look forward to the removal of this constant threat when we get heavy rain, particularly in the lower Maigue region from Adare towards the Shannon.
I hope something will be done to relieve that area and equally that some work will be done in the lower regions of the Deale from Newbridge towards the Shannon to remove the outcrop of rock there which prevents the head of water from clearing quickly and which imposes pressure further up on the banks. That would be something which would aid the economy of the people in that area and which would mean the spending of money reproductively, inasmuch as the land which is now subject to flooding and which is waiting to be drained could be brought into production and be of benefit not alone to the people themselves but to the prosperity of the country.
To revert for a moment to the question of schools which has been mentioned here, the work which has been done in this regard is very creditable. The Office of Public Works are to be congratulated on the type of school which they have built. The only thing that remains is that they should be built faster. When schools are being built, there is this requirement of space per pupil, but sometimes it happens that schools are built in places when the inevitable swing of population is lowering the average there, and sometimes it does happen that later on rooms have to be added to recently constructed school buildings.
I am afraid that is not a matter for the Parliamentary Secretary, but one for the Minister for Education.
I accept that, but I thought the planning of rooms would be something for the Office of Public Works itself. Those are the only comments I wish to offer on this Estimate. As was said already, this is an Estimate in which there is no contentious material and everyone is anxious to see more work of this type done. We look forward during the coming year to seeing a more extended programme of works carried out under the Office of Public Works.
Ba mhaith liom traoslú leis an Rúnaí Parliminte i ngeall ar an bpost nua atá aige agus guím rath Dé ar an obair thábhactach atá idir lámha aige.
I wish to join with other Deputies who have already spoken in expressing the hope that there will be no slowing up in the provision of national schools, that is, in the provision of new schools, as well as the reconstruction of schools and the provision of additional rooms where they are necessary. I know that this matter has been ruled as being one for the Department of Education but I am sure that I can at least speak on the design of the schools being built at present. I should like to join with the other Deputies who have already spoken in complimenting the architects of the Board of Works on the construction of the schools erected recently. Even in rural areas the schools have all modern amenities such as sewerage and water and I hope that that good work will continue. There is one thing I would like to refer to and that is in connection with the architects and engineers in charge of the designing and construction of these schools.
From inquiries which I have made, I find that many of these men are engaged only on a temporary basis. I think it would be well if the Parliamentary Secretary or the people in charge of the Board of Works saw to it that these men were on a permanent basis. If that were done I think they would have more interest in their work because as it is the temptation is there for these engineers and architects to emigrate when they see that their employment is only of a temporary nature. The Board of Works is doing so much construction work, not alone in regard to schools but in other directions also, that there will be plenty of employment for these architects and engineers for years ahead. If they were given a definite area and their employment were made permanent I consider it would be far better for those concerned and for the country.
As regards arterial drainage, I happen to be fortunate in that I come from the constituency of North Galway where there is at present an arterial drainage scheme under way. I have not much criticism to offer I must say in this regard. I wish to comment favourably on the work that is being done, the productive work, by that drainage scheme and to say that North Galway is very pleased with the employment that is being given. No matter what scheme is in progress, you will find some little snags arising here and there. It is under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, which was passed when Fianna Fáil was in power, that this work is being done. When it was passed there were probably some things that were not thought of and were not foreseen when the scheme was being plotted and planned. One of these I will mention. One particular case which has been brought to my notice is in connection with the village of Skehanagh, Menlough, Ballinasloe. There is a road, made by the Land Commission, leading up to the river and serving residents on both sides.
This road was laid right up to the river and before the Corrib drainage scheme commenced there was what they called a slip whereby the people went across the river to their lands on the far side and to their bogs. There was no trouble in summer time in bringing their horses and carts, or donkeys and carts, through the river because it was practically straight across. Now, since the river has been deepened and sunk six feet the people cannot possibly get across. I brought this matter to the notice of the former Parliamentary Secretary, God rest his soul, but he passed away before I got any conclusive reply. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take up this matter and other similar cases which have arisen in North Galway. The reply heretofore was that because there was no bridge on the map formerly they could not now put down a bridge at this spot.
I, and several other people also, hold that when the position was worsened for these farmers, even though it has improved their lands, they should not be denied access to their land and bogs on the other side. Even though there was not a bridge on the map in former times—there was no need for one then —a bridge should now be erected or some means provided for them to get across to their land and bring their turf home from the bogs on the far side. This particular instance is not an isolated one. I mention this place because recently I had it up before the Board of Works. There are a good few similar cases which have been brought to my notice.
Another snag which has arisen is in connection with pumps and wells, particularly wells. There are wells serving people—I suppose this happens in all drainage areas and I am sure other Deputies will mention similar cases—which have been used for years but now since the rivers have been sunk and the lands drained they always run completely dry in summer time. The people are left without any source of water. The same thing I understand has happened in regard to some pumps. When the Parliamentary Secretary is replying I should like him to say who is responsible for providing an alternative source of supply for people so denied of a water supply which they have had for years and years before.
Another point which I would like to make on this Estimate—other Deputies have spoken about it—is that there should be co-operation between the Board of Works and the Department of Agriculture particularly as regards the land project scheme. I have seen cases of main drains flowing into a river, under the Corrib drainage scheme, and the dredgers by-passed them. At the same time the farmers on both sides of these main drains have received sanction for grants under the land project scheme and are waiting for the main outlet to be deepened and drained before they can go ahead with the draining of their lands. I think if there was some co-operation between the two Departments involved especially when we are seeking increased production it would be of benefit to all concerned.
Before I conclude, I wish to make an appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to increase the wages of labourers on the Corrib Drainage Scheme. I had a parliamentary question down on this subject towards the end of last year. I should like to point out that in summer time those people are not so badly off because they can earn overtime but in winter they should at least be paid as much as the county council workers and the forestry workers. As everybody knows the work of those employed on drainage in the height of winter is very onerous and difficult and I think their wages should be brought into line with the other classes I have mentioned.
That is all I have to say on this Vote apart from congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary again on his new post and on introducing the Vote for the Office of Public Works for the first time. I wish him every success in the difficult task he has in hands.
I should like to address a few remarks to the Parliamentary Secretary in regard to arterial drainage in my constituency. The North Cork constituency is not, as a rule, a constituency that demands of any Department any preponderance of the various grants and provisions for parts of the country subject to more intensive flooding. There is no great demand for land division; we have no large estates, neither have we congested holdings, but in one part of the constituency, annual flooding is occasioned by the Awbeg River which is a tributary of the Blackwater. It passes through some very good land. I know of no part of the country in which proper drainage would be more likely in a very short time to recoup its cost by way of increased production, which I think would be of a startling character. The farmers in this area have been agitating for a considerable time and they recently called a meeting at Buttevant where some 200 landowners assembled to prepare a case for submission to the Office of Public Works. The meeting was attended by the three Deputies and although my colleagues are not here to-day, I know that they would join with me in making an appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to examine sympathetically the possibility of having the Awbeg drained.
I know that a problem likely to arise in relation to this is the fact that the Awbeg is merely a tributary of the Blackwater, but since there has been no severe flooding in the lower regions, this tributary could well be regarded as a distinct catchment area quite apart from the mother river. If this work were carried out it would not inflict any additional flooding on the landowners in the lower reaches of the Blackwater other than that which they may already have, as people do from time to time. The consequences of getting that stretch of land drained would be that more than 200 farmers would at long last embark upon intensive field drainage and greater production, bringing to that part of the country an income which at the moment it cannot get.
I know that the bulk of production in that area would be of the character of dairy produce. We realise in these days that the Government is embarrassed by the increase which has taken place in dairy production but, very happily, I am able to point out that at least 75 per cent. of the farmers in this area supply their milk to one co-operative society at Ballyclough and that society manufactures no butter. They have a lucrative market in the Middle East for their dried milk and it is an extremely successful society, so that any increase in milk production in the whole of that area would not entail even a single pound being paid by way of subsidy to market any surplus butter. These farmers are heavy ratepayers as well as being— like everybody else—taxpayers. They are people who have never demanded from any Department of State anything by way of contribution to assist them in the management of their affairs, but in relation to flooding they have a very serious handicap and one which it is the responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary in his Department to seek to alleviate as soon as practicable.
I am aware there is a priority list and I know there are other parts of the country that have very serious claims to arterial drainage but I earnestly appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the drainage of the Awbeg and so make it possible for these industrious, progressive and hard-working farmers to do as their neighbours are doing in the vicinity and be guaranteed that the fruits of their labour will not be destroyed by the flooding to which they have been subjected for so long. If the Awbeg is regarded merely as a tributary of the Blackwater, it would have to take its place as part of the gigantic scheme which may well have to wait for many years. I think that would be extremely unfair to these people. I believe the carrying out of the drainage now would not entail any additional flooding on the people in the lower regions of the Blackwater.
It is in regard to this problem I speak on this Vote. As I have said, my constituency in general is not seriously effected by other aspects of contribution from this Vote as are other parts of the country but I wish to emphasise the desirability of giving the most sympathetic consideration possible to the surveying of this area and to seeing if it is possible to expedite the work which is very necessary in that locality.
My first duty is to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on the work he has undertaken in assuming charge of the Office of Public Works.
Give him sympathy.
I wish also to pay a special tribute to his predecessor who was most helpful, was a very honest and hard-working Parliamentary Secretary, and carried out his duties in a most exemplary manner.
Not a word about Deputy Donnellan.
Not a word about him.
I want to speak about harbours. In speaking about harbours, I am talking about something the position of which I have been trying to get improved for the past 14 years, even during the time Deputy Donnellan was in charge.
And the Deputy did not succeed?
I was never short of promises.
The Deputy will not be short of them now, either.
I want to speak, in particular, about Skerries harbour. We have 20 fishing boats there, all over 50 feet long, and they are lined up four deep. Only about three of them can get along the harbour and the remainder have to go away out. Loughshinny harbour is not capable of taking the larger boats, so that Skerries is packed up. Skerries is also a tourist centre to which a number of visiting yachts come every year. Coal boats call there and there is utter confusion there on many occasions. The Parliamentary Secretary knows this harbour and I know that, if he can do anything to see that it is improved, the people of Skerries and the fishermen of Loughshinny and Skerries, and I myself, will be deeply grateful to him.
Not very long ago, the Minister for Lands visited Skerries harbour. The harbours are under the jurisdiction of the Board of Works, while fisheries deal with the boats. There is a certain amount of co-ordination, but I should like to see a good deal more, in order to encourage fishing at the present moment. These boats are very expensive and the fishermen have put a good deal of money into them.
Did the Deputy say whether it was a matter for the Minister for Lands or the Parliamentary Secretary?
I am dealing with the harbour. I agree that the question of boats is a matter for the Minister for Lands. The harbour to which I am referring is not directly under the jurisdiction of the Board of Works, but any money we get is through the Board of Works.
Blame them, anyhow.
The people concerned will be deeply grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary, if he gives any assistance towards extending and improving the harbour.
With regard to Howth harbour, numerous Parliamentary Secretaries have assisted me in trying to get it dredged but a lot yet remains to be done in that regard. The harbour was not dredged properly for a long number of years. I do not say that the Board of Works did not send a dredger, but the dredger always appeared to be wanted elsewhere in a hurry. We have a number of fishing boats in Howth and a number of foreign fishing vessels take shelter there when the weather is bad and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to improve the dredging there. The work is very essential, both from a fishing and tourist point of view. A number of large yachts from continental countries visit our harbours and some of them come into Howth. At low tide, when they should float, they sit on the mud. It is very essential both from a local and national point of view to have that harbour properly dredged. I should also like to have the boat slip at the west corner of the harbour improved so that the larger fishing boats could be brought up the slip, properly overhauled, painted and the necessary repairs carried out.
On the question of flooding, we have a river in the North County Dublin— the Broadmeadow river—which is already on the arterial drainage list. The situation has been so bad in this area over past years that whenever bad weather comes, quite a number of houses are flooded. The Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor had the place surveyed, but nothing has been done since. It has been examined and a report will be made to the Parliamentary Secretary. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to try to get the work in regard to the Broadmeadow river expedited.
There is another river which I want to get on the list. It is a river which floods a number of farms round the Bog of the Ring in the, Balbriggan catchment area. That area is very bad also, and I should like the Bog of the Ring to be put on the arterial drainage list for examination in the near future. I received a deputation from a number of farmers, no later than Sunday last. They stated that their land had been rendered worthless as a result of flooding. In fact, the water is actually lying on a couple of acres. If something is not done within a few years, there will be the makings of a big lake in that area.
I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to see if he could provide more money for public works in order to relieve unemployment. We have a number of unemployed people. I know this is a matter for the Minister for Finance, as far as money is concerned. Nevertheless, we have a very serious problem.
Blame the Board of Works.
The Deputy is not sitting on this side of the House now.
Thank God.
We are trying to do our best for our people.
Blame the Board of Works.
Deputy Burke.
I am anxious that more money should be spent on public works. People on the other side made a great deal of capital about the reconstruction of certain public buildings in Dublin. If we have the money, we should improve our public buildings. We have a big amount of unemployment in Dublin City and County. While it is essential to do many necessary things in rural Ireland, we must also create employment for the people living in the populous areas. In view of the condition of the building trade, it is possible to do only this by relying on public works to provide schemes of employment, even if we have to put up with abuse from Deputy Donnellan down the country. I am tired of that hypocrisy.
When did the Deputy leave rural Ireland?
That does not arise.
It should arise. The cheek of the Deputy!
I am sorry Deputy Donnellan got so angry. He has been continually interrupting me since I got to my feet. I do not interrupt any Deputy. In spite of what Deputy Donnellan says, I have a right to make a contribution. I got the second highest vote in Ireland.
I could not stop the Deputy.
I will leave it at that.
This is not a very contentious Estimate, but it deserved more consideration from the Government. Instead of a reduction of £174,000, there should have been an increase. The Board of Works deserves every credit. Although it operates slowly and silently, it does very good work. Its work over the years has changed the face of rural Ireland. The major drainage schemes undertaken have done immense good. Tens of thousands of acres of bad land have been made into good land and thousands of homes have been saved from annual flooding. It is an epoch in our history of which we can be proud.
I saw the carrying out of drainage work on the Rye at Kilcock. During the winter months, it was often flooded to a depth of three feet for a month of the year. Now that little village is high and dry. The work there was very well carried out, and, apart from cleaning, will not require to be done again for a long time. Very good work has also been done on the Glyde and Dee between Navan and North Meath. It was done so well that the pump holes on the farmers' land were made dry.
It was done too well.
The Board of Works have also done very good work in regard to the building of new schools. The new schools, both vocational and national, are a credit, and, as the years go by, they are becoming better, more picturesque and healtheir. That is what we need. It is a mark of our progress. However, I would like to see greater speed in the building of schools. They are most important for the future of Ireland. The old schools were relics of the bad days and the sooner they are blotted out, the better. They came in immediately after the hedge schools.
Every area has its problems and in my area, the main problem is the drainage of the Boyne. I hope that that project, now on the stocks, will get its proper place in the priority list and will be embarked on in the near future. Tens of thousands of acres of very valuable land are flooded periodically. Sometimes all the Valley of the Boyne is flooded. In addition, there is the drainage of all the bogs in the Midlands into the Boyne, creating sediment and making new embankments. I hear rumours that the different drainage schemes can be switched as a result of changes of Government. I do not want to see any switch in the Boyne because that river is becoming silted up. Between Trim and Drogheda, there are now three channels and mudbanks with trees growing on them. That is the best land in the country and there is no reason why this should continue.
I hope the board will get working on that river. It will give immense help to farmers who cannot avail of land reclamation schemes, until the river is properly drained. The land of Ireland is the life of Ireland. It is there we should build the future of Ireland and we cannot do that, if we have flooded lands. I hope the Board of Works will get working on the drainage of the Boyne. It is of immense importance to the Midlands of Ireland.
Ordered: That the Vote be now postponed.