Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Nov 1958

Vol. 171 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Industry and Commerce.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. S. Lemass)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £25,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grant-in-Aid.

The original grant for Córas Tráchtála this year was £135,000. The purpose of this additional sum which it is now proposed to make available is to supplement the company's allocation in the current year in support of the campaign to increase exports of whiskey to the United States of America. In respect of the original allocation, which was intended to be applied to the institutional advertising of Irish whiskey, Córas Tráchtála Teoranta had an understanding with the distillers that they would match that amount in expenditure on their own behalf on individual brand advertising. It is intended to extend that understanding to embrace as far as possible the additional amount now being provided. It is, of course, essential to the success of the campaign that the institutional advertising undertaken by Córas Tráchtála Teoranta is exploited through concurrent and intensive advertising of individual brands.

The volume of exports to the United States of whiskey over the past three years has shown very little change, being almost constant at the figure of approximately 39,000 proof gallons. The more significant figure for consumption, however, shows evidence of an increasing consumer demand. According to the reports of the research agency in New York, which advise Córas Tráchtála in this regard, the consumption of Irish whiskey in the United States increased by 7.3 per cent. in the first quarter of this year although the total consumption of distilled spirits in the United States fell during the same period by 3 per cent. and, in the second quarter of this year, consumption of Irish whiskey increased by 22.1 per cent. The distillers and Córas Tráchtála expect a further increase in demand following upon the stepped-up advertising campaign which began in September of this year. There are good indications that the current advertising programme is successful in arousing interest which it is anticipated will benefit sales in due course and lead to a consequent increase in shipments of whiskey from here.

It should be remembered that whiskey shipments from this country over any given time do not reflect the level of consumption. Increased shipments to American importers frequently lag many months behind an increase in demand at the consumer level. This is particularly observable for Irish, as distinct from other whiskeys, because of the presence in the United States of stocks which are heavy in proportion to demand. Surplus stocks already held in the United States must move out before shippers in Ireland will benefit from increased demand. The purpose of the advertising campaign is to achieve the speediest possible reduction in these surplus stocks as the quickest way of ensuring a continuing increase in the level of exports of Irish whiskey to the United States. I am sure Deputies will approve generally of the purpose of this Vote, and for that reason I anticipate it will be accepted by the House.

Mr. Cosgrave

I should like to make only one comment. Is the Minister satisfied, with the increased demand as shown in the figures for the first two quarters of this year, that this sum of money will be adequate to ensure, if the demand persists, it will be possible to have sufficient supplies available? One of the criticisms which is frequently heard about exports, particularly of specialised commodities—and I think Irish whiskey comes within that category — is that, after initial quantities are supplied, when subsequent inquiries are made by potential customers it is not possible to meet the demand as quickly as the customer expects it to be met.

I have often felt, and have expressed the view in this House, that while most energetic efforts are, or have been, made by Governments and State Departments to establish new industries, over a great number of years, the distilling industry has been one that has declined. For that reason any help which can be given to expand the opportunities for its development, or at least to maintain the existing level of production and employment, is welcome. It is an industry which provides male employment. It has a high reputation for the quality of the article produced and it uses home-grown raw materials. There are, therefore, abundant reasons why it is in the national interests that it should be fostered to the maximum extent, and the only question I would like answered is: are we satisfied, will the House be satisfied, that sufficient money will be made available, if necessary, to further the joint promotional effort of the Irish distillers and Córas Tráchtála?

Mr. Norton

I am in favour of this Estimate and, indeed, I should like to see the Estimate enlarged many times, because the problem with which we have to deal is not one that can be measured in the sum of money provided for in this Estimate. The question of our ability to export to the American market has a long history. When we could have got into the market and made lifelong friends there, during the last emergency, it was decided to restrict our exports to America so as to conserve the Irish whiskey for use on the home market, where it not only satisfied our spirituous requirements as a people but, as well, helped to make a substantial contribution to an Exchequer which was then running into difficulties because of its inability to raise revenue with the same buoyancy as revenue can be raised in times of peace. We have paid a heavy price for that policy, and the result of that policy in the United States has been that we lost the potential of good customers that could have been built up during that period.

During that same period our competitors, the Scottish distillers, were encouraged to send as much whiskey as they could to America so as to earn dollars which were essential to meet the demands of the British war effort. However, I do not think it serves any valuable purpose to-day to hold an inquest on the wisdom of what we did during the war years. That belongs to history but, if we had the hind sight then that we have now, it might have been better, even with some deprivation of our own spirituous requirements, on the part of our own people, to send more whiskey to America to build up friends in the trade, to establish the foothold which the Scottish distillers have been able to establish in the American market.

The Scottish industry realises £30,000,000 to £35,000,000 a year from its exports, as compared with approximately £250,000 which we earn here. That comparison shows we are very sadly in the rearguard when it comes to earning money on the basis of our whiskey exports. It is essential, therefore, to get into the American market because, from the point of view of consumption of whiskey, it is the best potential market in the world. There you have a people who drink whiskey in substantial quantities. They drink a spirit which is whiskey, or akin to whiskey and, in my view, the American market offers the best possible market for the disposal of Irish whiskey.

There is, of course, the old problem of whether the whiskey that is exported should be our traditional brand of whiskey or whether it should be a patent whiskey, which has been given a taste somewhat comparable to that of Scottish whiskey, and without what the Americans say is the "strong hangover" with which some of them associate traditional Irish whiskey. Personally, I believe we can cater for both those markets in America, the market which will take a traditional whiskey and the market which will take a patent whiskey produced to satisfy American tastes.

No matter what we export to the United States in the form of whiskey it will have to be fortified by an immense advertising campaign, and an expenditure of £25,000 on advertising in America is really a trivial expenditure. Some of the single-page advertisements in the large newspapers there cost £1,500 to £2,000, and in America the various areas are served by local papers, and the national papers are not read in all areas as they are here and in Britain. The immensity of the task of spreading a knowledge of Irish whiskey throughout America is so great as to constitute a challenge to our ability to face up to it. There are millions of people in America who know Irish whiskey has a great tradition and who know that connoisseurs are prepared to give it an excellent certificate, but there are also millions of people in America who do not know that Ireland produces whiskey at all. There are hundreds of thousands of drug stores and public houses in America which have never seen a bottle of Irish whiskey, and that shows the immensity of the problem confronting us.

Our Irish whiskey industry is, in fact, an amazing industry when everything is considered. It is a purely Irish industry, using almost exclusively Irish materials. It employs a substantial number of people and the employment given by the distillers in this country is regular. It is made employment and there has never been, to my knowledge, and serious dispute over conditions of employment or wages in the distilling industry. Therefore, distilling deserves well of us. It has given substantial employment. It is a substantial consumer of home produced cereals.

For these reasons alone we ought to endeavour to help the industry in every possible way. In fact, we have never really taken any serious steps to help the industry because the taxation on spirits has increased rapidly and is now at an all-time high level. On comparison it will be found that our taxation on spirits is probably the highest imposed by any country in the world. So that, without tariff aid, without subsidy and despite the fact that high taxation is imposed on the Irish produce, the industry has been able to keep itself alive and relatively thriving and at the same time has been able in difficult circumstances to keep a hold on certain limited foreign markets.

Of course, the export of whiskey could be of immense benefit not only to the national economy but could serve in a useful way to advertise the products of Ireland throughout the world. Therefore, I think there will be a fund of goodwill in all parts of the House for any proposal calculated to advertise Irish whiskey abroad and particularly in the American market. A short time ago I discussed with an American gentleman who has given substantial proof of his interest in and sympathy towards the Irish distilling industry the best methods by which Irish whiskey could be sold in America. I asked him what his views were on the possibility of breaking into the American market in a fairly substantial way and in a manner that held out some hope that we would ultimately establish a pretty substantial foothold in that market.

He said that the publicity in recent years for Irish whiskey had now reached the stage in which we had beaten down the hostility towards Irish whiskey but that we had not yet succeeded in making it a popular beverage in America, that there still was an enormous amount of work to be done in that field. He said that advertising was one of the best means of helping to sell our whiskey, but in his view it was necessary that individual representatives of standing and energy should be appointed to maintain contact with the American distilling companies and wholesale houses to induce them to push out Irish whiskey for sale through their wholesalers and, through them, to the retailers. He said that mere advertising in itself would not bring about the desired impetus to sales which was desired.

There is another matter which shows how necessary it is to publicise the quality of Irish whiskey and the re-known it has achieved among connoisseurs. At many Irish functions in America you would not see Irish whiskey served at all or, if you did, it would be a negligible proportion of the total offered and consumed at a banquet. There should be an enormous potential goodwill for Irish whiskey in America. There are 20,000,000 people of Irish birth or extraction there. We ought to have some special heart-call to them to help the motherland by buying Irish whiskey if they want to drink whiskey at all. How to tap that goodwill has to be thought out in such a way that we shall be able to indent on that potential patronage for the sales of Irish whiskey in America.

Many Irish organisations are easily contacted. Especially along the eastern coast of America, there are many people of Irish birth or extraction. Some serious effort ought to be made to use these organisations as a nucleus for popularising Irish whiskey, not merely at their own functions but at all other functions they attend or over which they wield some influence. If we are merely to publish advertisements and then sit back to see the effect on the potential consumer, I am afraid we shall be disappointed.

I do not think advertising alone — especially the small type of advertising we can do on £25,000 augmented by another £25,000 from the distillers — is likely to bring us any substantial or impressive results. Indeed, these figures of increased consumption of Irish whiskey in America which the Minister used are really statistically insignificant, especially when you remember that in the long run these figures are really very little more than guesses and do not at all purport to rest on any scientific basis of accuracy. What we have got to do in the American market in particular is to appoint live, active representatives and to make contacts with all those who can influence the sales and marketing of Irish whiskey. That advice comes to me from persons associated with the third largest distillery in the United States. They have been able to make an outstanding success of their own business and they ought to know how to market profitably the products of other countries.

However, on the general question, I fully support the Estimate. In this matter we have to cast our bread on the waters in the hope that better supplies will come back, but we have got to do it in a two-pronged way. We have got to advertise as extensively as our resources permit in a market that is the best in the world from the point of view of its potential demand for Irish whiskey, but that advertising must be supplemented by an energetic, dynamic personal drive in all directions by persons who are equipped to carry out successfully a drive of that kind.

Mr. McQuillan

Last week a question was put down in the Dáil by Deputy Burke in connection with the sales of Irish whiskey to America. To my amazement I read in the Irish Press the following day that the consumption of Irish whiskey in America had gone up and that a great future lay ahead of Irish distillers there. I felt there was something rather peculiar about the reply given in the House on that occasion, so I drafted a question, which was answered to-day, in connection with this very important commodity and its sale in America. The Minister has sought to suggest through so-called agents in America that the consumption of Irish whiskey there is on the increase, while the figures for the actual exports of Irish whiskey show a reduction. The attempt is made to suggest that, even though our exports may go down in one year, as they are going down at the moment, that in itself is no harm, that it is quite possible that there are large stocks of our whiskey on hand in America and that it is out of those stocks that the alleged increased consumption is taking place.

If that is the case, let us look at the position of whiskey. For the first nine months of this year the Scottish distillers had an all-time record of exports to America, while the value of Irish whiskey exported dropped from £268,933 in the first nine months of last year to £257,319 for the first nine months of the current year. It is on those facts we must go and not on the wishful thinking of agents in America.

This whole question was discussed in the House on a number of occasions. The present Tánaiste was in opposition when a motion in connection with the distillery industry received thorough consideration in the House. At that time the then Tánaiste, Deputy Norton, specifically guaranteed that if the distillers did not wake up and do their duty in regard to the expansion of the whiskey industry he would take the steps I recommended in this House namely, nationalise.

Since 1954 to the present time the actual increase in the export of Irish whiskey has been negligible. We were told that an immense drive was under way to popularise a number of blended whiskeys — new products — in the American market. I tried in this House by way of Parliamentary Questions to extract from the Minister what were the exact sales of blended whiskey in America and a reply would not be given. Is there any reason why the House and the country cannot be told what the actual export value of the blended whiskey is each year, having regard to the fact that the country, the public and the taxpayers are now going to subsidise the Irish distillers?

When the blended whiskeys went on the American market, it was conveyed to me by the representatives of the particular company that these blended whiskeys would not for at least ten to 15 years, if ever, be made available on the home market; that their entire supplies would be utilised for and would be necessary to supply the demand in America. What is the position? You can visit any country "pub" and you will find the shelves lined with whiskeys alleged to suit the American market. We must face the facts. How is it that this blended whiskey is available all over the country when we were assured that it was for the export market?

Some Deputies suggested that during the war years the wrong policy was pursued by the Government. I am not trying to blame any particular Government for this at the moment. I blame the distilling industry and I challenge contradiction when I say that the year prohibition was repealed in America the Irish distillers were requested to come into the American market. They got first preference in the American market for the sale of Irish whiskey.

The answer of the two major distilleries at the time was that they were not interested in the American market. They were not interested in the export trade. They were only interested in the home market. The result was that the Scots went into the American market. Since 1932 they have gradually built up their sales to the tune of £45,000,000 worth of whiskey. When we find that the over-all consumption of spirits in America is over £600,000,000 we can see the opening that is there or should be there for the sale of Irish whiskey. When we see that Scotch whiskey represents a little over 5 per cent. of the total consumption in America, surely there is room, if our distillers are doing their duty, to move in and get another 5 per cent.?

Deputy Norton pointed out how important this industry can be. I have said a thousand times already that it could be of far greater importance than the cattle trade if it were properly developed. What have we done? We have left the distilling industry in the hands of the most conservative people who, over the years, for the past 80 years, when they got an opportunity, utilised for the whiskey itself raw materials from other countries if they could get them cheaper than those produced in Ireland. They are on record for that. They maintained on many occasions that the raw materials, rye, oats, and barley, came from Scotland and elsewhere rather than from crops grown in Ireland.

There can be no denying the fact that these people have failed over the years to expand this important industry. What are we doing now? We come into this House and we are going to give £25,000 to Córas Tráchtála to help the distillers sell their individual blends in America. Deputy Norton and other Deputies will recollect that American experts gave it as their opinion that if Irish whiskey, either of the blended type or the old pot-still type, were to be a success in America it would be necessary for the distillers to organise and pool their resources; that instead of each of them working in haphazard fashion on the various parts of the American coast they should combine to produce a standard whiskey for that market and utilise the American distributive trade. No effort has been made to do that.

The only way we are giving publicity at the moment to the limited sales of Irish whiskey in America is to hold dinner parties, cocktail parties and to invite people from this country to meet Pressmen in New York, Boston and San Francisco, drink a few bottles and have sore heads and that is the end of it. There was no attempt made by our distillers to move in and offer the whiskey to any particular distributor there many of whom had to sell £50,000,000 to £150,000,000 worth of liquor throughout the States. No effort was ever made to deal with those people.

Instead of that we waste money every few months on publicity stunts. There is no long-term plan proposed that will hold what we have in the American market and build therefrom. The £25,000 or £50,000 spent on whiskey in America is not even the proverbial drop in the ocean as far as a publicity campaign is concerned. The Scotch distillers spend more money on publicity than we would get for the entire sales of our whiskey to America.

I am in an awkward position in this matter because I want to see this trade develop but I am convinced we are going the wrong way about it. Every time this House gives a little help to the distillers we are allowing them to hang on to the old ways. They will make no real effort to do their duty and create any real expansion in this industry. The Minister should send for the distillers and tell them to pool their whiskey resources, and get over here from America, if necessary, some chemical experts who will in conjunction with scientists and chemists in the distilleries here produce a type of whiskey that will suit the American palate. In addition, I think whiskey for export should have the approval of a bureau of standards and be sold in conjunction with some of the large distributing interests in America on a profit basis to the particular distributing firms. We should hand over the sales to one of these large companies in operation in America. That can be done. The offer was made to Government Departments here and of course it was turned down because the distillers refused to sink their individual interests. They want to stay in their own old groove and they refuse to co-operate. When they refuse to co-operate in a major issue like this, is it right for us to ask the general public to subsidise these distillers who will not do their duty?

The question of protecting even the type of whiskey that is going out is neglected. There is no means of prosecuting publicans in the United States if they sell a whiskey described as Irish whiskey but which is made, possibly in a back room, in America, whereas the Scots can deal quickly and efficiently with those people if an attempt is made to misuse the word "Scotch" on the bottle.

I do not know whether under this measure any help is to be given with regard to the sales of whiskey in Britain. It may be that that position will be kept dark. Do we intend to make any provision at this stage to ensure that no whiskey will be allowed out except in bottles, and to prevent this bulk export of whiskey which is now taking place at a very young age? It is desirable to ensure that Irish whiskey leaving here in bulk for Britain does not become portion of the ingredients for Scotch whisky.

It is a fact that Irish whiskey which leaves here for Britain finds its way to America as Scotch whisky. The portion that is used is possibly small but nevertheless Irish whiskey is a raw material for the Scotch whisky going to America. That is a matter that should be examined. There is no real effort made to complete in Britain and have Irish whiskey sold on its merits there. I have not got the figures with me and I may be incorrect but my recollection is that the value of Scotch whisky sold in Ireland last year was greater than the value of the Irish whiskey we exported. At any rate, there is very little difference between the two sets of figures and, as far as the balance of payments is concerned, the sales of whiskey are not even doing a good day's work.

If the distillers want to stick to the present arrangement why not make the Scotch whisky drinkers here pay for the export publicity campaign for the export of whiskey? Is there anything wrong with putting another 6d. on the glass of Scotch and utilising that money for the purpose of selling Irish whiskey in America? If anybody here feels like drinking Scotch whisky they should be charged more than they would be charged for Irish whiskey. That would be better than putting a burden on the ordinary individual in the State to subsidise the distillers.

I should like the Minister to let us know when he is replying what is the position at the moment with regard to the effort to sell these types of blended whiskey in America. Will he also let us know the reason why in reply to Dáil questions the Central Statistics Office cannot separate the figures and give us the figures for the sale of pot-still as distinct from those for the sale of blended whiskey. It is not an unfair request and I think the Minister is in a position to make that information available. In view of the fact that this House is to vote a sum of money to enable the distillers to sell this product abroad, surely the public are entitled to know what is the export value of the particular types of whiskey. I ask him to give us that information in his reply.

Mr. McGilligan

I do not propose to make a speech but I wish to ask two questions. I understand this £25,000 is to be spent in combination with another £25,000 put up by the Irish distillers and that it is in connection with the advertisement of Irish whiskey in America and has nothing to do with the sales of whiskey in Britain. Can the Minister give even a rough estimate of what other moneys have been expended by Córas Tráchtála in connection with the sale of Irish whiskey in the States?

Secondly the Minister talked about an increase in the consumption of Irish whiskey, I think he said in the first quarter of this year, and gave that as a percentage. What is the exact figure? What did it increase from and to what figure? Would the Minister tell us, looking back about five years, what was the revenue derived by the distillers from the sale of the product in the States then and by what has it advanced? Will he give us the exact figure instead of a percentage and let us know what has been the rate of increase over a number of years? I should like a balance sheet showing what Córas Tráchtála has received from this House to spend on pushing these sales and what is the result. I understand the result has been insignificant.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I am very much in favour of this Estimate because whiskey is one of the exports which is produced entirely from raw material here. Not only will it give employment to those employed in distilleries but it will also be of great benefit to those who produced the raw material which is produced entirely on the land of Ireland.

The Minister for Finance in his last Budget voted £25,000 for the export of whiskey principally to America. For Deputy McQuillan's information the distillers came together as a unified body and put up another £25,000. Am I to understand that this Supplementary Estimate is for a further £25,000? The total amount expended in the United States for the purpose of advertising and distributing Irish whiskey is £75,000. I do not think it is anything like adequate. In the light of circumstances and in view of the fact that this is an export which is entirely dependent on our raw materials, which is productive and which can eventually increase employment considerably in this country not only in our towns but in rural areas as well, I think we should spend far more money on advertising.

Reference has been made to the Scottish distillers. It may interest the House to know that the Scottish distillers spend £1,000,000 per year on advertising their product in the United States. When we come to regard the miserly amount of £75,000 which we spend on advertising Irish whiskey in the United States and then consider the £1,000,000 which the Scottish distillers spend every year in advertising their product, what chance has Irish whiskey against such terrific advertising of Scotch whisky all over the United States?

I am assured by a representative of the distillers who is in a position to speak for the five or six distilleries that exist here in Ireland that plenty of reserves are available. I am assured that were we to increase our exports by four times their present level there would still be sufficient to cater for the increased exports over a great many years.

The Report of Córas Tráchtála shows that for the past 12 months our exports of Irish whiskey to Britain have increased to the extent of £50,000. It says that export stocks have been sent to America. It is not very clear how these stocks have been sent to America, under what circumstances, whether they have been sent as a donation for the purpose of advertising or to places that have stocked this whiskey and have been unable to sell it. I am very doubtful of that.

Irish whiskey is a pot-still whiskey and is able to hold its own with any other whiskey in the world. The proof of that is simple. Anybody will notice that people who come to live in this country and who have lived in Britain before that — we have had quite a lot of people coming in here over the past ten years who have been accustomed all their lives to drinking Scotch whiskey — will, for about their first two months in this country, look for Scotch whiskey. However, once they get the taste for Irish whiskey one never hears of them looking for Scotch whisky again. Irish whiskey is an acquired taste and it can hold its own with any other product. If it is given a fair chance by advertising, the results will come.

This Government has always stressed that its policy is to increase our exports. I feel that a lot of money has been wasted in certain directions, which I cannot deal with now as it does not come under this Estimate, in trying to expand our exports. Here is a simple thing. As Deputy McQuillan, Deputy Norton, Deputy Cosgrave and other speakers have stated, you have an absolutely illimitable market in the United States.

Our product is not a modern product. Distilling has been going on here from time immemorial. We have something that is recognised by those who know the difference as being one of the best if not in fact the very best of its kind in the world. Surely it is in our own interests to spend more money on advertising this product? Distillers will naturally get the benefit of such advertising but bear in mind that we are also assisting a great body of people engaged in this industry throughout the country as a whole. In his capacity as Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister should go to the Government and suggest to them that in view of the tremendous market that exists in the United States for Irish whiskey more funds should be made available so as to put us on a par with the level of advertising of Scotch whiskey in the United States.

It may be of interest to know that we import more continental wines, in cash, than we export whiskey out of Ireland. The Minister is free to deny that statement, if it is wrong. I have not the actual figures but I have that information on very reliable authority. The wines imported into this country are advertised. All the people concerned with the production of wine for Europe advertise freely everywhere. Therefore, with a product such as Irish whiskey, with its potentialities from the point of view of providing increased employment at home, it is foolishness on our part not to go ahead and to expend more money on advertising it abroad so as to get as wide a market as possible for it.

The Government's White Paper contains all sorts of extravagant schemes for establishing new markets, and so on. The Minister for Industry and Commerce should direct his attention to an effort to double, at least, our whiskey exports. The only way in which that can be done within a reasonable time is by placing the necessary sums of money for advertising purposes at the disposal of the people who are in control.

With regard to the type of whiskey exported, as I know the position, the whiskey is entirely exported by the distillers. They handle the export of the whiskey or their agents do it for them. It does not go through any middlemen, or very little, if so. All Irish whiskey is mature. No whiskey going out of this country is less than seven years old.

Scotch whisky which is being exported across the Atlantic to the tune of about £45,000,000 or £50,000,000 in value per year is not as mature as ours. I think it is a blended whisky. Most of our whiskey for export is pot-still. In the limited area in which Irish whiskey has got a foothold in America — and it is a very limited area indeed — the demand for it is far in excess of the demand for Scotch whisky. Some Deputies suggested that we should direct our advertising towards Irish organisations in America and Irish nationals and persons or bodies with Irish affiliations.

In an enormous country such as the United States, with a population of 175,000,000, what is this small sum to us to increase our sales? I consider it is quite inadequate but, at the same time, I am glad to see this Estimate coming forward. We are thankful for small mercies.

Mr. Russell

I support this Supplementary Estimate. I am wondering if the best means of selling Irish whiskey in the United States is through the efforts of Córas Tráchtála or whether the distillers who manufacture it are the people best experienced to sell their own product in the United States. If they are, why have they not been doing it over all the years? Is it, as Deputy McQuillan suggested, because they are conservative and satisfied with a comfortable market here at home or are they suffering under certain disabilities which a discussion between the distillers and the Minister might help to resolve?

It has been suggested that the distillers have a very small home market here, compared with the Scottish distillers who include the entire island of Great Britain in their home market, and that they are suffering from a severe disability due to the high rate of taxation in this country. If that is a fact, and if some relief to the distillers would help to encourage them, and promote sales in the United States and elsewhere, I think the Minister should give serious cognisance to assisting them from that point of view.

I do not know whether the distillers should persevere in selling the traditional pot-still whiskey, or whether they should lean towards the branded whiskey which seems to suit the American palate more. One thing I am quite certain of is that the sale of any Irish whiskey in the United States will be an extremely slow and tedious business. The fact that the Scottish distillers are spending £1,000,000 a year and getting £45,000,000 a year in return is not so much out of line with our own expenditure of £50,000 to £60,000 for a return of £300,000 received for our exports. Like everything else in this country I think we must measure the expenditure by the return we are likely to get.

I do not know what efforts have been made by the distillers on their own to make an extensive survey of the American market. I should have thought that before any money was expended the first thing to do would be to employ, either from their own distilling industry or outside it, experts to study the vast American market and, on the basis of the knowledge acquired from an expert survey, to decide how this money to promote sales of Irish whiskey in the United States could be best applied. Perhaps the Minister, in replying to this debate, will give the House some information on whether such a survey has been carried out into the best way of promoting the sales of Irish whiskey in the United States by carrying on a sales campaign. As previous speakers have said, £50,000 or £60,000 spent on advertising in the United States is only a drop in the ocean. It will do some good, a limited amount of good, but taking the size of that market as a whole it will have a very small impact on the size of the sales of Irish whiskey in the United States.

I do not think you can make any worthwhile sales of whiskey or of any other goods, on the basis of appealing to Irish sentiment among hard-headed American people. The only way you will sell any Irish goods to the United States is on the basis of quality, price, and service and by making energetic efforts to put the goods across. Nothing else will succeed in the United States, and the fact that there is a very big population of Irish descent in the United States means very little in terms of business when it comes to trying to sell them something.

Perhaps the Minister, when he is replying, will indicate why is there such a potential for selling in the United States with an industry which is so peculiarly suited to this country, an industry which is decentralised, which draws its materials from the soil? Why is it that over the years our success has been so miserable in exporting Irish whiskey, not alone to the United States but elsewhere as well? There must be some reasons for our failure to make a success of the export of whiskey, and we must tackle those reasons from the ground up. If the increase in this Vote was likely to do any good I would be quite prepared to support the Minister if he came to the House for a substantially larger sum.

Mr. S. Lemass

I think whiskey is a very desirable product to export and, that being so, I think there is justification for special action by the Government to support the efforts of those engaged in its production to increase their export potential. There was a time in history in which Irish whiskey distillers had a paramount place in world export markets. I do not know if that position can be regained, but the fact that it was held once at least suggests that possibility. Certainly, I think we should try to recover some of the ground that has been lost and it will be of very great advantage to this country if we succeed in doing so.

Whiskey is peculiarly a 100 per cent. native product. It is produced by a number of firms which are distributed around the country and the development of its production can distribute secondary benefits to many other industries and many other producers in the country.

Deputy Cosgrave asked if we have available supplies in sufficient quantities to take care of any increased demand that may be generated by this campaign. I think there is no doubt about that. I think the supplies at present available in bond in Ireland, and in store abroad, are more than sufficient to meet any increase in demand that may be produced in the next few years. The production of whiskey is, of course, a long-term process and as demand tends to increase, as trade prospects improve, it is to be assumed the future distillation programmes of our distillers will be expanded in the light of the better selling prospects.

It is quite true that the amount of money which can be made available, whether from Córas Tráchtála or the Irish distillers themselves, for the promotion of a sales campagin in the United States of America, is small in relation to the size of the American market. So far as Government support for that campaign is concerned the amount provided is as much as we can afford to give, having regard to our resources and the amount the distillers can put in must naturally reflect their own trade returns and, particularly, the volume of their sales in the home market. But, even if the amount is, as Deputy Esmonde says, completely inadequate, it is, at least, a very great deal more than was ever provided before for a campaign of this kind. At the same time, the size of the American market and the amount of expenditure required to make any serious impact on it are fully appreciated, but the sums now allocated to the campagin, if well used, can succeed in achieving results, and the indications are that results are already being achieved.

There has been a suggestion that in some way the unsatisfactory position with regard to whiskey exports is due to the policy adopted during the war. I think that is nonsensical. If the record of the war years, and the measures taken to protect the national interests during that very difficult time are to be examined, then they should be examined as a whole and judged as a whole. So far as I am concerned I have no anxiety about that judgment. What we did then in relation to the restriction of exports was not solely for the purpose of protecting the Revenue. There were other very important considerations as well. I am quite certain that, if we had so stimulated whiskey exports during that period, assuming that to be possible due to our shipping difficulties, as to produce a shortage at home, Deputy Norton would have led the volume of protest that would have broken out here in the Dáil.

It is true that during those years, and immediately after the war, the British Government did so restrict the sales of Scotch whisky on the British market that there was a very pronounced scarcity, and they did so for the purpose of forcing available supplies into export channels. We did not adopt that course exactly but towards the end of the war, and immediately after it, I had a number of discussions with Irish whiskey distillers with the purpose of inducing them to expand their distillations. It is to be realised that increased distillations undertaken then would not have made available increased supplies for export for six or seven years to come, and the volume of exports permitted were related to the matured supplies then available but, I found the distillers reluctant to undertake that increased distillation programme, notwithstanding that they were offered increased availability of scarce commodities required for the production of whiskey.

I want to say that since I came back to office I had other discussions with the whiskey distillers and I found a completely different atmosphere amongst them. Whatever might have been said about the conservatism and unadventurous attitude which they showed ten, 12 or 15 years ago, there is no sign of it now. Indeed, I would put the whiskey distillers of the country amongst the most enterprising of our industrial firms at the present moment. They are not merely engaged upon a vigorous trade campaign, as the House is aware, but they are undertaking extensions of their activities involving quite substantial investments of additional capital.

This campaign which Córas Tráchtála is supporting is directed entirely to the American market. The whiskey distillers themselves are endeavouring to promote increased sales in other markets but, so far as the State supported side of their activities is concerned, the American market is the sole target. It is not correct to assume, as Deputy Russell appears to assume, that Córas Tráchtála is undertaking the sale of whiskey in America. Córas Tráchtála is initiating a trade promotional campaign for Irish whiskey, irrespective of brand. The individual distillers press the sales of their own brands and are solely responsible for arrangements for selling in the United States market.

Deputy McQuillan appears to suggest that it would, in some way, be beneficial to the increased sale of Irish whiskey abroad to prohibit the export of immature spirit. I do not think that Deputy McQuillan understands the operations of the distilling industry very well. A very high proportion of the total production of the Irish distillers is disposed of as immature spirit to bonders and blenders and, if they were deprived of that market, their capacity to promote increased sales abroad would be very greatly reduced. Indeed there are some distilleries which are almost entirely dependent upon the sales of immature spirit and undertake distillations on the strength of commissions received in advance of the opening of the season. I think also that a tax upon Scotch whisky would be the height of nonsense. The export of alcoholic drinks of one kind or another is one of our biggest single trades and to invite retaliation from abroad by imposing taxes of a discriminatory type upon the imports of similar products would be very very foolish indeed.

The total amount being expended upon this United States campaign is more than the £25,000 additional money now being provided. It will be remembered that the Minister for Finance mentioned in his Budget statement that he had been pressed by the distillers to give them some relief so as to enable them to allocate from their own resources more money to trade promotional activities. He did not find it possible to give it to them in the form of a tax relief but he did find it possible to give to Córas Tráchtála this £25,000 over and above the sums they were previously spending on this activity.

Deputy McGilligan asked for a balance sheet but I think it is far too soon to be seeking that. There is also another aspect of this question which should be kept in mind. Córas Tráchtála was set up to organise increased export trade, to encourage and assist individual Irish firms to explore export markets throughout the world and to help them to avail of any that appeared to have likely prospects. One of the methods by which Córas Tráchtála can achieve its aims in that respect is by inducing firms in a particular industry to combine amongst themselves in joint trade promotional activities. The first group of industrialists who combined and availed of the facilities which Córas Tráchtála was offering were the whiskey distillers and it is important that we should, by the support we gave to that combined trade promotional efforts, show our willingness to give equivalent support to any other trade which tackles export problems in the same way. The example of the co-operative enterprise shown by the whiskey distillers is one I frequently quote to other industrialists in an effort to induce them to approach their problems in the same way.

While it is true that the amount of money provided by Córas Tráchtála for this particular campaign is not very substantial I do not want to suggest it can be increased. I do not even suggest it can be repeated for subsequent years. The total sum we have found it possible to make available for all the activities of Córas Tráchtála is £160,000. It will be appreciated that the whiskey campaign in the United States has taken a very high proportion of that amount and it may not be possible to renew it in future years. I feel satisfied that if the results already achieved in increased sales in the United States continue they will encourage the whiskey distillers themselves to continue the same type of successful promotional activities from their own resources.

Vote put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.