Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jul 1958

Vol. 169 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Fisheries (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration—(Deputy O.J. Flanagan).

Mr. Coogan

Last night, Sir, I assured the Minister of the full co-operation of the vocational educational committee in his starting the nautical school in Galway and I raised the question of short-circuiting that course by taking on already qualified men who have their tickets with the merchant navy. I know of many fully qualified men who are prepared to come back and settle down with their families and pull their weight in fishing off the west coast.

I am reluctantly compelled to refer to the abandoned fish freezing plant at Galway. I can say that "abandoned" is the word because that plant was opened on the 1st February and the Minister made some flowery speeches there. I have copies of some of those speeches from the local paper of that date. He held out great hope for the future of the fishing industry in the West. That plant has now been abandoned and I repeat that "abandoned" is the word. As I said, the Minister made some flowery speeches and referred to the freezing of fish and the freezing of vegetables so that we did not know what industry he was giving us.

The building is most impressive. It should be, because it cost £62,000. At the moment that plant is surrounded by weeds three feet in height. I saw them only the other night. The plant is the laughing stock of the whole country and it is recognised as a white elephant. It need not be a laughing stock because it could be, and should be, brought into full production when it would be an asset to the West. I have already said that the Minister has fallen down on this matter. He did not like being told that, but I repeat it. It is not speeches we want from the Minister but a little bit of action. I should like to know his intentions with regard to putting this plant into immediate production.

The action of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara has resulted in killing fishing in the West. The Minister has said that he would like us to co-operate with him in encouraging the landings of fish so as to get this plant working, but the first action taken by his Department was to reduce the price of pollock from 6/- to 4/- per stone. How does the Minister expect that fish freezing plant to be brought into production if he is not prepared to pay a proper price for fish? Does he think that the fishermen are born fools, that they will hand the fish over to him when they can get double the price for it from the merchants in Dublin? "Let the Minister pay the price and the plant will be put into immediate production.

I was speaking to some of the fishermen the other night and they told me that An Bord Iascaigh Mhara is trying to put the onus on the fishermen to land the fish and to keep the plant going. The answer of the fishermen given to me is: "Let the Minister give the lead. Let him bring the three German trawlers to Galway and let them prove their worth by landing the fish. Let him berth them at Galway and let them fish from Galway. Let the Minister show the fishermen how to do their own business if he is able to do so."

I should also like to know why An Bord Iascaigh Mhara has not made an offer for whiting to the fishermen. The Minister should give a guarantee that, during periods of glut, the plant at Galway will accept herring and mackerel from the Claddagh fishermen. It is a terrible thing to see them having to dump the fish back into the sea. Such a guarantee would mean a lot to these men. While as I have stated, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara have reduced the price of fish they have, over the years, increased the price of gear and surely this is not very encouraging to fishermen.

I should like to know what steps the Minister is taking to develop the escallop industry. Why cannot he seek a market for them? The French market for lobster and other shellfish is very uncertain. Is the Minister prepared to leave that also to Gael Linn who have already done so much? We have in Clarenbridge some of the best oyster beds in the world and I should like the Department to interest itself in the oyster beds there. Three years ago An Bord Iascaigh Mhara dumped 10,000 oysters in those beds and since then they seem to have forgotten all about them. They seem to show very little interest in them. I should like the Minister to take steps to protect these beds and show greater interest in their further development.

The Minister has mentioned inland fisheries and paid tribute to the good catches on Lough Corrib. We are justly proud of Lough Corrib as a fishing centre and voluntary effort by angling associations, both at Corrib and other places, is to be highly commended. I am glad to note the laudatory remarks of the Minister in regard to the wonderful fishing on Lough Corrib and, in that connection, I should like to refer to a matter which I raised last year, the connection of Lough Corrib with Lough Mask through the abandoned canal. I understand there has been a survey of that project to see what the possibilities are, and I should like the Minister to let us know the results of it. If this project were carried out, we would have the greatest fishing grounds in the world and they would pay greater dividends to the tourist catering communities.

I agree with the Minister when he says it is essential to develop our fishing harbours. I know it is not the responsibility of the Minister to do it, but I feel it is the responsibility of the Minister to press that these harbours be developed. I should like to know the contents of the report on Kilronan Pier. At times, quite a number of fishing boats are berthed there and I can foresee, at certain stages of the wind during rough weather, that these boats will be smashed to pieces, unless the proposed extension is made to the pier. I know it is not the Minister's responsibility, but I should like to have attention paid to the problem.

I would also like to see better and greater berthage provided at Galway docks, to see certain sections allotted to trawlers, and I would like the Minister to examine what arrangements can be made. The Department should make provision for a proper maintenance, repair and supply service for boats. Sometimes trawlers are tied up for two or three months and that is a terrible thing to see. Some arrangement should be made whereby they could be repaired more speedily. It is an important matter for our fishing industry.

I understand that some boats built by and for An Bord Iascaigh Mhara are not suitable for the carrying of ice. The Department should inquire into this question. I understand the bulkheads are not airtight. I do not want to go into the technical points, but I have been told they are not suitable for the carrying of ice which is an important thing in the handling of fish to ensure that they will reach markets in a good state.

Mention has been made of protection for our fishing fleet within the three-miles limit. With other Deputies, I hold that the limit should be extended to 12 miles. Every day we hear of the three-miles limit rule being flouted by foreigners, and if our corvette comes around, a tip-off is given, and the corvette suffers from that disadvantage. It has been suggested here, and I think it is a good suggestion, that the Department of Defence should be asked to put an armed party on board some of these trawlers. If that were done, there would soon be respect for our three-miles limit, a respect that has not been given to it heretofore. At times, our fishermen's nets have been torn to pieces by foreign trawlers and, in addition to that, they come in with a very fine 32-row mesh and gut our areas of fish. Because of that, it is no wonder our fishing has gone down over the years. Our fishing grounds have been swept clean by foreigners. We say that if it pays the foreigner to come here, surely it should pay the Irish to go out a few miles and catch fish, but they will have to go out further.

I would like the Minister to let us know what his views are on the fish-freezing plant at Galway. It has caused a lot of ridicule and I do not like to see it being left there in its present condition. It is not for the sake of ridiculing the Minister that I raise this matter. There are quite a large number of men unemployed in our city and I recall that, on the day the plant was opened by the Minister, there were ten or 12 men present in white coats. They impressed me. These men had been brought from the exchange for show purposes, but I think if we have less show and more action, fishing might be put on a proper footing. I look forward to a full explanation from the Minister of his intentions. Fish are being landed there which could keep that plant operating, but the fishermen will not hand their catches over to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for half the price they get elsewhere. Let the board pay a proper price and that plant will be put working right away.

Mr. Kyne

I may preface my remarks on fishing by stating that I have no particular knowledge and no particular skill in the industry beyond the fact that I come from an area in which fishing is an industry, that I associate with people who fish and that I have a small knowledge of seafaring conditions from my youth. I read with great pleasure the report of the Minister on fishing in the year under review. I have been pleased to note that, in all branches of the fishing industry, progress has been made, and I have no intention of entering into any controversy initiated here as to who was responsible for that progress, whether it was the previous Minister, the present Minister or any Minister in the past. It is sufficient for me that we are making progress and it is good that the Minister can make such a report. I congratulate him on the fact that he is able to do that and I do not raise the question of how or by whom the progress was achieved.

I agree in the main with the majority of the Minister's conclusions and with his suggestions as to what should be done for the future. I have read his report with very deep interest, and, in particular, I agree with his suggestions about the size of what he calls the middle-water boat, the 75-foot boat. The smaller boats on which we concentrated to a great extent in the past are not desirable in present circumstances. They are not profit-making. Boats of 75 feet are needed. That is the general view of fishermen, particularly in the Waterford area.

On the question of the examination of the habits and movements of fish, a great deal more is required in that direction. Some time ago I read a report published by the Department of Local Government before 1900. Included in that report was a large section devoted to fisheries, the movement of fish around the coast, the trend of exports and imports and the various other aspects of fishing. I can find no contemporary publication that in any way corresponds to the extensive study of fishing as an industry that was given in that report.

I am delighted that the Minister is dealing with fishing as an important industry which could come quite close to agriculture in importance. Fishing has been treated as the Cinderella for far too long. The transfer of Fisheries to the Department of Lands is an improvement. I wonder whether or not Fisheries deserves a separate Minister but probably that matter is not to be talked about. I am delighted at the Minister's proposal for research both afloat and ashore. That is of the utmost importance. Until the question is tackled in that way the progress so urgently needed will not be made.

In dealing with the question of the scarcity of trained men, the Minister struck a note that appealed to me. Less than a year ago, in Waterford, the problem arose of getting a trained skipper capable of handling a boat fitted with modern equipment. While there were excellent fishermen available, we did not have the type of skipper necessary for that type of boat. Eventually a man was appointed who, after a course of training, was able to take over the boat. That boat is now in service. There is urgent need to attract young boys to sea fishing. The Minister suggests that they should be offered good pay, hard work, and an element of danger. That will appeal to young boys. Irish boys are willing to accept those conditions. The work is hard. There is an element of danger and if the good pay is assured, young boys will be attracted to the industry and progress can be made.

I would suggest that there could be an extension of the training school to the south coast. It is all right to have a school in Galway and to attract boys from other areas to that school, to pay their way there and to give them every inducement. A beginning must be made somewhere. Possibly Galway was the best choice. I would suggest that a school situated adjacent to the maritime counties of Munster would be more attractive to Munster boys. It could be run in conjunction with vocational schools. Such a school would be more attractive to boys from Munster, even if it were on a smaller scale than the school in Galway and catered for a limited class.

The Minister's suggestion that there should be propaganda to encourage young people to enter the fishing industry is a good suggestion. Every member of the House could be very usefully engaged in that propaganda.

I was particularly interested in the Minister's statement on the matter of political influence. I welcome it. It is most desirable that such a statement should be made. I heard Deputy Palmer's very definite statement on the matter of political influence. I could not say of my own knowledge that there were instances where political influence was exerted, but I could understand Deputy Palmer's remarks because of the fact that, in the County Waterford area, rightly or wrongly, it is taken for granted that you must have political influence to get a boat, so much so, that I have seen Deputies in deputations at ministerial, Parliamentary Secretary and official level recommending people for boats when they had not the ability to judge as to their capabilities in handling a boat. It often made me smile. Of course, they were good Deputies, doing what their constituents asked and fulfilling the part expected of them.

I do not know when it originated but the belief crept in that, unless you had political influence, there was no use applying for a boat. I know that can be said of many positions that are under ministerial patronage and does not apply solely to the Fisheries Branch but it is there, whatever the reason may be. The Minister would be well-advised to heed the comments of Deputy Desmond of South Cork. Deputy Desmond said that the Minister should be careful, that he should be, like Caesar's wife, above suspicion, that when he visits an area he should invite not only Deputies of his own Party, but all Deputies, if he wants us to believe his word—and I accept his word—that there is no political influences, or none intended.

Mr. Childers

In actual fact, I may have been acting wrongly in this but I assumed the local association would invite the people. I would be very glad to have any Deputies present who liked to come.

Mr. Kyne

It does not apply to me. It is not a matter personal to me. The Minister came to Waterford and, I understand, invited Deputy Lynch. I did not get an invitation, incidentally, but it did not affect me. In order that the Minister may, like Caesar's wife, be above suspicion, all public representatives should be invited, down to a certain level. I do not suggest that every local councillor and all such people should be invited. I accept the Minister's assurance but I feel that, if he adopted that suggestion, it would help to make it known that, as and from now, there will be no more political influence in the matter of securing boats, that the only consideration will be ability to do the job well. All Parties in the House would welcome that. I do not say that in the past boats have been allocated otherwise but the Minister's remissness to which I have referred, if it was remissness, could give countenance to the complaints that have been made.

On the question of marketing, the Minister stated that we should produce for the best market available, that is, Britain and elsewhere. The Minister knows much more about it than I do, having facilities to learn about it. In my area, where there are only a few boats, the catch could often be trebled but the catch is limited to what the buyers indicate. Before the boat goes out, the fishermen are told how much they must catch and not to bring in more. I can give the Minister, in private, if he wants it, the name of the boat and can quote where the buyers have said: "Catch no more than ten boxes of fish. If you bring in any more than ten boxes and the box or two you want for your own use and which is not for sale, none of it will be taken from you."

It is deplorable that the middleman or buyer is able to dictate to the man who goes out to sea as to how much fish he is to take irrespective of what is there to be caught or what the possibilities are. That is a regular occurrence in Helvic, County Waterford. Although I have no knowledge of fishing I mix with fishermen in the Ballinagoul area. They are personal friends of mine and if I speak here as one without knowledge, I speak on behalf of full-time fishermen who have the knowledge and who tell me they are being dictated to by these middlemen. They are being put in the same position as the farming community were some time ago before they developed the cooperative movement. If they take in extra fish even to sell locally, and which they could sell locally, they are told: "The next time you take in fish you will get nobody to buy it at all and it will be left on your hands." The Minister surely has some function there. He should be able to stop that exploitation of the fishermen because I feel that is what it is. Maybe "exploitation" is too strong a word but I am repeating what I have been told by people who are engaged full time in fishing.

I read with very great interest the Minister's views on the small fishing centres. On the whole I agree with him. I suppose he is quite right that considering the overheads on taking small catches, say, of lobster to the Dublin market, it must be done on a co-operative basis. The ordinary fisherman, as I know him, is not capable of doing the job and somebody must step in to remedy that position. When we were discussing the Transport Bill a fortnight ago, it struck me that, when the Minister was agreeing to give the farmers certain facilities for moving cattle, and so on, there were no representations made on behalf of fishermen.

In the past representations were made to the Minister for Industry and Commerce from the area I repesent, Helvic, that the fishermen, by some relaxation of the trade plate, should be allowed to take their fish to Dublin, because it would not pay to charter a C.I.E. lorry to take small lots of fish. That was turned down, I suppose, because of the existing Act. I was wondering were the fishermen's representatives as active as the farmers' when the Transport Bill was going through. Perhaps they were, but if so they were not as successful as the farmers.

The main reason for the falling off in lobster catches around the area I represent is that the transport charges to Dublin leave too small a margin of profit. Twice or three times or maybe ten times as many lobster could be caught and sent to Dublin, but what is the point of sending it for a pittance? I am not one of those who blow hot and cold on this subject. I was always completely in favour of having a licensed haulage service but I do feel that if an important industry is struggling to live and to develop, concessions can be granted without inroads being made on the rights of the people, in other words, that the weaker sections in any area should be helped to grow stronger to the point where they would be able to employ full time transport. By encouraging them now you might be able to provide more employment later on.

In relation to the home market, Deputy Palmer and other Deputies raised the question of the availability of fish for use in rural areas. The Minister spoke about our having a very low fish consumption. I suppose that is true and may always be true. I do not know, but I do know that I live within only two or three miles of a very good fishing centre and on most Fridays—and I speak only of Fridays —fish is not available unless it comes from Dublin. Surely there is something wrong there. In Cappoquin, Dunmore, Waterford, Carrick-on-Suir, all through Tipperary and Cork there is not a bit of fish to be had unless it is obtained from casual fish carriers. Unless people get what is called gabble, the cleanings of the boat, there is nothing on offer.

Surely the Minister and An Bord Iascaigh Mhara have a function there. I suggest to the Minister—I am only repeating what my colleague, Deputy Desmond, said—that there is need for some organisation, be it State or semi-State, to co-ordinate the present arrangements so that fish will be available everywhere in Ireland when it is wanted. I would suggest that cooperative creameries are the kind of framework around which that could be carried out. Perhaps some deep-freeze centres, so many in a county or in an area, could be established so that fish could be distributed as required under the control of some central agency in the manner in which an army commander at headquarters would direct supplies here, there and everywhere.

I know that fish will be sold if it is available, but even quite close to the coast where I live fish is not available for people who want it. I can always get fish. All I have to do is to drive to Ring at any time and pick it up, but everybody is not in that position. Housewives cannot drive out to Ring, Helvic or anywhere else. I know cases, which must be very galling to fishermen, where fish which the fisherman has risked his life or certainly worked hard to get, was sold at 15/- a box by him and purchased at 30/- a box by the local buyer, with the middleman making £1 a box without even looking at it.

The Minister has quite a task before him. The fishing industry needs a good deal of examination. It needs a Minister who is prepared to deal with the position which has existed for a while past. I do not pretend to have any particular knowledge on this matter. I am giving the Minister a reflection of what I might say uneducated fishermen have struggled to tell me. I am now struggling to give a reflection of that picture to the Minister in an honest effort to have the fishing industry improved.

With regard to the protection of sea fisheries, I think there is need for more boats. I do not know much about the ten-mile limit, or whatever the limit may be. I assume the Minister and his officials will deal with that matter better than I can. Even the fishermen on whose behalf I speak have not presumed to advise in that connection. However, from my own knowledge, I would say there is need for protection.

The Minister might be well advised, at Cabinet meetings and elsewhere, to press for the use of helicopters by the Army, instead of jet planes, for use as spotters and scouts. If he could succeed in getting the Department of Defence, or whatever Department may be involved, to provide more boats we might clear the area within which we have fishing rights and reserve it exclusively for our fishermen. I am glad the Minister is giving fishing the attention it deserves and which I feel it has not received up to the present. I wish him well in his task. I hope he will succeed in making fishing a big industry because I believe the potential is there.

Mr. Moloney

I should like to make a contribution to this important debate and to start off by referring to deep-sea angling. In recent months, the Minister has succeeded in giving encouragement to this relatively new form of activity in so far as he has been able to bring about the establishment of quite a number of deep-sea angling clubs at appropriate points of our sea fisheries. At the moment, those clubs are very anxious to do all that is expected of them but they are lacking somewhat in facilities. It is necessary for the members of those clubs, in the course of their fishing activities, to engage boats that are at present being used by local fishermen on hire-purchase terms from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. The question of insurance presents a very big problem.

The boats, when used on operations of the type to which I have referred, have to be specially insured. The ordinary insurance coverage does not indemnify An Bord Iascaigh Mhara or the renters while the boats are being used on such occasions. I have been told by one club in particular and also by members of another club that they are involved in considerable expense in obtaining the necessary coverage for the boats when engaged. I was hoping the Minister might be able to bring about a situation whereby the existing insurance coverage could be extended, on payment of a small premium, to cover the extra risk involved in this connection.

Those clubs that have been set up in recent months are very enthusiastic and will give very great co-operation to the Minister to popularise deep-sea fishing. It should not be beyond the Minister's power to come to their assistance in the manner I have mentioned.

At the moment, the Minister is inclined to lay pretty strong emphasis on deep-sea fishing and mid-sea fishing, if we may use the term. In his opening statement the Minister also referred to inshore fishing and the activity that arises in that connection. I think he indicated that, if people engaged in inshore fishing were prepared to remain at work for longer periods during the day, the percentage of catches would be considerably increased, thus reducing the overheads and adding a nice margin to the net profits of the people participating in the industry.

Mr. Childers

Some of them.

Mr. Moloney

I have been told that in the Dingle area, part of my constituency, the people who have charge of the hire-purchase boats, and even those who have boats of their own—if there are any of that kind; I do not know—go out at five o'clock in the morning and remain out until eight o'clock in the evening. I have personal knowledge that that statement is correct. The Minister will have to admit that if people, in the main, are prepared to fish for such a lengthy period on any day, and particularly over the week, they are making the effort necessary to obtain the greatest reward for their labours. Even if the catches are satisfactory, there is difficulty. Up to the present, they find that for the first four days of the week they are able to dispose of their catches through An Bord Iascaigh Mhara but, for the remaining two days of the week, the fish have to be sold under a different arrangement. I find it hard to understand why that should be so.

I am advised, on the authority of quite a number of fishing people in Dingle and the adjoining fishing centres, that they have no reliable market for fish on Thursdays, Fridays and even Saturdays. In other words, the board is not in a position to take the fish from them at the guaranteed price at which it is taken in the early part of the week. There is very little use in fishermen spending longer hours in endeavouring to catch more fish if there is not some sort of steady market to dispose of the catches the whole week round.

With regard to the investigations to which the Minister referred—and which, I think, were dealt with on the debate last year—in relation to exploring certain fishery areas that had not, more or less, been fully utilised within recent years, I have been told that the local fishermen are anxious to carry out that experiment as they believe they can carry it through fairly successfully. A question arises as to the initial expense involved. Extra gear has to be obtained. There is also the point that the damage likely to occur to that gear in the course of such exploratory work is rather severe.

I wonder if the Minister could offer some incentive to private interests, of the kind to which I have referred, by way of compensating them, to a reasonable extent, for the destruction of gear which will occur during the course of any special investigation work of the kind that will have to be undertaken. One fisherman told me that he made a survey of part of the fishing waters off Baile na nGall and after some days he found considerable damage had been done to his nets, due to the fact that they had come into contact with rocks, and in one instance with wreckage, which destroyed the net altogether. There is something there which the Minister might take up and examine. Those local people are familiar with the particular area being explored. They are anxious to go into new grounds and to develop their potentialities, and if possible they should be assisted in some way. I am quite sure that at least they could obtain a considerable portion of the information that the Minister seeks through this special scheme for investigating the potentialities of certain waters.

There is a question regarding the existing arrangements of hire purchase with which I should like to deal. I have gained some knowledge of this over the past six months because of representations made to me. Even though there are times when An Bord Iascaigh Mhara might have very good grounds for tightening up, nevertheless the hire-purchase terms are rather severe. Formerly gear could be obtained by a down payment of approximately 25 per cent. and the balance was liquidated by the board getting two and a half shares per catch.

The board have tightened up now, so far as that is concerned, and the applicant now is obliged to have a clear account before he can enter into a new transaction. When he does propose to enter into a new transaction the initial deposit, I understand, has been raised from 25 per cent. to 33? per cent. and the method of paying the outstanding balance has been increased from two and a half shares to three and a half shares per catch.

I have gone into the whole question with the fishermen in great detail and unless catches are very satisfactory I am satisfied that hardship can be caused in quite a number of cases by the operation of the present system. The trouble is that the system is cut and dried and once the hirer has entered into the transaction he has no alternative but to allow the deduction to be made. The previous system, in my opinion, might have been a bit more liberal than what the board could possibly afford, but I should like the Minister to examine the question in the hope that he might find it possible to relax the present arrangement in some way.

The question of the erection of a deep-freeze plant at Dingle has been broached here on many occasions over a long period. I believe that, in the early stages, there was some difficulty in settling the contract for that project because of legal title to the lands which were required for the site. I understand that the question of title has been settled satisfactorily for several months past but, nevertheless, the contract has not yet been advertised. I have raised the matter here by way of question and I had hoped that by now a start would have been made. I regret to say that there does not seem to be any definite progress yet, so far as we can see.

The people in the area have been looking forward for a long time to the setting up of this very important plant, because it is so necessary to the general success of the fishing industry in the locality. At present many types of fish, which could be processed successfully in a plant locally, have, I understand, to go to Galway. The result is that the local market is erratic and the charges for transport, and other handling charges, tend to reduce the prices paid to an uneconomic figure. I hope the Minister will find it possible to do something about this project without undue delay, and arrange for the contract to be advertised and put in hands.

The Minister referred very fully to the matter of inland fisheries. There is not much that I have to say in that connection because we had an opportunity of discussing it recently on the Fisheries Bill. I looked, however, with interest at the Minister's statement regarding the conservancy fund which is being set up and on which there is still a good deal of confusion among fishermen who are directly involved and contributing to this particular source of revenue. I do not know whether the Minister made it clear in his concluding address on the Fisheries Bill that this fund will be isolated from the ordinary finances of the Department of Finance and that, in fact, the full amount that will be collected from the levy will go back into that fund, solely for the purposes for which it is intended. It would be very helpful if the Minister could repeat that assurance because fishermen in inland waters, who are contributing to this fund, are rather doubtful about the general application of the fund. What we want is to develop a rather high sense of civic spirit among inland fishermen because if that is not forthcoming no amount of money spent on protection will bring about the desired results.

We have reached the stage now when our fishermen should appreciate that they are being asked to co-operate with the Department in protecting a very valuable asset. It is an asset of great importance from the fisherman's point of view, because it is his livelihood and he should be expected to protect that livelihood in the same manner as he would protect his job on the farm or in the factory. Nevertheless, there is a certain amount of loose thinking among many fishermen as to the degree of co-operation that they should give to the local board of conservators in the matter of protection. What is required is some sort of national campaign under the auspices of boards of conservators and under the Inland Fisheries Trust and kindered organisations, to try to educate fishermen as to the practicability of it in the first instance, and in the second instance, the moral obligation which devolves upon them to protect their own property.

It is rather unfortunate that such a large amount of money has to be spent by the various boards of conservators in paying protection guards. Notwithstanding that expenditure, we still find evidence of illegal fishing on many rivers. In some cases the poaching is serious; in others, not so serious but I am glad to say that my experience in my own area shows it is on the wane. We should, however, not be satisfied until we can say that poaching has almost completely disappeared. Until then we will not be in a healthy position in regard to our inland fisheries.

In some of his recent speeches the Minister dealt with this matter very positively and objectively. He should avail of similar opportunities in the future to repeat what he has said. If he does so, I think he will eventually succeed in stamping out this practice. It would be too much to expect a 100 per cent. success but public representatives, both local representatives and Deputies, could co-operate by condemning this practice and making it plain to anybody who contemplates engaging in it that they can expect no sympathy if they are involved in a prosecution.

Mr. Wycherley

I spoke at great length on this debate last year. I am pleased that the Minister paid a little attention to what I said and went down to West Cork to verify for himself the matter to which I had referred. As a result of his visit to Bantry and Castletownberehaven, he had an opportunity of seeing for himself the great opportunities there awaiting development. You have the finest harbours in the world there and the fishing grounds are very convenient to those harbours. They are the best fishing grounds in the world. The fishing industry has been very neglected over the past 40 years. Since the end of the 1914-18 war, very little attention was paid to development. The result has been that to-day the men who should be experienced fishermen are no longer with us. The majority of them have gone to other jobs where they have more security and are sure of their weekly wage. They have gone to work in merchant shipping or have emigrated to foreign countries to seek a better life.

I need only quote what the Minister himself said in his statement last week. He said:—

"It would be a great pity if, through lack of interest on the part of our own people, we were forced to employ foreign fishermen to develop our fishing industry. But I must make it clear beyond all doubt that the supply of skippers to fishermen trained to fish in middle waters is an absolute prerequisite to develment. For that reason, I consider that if we cannot get Irish fishermen, we should employ others to begin with, now that we know markets are available."

I certainly do not blame the Minister for the present state of affairs. It is the result of years of neglect. The Minister has a big task before him to try and revive the interest that existed in this wonderful industry in the early 'twenties. It was looked upon as second to agriculture, but, like agriculture, it was sadly neglected. The result has been that we now have a depopulated coastline with a scarcity of fishermen.

As a result of the Minister's visit to Bantry and Castletownberehaven the people of the area are looking forward with great hope. We have a very fine port at Baltimore. Adjacent to it is the fishing yard of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, which was taken over some years ago during, I think, the term of office of Deputy Dillon. It was part of the Baltimore fishing school. It was a pity that when the boatyard was taken over the fishing school was not taken over as well. That school was built about 80 years ago for the training of young fishermen. When the fishing industry fell on bad times and the interest was no longer there, the men did not go into the school for training, just as the Minister finds it hard to get them now. The school was converted into a school for training other boys. It had also been used for making fishing nets. It supplied the requirements of boats all over the country and of countries outside Ireland. I know that because I was speaking to the manager and he told me it supplied nets not alone in this country but in other countries also.

Since the Minister has gone to Castletownberehaven and Bantry it is only right that he should complete his tour and pay a visit to Skibbereen and Baltimore. He should see the Baltimore boatyard and the fishery school and the great scope for development there. I have no doubt that if interest is shown in the development of that area, in a short time there will be no lack of fishermen who will be quite capable of putting to sea with very little training. It is absolutely necessary to get a lead from the top.

I have heard the complaints of the fishermen. I have listened to them with the greatest sympathy when they told me about the herring or mackerel which they sold for 1½d. or 2d. apiece down in Baltimore and which were retailed in Dublin for 1/- each. Yes, the cost of transport made the fish very dear, but with the development of the ice plants which are springing up all around the south and west coasts, there should be greater security, a lessening of the cost and a hope of a continuous and regular supply of fresh fish at a reasonable price.

In the urban towns of the country and in the small towns around the coast, it is impossible to get fresh fish any day of the week. The moment it is landed on the pier, it is put into boxes and transferred either to Cork or Dublin. Then, if a person wants it, he must have an order placed in advance and it is railed back again to the very town from which it came. That was the position in the past. It put fish at a prohibitive price for the vast majority of the people. I remember the day when it was quite easy to get fresh fish, but the more commercialised it became, the harder it became to get it.

There is a wide open door to be pushed now for An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. If they wish to develop the fishery trade in the towns, it can easily be done now, with the development of the ice plants there. The towns should be looked after. It will take some little organisation, but we have sufficient brains in the country to see that there is a supply of fish for the hotels and for those who want it, at least on a few days of the week.

I understand that the Swedish engineer will soon issue his findings on the harbours of the country which are most suitable for fishery development. I sincerely hope that the harbours in West Cork will get careful consideration, as they are excellent and safe for boats.

I should not like to see the Minister importing too many fishermen from abroad, for a start. We are always inclined to look at the foreigner as being a wee bit better than ourselves. We send our agricultural advisers to Denmark, Holland and other countries, and, on their return, they say we are away ahead of those peoples ourselves. Our fishermen and our farmers, if given a break and a fair bit of encouragement, are as good as those anywhere else.

I sincerely hope that when the Minister goes down to Baltimore, he will see fit to take over that school for the training of young boys for the south and west coast, from Cork and Waterford and Kerry, so as to have a sufficient number of them to man the fleet of boats which I hope will be built in the boatyard in Baltimore.

I see a great future for the fishing industry and I believe that, with the energy and ability of our Minister, in years to come, it will hold the place it should hold in the economy of this country. With our miles of coastline, this industry could be developed into one of the greatest fishing industries in the world.

I come now to our lakes and our rivers. There is a big leeway to be made up in the stocking of them. We have several in West Cork and, to my knowledge, nothing whatever was ever done to develop the fishing on the lakes and rivers of West Cork. It is a great tourist centre and tourists come to my area in large numbers. I was speaking last week to an angler who fishes regularly on the River Ilen, which flows beside the town of Skibbereen where I live. When they applied for help in the stocking of that river in this great tourist centre, they got no help whatsoever. The lakes and rivers, if properly stocked with salmon and trout, would certainly be a great medium for the development of the tourist industry in West Cork. The tourist industry is flourishing there, but another little pep on that line would help it very much.

If the Minister decides to come to West Cork, to Skibbereen and Baltimore, I can assure him of my fullest co-operation. It will not be like the case of Deputy Kyne in Waterford, who was there by accident. I shall be only too delighted to meet the Minister and will make sure that my colleagues, Deputy Cotter and Deputy Murphy, will be there also to lend a hand in the development of the fishery industry in West Cork and in Ireland.

Captain Giles

As a Deputy from an inland county, I do not know much about the fishing industry. However, I have been 20 years here and have heard much talk about its revival, so that it might become a great industry, but I have almost given up hope. The present Minister is a man of drive and ability and, if given the finance, he will make a good job of it.

We have too much talk and too little action. I do not like spoonfeeding. Everybody nowadays wants something for nothing; they want money poured into everything. The fishermen could look after themselves, if we gave up the talk about cheap money and cheap boats. If we give them a market here and abroad, they will get on with the job; they will co-operate and put up most of the money themselves. I do not believe in the crawling way, expecting to be spoonfed, morning, noon and night. Thirty or 40 years ago, the fishermen were not spoonfed and it was a splendid industry. Why is there so much crying and craving to-day?

If the fishermen are properly organised on a working basis, they can build up the industry themselves. We nearly killed Gaelic with doles and subsidies, whereas if there were a proper spirit and if the people were asked to revive the good things, for the good of the country, without expecting to be paid for it, we would be better off. A certain amount may be needed for the purchase of big boats, but a good deal can be done by the fishermen themselves.

I would ask the Minister to concentrate on the development of the home market. It is enormous and is not catered for in the least. In the Midlands, one cannot get fish of any type or quality from Sunday to Sunday, without going a long distance; and even then, it is of doubtful quality. I would like to see proper development of the home market, so that there would be a depot in every large and small town, with deep-freeze centres all over the country and a distribution centre whereby the fish could be got out to the people.

Not alone would the people in the Midlands eat fish on Friday, but they would eat it two or three times a week, if they could get it. All they do get is what is brought from Dublin or other centres by hawkers, and this is usually second or third-grade fish carried in a dirty van and sold by a man with no coat and of dirty, greasy and ugly appearance. Frequently, these people come with good fish and one buys it and is satisfied, but they come the next time with very doubtful fish; or again they come with fish you cannot eat at all and which, an hour after you buy it, has a strong stench. People get tired of it and turn against fish. Until there are proper distribution arrangements, deep-freeze depots and so on, this situation will not be remedied.

I believe the fishermen could get plenty of fish, if they wished. They will not seek fish for which they have no market and when they know they may have to dump their catches. This is something that the Minister could develop in a proper way—the arrangement for proper distribution. People from the Midlands will not go to Dublin once a week to buy fish. They should be supplied regularly with different varieties of fish in proper condition. They would pay reasonable prices for it, prices that represent a fair return for the fishermen. If the Minister concentrated on the marketing end of it, the fishermen would do most of the job themselves.

I am concerned regarding fishing on the River Boyne which is one of the most splendid fishing rivers in the country, with a good run of fish providing some of the best fishing in Ireland. Since Bord na Móna began draining bogs in the Midlands, an enormous amount of silt comes in from those bogs and there has been very little effort to get rid of it, with the result that the famous spawning beds of the Boyne and the Blackwater are silted up. There is now practically no such thing as spawning or, if there is, it is of no avail because the silt chokes the young fry.

I would ask the Minister to consult with Bord na Móna we put up this proposition before—so that something can be done about it. We do not want the river robbed of its fishing potentiality. It is the only river we have in that area and it was responsible for a fair amount of money being spent in the neighbourhood. If Bord na Móna and the Department get together, they should be able to do something to stop the silting which is ruining the fishing. There is no use in killing one good river while opening up others in the West of Ireland. We are entitled to our river. We were told that Bord na Móna were doing something and they made a couple of sinking holes here and there to catch the silt, but I do not believe these are much use, and, unless something is done before long, there will be almost nine inches of silt in the river bed and that will be the end of salmon fishing there.

There is a big scheme on hands to deepen and widen the harbour at Drogheda and, near this harbour, there is a fair-sized mussel industry out of which 40 or 50 people get a living. They are concerned about the harbour improvements and the effect they may have on their industry. We do not want to have the harbour improvements postponed. In fact, we are guaranteeing at least £10,000 from the county council towards that project, but at the same time the 40 or 50 men may lose part of their living by the construction work in the harbour. I should like the Minister to make a close inquiry into that situation, before the work proceeds, to ensure that the living of these men is not destroyed or, if it is, to ensure that somebody else will come to the rescue, the harbour board or somebody, by means of compensation. These men are just as much entitled to consideration as anybody.

There has been far too much talk about fishing and not enough being done about it. Little will be accomplished, unless some big project is undertaken. The Minister will require more money if he wants to go into deep-sea fishing. He will not get very far on what is provided in the Estimate. We should stop giving money to this person and to that person. Fishermen are a good type of people. They can get together and co-operate and put up most of the money required for their own industry. Do not let us spoonfeed people because I believe there is nothing as good as private enterprise where people can take off their coats and do the job themselves. The biggest task the Minister has is to open up markets for these people and provide proper distribution centres.

If that is done the home market can absorb all our fish for years to come. We are starved for fish in the Midlands and what we get is very often only third-grade fish. I believe fish is dangerous, if not in proper condition, and I would ask that the hawking business, which has killed fishing in the Midlands, should be stopped. Provision should be made so that one can go to the local village and get the kind of fish one wants when one wants it. If that is done, the fishermen around the coast will develop the industry rapidly and carry it on as they did 40 or 50 years ago, when they got no help from any Government.

The Minister has a big task, but I believe he is a man with drive and he is a member of a Cabinet with a powerful majority. I think that next year he will get more money for the development of the industry. If he does that and makes a good job of it, I shall come back and compliment him. It makes no difference on which side of the House he is, if he is a man who is able to pull his weight, I shall respect him for it. I hope, in the coming year, he will prove to be a man. Before he was appointed, I thought he would make an ideal Minister for the fishing industry, but I never thought he would make a good Minister for Lands.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Captain Giles

It was only a passing reference. In any case, the Minister is on trial and he has made a fair start, so far as the fishing industry is concerned. I believe he is in earnest and I trust that before his term of office expires, he will be able to show he is a good man in his job and deserves the respect of the nation. I trust we shall be able to pay tribute to him from this side as well as from the other side of the House.

Mr. Doherty

In the words of the Minister, there are plenty fish in the sea, if we go after it. The more I think of that fact and the more I see Spanish and English trawlers reaping the rich harvest of the seas around our shore, the more sleepless nights I have. I do not feel as depressed as some Deputies feel on this matter. As a public representative, I feel, that as far as my constituency is concerned, I have a duty in representing North Mayo, to say I believe that fishing is 50 per cent. of the answer to our problems. Therefore it is my opinion that this Estimate is one of the most important before the House. Since I have been elected I have, in a very short time, done my best in the interest of my constituency as regards fishing, to encourage the fishermen and help them to develop the industry in North Mayo. Personally I do not claim to have a great knowledge of fishing but I can honestly say that I have handled as much fish, cleaned it, packed it and sold it as any Deputy in this House.

We in North Mayo are confronted with two very serious problems, unemployment and emigration, and the answer to these problems lies in the hands, to a great extent, of the Minister. I have stated, on each occasion on which I spoke in this House, that the answer to those problems in my area is to give the people a living from the natural resources of the countryside by helping them to develop the fishing industry and by helping to develop our bogs. We have got the green light in regard to one of these and I appeal to the Minister to give it to us as regards fishing.

We have a tremendous fishing potential in North Mayo; we have there the finest bays and harbours, from Killala to Broadhaven and from Achill to Blacksod. About eight months ago I started working on the fishing industry in my constituency and I thought the first step to take was to visit each area as the previous Parliamentary Secretary had done in order to educate myself in the requirements of the local fishermen, find out about the bays and harbours, the slips and piers, the boats and fishing tackle. In the course of my tour, I held a few public meetings and a few private meetings and we discussed fishing in detail. I then approached the present Minister and asked him for his help and co-operation, and I take this opportunity of thanking him and the officials of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for all the help and co-operation I got from them.

As Deputies, whether in Opposition or in Government, we must formulate a policy which will give our men a genuine incentive to stay at home rather than have them going abroad seeking positions on fishing boats on the Continent. In visiting my constituency I found out, taking an overall view of fishing, that we are faced with five serious problems, problems on which neither we, as representatives, nor the Minister can afford to delay action if the fishing industry is to be developed in North Mayo.

The first of these problems is the improvement of our landing facilities; the second is to train our young men in the handling of modern fishing boats; the third is to encourage our fishermen to fish the whole year round and to encourage deep sea fishing. The fourth is a suggestion of my own, that we should encourage boat building and in conjunction with that, that there should be a special maintenance course as regards boat engines in all our vocational schools. I am glad to say, in regard to No. 4, that we have in my own town of Belmullet a teacher in the vocational school who has done the course in boat building at Mullingar. I am also glad to be able to say that ours is the first vocational school in Ireland to co-operate with industry in regard to the special maintenance course at the Glenamoy Experimental Station.

A fifth point is that if we hope to improve the conditions in the area for the future it is essential that we have a programme for that area as well as for other areas and other projects throughout the country.

In dealing with No. 1—the improvement of harbour facilities—I want to bring to the Minister's notice the position in North Mayo at present. I think that the Minister, in his planning for fishery development, should have a little more regard to geographical location. We, in North Mayo, have been left out in the past to a great extent except for one grant which was given by our Government for the improvement of Purteen Harbour in Achill Sound. We got that, along with the improvement of Porturlin pier which, I understand, cost in the region of £3,000.

I read in the issue of the Western People of 4th June, 1955, an article of special interest with regard to fishing. It was headed “The position as regards the fishing industry in North Mayo” and it is a statement which was made in Blacksod by the previous Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O. J. Flanagan. He went on to say: “Since becoming Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the fishing industry I have travelled to almost every important fishing centre in the Republic and I must say that I am particularly impressed with what I have seen in Blacksod. I am satisfied that, despite continuous neglect by the appropriate State Department, a prosperous fishing industry can be developed here and I am going to take all the steps necessary to provide the facilities required to improve the position of the wonderfully fine type of fishermen I have met in this area.”

Deputy Flanagan went on to say that a proper slip would be constructed at Blacksod in the very near future, that everything possible would be done to improve Faulmore pier and that negotiations in connection with obtaining a better place for fish would be diligently pursued. That was at a meeting at Blacksod. Later on in the day at a further meeting at Graughill where there was a large attendance of fishermen, Deputy Flanagan said: "I have been completely misled by the information submitted to me in connection with landing facilities here and the necessity for improving them." He went on later to say: "I will give to the fishermen of Graughill the facilities they so badly need." That was only part of the false promises used by the Opposition in the course of their stately visits to North Mayo. I could mention a few of the piers, slips and harbours that are required in my area which, as I have stated, I have visited and for which I feel I can put a genuine case to the Minister. I would ask him to use his good offices and, if necessary, to approach the county council of Mayo, for the sanctioning of the supplementary grants for this very important work. There are various arguments to be put up about harbours, slips and piers in my constituency. When I visited the Minister about six months ago, I asked him to send an official of the Department of Fisheries, together with an official who could advise me and the fishermen in regard to piers and harbour facilities. At this stage, again, I must thank the Minister for sending those officials. Before they visited the area, I sent a genuine order to the extent of £23,000 to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. This involved only five fishermen and I have in my possession the five letters that were sent from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara to those five fishermen. I asked those fishermen to meet the officials with me, to put up their arguments and to make a genuine case. I further asked them were they prepared to pay a 10 per cent. deposit on the Bord Iascaigh Mhara boats.

One of those boats was a 56-foot boat, costing £13,000; another was a 35-foot boat; and three of them were 28-foot boats. After the visit of those officials to my area, I got a letter from the Minister as follows: "Following on our discussion in February on the possibility of developing the fishing industry in North Mayo, I arranged to have a fishery officer from this Department and an official of the board visit the area. They have done so in the meantime and have, I understand, discussed the matter fully with you and other interested parties. There appears to be a prospect of development in Blacksod. There are good fishing grounds in the vicinity. The harbour there is not, however, suitable for the type of boat which would be required to exploit the fishing grounds. I am arranging, therefore, to have this aspect of the problem examined by the Office of Public Works engineers. It may also be possible to have it considered by an expert of international repute who is to report on fishing harbours generally. At other points in North Mayo harbourage for large boats presents a difficulty which could not, I understand, be surmounted except at an expenditure which would be out of proportion to the likely benefit."

A few weeks after receiving that letter, I read with delight that the Government had invited to this country a consultant from the international Food and Agriculture Organisation to advise us on fishing and on harbours. The first thing I did when I reached Dáil Éireann was to table what I would class a very important question as regards my constituency. I asked the Minister for Lands on May 8th:

"Whether, in view of the urgent necessity for providing suitable harbour facilities on the North Mayo coast for fishermen who wished to avail themselves of the hire-purchase facilities provided by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, he will arrange as a matter of priority to have that coast investigated at an early date by the Food and Agriculture Organisation harbour consultant whose services he has engaged."

In reply, the Minister for Defence, for the Minister for Lands, said:—

"It is not proposed to ask the consultant to give priority to any particular part of the coast."

I then asked:—

"In view of the fact that we have organised the fishermen in my constituency and that I have given a genuine hire-purchase order to Bord Iascaigh Mhara to the extent of £23,000, would the Minister not consider giving my area priority for the provision of harbour and landing facilities?

Mr. K. Boland: I am sure every area feels it should get priority. It was considered that the best thing to do was to give the consultant a free hand and let him select the areas for investigation."

I also asked the Minister on that day:—

"Whether in view of the provision in the Fisheries Vote for the construction of an exploratory fishing vessel, he will consider giving priority in survey work to the Blacksod and Achill area and the area from Broadhaven Bay to Killala Bay with a view to having them explored for deep sea fishing."

The reply from the Minister for Defence was:—

"The areas mentioned will be borne in mind in planning survey work to be undertaken by the exploratory fishing vessel but it would be premature to say whether they could be given priority."

At this stage, I appeal to the Minister, in a last and final effort, to help to develop the fishing industry in North Mayo and, in view of the fact that I have made representations to him, to give us priority in those very important matters.

In discussing Blacksod pier, it has been agreed by the Opposition and by our side that the proper thing for Blacksod Bay would be a slip. After visiting that area and discussing the matter with officials, I have come to the conclusion that a slip would be a waste of public money. What is really required is an extension of the Blacksod pier. It does not require anything elaborate like a concrete pier which would cost a large amount of money. We will not need anything like that, until we prove that our fishermen are prepared to fish the whole year round. I respectfully submit to the Minister that the extension by 100 yards of the Blacksod pier, a wooden pier with a slip at the end of it with the usual pulleys which would be used by two men to haul in anything up to a 50-foot boat on a stormy night, is all that is required. That would serve the Blacksod area, for a start. It would not cost the Government a fortune. It would also be useful to the people of Achill who are very enthusiastic about this very important industry.

There is another matter which I wish to bring to the Minister's notice. A gentleman who resides in Doohoma has bought a 40-foot boat out of his own pocket and is now prepared to buy an engine and to go fishing. The only safe landing place is Tullahaun Bay. On his way to Tullahaun Bay, he will have to pass by rocks which are covered at high tide and are very dangerous. Years ago, the rocks were marked by iron stands. After a few months, the stands disappeared. I would ask the Minister if it is possible to have the rocks marked. I do not think it would cost a lot of money.

There is one other question that I wish to raise before concluding, namely, the position in regard to the fishermen of Achill, County Mayo. It is only a small matter. I have done my best on a number of occasions to find out the position by inquiring at the Department of Finance, the Mayo County Council, the Department of Lands, but it still is a mystery to me. I would ask the Minister if he could let me know in the course of his reply the position in regard to the wooden jetty at Achill. It was a temporary jetty and I understand that it was taken down a few years ago and that the fishermen have applied time and again to have the jetty re-erected. There was a light on the jetty. The jetty was the only safe landing place in Achill Sound for fishermen. I would ask the Minister to look into the possibility of re-erecting that jetty.

Would the Minister also indicate, when replying, the number of certificated skippers for fishing boats in the country and also, in respect of North Mayo, the number of applications received for fishing boats under the Fíor-Ghaeltacht scheme and whether it is hoped to provide any applicants with boats in the near future.

I know the Minister is an enthusiastic man but enthusiasm can best be gauged by performance. I would appeal to the Minister to give us a break in North Mayo, to give us the boats and the tackle. During the war, Churchill asked America to give them the tools and they would complete the job. Give us the boats and the gear and we will help to develop the fishing industry.

Mr. Lindsay

I do not think there has existed ever since the day the early Christians adopted the fish as a symbol of their secret code, a more successfully kept secret than this alliance between the Minister for Lands and Deputy Doherty in the improvement of conditions for fishing in North Mayo over the past eight months. In the course of my speech on this Estimate, I shall come to deal particularly with certain matters referred to already by my colleagues from my constituency and, at the same time, to point out the gross inconsistencies, not alone in their approach, but in the content of their various speeches of studied advocacy.

This Estimate for the Fisheries Section of the Department of Lands is an important Estimate. At the risk of being rebuked by my colleague, Deputy Giles, about talking too much, I say it is an Estimate upon which Deputies from maritime constituencies and those who have the good fortune to live in constituencies where the more profitable inland fisheries are operating should make their contribution, because out of every contribution, there could or, at least, should come a certain proportion of good, whether the contribution is motivated by an honest desire to make a worthwhile contribution, on the one hand, or, on the other hand, by a desire to promote the interests of a particular political group.

In any industry, one can expect very little progress, unless there is substantial capital investment followed by the co-operation, enthusiasm and energy of all concerned, both the investor and those who work in the industry. It has been pointed out by other speakers that, in spite of the plaudits from the opposite benches as to the remarkable progress made by the Minister up to date and the wonderful things to be expected from him, the progress to be expected cannot be very great when one considers the Estimate and the very slight increase in it in the present year.

That, of course, I must say straight away, does not prevent very substantial planning for the years to come when, probably, financial stringency will not be operating in such a difficult manner as it is now. In this industry, as in nearly every other enterprise, planning on a long term basis is extremely essential, but, honestly, I cannot see any greater detail in the plans for the future as outlined by the Minister in his speech introducing the Estimate than was in the plans included in his speech last year. There is a great deal to be said for the viewpoint expressed by Deputy Giles, that our fisherfolk, if given the facilities that must be provided at larger cost, will do the job themselves, because, in my experience, they have been doing it over a considerable number of years, with very little help from any State Department.

I am speaking particularly at this juncture of the inshore fishermen and those who use the smaller boats. In fact, I am speaking of the part-time fisherman, part-time farmer, who lives on an uneconomic holding, such as we have in my part of the country and who supplements his income by fishing at the suitable times of the year when the opportunities offer themselves through seasonal movements of fish.

Co-ordination among all the interests concerned, the Department of Industry and Commerce through Bord Fáilte, the Department of Education through the vocational schools and the Department of Fisheries itself, should form the keystone of what I regard as essential for the development of the fishing industry. Presenting us with fish at a dear price is bad enough, but presenting us with fish which is cooked and offered for consumption to the public in such a manner as to make it distasteful is the one great deterrent to our development as a fish-eating nation.

The element of compulsion has never achieved anything very much and in that respect An Bord Iascaigh Mhara is doing a very good job, because, from my experience of it, its main characteristics would appear to be guidance and advice directed from a store of research built up over the short time they have been in operation, not forgetting the fact that they had the advantage of a considerable volume of research before they came into being.

I cannot agree with the Minister when he says he does not think the small centres can survive here any more than in Scotland. Very probably in Scotland they have not the same dual operation to which I have already referred, namely, the small uneconomic holding supplemented by fishing activities. I would deplore any aspect of Government policy that might be directed towards destroying the small man, part-fisherman, part-farmer, and in that respect piers, slips, harbours, boats and general maintenance are factors which must be taken into consideration.

Deputy Doherty has taken Deputy Oliver Flanagan to task for a speech he made on June 4th, 1955, at Blacksod and later on at Graughill, County Mayo. The facts are not such as Deputy Doherty might like the people to believe from the next issue of the Western People, when this speech of his will be read by those who read that paper. The facts are that a slip was sanctioned as a result of that visit of Deputy Flanagan at Blacksod. It was cleared in the Fisheries Branch of the Department of Agriculture, sanctioned by the Department of Finance in February, 1957, and sent to the Mayo County Council on the usual terms, that they would put up the 25 per cent. of the estimated cost and guarantee maintenance. It was not the first time that, as a result of the engineering advice available to that county council, the present Government Party, then in opposition, were able to persuade the county council of Mayo to reject that offer for the slip at Blacksod.

Similarly, in relation to Graughill, as far back as 1949 or 1950, there was made available a grant for the improvement of the slip there. It was kept on the long finger as a result of the efforts of Deputy Doherty and his then supporters and former colleagues in North Mayo, by reason of the fact that they were able to use the engineering advice available to the Mayo County Council in order to thwart the work of Deputy Costello's Government in those days.

Deputy Doherty has just informed the House, in the presence of the Minister and of the officials of the Fisheries Branch of his Department, that he came to the conclusion that a slip at Blacksod for the purpose of providing amenities for the lobster fishermen during the summer months would be a waste of money. I want to ask the Minister now to state specifically when he is replying, whether that conclusion reached by Deputy Doherty and stated here this evening in his presence, is the conclusion from the expert advice available to him in relation to that slip. If it is, then that expert advice has been directed into this channel by some queer means, because it was that same expert advice as was available to Deputy Dillon when the slip at Blacksod was sanctioned and cleared by the Fisheries Branch of Agriculture and the Department of Finance in February, 1957. Does this conclusion, drawn by a Deputy of undoubtedly tremendous experience and knowledge, bear weight with him? The lobster fishermen of Blacksod have been deprived of this amenity over the past two years, an amenity provided for them as a result of the efforts of Deputy Oliver Flanagan, then Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, and in the full implementation of the promise he made on June 4th, 1955, at Blacksod.

Both Deputy Doherty and Deputy Calleary—the latter having far more associations with the engineering advice available to the local authority of Mayo—know perfectly well what has happened down the years in relation to Graughill slipway. They know that a grant was sanctioned during the tenure of office of Deputy Costello's first Government. They know that it was further inspected during the period of Deputy Costello's second term of office and that it was blocked and impeded by the Government Party interests in my constituency as a result of the influence which they had with the engineering advice available to the local authority. That is the kind of national approach you get from the Fianna Fáil Party, when in opposition. Then, when they come into Government, we are expected to pay tributes to Ministers, to thank them for their wonderful interest, enthusiasm and great effort to get things for the people, thereby implying that nobody ever does anything but these newfound saviours of the people.

Porturlin pier was sanctioned during the term of office of Deputy Costello. Three other projects on the coast of my constituency of North Mayo were, over the past ten years, sanctioned, examined or recommended during Deputy Costello's two Governments. Let nobody, through the medium of this House or through the medium of local papers, try to give the impression that Fianna Fáil, in their great enthusiasm, have been the only providers.

So much for the improvement of landing-places. Now let us come to the second point in what I will call the five-point plan for progress enunciated here this evening. The training scheme for young men was in operation long before this Government took office. People from my constituency and from Deputy T. Lynch's constituency took advantage of this training scheme. Like the blocking and the thwarting of the piers, slips and runways, those people who took advantage of it were dissuaded by the local Fianna Fáil supporters at the time who advised them not to go to Galway for the course, as it was all cod.

It was just the same with the land rehabilitation scheme and the lime subsidy scheme. The people were told not to take advantage of them as they would increase the rates. That is the kind of patriotic endeavour we get from Fianna Fáil when they are in opposition. So long as I represent North Mayo, nobody will come into this House and seek to get away with whitewashing or hypocrisy without getting a full and adequate reply.

The third point in this five-point plan for progress was to encourage fishing and deep-sea fishing all the year round. The fourth point concerns boat-building and lobster-pot mending. The fifth point was a programme of some sort. Nowhere were we told how all this could be done, when it would be done or what would be the result of the wonderful liaison between the Deputies from my constituency and the Minister for Fisheries with secret visits by officials to the area. Nothing, that I can find out, has been done. No plans have been formulated.

The only item of any significance that has come to my notice over the past year has been the promise by Deputy Doherty to the people of Blacksod fishing area that a ball-alley would be provided for their amusement. When the lobster pots are unmended, when the boats are not available, when the slips are not made, merely because they were sanctioned by us, the fishermen of the area can always repair to the ball-alley and there amuse themselves. It was like the advice I heard given by a one-time Deputy of this House who was avoiding an issue that was a matter of controversy at the time. He rather asked the people in a constituency in Kerry not to forget their Irish dances and Irish music as it did not really matter whether there was anything in the pot or anything to put on the table. We shall have the same situation now with a ball-alley as they were to have at that time in Kerry-take out your old fiddle and play as they played in Kerry long ago.

That slip at Blacksod is necessary. It was considered necessary and desirable on the expert advice of the Fisheries Branch and of the officers of the Office of Public Works. It was sanctioned by the Department of Finance in February, 1957. I ask the Minister to see that that job is got on with, because the shellfish industry —lobsters and crayfish—is a very essential and integral part of the life of the people in that end of the Belmullet peninsula.

Deputy Calleary may well say that the currach is dead and that it is good to realise that fact. I do not know how that news will be received by people who supplement the earnings from their small-holdings in Belderrig, Graughill, Blacksod, Achill and elsewhere, from currachs. I do not know how they will receive that wonderful pronouncement from Deputy Calleary yesterday evening that the currach is dead and that it is good to realise that fact.

They do not appear to have anything else for Achill except the shark industry. There is no doubt that the shark industry is a good industry. There is no doubt that Mr. Joe Sweeney, mentioned by Deputy Calleary yesterday evening, deserves our best commendation for his enterprise in that matter. But when we examine all the facts of the case we make a discovery. When my colleagues examine it, if they have not done so already, they will be shocked to discover that it is not all private enterprise. In fact, private enterprise here has been rewarded by the Minister by the selection of Mr. Sweeney as a member of An Bord lascaigh Mhara, at a remuneration increased by £100 a year above that which was being paid to the members of the former board.

I should be surprised if Mr. Sweeney is taking that extra £100. I should be very surprised, and I am sure he is not because it was he who, as a member of the Mayo County Council, proposed that no employee of the county council, employed in a clerical or any other capacity, should receive any increase in salary, wages or allowances in the present financial year. I am sure he is being consistent and is not accepting any increased amount as a director of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. If he is receiving it, he will, as the Minister knows of his constructive activity in relation to wages in the Mayo County Council——

Mr. Cunningham

On a point of order——

Mr. Lindsay

Do I hurt somebody?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to refer to Mr. Sweeney's activities and it is not at all relevant.

Mr. Lindsay

It is relevant to this Estimate.

Mr. Cunningham

Apart from Mr. Sweeney's activities in the county council, is it in order to discuss a private individual here where he has no comeback and cannot defend himself on something which may not be accurate?

Mr. Lindsay

Never, if he is a member of Fianna Fáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is relevant, if he is a member of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. I do not know whether that is right or not, but I am taking the Deputy's word for it; but so far as his activities in the Mayo County Council are concerned, they are not at all relevant to the issue before the House.

Mr. Lindsay

I submit, Sir, that it is relevant to the acceptance of increased remuneration.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. It is the Minister's responsibility we are discussing here. If the Deputy thinks the Minister did wrong in giving this extra £100 he can criticise his action.

Mr. Lindsay

The Minister, prior to increasing the remuneration of the directors of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, should, first of all, have inquired from each and every one of his proposed appointees: "Are there any impediments to your accepting an increased remuneration?" If he had put that question, I am quite certain that in this case, it would have been answered: "Yes, because I am against any increases."

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is endeavouring to get the same point over again.

Mr. Lindsay

I can leave it at that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must insist that the Deputy leave it at that.

Mr. Lindsay

If the Chair will permit me to say so, it is rather remarkable that Deputy Cunningham shows such concern over a private person's name being mentioned in the House when he did not show any such concern yesterday evening when the same name was mentioned.

An Ceann Comhairle

Any Deputy is entitled to raise a point of order.

Mr. Lindsay

But the point——

An Ceann Comhairle

The point is that this is not relevant. No comment can be made on a Deputy raising a point of order. It is for the Chair to say whether or not it is a point of order.

Mr. Lindsay

Very good, Sir. Let us examine the policy of the Minister, the policy of Deputy Calleary and Deputy Doherty. Deputy Doherty was boasting here this evening about a £23,000 order for hire purchase of boats in the Blacksod area. He wants to get that into the Western People. He had it in before, but I do not think anybody believes him. He wants the hire purchase and he wants the small boats, the 56-footers and 35-footers, and that order, for his people in North Mayo.

Yesterday evening, Deputy Calleary, representing the same constituency and representing the same Party supporting the Minister, said: "Let us get rid of the small boats and stop giving boats on hire purchase, boats that will go out for a day's fishing and let us have no more boats that will run for home when bad weather is expected." Now, where are we? One man has £23,000 on hand for the hire purchase of small boats. The other man says: "Get rid of the small boats and stop giving boats on hire purchase." Is the Minister not in a terrible pickle—to use a suitable word on this Estimate—when he has to deal with conflicting opinions of that kind? What is he to do when Deputy Doherty's £23,000 order becomes a reality? Is he to send for Deputy Calleary and say to him: "Deputy Doherty wants me to give small boats, on hire purchase, to people in your constituency; you want to get rid of the small boats and stop giving boats on hire purchase. What am I going to do; whose view should prevail?"

Perhaps the Minister will tell us which view he accepts: the view that the small boats should continue to be made and be given out on the hire-purchase system, or the view that they should be got rid of altogether, thus accepting Deputy Calleary's urging in the matter? If the small boats go, or if hire purchase goes, Deputy Calleary's wailing about the Icelandic expert being no use in Belmullet, Portacloy and Blacksod will become a reality, because there will be no boats and there will be no fishermen.

Mr. Childers

All Mayo Deputies appear to exaggerate their points, including the present speaker.

Mr. Lindsay

On the question of exaggeration, in any sphere of public life, I am content to take second place to the Minister and I will leave the placings of his colleagues from my constituency to himself. This important industry for shellfish, lobsters and crayfish at Blacksod must be looked after and looked after quickly.

On this important matter of territorial limits, Deputy Esmonde last night urged that we should extend the limits of our territorial waters, as the Icelandic people have done. Perhaps there may be some difficulties in doing that to the same extent as the people of Iceland, but something should be done about it, if for nothing else than the psychological effect of safety it will provide for the people occupying the rather indented bays we have in North Mayo, Donegal, Galway and, in fact, in the whole of the north-western and southern coasts.

I do not believe that Spanish and British trawlers make such raids on our coast as we are sometimes led to believe. Sometimes, on their way out from shelter, they do a trawl; and whenever they have offended in this respect, I must pay a well-deserved tribute to our maritime service watching the coasts. I do not believe that the damage these trawlers do is as great as people say, except when they do a trawl moving out from shelter, as I have mentioned. I do not think it is a matter that should cause anybody, except a fisherman, sleepless nights. Deputy Doherty told us that these inroads of Spanish and British trawlers have caused him sleepless nights. I am quite certain that whatever caused him the sleepless nights, it was not the inroads of the trawlers in relation to fishing. The sleepless nights might be better explained by a simple reference to the line of the poem: "And Spanish wine shall give you aid, my dark Rosaleen."

Reference has been made by many speakers to the necessity for fish depots, the greater use of ice and to the presentation of fish to the customers in a better condition and fresh. Of course, that is certainly a very great essential in the fishing industry. You cannot present to your customers in any shape or form food that has decayed or has begun to go off in any way. The use of refrigerated lorries and, possibly by co-operation with C.I.E., the use of refrigerated wagons on the railways, should be considered. As I said last year, C.I.E. could take the benefit of the very good example given in this respect by a private enterprise, the Donegal Railways, to the Killybegs fishermen.

I remember speaking on this question of fish preservation, packeting and marketing in general and saying that aluminium, while somewhat dearer than wood, is nevertheless cleaner and more lasting. It is lighter for the purpose of carriage and is the better way of dealing with the packing of fish. It is coming into use at the moment at quite a decent rate.

The Inland Fisheries Trust is doing a tremendous job. It is the kind of job that goes on so quietly, nevertheless efficiently, that very few people, except those interested in what is going on, know about it at all. But the immensity of their job and the success attending it right up to the present is reflected in the increased interest there is in angling, not alone on the part of visitors from abroad but within the country on the part of our younger people who have formed angling clubs.

In this respect, there is a matter I should like to bring to the Minister's attention. There are smaller rivers, not privately owned, but in the possession of the Department of Lands, which angling clubs sometimes seek to rent. While they may not offer as much as some private owner, either local or foreign, nevertheless, they should be given preference, once it is established that the application comes from a reputable angling club and that the members of the club are genuine in their efforts not alone to indulge in angling as a sport but to take all the necessary and possible precautions to see that the location and venue of their angling is preserved as an amenity.

Such rivers should be given to them, even though their offer might be lower than that of an individual tenderer. If that is not done, what happens in a country locality where there is a small club? What happens if they do not get access to the river? Every one of them becomes a potential poacher. That is a system to be deplored by everybody on all sides of the House. It is something that is costly to the industry, and I think it was referred to by the Minister himself as not being an Irish sport.

The matter of the stocking of lakes is a very important aspect of their work. In addition to that, a considerable amount of research has been undertaken. There is a research centre at Traenlaur, near Newport, where work of tremendous interest has been done. The Minister himself has visited the place since he took office. We cannot fail to notice the tremendous interest taken in deep-sea angling in Westport in South Mayo at the present time. That is something to which we can point as a great result of private local enterprise, where anglers from all over Western Europe and Britain are brought to Westport for this particular week. In that respect, it is a boon to the town and an incentive to the further development of such like interests.

In the course of his introduction to this Estimate, the Minister made it a strong point that political influence did not operate with him in the allocation of boats, or indeed in any aspect of his work which might come under the term of patronage. I accept that from the Minister, but until such time as he dissipates the illusion which is being created, not alone in my constituency but in many others by Deputies of his Party that political influence can work the Minister and that they cannot expect to get a boat unless they come under the aegis of the Fianna Fáil Cumann, there is no point in it. As regards the preservation of respect for public institutions there is no point in the Minister making such wonderfully neutral and commendably patriotic utterances, while on the other hand his satellites, particularly in my constituency, give the exact opposite impression, that they have the Minister in their pocket and can get anything they want for anybody.

Mr. Calleary

Incorrect.

Mr. Lindsay

I hope I am hearing correctly what Deputy Calleary is saying: "And correct"?

Mr. Calleary

Incorrect. I am longer in North Mayo than you are.

Mr. Lindsay

Is the Deputy addressing me or the Chair? I repeat that the Minister's pious utterances about political patronage are useless, as long as Deputies of his own Party, and particularly those in North Mayo, go around giving the impression that you cannot get a boat, you cannot get a net, you cannot get a house, you cannot get a bit of land, unless you are a supporter of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Dillon

Sir, I often despair when I listen to the debate in this House on Fisheries. It is a subject near to my heart and of which I have some experience. Really, when I hear Deputy Calleary laying it down as the essential desideratum of fishery policy that we should procure ships which would bring in fish when the sea was rough, so that the proprietors could sell their fish on a dear market, I begin to despair. Does Deputy Calleary ever ask himself why fish is scarce when the sea is rough? Because those who have the boats cannot sail on the surface, and, as yet, Deputy Calleary's ambition of equipping fishermen with submarines has not been realised. There is only one ship that can go to sea in rough and stormy weather, and that is the submarine. If Deputy Calleary has in mind that revolutionary innovation for the fishermen of North Mayo, then God help the fishermen of North Mayo in the counsellor they have chosen.

I listened, Sir, with alarm and dismay to the tone of the debate as conducted by the Minister and the Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party. I was responsible for fishery policy before this House for several years and I laid it down again and again from the Front Government Bench that the primary purpose of the fishery policy of the Government of this country was to secure the well-being of the proprietary fishermen of our west, north and southern coasts and that our aim was to ensure that the fishermen would own their own boats, go to sea with their own crew and share amongst themselves on an equitable basis the proceeds of their labour. To that end, and to that end only, was the Government of this country prepared to justify relatively high prices for fish to the consumers in this country. I emphasised also that we were prepared to say that it was legitimate to charge relatively high prices—bearing in mind the superior quality of the fish the consumers get in this country when they were getting it from our own fishermen—in order to protect the legitimate interests of the 1,613 fulltime fishermen and their families who were engaged in this business. Remember, there are many part-time fishermen also.

If I started a factory with a chimney on it and smoke coming out of the top of it and planted it in the immediate vicinity of Dublin, Cork or Limerick to employ 1,613 men, I would have been hailed as the saviour of the nation; but because we planted that "factory" all along the west, north and south coast of Ireland and got a livelihood for these fishermen, this business is regarded as "a problem business," something that caused great anxiety to every Deputy in this House. It is providing a good livelihood for 1,613 families in the most inaccessible part of Ireland and is providing the consumers of this country with a better quality fish than is possible in any city in England. I make no apology for that.

If the price structure on our domestic market is to be maintained in order to bring in Swedes, Greeks, Norwegians and Icelanders, in order to fish from our shores and sell their surplus here, and wipe out the 1,613 families who are living out of this industry at the present time, then I think the whole thing would be a dirty "cod." Bear this in mind—when I was Minister in charge of Fisheries, I did not go out looking for people who wanted to install trawler companies here. I was chasing them away. I remember two international trawler companies coming to me, on the one day, asking a licence from me to set up a trawler company based upon this country, with a guarantee that they wanted nothing from the Government but access to our domestic market on the terms then existing, and undertaking to export the surplus. I told them to go to blazes, that by decided policy of our Government we had reserved the domestic market for fish for the coastal fishermen and that we did it because we knew of no other way of getting a decent livelihood for the 1,613 families who were getting a good living out of it.

What is all the claptrap about getting foreign trawlers? Put a notice in the papers to-morrow that foreign trawler companies can base operations on this country and you will have half a dozen of them clamouring at your door. Let us realise this. I had two of them coming to me in one day and on half a dozen other occasions and I ran them. I did not want them. There was one firm in Dublin that had four old crocks of trawlers which they used bring in here and take the cream of the catch for themselves to the grave disruption of the rest of the market here and my principal aim was to get rid of them. I was told, when I was in office, by this particular company that not all the money in the Bank of England would compensate them for the staggering loss that would be involved if they went. Yet I was scarcely six months out of office when they went out of business after trying to persuade me to give them £250,000 compensation.

There is more tripe talked in this House about the fishing industry by people who know sweet Fanny Adams about it than on any other topic except agriculture. It is a mystery to me why the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries are afflicted as they are with every crank, fraud and cod in the country who has persuaded himself that he can run it and knows all about it.

I am glad to see that the landings of wet fish in 1957 increased to 41 per cent. more than in the previous year. I wonder will the Minister be able to say as much at the end of 1958. I hope he will, and that there will be an increase of 41 per cent., but before we go to town on that happy event, ought we not ask ourselves, if 100,000 cwt. of that increase was represented by herring, what does the problem of marketing herring involve here? In one of the flightier moments of the Minister's address he informed us there was an unlimited market in Britain for herring——

Mr. Childers

We are selling them there.

Mr. Dillon

Why did we not collect all the herring available and deliver it in the last 12 months to Great Britain if there is an unlimited market there? There is an unlimited market in England for herring when we have not got it, but when we get it very often there is a glut of it on the market and you cannot put herrings in a glass case, take them out and sell them, as Deputy Calleary would like to do, when there is a scarcity.

Mr. Calleary

You can can them.

Mr. Dillon

You can what?

Mr. Calleary

You can corn them salt them.

Mr. Dillon

And we are all expected to drop down dead at the announcement that we can salt herrings. One would imagine no Deputy had ever seen a red herring or a kipper. Does Deputy Calleary believe that to be revolutionary? Does he want us to throw our hands in the air and say. "No? Is that so?" Does Deputy Calleary know that our people have been salting herrings for seven centuries?

Mr. Calleary

I have seen them; I have lived near enough to them.

Mr. Dillon

For goodness' sake! Here is the pattern of expertise produced for us; he has seen a salted herring. The Deputy would want to see a lot more than one salt herring before he proposes to reform the fishing industry of the country. Are we going to conduct a thorough research into the habits and customs of herrings? There are Deputies who believe that the Minister is going to sea like an ancient Viking quite oblivious of the fact that research has been proceeding on the shoaling of herring from the dawn of time and nobody has found the answer yet. Is there an expert, Scandinavin, Antartic or otherwise, who can tell me or anybody else why herring shoal at Dunmore East all of a sudden and after two or three years you do not see a herring in the vicinity perhaps for a period of seven years? Is there anybody in the whole world who can tell me why it is that at one time mackerel infested Dingle and suddenly disappeared? If there is, I never heard of him. I do not believe there is anybody in the world who knows the answers to the question: how, where and when do herring shoal?

Mr. Childers

They know some of the answers.

Mr. Dillon

They know they are herring and that they swim. They know they shoal and we all know that, but where, how and when I do not believe anybody knows.

I am not condemning the Minister for contemplating any revolutionary departure in trying to control that. I once advocated the fertilisation of Galway Bay with superphosphate of lime in the belief that it would increase the plankton content of that confined belt of water in the hope that that might result in perennial shoaling of herring and increase the wet fish population of that confined area. I remember the hoots of derision from some of the Fianna Fáil wiseacres. "He is going to try to blow the rocks out of Connemara and the fish into Galway Bay" they said. I do not complain about the Minister strenuously, eagerly and energetically pursuing any constructive course but what maddens me about the Minister's supporters is that one would imagine, listening to them, that no one has ever thought of this until he did it when I know there are men who have devoted their lives to the welfare of our fishermen with zeal unmatched by any member of this House.

"The demand for herring alone is far above our capacity to supply." What does that mean? I think these phrases are fraught with dynamite because they are so ambiguous. Does the Minister really mean that we can freely sell at remunerative prices all the herrings we are capable of landing in a fresh state in the British market? Of course he does not mean that at all. He means that if the herring shoal at the time we want them to do so, in a place where we can reach them and if there is a scarcity of herring at that period in Great Britain there are 50,000,000 people in Britain, a great number of whom eat herring. That is a very different proposition from saying that there is in Britain a demand for herring alone far above our capacity to supply. If it were as easy as that, we could haul the herring in, send it over to Great Britain and sell it, but if we did that at certain seasons and in certain circumstances we would find it would cost a great deal more to haul it in and ship it to Britain than the British would be prepared to pay for it.

Instead of making general statements of that kind the Minister would be very much wiser to try to state precisely and clearly what is the problem of marketing herring in a situation like Dunmore East. I believe that the problem is relatively simple of solution. I believe it can be true to say that our capacity to use an unlimited quantity of herring is real and easily assessable and it was in that conviction that I arranged to have a fishmeal factory built at Killybegs because I believe the key to the solution of this problem is to set up a fishmeal factory in a suitable centre, bearing in mind that the procedure is constantly fraught with the danger that the herring will desert the coast on which you place the factory. If they do, you "have had it," but you cannot help that. You must take that risk. I think you probably ought to build another fishmeal factory in the vicinity of Dunmore East. You must take the risk of doing that. It is like buying the sire horse for the National Stud. You must expend £100,000 or maybe £150,000 in the knowledge that you may be buying a cab-horse and you will not know that until perhaps two years afterwards.

When you build a fishmeal factory you may spend the money uselessly. That is a risk you must take. But if the risk comes off and when the fishmeal factory is built and the equipment installed, you can then say to the fishermen on that coast: "Land all the herring you like. The sky is the limit. Sell as much of it as you like or, as you are fit, as we say in Northern Ireland, at fresh prices, that is to consumers who are prepared to pay prices of fresh fish, and these are usually the best prices. Then sell as much as you can to the curers." These are the people dear to the heart of Deputy Calleary. "When that demand is exhausted then come to me and I shall take a ton, 100 tons, 1,000 tons or 10,000 tons at the price which will enable me to sell fishmeal on the international market without profit. I shall convert, process and market your entire surplus of herring no matter what size it is, but I can only do that at the price which the international market will pay for fishmeal. And remember, not for white fishmeal but for herring fishmeal. That is the keystone of the Norwegian fishing industry."

If we are not prepared to face that fact and build upon it there is no future for herring fishing in this country. Anybody who wants to build up the idea that there is a market here for all the herring our fishermen can catch, as the Minister did, knows that it is all my eye and Betty Martin. It is all cod and dangerous cod. If you get it into the minds of your fishermen that there is an unlimited market for all the herring they can catch you are not telling them the truth. If they act on your advice they will experience bitter disillusionment and they will not believe you again. I tell the fishermen now that there is not a fresh fish market for all the herring they can catch at fresh fish prices but there is an unlimited market for all the herring they are able to land at the three price levels I have mentioned—(1) fresh market fish prices, (2) the fish curer and (3) to sell the surplus for fishmeal and there the sky is the limit. That is the truth about herring fishing in this country and that is how we can build a growing and valuable trade for the herring fishing of this country if we go forward resolutely with this plan and tell no lies.

In column 894, of Volume 169, we have the Minister saying that we have adopted two of the off-shore fishing vessels operated by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara to accommodate four trainees on each. These are the old German trawlers. Have we still got the German trawlers? They were the worst things ever brought into this country. The engine fell out of one of them before ever it got here and in another the engine fell out after it went to sea. We never had more than one of them at sea at the same time. When I was left responsible for them we were wondering whether we should sell one of them, immobile, as it stood, or whether we should spend £30,000 on refitting it, re-engining it and selling it in a mobile rather than in a static condition.

The fact is that these German trawlers were bought by my predecessor between 1951 and 1954. When I came back to office they were there. I went down and had a cup of tea on one of them and a very nice cup of tea it was. I think that, in dealing with these trawlers, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara had in mind the illusory idea of Deputy Bartley who really believed that he was cut out to be a fishing magnate. The fact of the matter is that those things never moved out and he never got the chance of going down to Galway, taking command of Bartley's trawlers and going to sea standing in the prow of one of them like Lord Nelson.

The more sane people in An Bord Iascaigh Mhara said that they would use these boats for training fishermen up to the point where they could get their master's certificates and that those who had that certificate would then be eligible to take charge of the boats with the more modern equipment which would be delivered from the shipping yards for the board. There was some sense in that because when we came to operate the Gaeltacht boat scheme the first boat was allocated to Donegal. We then sought to find suitable allottees for it. They were to be native Irish speakers, coming from Irish—speaking homes. We got three excellent fellows but then we discovered that while they were all eminently qualified to take a relatively small boat to sea when they were confronted with the 50-foot boats, with all the navigation aids that had been provided, they did not know how to take them to sea.

Furthermore, the larger size of these boats attracted the attention of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and he refused to let them go to sea unless they were in charge of a man with a master's certificate and then we found that we had not got a single Irish-speaking fisherman in Donegal who could qualify for a master's ticket.

What we did then was this: we got the services of an officer of the Naval Service and asked the Minister for Defence to allow him to take the boat to sea with the allottee and his crew on board on the understanding that, if after one year's training the allottee qualified for his ticket, the naval officer would then hand the boat over to him to use.

The naval officer faithfully discharged his duties. The allottee qualified for his master's ticket and took the boat and then, I believe, the naval officer resigned from the navy and became a fisherman himself and took two boats to sea. He exchanged his uniform for the fisherman's jersey. That is like the bank clerk who stood behind the counter in a bank where fishermen kept their accounts. He watched them for three or four years; then he jumped the counter of the bank and now has a fisherman's jersey on him. Instead of standing behind the bank counter he is now coming to the bank. He is growing in prosperity and status, but that is by the by.

I am endeavouring to explain the justification the board has in mind for maintaining these three trawlers. They were regarded generally, but it was never said to me by anyone in An Bord Iascaigh Mhara as "Bartley's Folly" but it was hoped out of that folly to salvage something by way of instructing mariners. I do not believe in that. The Minister is now going to put Bartley's Folly to sea again and put four trainees on each boat. I do not know which is the better way, whether it is better to train men on their own boats as we did at Helvic and in Donegal, or whether it is better to hope to get four chaps to come from Connemara and Donegal to the North Wall, and live down a side-street off the North Wall while they are being trained on these boats. I think my way is the better way.

Under the scheme I operated they were trained in their own boats. They were trained in the ways of their own boats and in the handling of their own boats. They will now be trained on Bartley's Folly and, if I know anything of the performance heretofore of "Bartley's triplets," the performance of any boat from an Irish boat yard will differ fundamentally and radically. If they do not, the poor allottees will spend a considerable part of their lives on dry land while the boats are in the repair shops. I give the Minister this advice: sell Bartley's triplets and start off again. If you want to train fishermen consider again the device which has been employed heretofore of choosing the allottee on his skill and reputation as a hardworking fisherman and, having chosen him, furnish him with the necessary skill and instruction on his own boat until he is qualified, on the understanding that if he does not qualify within a reasonable time another allottee will be chosen.

At column 897 of the Official Report, the Minister is reported as saying:

"I am convinced that the operation of boats issued on hire purchase is not completely satisfactory. In good weather conditions many boats are not fishing long enough to pay their hire purchase charges although similar boats fishing in the same waters are able to discharge their obligations."

I must confess that comes as a revelation to me. I was unaware of such a situation obtaining anywhere and I would be grateful if the Minister would disclose how and when that situation developed. Frankly, I never heard of it when I was in the Department of Fisheries and, without mentioning names, I should be obliged if the Minister would mention some specific cases of boat men in arrears, and indicate to us where this accumulation of arrears is due to culpable negligence on the part of fishermen. It may be so. I am not making the case that all fishermen are angels or archangels and that they are incapable of misdemeanour. They are all human like the rest of us. They are not perfect but it does surprise me to hear there are allottees of modern boats who are not fishing them with sufficient diligence to enable them to pay what is due.

At column 897 of the Official Report the Minister is further reported as saying:—

"Much better results could be expected from boats of say, 72 feet in length. We are the only maritime nation without middle water trawlers and this state of affairs cannot continue. We must proceed to provide some larger boats which will successfully engage in fishing at greater distances from our coasts."

I want to warn Deputies that if you travel that line your logical end is steam trawling, and steam trawlers mean the ultimate obliteration of the 1,613 whole-time and part-time fishermen who are at present fishing their own boats on the West, North and South coasts of this country.

The reason is perfectly simple. If you operate steam trawlers you must land fish in sufficient quantity that you will not only supply the entire domestic requirements of fish but have a large surplus to export. If, with one fleet of steam trawlers, travelling 14 days to the fishing grounds, spending seven days on the fishing grounds, and travelling 14 days back to port, with a cargo of ice on the way out and a cargo of iced fish on the way home, you maintain that in steady sequence you will flood this market with fish with only a small part of an economic fleet for whom this market will be relatively small. Their profits will be made on the regular distribution of their surplus, off-loaded in Great Britain, France or at whatever other port happens to be convenient to the trawling ground where they operate. With a flooded market the 50-foot boat has no hope at all.

I may be outdated but, as recently as two or three years ago, a decision on policy was taken that of the various sizes of boats, 30-, 40-, 50-, 60-, 70-, 90- and 100-ft. boats, bearing in mind our portal facilities and the circumstances of the men who were conducting the trade, the 50-ft. boat was the safest, most efficient and most accessible to the kind of fishermen whose interests we were concerned to promote. If you want to substitute for that an entirely different type of boat then the logical end is the steam trawler.

I want to remind Deputies of a matter about which I reminded them once before, but time has a short memory. I remember standing on the pier at Rathmullen when a steam trawler put in. The local marine surveyor was called on board, brought down to the hold where there was a sack lying in the corner, and was asked to perform his functions with dispatch because the trawler captain wanted to get on with his job. The function assigned to him was: "Get that carcase off my boat. That fellow broke his neck yesterday. I want him off my boat." I still remember the marine officer asking: "Who is he?" And the answer: "I do not know, his name is Jack; we picked him up in Glasgow. I know nothing about him; I care nothing about him." The man was dead and the skipper only wanted to have the body removed.

If that is what we want in lieu of what is known at the moment, the owner operators of the 50 foot boats, then get the trawler fleet, get the Icelandic captain, get the Scandinavian instructor, operate 700 miles from the coast of Ireland and, in my judgment, you will have thrown away something which for this nation is a precious asset, and you will get something which, in my judgment, will be a curse on those condemned to go down to the sea in ships. There are two points of view I agree but I am happy to feel my colleagues in the Fine Gael Party share my point of view. If the modern minds of Fianna Fáil prefer steam trawlers to the fishing life we have known, then let them go to it but I would be surprised if the fishermen of Ireland endorsed that policy.

In this country we have reduced the science of passing the buck to a finer science than almost any other country in Europe. We have now called in the F.A.O. to survey the harbours. At column 898 the statement occurs:—

"It now seems essential to develop a few of them specifically as fishery harbours with the necessary berthage, slips and shore installations including cold stores, freezing equipment, production of ice, reduction plants, etc. We have looked for guidance in this to F.A.O. and on their recommendation have employed a Swedish engineer of international repute to advise us on which harbours could best be developed in a large way as fishery harbours. He is at present in this country working on the problem. This does not mean that the other harbours should be abandoned; far from it."

Does not it make a cat laugh? There is in the Fisheries Section at this moment, to my certain knowledge, an exhaustive illustrated survey of every potential fishing harbour on the coast of Ireland which was completed not four years ago. Now we are going to get F.A.O. to do it all over again.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy is wrong in that.

Mr. Dillon

I wish Deputy Oliver Flanagan were beside me. He used to have me smothered in portfolios of photographs as long as this Front Bench, giving every angle of every potential harbour along the South and SouthWest coast. There were so many of them that I freely confess I never got round to studying them all but I saw a great many of them and I am perfectly certain that Deputy Blowick, the former Minister for Lands, saw them too. What has become of them? Are we to photograph all the harbours again, only this time with a Swedish camera, or it may be that we are going to do it all in technicolour to make it look more life-like? Whatever we are going to do, it is pretentious cod. It is all there in the Department and has been there for years but we did not make a song and dance about it. To give credit where credit is due, I think it was Deputy Bartley who got it done. I am not taking credit for it. It was there, or in process of being done, in my time. Certainly, some of them were there and, if the Minister does not know about it, let him consult Deputy Bartley and he will tell him.

At column 899 the Minister is reported as saying:—

"In the last six months a number of quite large projects have emerged, some of which I expect to come to fruition. The construction of a commercial fishmeal factory at Killybegs is already well advanced."

Observe, he does not say that the construction of a commercial fishmeal factory started in the last six months but do you remember that the Taoiseach did not say at Westport that he would not reduce the food subsidies? What he said was: "Somebody will say that I am going to reduce the food subsidies but they say all sorts of queer things about me." You listened to that. You paid your money and you took your choice. The Minister for Lands, Mr. Childers, does not say that a fishmeal factory was started in the course of the last six months. Here is what he says:—

"In the last six months a number of quite large projects have emerged some of which I expect to come to fruition. The construction of a commercial fishmeal factory at Killybegs is already well advanced."

Would you ever expect from that declaration that the construction of a commercial fishmeal factory at Donegal was all settled and arranged before the name of Deputy Childers as Minister was ever heard? You would not. It does not matter who arranged it, so long as it is put there.

Mr. Childers

I mentioned it on last year's Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy has the glorious confidence of every Fianna Fáil politician in the shortness of public memory and, whatever he said on last year's Estimate, that is what he said on this year's Estimate. Let us read it again:—

"In the last six months a number of quite large projects have emerged some of which I expect to come to fruition. The construction of a commercial fishmeal factory at Killybegs is already well advanced."

The note that I put beside that on my copy of the Official Reports is: "Disingenuous."

I have dealt with the desirability of putting a fishmeal factory at Dunmore East because I think that is now probably as good a herring port as we are likely to pin point, with the present information at our disposal, in the South-East of Ireland but we have got to remember that the herring may leave Dunmore East to-morrow and that Dunmore East may not see them again for another seven years or that they may be back in six months. That is a chance we have to take and I think we ought to take it.

At column 901 the Minister is reported as saying:—

"I have been told that in a developed fish industry up to 14 people are employed on shore for every one on a boat."

Between yourself and myself, I do not think that means anything at all. It just sounds well. He went on to say:—

"It may be necessary to invite landings from foreign trawlers to secure adequate supplies of some fishery products for the export trade."

I just do not know what he means by that.

Mr. Childers

It is clear enough.

Mr. Dillon

I do not know. If he means that, if he places a new fish-meal factory at Dunmore East and that the supply of fish does not come to expectations in the initial stages, he might buy fish afloat to bring it in to keep the factory working rather than allow it to stand idle, I can understand that but if he contemplates purchasing fish for distribution in this country I regard such a departure as wholly undesirable. I believe he is toying, possibly, with the idea of canning fish. I do not know what the merits of that are. We tried time and again to can herrings in this country and it did not work but I am bound to tell the House that I was told by people who ought to have known that it would work and they did put very substantial sums of money into it and lost it but it may have been that they had not the necessary know-how.

I remember one man coming to the Department and inquiring from us as to whether we could guarantee supplies of herring if he undertook their canning and I remember An Bord Iascaigh Mhara saying, "Do not touch that, Minister. We do not handle herring" and saying to them, "This will not do. Here is a man prepared to give large employment"—I think it was in Waterford—"to put his own money at risk and the only requisition he makes of the Department is that we would guarantee a steady supply of herrings." I said, "I do not care what it costs, I believe we ought to be able to say to him, ‘Yes, we will guarantee supplies to your country of such quantity of herring as you may require for economic operation'." We did. But, despite the performance by the Department of their part of the undertaking, I think money was lost and the experiment had to close down.

I do not say by any means that that is conclusive evidence that the thing cannot be done. It is being done in other parts of the world and I do not say that it could not be done here, but it is not as easy as just saying, "Let us can herring" because there seem to be very substantial snags in it.

I turn now to that part of the Minister's speech which dealt with inland fisheries. Deputy Calleary is gone. Deputy Calleary was talking last night and, in the fullness of his heart, he poured forth a flood of praise upon the Inland Fisheries Trust. Hoping to help him along, I said, "Hear, hear!" I declare to goodness, he nearly leaped out of his breeches. He shook his gory locks at me and said he would not be intimidated. I was quite alarmed. I was only trying to give him a little colleague's support but he resented it. He was quite vexed. The truth suddenly dawned on the man that he had put his foot in it up to the hock because, of course, I started the Inland Fisheries Trust and he did not think of that when he suddenly commenced to praise it and in the middle of his eloquence, this thought came to his mind and he became passionately angry and shook his gory locks. However, I am sure he realises that his fury is ill-judged and misplaced.

I am delighted to see the progress made by the Inland Fisheries Trust and I make bold to add my voice to that of the Minister, in saying that the Minister speaks perfectly truly and most fortunately in stating emphatically in public, as I do, that there never has been, there is not now, and, so far as I know, there never will be, any purpose in the Inland Fisheries Trust to nationalise the fisheries of this country. The whole basis of the Inland Fisheries Trust is to collaborate with the local angling associations. So far as I know, and the Minister confirms it, the Inland Fisheries Trust does not want to function in any area where they are not welcome invitees of local fishing interests. They want the local angling association to be the prime moving factor in the improvement of the fishing waters of their particular area, and in growing measure to realise the ready willingness of the Inland Fisheries Trust to help them and to work with them, but never to supplant them.

I should like to say, in that connection, that because we began the Inland Fisheries Trust with our minds focussed on brown trout, we never intended that the Inland Fisheries Trust should touch salmon or sea trout; but before we were at it very long it became clear that, valuable as the trout fisheries were, there was immense potential value for a tourist trade in the coarse fishing; and fortunately the versatility of the trust proved to be such that they were able to equip themselves to help on in that work, too.

From the beginning, I had impressed on the Inland Fisheries Trust the desirability of building up the canals as suitable and desirable centres of coarse fishing. It is common knowledge that in the midlands of England, the canals are crowded every Saturday afternoon and Sunday with people from urban centres, and that the passion for coarse fishing there is so strong that there is an understanding amongst all those who fish on the canals of the North Midlands of England, that they never keep a fish they catch, because if everybody kept his fish there would be no fish left. Therefore, everyone solemnly goes out, hooks his perch, hauls it out most carefully, removes the hook, pats the perch on the back and puts it in again. You may catch the same perch half a dozen times in the day and not know it. But the sport is so rare and so desirable that they all sit there, catching these old friends of theirs, stroking them on the back, and putting them back in the water again. In our case, they can come here and enjoy our fishing, as free as the flowers in May, certain that any perch they can catch they may keep or give to their friends or do what they please with, because there is a great abundance.

Could Deputies believe that in the early stages, when we cleared the coarse fish out of the trout waters of this country, they were bought and conveyed in tanks from the West of Ireland to the Manchester Ship Canal and put out there? When that traffic was put on, I suggested to our friends at home that if it was desirable to ship them in tanks to the Manchester Ship Canal, it would be, in my reasonable submission, very much more desirable to ship them to the Royal Canal or the Grand Canal and let them loose there. That idea, I think, has been followed— but, in fact, they have been very largely transplanted to lakes and rivers which are determined by local angling interests and by the experts in the Fisheries Trust to be more suitable for coarse fish than for trout.

I do not think we can afford to neglect the canals. The canal has two immense advantages. One is that it is a clear fishing water—and the man who fishes with the cork and worm likes a clear country with which to launch the cork and no bush behind him to get involved in. It is not a very elaborate proceeding, but it is highly skilled. You have to know just on what level the cork should be when you pull the string. I did it with the cork myself and greatly enjoyed it. The canals have that advantage that they are not encumbered by wood. Again, there is a towpath their whole length; and therefore one can travel freely and they provide a stretch of fishing water which passes through an area in Ireland which has relatively few other tourist attractions.

Two things are required. One is that the canal should be, in certain stretches, in some measure cleared up —not to excess, because the weed growth is valuable from many points of view. Apart from that, I think very little requires to be done, except perhaps in certain stretches to remove the excess of mud where the canal has fallen into desuetude. The main thing is to maintain the water as good coarse fishing water and to stock it mainly with the proceeds of our clearance operations from trout waters, where the removal of coarse fish is the primary desideratum. I hope that will be done.

This is not the time, Sir, to deal with the suitability of certain stretches of the canal to provide bathing amenities. That relates more to the Department of Local Government. Some day I hope we shall be able to convert the canal, not only into splendid fishing waters but, in the City of Dublin, into some of the finest public bathing pools that a city could boast of. That scarcely comes within the Minister's responsibility, but it should not be forgotten. If they are preserved for the purposes of fishing that justifies their retention even if it were not possible in the city to use their amenity value for the poor of Dublin as public bathing pools.

The last thing to which I want to refer is mentioned in column 911, where the Minister says:—

"In conjunction with Bord Fáilte, the Inland Fisheries Trust and the E.S.B., I am working towards a means whereby all the interests may prosper and in this endeavour every opportunity for joint consultation will be taken. A decision on this problem will be soon forthcoming."

In relation to that paragraph, I wish first of all to pay a very high tribute to An Bord Fáilte on the splendid progress which has been made in the development of our trout fishing and our coarse river fishing and coarse lake fishing. That progress could never have been made by the Irish Inland Fisheries Trust without the inspired co-operation of An Bord Fáilte. I have rarely experienced any greater measure of satisfaction in approaching colleagues, as they then were, of the Department of Fisheries seeking co-operation, than I did when we approached An Bord Fáilte. We found a degree of inspired understanding, courage and preparedness to invest in something which they readily recognised as a real tourist asset to this country. I am sure that the Inland Fisheries Trust would be the first to say that a great measure of the success they have achieved—and it is remarkable—has been due to the unstinted and wholehearted co-operation of An Bord Fáilte. I feel no doubt than An Bord Fáilte would say the same of the Fisheries Trust.

I wish I could say the same of the E.S.B. I am delighted to hear there has been a change of tune there. I got more trouble from the E.S.B. in fishery matters, while I was Minister, than I did from any other combination in this country. It is right to say that. Now, I am yielding to none in my admiration for the job the E.S.B. has done in the sphere of its own technical achievement, providing power and light throughout the country. But its fishery administration was a pest. If it has been reformed, I rejoice; if it has not, I shall return to this topic hereafter. Perhaps those concerned might note that I shall consider myself a good deal freer to speak from this side of the House than I conceived myself to be when I was on the other side, but that unhappy contingency need not arise if the hopes expressed by the Minister in the paragraph I have just read out are realised. There is nobody more willing than I to let dead dogs lie, but I want to be quite certain they are dead before I finally turn my back on them.

I wish the Minister success in this work, subject to two limitations. The first is that he will not constantly promulgate the idea that nobody gave a damn about fishing or did anything about it until he bobbed up on the surface. That is silly and it is calculated to cause people to offer him opposition who ordinarily would wish to help. Secondly, my good wishes are with him for his success if he is truly the servant of the fishermen on our coasts who own their boats and operate them themselves.

In that connection, let us remember that we used to call them inshore fishermen but that description is now entirely out of date. A man operating one of the modern 50- to 56-foot boats that he has from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara at present can stay at sea for a week, if it be expedient to do so. He can sail in any weather in which it is safe for a trawler to put to sea. It is therefore quite illusory to speak in the present context of inshore fishermen. They are probably few and far between. Ultimately, I confidently anticipate that every one of those permanently employed in fishing on our western and northern and southern shores will have boats capable of taking them as far as they want to go and certainly of remaining at sea for days on end, where efficient fishing may require that procedure.

If the Minister is lured by the fata morgana of establishing a trawler industry based on this country, then everything I can do to impede him will be done. I am certain that the day on which such an enterprise is put in hand marks the beginning of the rapid obliteration of the 1,613 prosperous families at present operating fishing boats on the coast of Ireland. Nobody could conceivably justify the present set-up except as a means of maintaining that superb factory with its scattered employment, in every case based on a home and a family and in every case providing the workman with a splendid standard of living not only in the country but often in the parish where he was born and his father and grandfather before him.

Over and above that, do not let us forget the boatyards. Do not let us forget Fanny's Bay in Donegal. Do not let us forget Baltimore in West Cork. Do not let us forget the boatyards employing men in the remotest part of Ireland where there is no conceivable possibility of providing alternative remunerative employment. Do not let us forget that in those boatyards the men are getting not only good living and good pay but a training which equips them to take up responsible positions in ship building yards in any country of the world. If they want to go abroad, they can do so with the assurance that they have permanent and high-class employment in their own parish, if they remain at home.

It is unthinkable to me that all that should irrevocably be thrown away. If you once lose it, you can never recover it. Break up that pattern of life and nothing you can do can re-establish it. It appals me that all that might inadvertently be destroyed in chasing some daft idea that we should establish a steam trawler fleet based on Ireland. Subject to that, the Minister has my best wishes, but also the assurance that I shall keep my eyes open and if he tries to substitute trawlers for the owner fishermen of Ireland, I think we will be able to defeat him but I hope he will not be so foolish.

Mr. Childers

I have very little time, before the House adjourns, to make any substantial statement on this very interesting debate. Deputies on all sides have been extremely helpful. There has been very little criticism which is not interesting and I feel encouraged to go on with what is a most tremendously difficult job. I was accused by Deputy Dillon of trying to take credit for various aspects of fishery policy which, in fact, had been initiated before I came into office. I felt it was necessary to say a great deal about the fishery industry, to emphasise a great many factors in connection with it because I think development is in arrears and that we have a long way to make up. I want to get as many people as possible to think about it and talk about it intelligently and constructively because only in that way can we, I think, make progress.

I should like to assure Deputy Dillon that all the plans that he examined and all the tremendously difficult and complex task of assessing markets assume the preservation of the 1,600 permanent fishermen in this country.

Mr. Dillon

As owner fishermen?

Mr. Childers

As owner fishermen. Indeed in so far as any expansion is concerned, I think we show a common attribute with some other smaller countries, namely, that proprietor fishermen are better than trawling companies run by business men, though there may be some exception to that. I see the possibility of very considerable expansion in markets available to our fishermen. If there is any one produce that one examines to-day in the way of a food product being sold on the European markets, I cannot see any signs of the kind of difficulties arising that have arisen, for example, in connection with butter and bacon. I believe the fish market will be a fairly lively one for a good number of years ahead. I think most of those who are much more expert than I am believe it also. Therefore, I believe there can be some quite large expansion in the intake of fish, cured, canned, fresh, deep frozen, both for our home needs and for export. In connection with that, I believe it may be necessary for us to have larger boats —and about that, I had better speak to-morrow at greater length.

I should again like to assure the House that what I want to do is to expand the existing industry and preserve the existing interests in so far as I can. There have been certain declines already——

Mr. Dillon

Could I assist the Minister? I do not think it fair for me to break the thread of his discussion, but will he inquire into the representations which I made at a meeting of F.A.O. with regard to the international marketing of fish? I said to the Committee of O.E.E.C., rather than to F.A.O., "Can you procure an international market for fish?" I agree with the Minister that there is no scarcity of fish in the world. There is plenty in the sea to catch. The trouble is to get it marketed. Perhaps the Minister would inquire as to whether we ever got any answer from O.E.E.C. as to whether or not there is an international market for fish.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.