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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Apr 1959

Vol. 174 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 57—Office of the Minister for Defence.

Tairgim:

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £4,482,600 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1960, chun Oglaigh na hÉireann (lena n-áiritear Deontais-i-gCabhair áirithe) faoin Acht Cosanta, 1954 (Uimh. 18 de 1954), agus chun Costas áirithe riaracháin i ndáil leis an gcéanna; chun Costas áirithe faoi na hAchtanna um Chiontaí in aghaidh an Stáit, 1939 agus 1940 (Uimh. 13 de 1939 agus Uimh. 2 de 1940), agus faoi na hAchtanna um Réamhchúram in aghaidh Aer-Ruathar, 1939 agus 1946 (Uimh. 21 de 1939 agus Uimh. 28 de 1946); chun Costas i ndáil le Boinn a thabhairt amach, etc.; agus chun Deontais-i-gCabhair do Chumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann (Uimh. 32 de 1938).

£6,914,686 méid iomlán an Mheastacháin le haghaidh na bliana 1959/60 agus, tar éis Leithreasuithe-i-gCabhair a bhaint de, is é glan-mhéid an Mheastacháin ná £6,723,900 sé sin, £355,840 níos mó ná Meastachán bunaidh na bliana 1958/59 mar a méadaíodh le £165,500 a aistriú ón Vóta i leith Luach Saothair i ndáil leis na méaduithe pá a deonadh anuraidh agus mar a laghdaíodh trí shuim £6,000 a aistríodh go dtí an Vóta a bhaineann le Rátaí ar Mhaoin leis an Rialtas.

De ghlan-mhéid an Mheastacháin, caithfear beagnach £4,300,000 nó 64% ar phá, liúntais agus cothabháil na mBuan-Oglaigh. Tá an tsuim sin riartha ar roinnt Fho-Mhírcheann. Mar is gnáth, rinneadh amach an Meastachán ar fhoras na Bunaíochta Síochána, dar líon anois 1,336 oifigeach agus 11,892 fhear, maraon le laghduithe i leith na n-uimhreacha is dealraitheach a bheidh an líon féin i rith na bliana faoi bhun na Bunaíochta. Is amhlaidh mar atá go bhfuil soláthar á dhéanamh sa Mheastachán do 1,174 oifigeach, trí daltai is daichead agus 8,000 fear. An líon atá beartaithe do na fir, tá sé cúig chéad níos mó ná an líon dá ndearnadh soláthar anuraidh.

Ba mhian liom moladh a thabhairt d'Óglaigh na hÉireann mar gheall ar a meanmnacht árd agus feabhas a dtréineála an bhliain seo gabh tharainn. Tá glactha le scéim nua ath-eagraíochta agus, dá barr sin, déanfar iomlánú, don chéad uair, ar na BuanÓglaigh, an Cúltaca Céad-Líne agus An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil. Creidim go mbeidh de thoradh air sin Fórsa Cosanta níos fearr a chur ar fáil don tír. Ba mhaith an ní é, dá ndéanfadh iadsin uile atá i riocht chuige, anáil a chur faoi dhaoine ina measc an Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil a neartú—Fórsa a bhfuil am agus dúthracht caite go fial ag a chomhaltaí leis an ard-chaighdeán éifeachtúlachta atá acu faoi láthair a bhaint amach. Iarraim, freisin, go gcuideofaí leis an gCosaint Shibhialta i ngach slí is féidir. Ní raibh ach toradh cuíosach ar an earcaíocht ina comhair a bhí ann cheana. In áiteanna áirithe bhí an toradh go maith ar fad ach in áiteanna eile ba chúis mhór díomá é. Cláraíodh tuairim is trí mhíle, seacht gcéad fear agus bean san eagraíocht agus tá teagasc faighte ag dhá mhíle agus cúig chéad díobh sin. Má tá aon dul chun cinn le déanmh sa Chosaint Shibhialta, caithfidh na daoine go léir breis suime agus dúthrachta a chur inti. Ba mhian liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na daoine atá san eagraíocht cheana agus, fós, leis na cumainn chabhairdheontacha atá ann faoi láthair, mar gheall ar a dtacaíocht san obair.

The gross Estimate for 1959-60 is £6,914,686, and the net Estimate, after the deduction of Appropriations-in-Aid, is £6,723,900—an increase of £355,840 on the original Estimate for 1958-59 as increased by a transfer of £165,500 from the Vote for Remuneration in connection with the pay increases which were granted last year and reduced by an amount of £6,000 transferred to the Vote concerned with Rates on Government Property.

Of the net Estimate, almost £4,300,000, or 64 per cent. of the total, is required for the pay, allowances and maintenance of the Permanent Defence Force. The sum in question is spread over a number of sub-heads, some of which I shall be referring to specifically later in my statement. As usual, the Estimate has been framed on the basis of the Peace Establishment, which is now 1,336 officers and 11,892 men, with deductions in respect of the numbers by which actual strength during the year is likely to be below the Establishment. In effect, the Estimate provides for 1,174 officers, 43 cadets and 8,000 men. The proposed strength of men is 500 over the number for which provision was made last year. The experience of the last twelve months showed that it is impossible for the Army to carry out the necessary degree of advanced training and, at the same time, be ready at short notice to provide personnel for normal duties while the strength of men remains as low as 7,500.

Before commencing to deal with the details of the Estimate, I should like first to pay tribute to the entire Defence Forces for the high standards of morale and training maintained in the past year. A proof of these high standards was given by the fifty officers, representative of all Corps, who went to the Lebanon to operate with the United Nations Observer Group. They received the highest praise for their efficiency and co-operation. The Commanding General of the United Nations Group, in expressing thanks for the excellent way in which they carried out their duty, said that they had given loyal and valuable service to the United Nations and added "The Irish officers have made a great contribution to the success of this mission. It has been a privilege and honour for me to have had them under my command."

During the past year, a general scheme of reorganisation of the Defence Forces was approved. The purpose of the scheme is to provide a peace-time organisation which would enable the country to put into the field, on mobilisation, an initial force of a number of Brigades with the necessary ancillary services—the maximum force which we estimate could be raised in peace-time. It is proposed to implement that new organisation later this year, and this will bring about for the first time the complete integration of the Permanent Defence Force, the First Line Reserve and An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil. This integration has been made possible by the splendid spirit, enthusiasm and discipline shown by An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil. That Force is to be complimented on its progress. It is a voluntary body whose members have given generously of their time and effort in order to reach the present high standard of efficiency. I believe that the result of this integration will be to give the country an improved Defence Force. It is obviously desirable that An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil should be as numerically strong as possible. It provides an opportunity of rendering national service which should appeal to every young man, and all additions to its ranks, as well as all assistance which Deputies and others in a position to exercise influence can give in strengthening it, will be heartily welcomed.

In addition to its other duties, the Naval Service has continued quietly and efficiently throughout the year to provide fishing protection to the full extent of its resources. It was particularly active recently when, as a result of the appearance of an unusually large number of foreign fishing vessels in the herring fishing grounds off the South-East Coast, two corvettes had to maintain a constant patrol in the area, and carried out five arrests of foreign vessels by which infringements of fishing laws were deemed to have been committed.

As part of its training programme, the Army is currently running a number of schemes for the training and education of boys. The primary purpose is the provision of technical personnel for the Forces. It is also a valuable contribution to general vocational educational training in the country. I should mention particularly the Apprentice School at Naas, which caters for the progressive training for three years of approximately 55 boys a year. The scheme, which has as its objective the training of the boys in various trades, has been in operation for the past three years and the first intake of boys will pass out this year and will be posted to units where the boys will continue to practise their trades. This scheme is recognised by the Trade Unions. There are also the older schemes at Baldonnel, where boys and adults are trained in trades associated with the maintenance of aircraft, and the Army School of Music where about 25 boys are taken in every year to be trained as musicians. As well, there is in operation in the Signals Depot at the Curragh a progressive scheme whereby about 25 men a year are trained in trades connected with radio and radar. I mention all these schemes particularly, because they merit the attention of parents and vocational education authorities.

The latest recruiting campaign, which opened last October, has proved to be the most successful since 1952, the average monthly intake being almost 300. Already, as a result of the campaign, more than 1,400 men have been enlisted in the Permanent Force.

The School of Equitation is at present going through a period of transition. In recent years, we have not had the success in international riding competitions to which we were at one time accustomed and that, naturally enough, has been the cause of some disappointment and heartsearching. A good deal of the criticism has been rather unfair. The international standard of equitation has undoubtedly become much higher than in the days when it was taken as a matter of course that Irish horses and riders should sweep the field. Conditions have also changed in other respects; for instance, in competitions there is now an emphasis on the time factor which did not exist before the war. We can, indeed, feel nothing but admiration for the young officers who since the war have had so many successes despite the fact that, on the whole, they had little or no riding experience until they joined the Army, and we must also sympathise with them in having to take part in competitions under the strain of knowing that so much is expected of them and that, if they fail, criticism rather than understanding is likely to be their lot.

However, it is most desirable, from the point of view of advertising Irish horses abroad and also from the point of view of prestige, that every effort should be made to get back to our former standards, if that can be done, and steps towards that end are being taken. We have at the School a number of officers, including some in training, who are regarded as very good, and we also have some horses of whom great things are expected in due course. Furthermore, we hope to purchase some more horses—they are not as easy to come by as may be thought—which would be capable in a short time of being introduced to international competitions and which would bridge the gap until the other horses to which I have referred are ready. Increased provision is, therefore, made in Subhead N for the purchase of horses this year. We propose to take part this year only in four international competitions— those at Dublin, London, Ostend and Rotterdam—as well as at eleven local horse shows, and to devote the present year otherwise to efforts to reach again the eminence which was once our pride.

The Recruiting campaign for civil defence since its inception late in 1956 has been no more than reasonably satisfactory. In some areas the response has been very good, and in others it has been most disappointing. About 3,700 men and women have enrolled in the organisation and upwards of 2,500 of these have undergone instruction locally by instructors who were trained in the Department's Civil Defence School, Phoenix Park. There exists no more than the bare nucleus of a civil defence organisation in most areas and in some areas even that nucleus is not available. If any progress is to be achieved a much greater effort on the part of the people as a whole is called for. The unsatisfactory response in so many areas is attributable to the attitude of two main groups of people. The first is composed of those who consider the problem entirely remote from this island with its history of neutrality. This is indeed a dangerous line of thought. Even if this country should never be attacked directly it would be exposed to the potential dangers of radioactive fallout from nuclear devices falling outside the country.

The second group is made up of those who maintain that it is beyond our powers to do anything really worth while to save human lives or reduce the damage to property in the event of attack by nuclear weapons. The best answer to that, of course, is that the major powers who possess those weapons and who are therefore most aware of the extent of the awful havoc which can be wrought by them are in the forefront of those who are building up civil defence organisations.

Civil defence is now an integral part of national defence in this country and it will continue so for so long as the world situation as a whole makes it quite clear that it is necessary. A determined drive towards the establishment of an efficient civil defence organisation for this country within the next couple of years is being made by my Department within the limits of the available resources.

It is anticipated that some 2,000 volunteers from the three existing voluntary first aid societies will enrol in civil defence. These volunteers together with any other suitable persons who may wish to join will form the nucleus of the Casualty and Ambulance Service of the Civil Defence Organisation. A course has already been held by the Department in An Scoil Chosanta Sibhialta, Phoenix Park, for the completion of training of instructors for this Service. Those who attended were members of the Irish Red Cross Society, the St. John Ambulance Brigade and the Order of Knights of Malta and they were nominated by their societies through their local authorities. Two further courses for this Service have been arranged for the near future. I would like to pay a special tribute to all the societies concerned for the co-operation which they have offered to me in this most important matter and which gives great hope for the future organisation of this Service. I would like to make it clear that the voluntary service which the members of these organisations are giving in the local Civil Defence Services is in addition to the service which they are giving to their own organisations.

It is scarcely necessary for me to stress again the urgent necessity for the existence throughout the State of an efficient civil defence organisation. Towards this end I will continue to ensure that my Department does its utmost, but the success or otherwise of the objective will depend mainly on the people themselves, on whom the ultimate survival of the nation may well rest. As in the case of An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil, therefore, I would appeal to all members of this House to use their influence and their energies towards inducing responsible individuals or associations to cooperate with their local authorities for the establishment of an efficient Civil Defence Service.

In addressing myself to the details of the Estimate, it will no doubt be convenient for Deputies if I follow the usual practice of speaking first about the Subheads which show an appreciable increase and then about those which have decreased noticeably, and of commenting in each case upon the reasons. I may say by way of introduction, however, that while the net increase of almost £356,000 is a very big one, about which nobody can be unconcerned, the higher rates of pay and allowances which came into operation last year, and the cost of the additional 500 men make up a very considerable portion of that increased figure. There has been, in a number of other ways, very drastic pruning—in some instances, much more drastic than I am altogether happy about—in an effort to keep expenditure within bounds.

There are a number of Subheads showing increases which I may take together because the increases are entirely or almost entirely attributable to one or both of the factors which I have mentioned already—increased rates of pay and allowances and the proposed increase in the strength of men from 7,500 to 8,000. The Sub-heads in question are Subhead A— Pay of Officers, Cadets, N.C.O.s and Privates; Subhead B—Marriage Allowance; Subhead K—Provisions and Allowances in lieu, and Subhead Y2— the Reserve Defence Force. In Sub-head A—Pay—the increase is £215,731 and it is entirely attributable to the two factors of which I have spoken. In Subhead B—Marriage Allowance—there is an increase of £17,161.

This arises partly from increases in the marriage allowance rates which came into force last year and partly from the fact that, with a larger Army, more men become eligible for admission to the married establishment. In Subhead K—Provisions and Allowances in Lieu—the increase is £66,337 which arises, firstly, from the increased cost of foodstuffs for those who are rationed and increased rates of ration allowance for those who are not and, secondly, from the proposed increase of 500 men. The increase of £17,375 in Subhead Y2—the Reserve —arises entirely from increased pay and the cost of rations for An Foras Cosanta Áitiúil. Actually, for the F.C.A. itself, the increase is somewhat more than £20,000, but the provisions for the First Line Reserve of Officers and Men are a little smaller than last year, as the strengths are lower. First Line Reserve strengths are somewhat variable depending on the extent to which in any one year, transfers from the Permanent Force are greater or lesser than the casualties in the Reserve itself. I should, perhaps, draw Deputies' attention to the fact that, despite its title, Subhead A does not contain the entire provision for the pay of the Permanent Force. Subhead E provides for the pay of the officers of the Medical Corps while Subhead P2 relates, inter alia, to the pay of the members of the Naval Service. This is something which it is intended to tidy up in due course.

Subhead C—Pay of Civilians attached to Units—shows an increase of £24,833. In conjunction with that Subhead, I may also take Subhead S —Barrack Maintenance and New Works—in which there is a slight decrease of £1,497.

The increase in Subhead C is caused entirely by pay increases. There is a reduction of 33 in the proposed average number of employees with the Corps of Engineers. Last year, an increase of 30 over the previous year's number was provided for, in order that necessary new works and maintenance might be carried out. This year, considerations of economy compel us to revert to a slightly smaller number. Most of the work planned for this year is once more concerned with improving living conditions for the troops.

Because of difficulties regarding the purchase of a site, it was not possible to start work during 1958-59 on the housing scheme for married soldiers at Collins Barracks, Cork. The purchase was, however, effected recently, and I expect that work will commence at an early date. This year, it is proposed to complete the new gymnasium at the Curragh, the new dining hall and cookhouse at Custume Barracks, Athlone, the modernisation of sanitary and ablution facilities in the married quarters at Sarsfield Barracks, Limerick, and a number of other works. The new Catholic Church at the Curragh, the erection of which is under the supervision of the Office of Public Works, should also be completed this year.

The increase in Subhead J—Mechanical Transport—of £9,770 arises from the urgent necessity to replace vehicles which are no longer serviceable, and that of £72,984 in Subhead M—Clothing and Equipment—results from the necessity to purchase increased stocks, as reserves are, to all intents and purposes, exhausted. As well, larger numbers of men will now require to be clothed and equipped.

The next increase to which I may refer is that of £12,368 in Subhead P —Defensive Equipment. As I said last year, we have not yet built up full mobilisational stocks, but are nevertheless moderately well equipped with light conventional weapons, so that this year again I am seeking only a relatively small sum for defensive equipment. It mainly covers commitments by way of instalment payments on long-term contracts and in the matter of maintenance.

The amount of £130,341 for which provision is made under Subhead P.1 —Civil Defence—is £78,774 greater than the sum provided for in the Estimates for 1958/59. This increase is mainly attributable to the proposed expansion of civil defence training to centres throughout the country for which no civil defence measures have been organised up to the present and to the provision of uniforms for an anticipated intake of further volunteers. The principal items making up the sum of £130,341 are Grants to Local Authorities who have statutory responsibilities for the organisation of civil defence services, and the purchase and maintenance of equipment and stores.

Grants to local authorities account for £37,806 an increase of £12,739 over last year. These grants include contributions towards the cost of civil defence administration by local authorities, towards the cost of uniforms for volunteers, and towards the servicing, storage and maintenance of equipment issued to local authorities. The provision of £109,235 for the purchase and maintenance of equipment and stores represents an increase of £82,035 as compared with last year's provision. This increase is due mainly to the purchase of equipment for the additional centres to which it is proposed to expand civil defence training and to which I referred earlier. Training equipment is supplied free by the State.

Subhead R—Fuel, Light and Water —shows an increase of £8,300. This again arises from increased costs as well as continuing increase in the use of electricity as a result of the improvement of amenities in different ways.

Provision is made under Subhead X3 for payment of the sum of £17,950 to Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann by way of Grant-in-Aid. This is an increase of £2,500 over the provision for 1958-59 and is due to the necessity for greater financial assistance in connection with the financing of the Society's normal activities. The provision also includes a sum of £5,000, the same as last year, for the maintenance of the group of White Russian refugees from North China which the society agreed to receive to look after. During the year the society continued to care for the Hungarian refugees in Knockalisheen Camp until arrangements were completed for their resettling elsewhere. The camp was closed on the 15th December, 1958, and handed back to my Department on the 2nd February, 1959. I should like to avail of this opportunity of paying a well-deserved tribute to the society for its work on behalf of the refugees and to the Army personnel who rendered assistance in that connection. The society is to be highly recommended for its activities and deserves every help and encouragement.

The last increase which it is necessary for me to mention is that in Subhead AA—Expenses in Connection with the Offences Against the State Acts. The Estimate was, of course, prepared some time ago, and it is hoped that very little of the money provided in this subhead will be needed this year.

I think that little need be said about the subheads which show decreases. The most substantial decreases are in Subhead O—General Stores—£14,749, and Subhead P2—Naval Services— £19,175. As in the case of all the other subheads which show decreases, the proposed savings represent a pruning effort—and a very drastic pruning in some instances—in order to compensate to some extent for the unavoidable increases elsewhere in the Estimate.

Appropriations-in-Aid also show a nett decrease of £18,904. The main individual items which bring about that decrease are the revenue from lands and premises, and the sale of surplus lands, which between them show a reduction of £21,940. Against that, there is a new item—£11,730 in respect of refunds to be made to the Department by local authorities in respect of Civil Defence uniforms issued to them. As regards the drop in revenue from lands, I may explain that surplus lands at Tallaght were disposed of during the past year, and deposits on the purchase price were received. The sale transaction will be completed at an early date. Some tenanted lands at Billeragh, Co. Cork, were transferred to the Land Commission with a view to the tenants being admitted to the benefits of the Land Purchase Acts. Arrangements are also being made for the sale of the State's interest in certain lands at Bere Island to the tenants of the lands or their next-of-kin.

That substantially covers everything of importance or interest in the Estimate. I shall, of course, be glad to give any further information that may be required.

I was glad to hear the Minister pay tribute to the very high standard of the Defence Forces generally in relation to their conduct, discipline and general behaviour. I am pleased, as I am sure every member of the House is pleased, to learn about the report the Minister has received from the Commanding General of the United Nations Group, paying tribute to the excellence and the quality of the officers who went to the Lebanon. We can all be proud of the way in which they carried out their duty and I should be glad if the Minister would convey to the officers concerned the appreciation of the House.

At the outset I want to appeal to our people to assist the Department of Defence and the Government in building up our civil defence force and to train in all aspects of civil defence for the protection of our people in case of emergency. As the Minister has very properly pointed out, even though we might not be directly attacked, we could suffer from fallout as a result of attacks on other countries. If our people were properly prepared and trained and knew what to do in the event of such a catastrophe many lives and much suffering would be saved. Therefore, I want to add my voice to that of the Minister, who is speaking in this case for the Government and the people as a whole, and in their best interests.

I shall not comment on the Minister's approach to the problem of defence but the Minister should say what his policy and that of the Government is in the matter of defence. When the first inter-Party Government was formed, in 1948, the then Minister for Defence and the Government took the view that the proper line to take was to plan for a period of peace of at least ten years. I should like to remind the Minister that when we took that decision there was a very violent attack made upon that policy. It will be agreed by all and sundry now that our approach to the problem was the correct one and I should like to know from the Minister what his view is to-day and whether he is continuing that policy. An additional 500 to the Army strength does not mean any great change. I should like the Minister to refer to that.

I appreciate that the amalgamation of the permanent Force, the Reserve and the F.C.A. is a very important step forward. I am glad to note that by co-operation and goodwill a marriage, if I may use the word, has successfully taken place between these two and they are now working in complete harmony. Of course they did work in harmony before, but they were not as integrated as they will be under the new system. I commend the Minister on this. It is the right line to take. I suggest the Minister should give us his views on his intentions in relation to the question of promotion for Reserve Officers in the Junior Ranks. He should say also what ranks he intends to establish in the F.C.A. Will he keep it at a certain level? Human nature being what it is, an extra bar is a great help even though it does not mean very much in the way of financial improvement.

The Minister has not told us whether he is planning for peace or for an emergency. I shall not attempt to prophesy, but it is quite clear that the world is in a very dangerous and disturbed state. Possibly we shall get some indication as to what information is available on the situation when we come to discuss the Vote for the Department of External Affairs.

The Minister has not told us what he intends to do with our Naval Service. He has not said whether he intends expanding that Service, whether he intends attaching an air arm to it by way of helicopter service, or something like that. It would be a good thing to have some arm that could act speedily and quickly in the protection of our territorial waters and the prevention of smuggling. The Minister should have given us a little more detail about the type of vessels used. At one time the possibility of getting a speedier and faster type of boat was under consideration, a boat which would serve our purposes better and would not be too costly to maintain. We cannot afford a very elaborate Navy. I want to take this opportunity now of paying tribute to the high standard maintained. I commend the excellent conduct of the officers and men. I am informed they do their work very courteously, but at the same time very efficiently and very firmly.

The training scheme for apprentices is an excellent one. It is valuable to have boys trained in the various crafts and trades which form such an important part of our Defence Forces at all times. The school at Naas caters for 55 boys. I am sure that is not sufficient to meet all the demands made on the Minister for admission and I appeal to the Minister to extend the school as far as possible. It is important that parents and those responsible for the wellbeing of our boys should make use of this school. I do not know that the recruiting campaign can be described as very successful. An inflow of 300 in a month is not very much particularly at a time when there is considerable unemployment and a high rate of emigration. If the conditions and pay were satisfactory one would expect a much higher rate of inflow. It may be that the Minister and the recruiting teams were very selective and expected a very high standard, physically, mentally, and educationally. It may be that we have got material of a very high quality. I trust that is so.

With regard to the Equitation School and what is known as the Army Jumping Team, results have been rather disappointing for some years past. There has been, of course, a radical change in the whole system of jumping competitions and, as the Minister has pointed out, we were not ready for that. It must be remembered also that the present teams are composed of boys who never straddled a horse until they went into the riding school after getting their commissions. One could not expect them to become experts overnight. In view of all the facts, these boys have given a very good account of themselves. It must also be remembered that the horses were not the best. I am glad the Minister has decided now to get the best. I am glad that he intends to take in some trained horses. He will want to watch his step, however, when he goes into that territory. It can be very saucy and very costly. I take it sound judgment will be exercised. Naturally, we should send out the best that can be got and then train all the younger horses and bring them up to that standard. We can do it.

It is no longer true that the Irish half-bred hunter is in the field at all as far as jumping is concerned. Race horses are wanted now and the time factor is entering into practically every international competition. In the jumping competitions of the past it was the security of the horse and pilot that counted, not the speed. Now apparently we must have speed in everything. There is no longer any question as to whether the horse is capable of carrying a child of nine or a veteran of 90 and it is no longer the first quality of the horse that he should be an armchair ride. We have departed from that nationally and internationally and it is now the time factor that enters into competitions.

What I want to emphasise is that the Minister should exercise patience with the young jumping team and with the young Army officers just out of the Cadet School. We should emphasise to them that all he wants from them is that they should do their best. If they are not at home on a horse, after a few weeks in the Equitation School, they should say that and they should be told that it is not something for which they should be rebuked. If the young Army officer likes it, then he should be allowed to go on and he should be told that he is to do his best.

The reduction in some items of expenditure is to be welcomed but I do realise that the increased pay of the officers, N.C.O.s and men of the Army is still too low and that the cost of living and the value of money have hit them very hard. Indeed, they have been particularly hard hit. When you find the Minister having to put up a very substantial sum by way of an increase of allowances in lieu of rations it shows exactly what is happening in our economy. However, the Minister has to produce that money and they have to get it.

The increase under sub-head J for mechanical transport is one which the Minister should examine very carefully. There is always the risk that when you get new lorries, new cars or new transport of any description the boys are inclined to see how fast these things can go. That is only human but I think there should be very strict enforcement of the regulations governing the use of these cars and the use of petrol in them.

I am glad to know that the new church at the Curragh Camp is almost completed and the other buildings in Custume Barracks and at Cork are being proceeded with. They have been outstanding for a long time. The more amenities available to our Defence Force the better Force you will have and the more contented the men will be. A contented, disciplined and happy Defence Force is very important. It is difficult for men to live in confined quarters and it is not easy to make everything run smoothly. The Minister and the Government can make things very comfortable if they so desire.

I want to join with the Minister in thanking the Red Cross for the work of the past year or two and, in particular, notwithstanding all the criticism, I want to thank them for their handling of Knockalisheen camp. It was not an easy problem. It was more difficult than any of us could foresee owing to difficulties of language and temperament but I am glad to say that in my opinion the Red Cross and the Army officers there did good jobs of work. I am glad that the refugees have been otherwise settled. I know that there has been criticism about this, that and the other. It is very easy to criticise but when you ask the person making the criticism what he would do in the same circumstances there is very little answer such person could give that would be satisfactory.

I notice that some of the lands at Tallaght have been sold and some transferred to the Land Commission so that the tenants can become tenants under the Land Act. I do not see that there has been any help given to Deputy Corry in regard to the land at Kilworth.

That is part of it.

Did you give him any of it?

That is all right. Then the Minister and myself and any future Minister will be able to go to Cork safely. I should like to conclude upon the opening statement of the Minister that he is content with the standard of the officers and men of the Defence Forces of this country. I appeal, with him, to all the young men and women to join the F.C.A. and the Civil Defence Force so that they may become acquainted with all the things that are to be known about Civil Defence, for their own safety and for the safety of the men and women of the country.

I want to refer to a few matters in the Vote. One is in regard to the references of the previous speaker to the major policy of the Minister and his failure to state what he thought the future would be with regard to the army. I should like to say that I think General MacEoin was lucky to be able to base his calculation on a period of ten years at least. He would be a great prophet who could take such a chance at the moment. I do not think that the numbers should be allowed to drop too low. If that happened it would not be good for the morale of those remaining in the army. It is not possible to build up the nucleus of a force on too depleted an army. For that reason I am glad that, even though the increase is not appreciable, it is a good trend and I would appeal to the Minister to increase further the numbers in order that there may be a greater improvement in the force and so that a general uplifting of the standard will be more easily accomplished.

I wish mainly to refer to the F.C.A. There was a time when the numbers were very much greater than they are now, particularly after the emergency. Most Deputies on this estimate were then advocating better conditions for the F.C.A. and considerable improvement has since been effected. However, there are many things which could yet be done, possibly without any great expenditure, to improve the status of the F.C.A.

I have repeatedly advocated on the vote that the battledress uniform should be discarded for something more in keeping with that of the regular soldier. A peace-time force, particularly a force like the F.C.A. which requires a certain amount of attraction, should have a more attractive and better-cut uniform. The F.C.A. is not a costly force to maintain and if its services were required by our Army they would be found to be a most useful adjunct to the regular forces, in fact just as good. When I was an officer in the F.C.A. myself I never could get any reasonable explanation as to why the F.C.A. were issued with what was sometimes a rather clumsily tailored battle dress. It was not very attractive. It never looked smart on parade and I appeal for a change in that.

The only other matter to which I should like to refer in regard to the F.C.A.— and it applies to the Civil Defence Force too—is that they do not always get full co-operation from employers in the matter of being absent on courses and, strange to say, the State as an employer is the most difficult to overcome. Many of those who opt for particular periods to attend courses, which is an essential part of their training, find great difficulty in getting leave of absence from their employers at a particular time. It is not easy for every employer to let his employees off whenever they wish, but there should be some give and take in this respect. The same applies to some extent to the personnel of the Civil Defence Force. If employees got encouragement and the proper incentive from their employers the number of personnel could be considerably increased. I do not think any great impetus has been given as yet to the recruiting campaign or the effort to enlist the services of the people generally in the Civil Defence Force, but if such were undertaken in a more vigorous manner the necessary assistance and co-operation would be forthcoming.

Deputy MacEoin has referred to the Army Equitation School. Everybody has something to say these days about the Army jumping team. Very often we talk about something in regard to which we do not know much, but, on the face of it, we are all entitled to criticise from results, and it is obvious that for some time past the jumping team has not achieved as much as it did in the past. It is heartening to hear from the Minister that the necessary steps have been taken to remedy that defect and I have no doubt that what he has mentioned will eventually lead to our having a team of which we can again be proud and which will put the bloodstock of this country in the forefront of the world.

One of the factors which has led to a deterioration in the standard of the jumping team is that there was not sufficient provision made for the future team. It seems to me and to many others that we have clung to the old stock too long. We had many good horses but we did not provide for the future by having sufficient younger stock to replace the older stock when the time came. The same applies to the personnel in the Equitation School. We have not riders sufficiently trained to replace the older personnel. If a little more money had been expended at the right time in training new riders and horses there would be no gap to be bridged, and it would not be necessary now for us to buy fully trained horses to bridge the gap that exists at the moment.

These horses going out to sporting events and agricultural shows throughout the country during the year are to some extent the means by which the general standard of the Army horses is judged. For that reason it is important that a fair showing be made even at the local shows held in our own country. For some time past that has not been the case and sending out horses to local shows at times has only tended to make known to the public generally the low standard to which our jumping team has descended.

The only other item to which I should like to refer is the question which has already been mentioned, the part which the Army must play in the protection of our fishing. There is a great deal of criticism in that respect but people seldom stop to think of the cost of the various things involved in providing the all-out protection required. However, there are a few things which could be done without too much expense in the improvement of fishery protection. I often wondered why we did not tie in better with the Department of Fisheries in the matter of training personnel. There is a shortage in the fishing industry of properly trained personnel, particularly skippers. People take charge of boats and it is a matter for serious thought whether a good deal of the accidents which have occurred in the fishing industry are not attributable to the fact that people are not properly trained. Efforts have been made by the Fishery Branch to train navigators in maritime schools. I think we could combine with the protection we have under the Minister for Defence the training of personnel who would eventually be absorbed into the fishing industry. By that means we would be able to overcome the heavy cost of providing more adequate protection than we have at the moment.

A good many people are of the opinion, as expressed by Deputy MacEoin, that the Army should employ helicopters or some sort of plane for protection purposes. That might be worth consideration. I do not know what the Minister's views are on that. Even if a small effort in that direction were made, in co-operation with the boats we have, I believe it would certainly improve our present protection system. I do not think the difficulty is so great as we sometimes are led to believe. There are times when those engaged in the fishing industry feel they are not getting the necessary protection from the protection vessels. I would appeal to the Minister to devise, in collaboration with his colleague in Fisheries, a system which will at least be more adequate than the present system. We might progressively reach a stage where we could have better protection for the coast generally. It has a bad effect on those engaged in the industry and having a good deal of money invested in it to feel, rightly or wrongly, they are not getting the protection required. Any expansion of the existing protection should be coordinated with the Army in the matter of training personnel to be absorbed in the industry.

We are all satisfied that the standard of the Army is very creditable and satisfactory and is worthy of the tribute paid by the Minister. I feel if the Army is allowed drop to a smaller number it will be impossible to maintain the high standard necessary and that we might even reach a stage where it would cease to be a suitable nucleus of an effective force to be expanded, in conjunction with the F.C.A., in times of emergency.

I wish to make two points.

What size of Party do you have to have here?

Had the Deputy been anxious to speak, he could have offered after Deputy MacEoin, when he would have been called.

The first point I want to make is to ask the Minister if it is possible to provide even one helicopter for rescue work, particularly along the west coast. The two previous speakers mentioned helicopters from the point of view of protection for fisheries. That would be excellent if it could be done. But at present one of the most urgent necessities along the west and south coasts is that at least one helicopter should be available, stationed in Limerick or Galway —preferably in Galway—for rescue work.

We had an unfortunate occurrence inside the last two years where quite a number of people lost their lives in a boating disaster in Clew Bay. I am convinced—and many people who have given the matter thought are also convinced—that at least some of these lives could have been saved if there had been a helicopter there. The Minister will probably tell us that the provision of a helicopter would be costly. Nevertheless we should not measure such things by the actual cost. If it could be used for fishery protection also, all the better; but I would strongly urge my other point as being much more important and urgent.

The helicopter is something that has come to stay. It is something that the Army, presumably, will be getting some day. The Minister should take his courage in his hands and purchase at least one for the purpose I am speaking of. With a coastline such as ours and while we have people who must make their livelihood on fishing, we will have disasters. Sudden storms blow up and things go wrong in spite of the best care. The whole of the west coast at some time or other has suffered, to a greater or lesser degree, disasters involving loss of life. Something quick and speedy like a helicopter would have saved life in these cases.

Secondly, I wish to join with Deputy MacEoin in paying tribute to the Red Cross, particularly for the way they have handled the refugee problem in Knockalisheen and elsewhere. There has been criticism, but I think a good deal of that was thoughtless. While it was very easy for some people to criticise the members of the Red Cross and the Army for their handling of what I hold to be a difficult job of work, it was remarkable that in all the criticism there was no suggestion of any improved method to replace the methods they had adopted. It is only right to pay tribute to these people for a job of work excellently done.

Ba mhaith liom comhgairdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire as ucht na hóráide a thug sé i nGaelige agus i mBéarla. Is maith an rud é go mbeadh oráid ar Vóta nó rud ar bith eile sa dá theangan. Cuirim fáilte roimh an iarracht a bhí á dhéanamh agus a bhí ar siúl i rith á bliana chun an Ghaeilge a aithbheochaint i measc muintir an Airm. Is léir ó na somplaí a thug an tAire go raibh comhaontú an Airm ar fáil i gceist na Gaeilge agus gur rinneadh iarracht ar fud na tíre chun an Ghaeilge a thabhairt chun cinn agus a úsáid san Arm.

Sílim gurb é an rud is tábhachtaí maidir le cosaint na tíre fá láthair ná cosaint sibhialta. Is é an t-athrú is mó atá roimh an tír agus an domhan ná contúirt hydrogen explosion. Tá an chontúirt sin ann i rith cogaidh agus nuair nac bhfuil cogadh ar siúl. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil eitealáin ag eitilt ón domhain thoir comhgharach don tír seo go dtí iarthar na hEorpa agus is féidir leo pléascáin hydrogen d'iompair. Dá dtarlódh tionóisc do cheann do na heitealáin seo, d'fhéadfeadh pléascadh an-mhór titim amach is aice na tíre seo ar fad. Dá bhrí sin, ba cheart dúinn ullmhú chun ár muintir a chosaint sa chás sin, i gcás tionóisc in aimsir síochána nó i gcás cogaidh. Ba mhaith linn níos mó daoine idir fir agus mná a thabhairt isteach sa dá bhuíon chosanta síbhialta i rith na bliana seo chugainn. Aontaím lena daoine adúirt go bhfuil a chuid féin á dhéanamh ag Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann.

Tá cupla ni beag le rá agam. Is an chéad cheann ná gur cheart creidiúint a thabhairt d'iarrthóirí, cuir i gcás don Státseirbhís, nó i Roinn Poist agus Telegrafa, má bhíonn seirbhís acu sin sna Fórsaí Cosanta. B'é sin an tslí tar éis an chogaidh dheiridh. Thug gach Roinn an Rialtais agus gach comhairle contae crediúint d'iarrthóirí mar sin, gach rud eile cothrom, do dhaoine go raibh seirbhís acu san Airm. Sílim go bhfuilimid ag imeacht ón scéal sin; sílim ná fuil an chreidiuint chéanna dá thabairt do na daoine a thug seirbhís sna Fórsaí Náisiúnta. Is gá an chreidiúint sin a thabhairt san aimsir láthreach níos mó ná mar a bhí sé san am sin toisc go bhfuair cuid mhaith he na daoine a bhí san Airm postanna eagsúla ar fud na tíre ansin. Tarlaíonn sé gur imigh chuid de na saighdiurí a bhí san Arm thar lear tar éis an chogaidh agus anois tá cuid acu tar éis teacht ar ais agus ní tugtar aon chreidiuint, nó, pé scéal é, is beag suim a cuirtear sa seirbhís a thug siad don tír le linn an chogaidh.

Aontaím leis na daoine adúirt gur ceart don Aire féachaint chuige go dtabharfaí cosaint chomh fada agus is féidir, do thionscal na hiascaireachta. Sílim an chéad céim is tabhtachtaí chun an fheidhm sin a bhaint amach ná an teorainn trí mhile do leathnú go sé míle——

Sílim nach mbaineann sin leis an Meastachán seo.

Gnóthaí Eachthracha.

Sílim go bhfuil mórán daoine ag plé na ceist sin agus tá súil agam go bhfúil an Rialtas ag plé na ceist chomh maith agus iarraim ar an Aire cibé cúnamh is féidir leis chun é sin do dhéanamh. Cé nach obair an Aire é cuideoidh sé leis an Aire chun cosaint na h-iascaireachta agus déanfadh sé obair an Aire níos fusa má leathnaítear teorainn an trí mhile go dtí sé míle nó níos mó. Chomh maith le sin, mholfainn don Aire na bádanna úd, an Macha agus na badanna eile, cuairt a thabhairt go rialta ar na calafoirt is tabhachtaí ar fud na tíre mór-thimpeall an coasta.

Go dtí seo d'íoc an Roinn timpeall míle punt sa bhliain do chomhairle Chontae Dhun na nGall i gcóir an Dún sin, Dún Líonán in Dún na nGall. Cé nach bhfuil saighdiúri sa Dún anois, tá gléasraí cogaidh ann, na gunnaí agus mar sin agus na fir, nach saighdiuirí iad atá i gcuram na gunnaí agus i mbliana don chéad uair do tharraing siar an Roinn an deontais leis chomhairle Condae. D'íoc an Roinn na ratáí go dtí seo ach do tharraing siad siar an iocaiocht sin i mbliana. Ní dóigh liom gur cheart sin; sílim go bhfuil oblagáid ar an Roinn Cosanta na rátaí ar an Dúna sin d'íoc chomh fada agus tá úsáid a bhaint as an Dún acu agus chomh fada agus atá gléasraí cogaidh ann agus daoine ag tabhairt aire don Dún agus do na gléasraí cogaidh.

Seo poinnte eile—aimsir fhliuch. Cé go mbíonn an lá fliuch is féidir leis na hobritheoirí sa Dún obair a dhéanamh. Ní bhíonn aon bhriseadh isteach ar an obair má bhíonn an lá fliuch. Is féidir leo dul ar aghaidh leis an obair, ach mar sin féin tá sé riachtanach dóibh aimsir fhliuch nó "wet time", mar adeirtear, d'íoc, cé nach ngeibheann siad aon buntaiste ar bith as.

Sin an méid atá le rá agam ach amháin ba mhaith liom go mór cúram speisialta a bheith tugtha don chosaint sibhialta mar má bhíonn sé de dhíth anois bheadh sé de dhíth i bhfad níos mó ins na blianta atá le teacht.

I would like to join with the Minister in feeling pleased at the increase in recruiting. We cannot sufficiently stress the importance of the role played by the F.C.A. While they are a voluntary force, they have been put on a footing to enable them to protect us in any emergency that may arise. I am not suggesting that they would equal the strength we require but they would form the nucleus at least. An important consideration also is the good effect of membership on the discipline and deportment of those in the ranks of F.C.A. even in civilian life. Greater recognition should be given to voluntary organisations than has been the case. I would suggest that when appointments are being made by Departments or local bodies, all things being equal, a candidate who has been a member of one of these organisations should be considered. That recognition could help to increase the number of recruits to Defence organisations.

I notice that there is an increase of £10,000 in the provision for expenditure under the Offences Against the State Act. I hope this money will not be needed and will not be spent.

Once again, I notice that the Minister has not referred to the question of the provision of helicopters. The important rôle that helicopters can play has been emphasised here over and over again. They could play a very important part in defending the fishery limits against infringement by foreign trawlers. By their use, boats could be recognised approaching the coast considerably earlier than is at present possible. Naturally, boats that violate the limits can go outside the limits again very quickly. I hope the Minister is not losing sight of the important role that helicopters can play in that respect.

The Minister says he intends to do something in respect of the Army Jumping Team. There is a figure of £3,700 for the purchase of horses. I would not say that he would get much for that expenditure.

That is last year, I think.

There is a decrease of £6,000 this year in the provision for jumping teams going to shows. That money should be devoted to improving the standard of our jumping teams, which play a very important rôle in fields afar in raising our flag when, possibly, other Ministers may lower it.

I should like to see Army instructors visiting the schools and giving instruction in physical culture and ordinary foot drill. There is great need for such instruction. One has only to look at the slovenly way that young men now walk the streets to realise the need for such instruction, apart from the question of the discipline that is so desirable. It might also encourage recruitment to the Army.

As another incentive to recruitment, there should be more Army parades in provincial centres and visits from the Army bands. It is not an easy thing to transport the No. 1 Army Band around the country but the people are entitled to hear them now and again. I should also like to see the Army figuring in the boxing sphere. In the past, members of the Army have more than justified themselves in the boxing ring.

As a member of a voluntary organisation, I would ask the Minister seriously to consider the point I have made about encouraging such organisations by giving them recognition and, also, the matter I have mentioned of Army instructors visiting schools.

I should like to add my tribute to the officers of the Defence Forces who have served abroad during the last year. I was particularly glad because I was the only Deputy who referred to that matter on the Estimate last year and I expressed the hope at that time that the Minister would keep in mind the possibility that officers might be called on by the United Nations to undertake duties as observers outside this country. Since that time there have been further developments which impinge on the whole question of the Defence Estimate and Army policy generally. I refer to the possibility of this country being invited or requested to send troops abroad for police duties.

In a speech at the Council of Europe, in Strasbourg, in January, our representative, the Minister for Education, spoke on the question of the Berlin crisis. He suggested that one possible solution might be the taking over of Berlin by an international force, so that the troops of Iron Curtain countries and the West might be withdrawn from Berlin in the hope of some ultimate solution. If such a situation did arise, our troops would be very acceptable and I also foresee that in very many countries of the world our troops would be acceptable where troops from other countries might not be. But the situation is that at the moment we have no troops available at short notice for any such duties.

I would feel that the time has come to review the needs of the Army and its whole purpose. I cannot see any danger of foreign occupation of this country any more. During the last war, we were still in a very valuable strategic position so far as Great Britain was concerned, both as the western flank of Great Britain and as an outpost of British defences on the Atlantic. That situation no longer obtains and I cannot see that Ireland has any further significance so far as general Western European defence is concerned. With modern aircraft and modern naval vessels, our few hundred miles to the West really mean nothing at all. Consequently, to regard the Army as being primarily a force to protect our shores against invasion is quite out of date.

When I say that I do not mean that the Army has no further function. I should hope that with modern developments we could, with very little reorganisation, form a strong striking force. Perhaps I should not stress its strength so much as its efficiency. We should play down its professed role as a training cadre for the raising of a larger force in times of emergency. What I have in mind would be something along the lines of a special unit which could be called for historical reasons the "Active Service Unit"— a mixed unit of infantry and other corps which would be prepared for active service anywhere at short notice. That is quite impossible at the moment because we are working on a peace time establishment which is low but, even then, the actual units are far below their establishment strength so that they are not, as they stand, effective fighting units. I should much prefer to see a small number of units and at least one composite force—call it what you will—ready for action at short notice. I should say that the main purpose of such a unit would be to place itself at the disposal of the United Nations whenever required. At the same time if it were required at home it would be available for any emergency, such as action in aid of the civil power.

I have had experience of trying to provide men from a war strength battalion at short notice. It was extremely difficult, quite apart from the altering of duties to which the unit was already committed. The formation of the type of unit I suggest would to my mind be an added attraction so far as recruiting is concerned. Posting to such a unit could be restricted to men who had attained the very highest technical qualifications. I would hope that in a moment of generosity there might even be a slight increase in pay for men who qualify for service in this special unit. They would, of course, carry some identification, some shoulder flash. I would hope that there would be a fairly constant turnover of men in such a unit so that when a man had become fully trained he could be posted to this special unit and stay with it for a year to two. If, then, it was found advisable to post him back to an ordinary line unit again he could still, so long as he retained his qualifications, retain his distinctive shoulder flash and his additional pay. It is not just a matter, of course, of paying a man a little bit extra. It is a matter of giving a man a real incentive, and the best incentive is the knowledge that he has been better trained and has achieved a higher standard than anyone else.

At the moment we have quite a number of infantry battalions. I am not quite sure what the number is, but it is either seven or eight. All these are very much under strength. All are tied to barracks. Each battalion is fully occupied maintaining and running its own quarters. These units are not mobile in any real sense. As the years go on, they become more and more static. This affects morale and also affects the physique of the men. I know that morale generally is very high but I am disappointed that the physique is as low as it is. Our troops do not immediately strike one as being fighting fit. They are healthy, they are well looked after, but to my mind they look soft. That is not the way they should be. They are too much engaged on barrack duties—fatigues, guard duties and so on. Being quartered too long in city barracks they get soft. They are bound to.

We are maintaining far too many barracks in Dublin. I have said that before. I say it again now, and I shall keep on saying it until something is done. In view of the fact that we have not even half as many troops stationed in Dublin now as we had during the war years, it is absurd that the number of barracks should be exactly the same to-day as it was then. When you multiply barracks, you multiply barrack units. Even if we have to maintain a certain number of barracks—I would hope that it would not be necessary—we could, I think, avoid some of the difficulties if a higher proportion of barrack duties were handed over to a separate unit of maintenance men.

I have had experience—I am sure most Deputies have had the same experience—of ex-soldiers coming to me looking for employment in civilian life on the conclusion of a long engagement. Many of these men would prefer to stay in the Army, but they have reached the retiring age. When a man has given as much of his life as that to the Army, he can never really settle down as a civilian. Soldiering is in his blood and he is only happy in that environment. It is a pity that the services of such men are lost. They could be used perfectly adequately to carry out interior barrack duties, such as barrack orderlies, orderly room runners, fatigue men and so on, because it is these duties which gobble up the strength of any army unit living in barracks. If that suggestion can be implemented it will mean that a platoon or company commander will know that he has so many men he can place on parade at short notice.

Here, again, I speak with some experience. I know the frustration of having a company with a nominal strength of 180 only to produce 25 men on parade at any one time because so many were on guard, so many resting off guard, so many doing fatigues and duties of one sort or another that one's strength was quite frittered away and one could never train or exercise one's men as a unit.

I ask the Minister to consider these two suggestions: first, the formation of a mixed unit of infantry and other arms to be given some special title and kept in a constant state of preparedness at all times and, secondly, the relieving of ordinary troops of barrack duties by a reduction in the number of barracks and by the employment of those who have reached retiring age on some sort of special enlistment, if necessary, on interior barrack duties.

I spoke last year about coastal defence artillery. When the coastal forts were taken over, more than the actual guns were involved at the time. There was the question of regaining complete control of our own defences, excluding Great Britain from any share, either active or passive. Even before the last war, fixed coastal artillery was absolutely finished. Fixed defences of any sort had become completely out of date. The incredible thing is that the Germans, who demonstrated that fact in their break through of the fixed defences of France and the Low Countries, fell into the same trap and tried to defend the European coastline with fixed coastal defences. They were proved to be no use whatever even when used on a vast scale. They were a slight embarrassment but very little more.

We still keep these enormous guns and huge installations and have to maintain them and train men to use these weapons which can never again be used in war. Nobody will ever be obliging enough to present themselves as a target to these guns. I would ask the Minister to consider the closing down of these establishments and the melting down of the guns. It would be far better to abandon them than to spend any further money on them.

The only other arm to become obsolete is anti-aircraft artillery. There again, the modern aircraft has become supersonic and against these aircraft there is no defence by anti-aircraft artillery. You still have some medium anti-aircraft artillery and I say, with any authority I have, that it is absolutely useless and that it is a waste of time and money to exercise men on equipment which will never have a target—never, never again. There must be some protection for ground troops against low-flying aircraft but that can be looked after by light anti-aircraft artillery and small arms. Anti-aircraft artillery, as a discouragement to high-flying targets, is absolutely finished.

On the question of Army pay, perhaps the Minister would clarify the question of the pay of the legal officers. I know that the professional pay of several officers was raised by the Minister and there seems to be some slight increase in the total amount provided although there has been no increase in the number of officers. I do not know if that is due to an increase in the rates of pay but I do know that, while other professional officers have received increases, the legal officers were not included. I hope that matter will be remedied before very long. It will not cost much money but it is unjust that the legal officers, who carry so much responsibility in the administration of justice in the Forces, should be treated in such a discriminatory manner.

I should like to support the remarks already made by General MacEoin and others on the question of the officers of the Reserve, First Line. It is intolerable that officers who retired from the Regular Army and were put back on the Reserve at the end of the emergency with the rank of lieutenant should still be holding that rank. It is very discouraging for them and it makes a Reserve Officer feel that he is not wanted and that he is only being kept on for charity and that the Department and the Minister would be just as pleased to see him retire. The amount involved is very small. I have discussed the matter with some of the officers themselves and I have spoken to some senior serving officers of the Regular Forces. I would pay particular attention to the senior officers and their views and say they are horrified at the situation that has been allowed to develop. They have spoken of the improvement to Army morale generally which would be the case if there was automatic promotion of Reserve lieutenants to the rank of captain after a certain period. I gather that this is the case in the F.C.A. and I see no reason why it should not be the case in the First Line Reserve. I hope that even at this late stage the Minister will have a change of mind.

I notice that in the Estimate itself there is considerable provision for Army lands. The question of Army lands is always a difficult one with War Departments probably because they have had the experience of having to pay dearly for lands they require and they tend to hold on to any they can get. Under Subhead T and also under Subhead I, the amount set out is £19,194. That includes maintenance, wages and other matters. I am delighted to hear that the lands at Tallaght have gone. They proved to be a most expensive investment. I was speaking to a neighbouring farmer whose lands had been flooded for years owing to the bad drainage at Tallaght. Efforts were made almost every year by spending small sums to deal with the situation but last year a very large sum had to be spent to save the adjoining farm from going under water every winter. I do not think that any provision has been made for maintenance in this year's Estimate but the amount needed to put the matter right last year was very considerable indeed. I hope that this expenditure can be greatly reduced in future.

I am still unsure of our conception of the Naval Service. The main job of the Naval Service now, and indeed its only job, is fishery protection. I cannot see that the maintenance of a complete Naval Service is necessary to operate three or four fishery protection vessels. Naval warfare is out as far as we are concerned. We will never be able to provide vessels which can protect us against nuclear-powered submarines off our coast whether they come from the United States or Russia. These are not defence vessels in any normal sense of the word and I feel that the whole concept of our Naval Service is too top-heavy and cumbersome having regard to the present situation.

I hope there is some scheme which we might introduce to improve the amount of protection given to our fisheries. I am not sure that helicopters can provide the answer.

They might be able to do some spotting from the air and identify ships which were infringing our territorial waters but I do not see how a helicopter could actually arrest a ship, a fishing boat or any other craft. However, they might be a help and I agree with Deputies who have already spoken on this point and who have stated they believe helicopters are an essential part of our defence force, not only for this purpose but also for rescue work. The trouble is that a helicopter at present has a very limited range. If you had a helicopter at Galway which was required to operate off the coast of Kerry, it would be getting very nearly outside its range by the time it reached the scene where it was required. But there might be a way of having some mobile ground crew that could be sent by road to service a helicopter which had transported itself to the scene of the trouble and which could then be put into action on whatever work might be needed to be done.

Apart from the work of picking up people, which is possible only under certain circumstances, we all feel the lack of suitable aircraft for rescue operations when an aircraft or a ship is in trouble. We always have to rely on the aircraft of the British Coastal Command to carry out any large-scale or long distance reconnaissance operations over the Atlantic. So far as I know we have only a very few twin-engined aircraft in the Air Corps and those are De Havilland Doves, aircraft of the small civilian type which I would imagine would be highly unsuitable for going out over the Atlantic in very bad weather. It is essential that we should look into this matter and see if some more suitable aircraft could be provided for carrying out search work, not only inshore but well out into the Atlantic.

I agree with the speakers, including the Minister, who have stressed the virtues of civil defence. I also share the Minister's disappointment that recruiting has not been as high as expected. However, the danger here is that bad public relations have made the people apathetic. I agree with the Minister's conception of the problem but until we can convince people that something significant can be done about civil defence we cannot expect recruits. The actual amount of money we are spending is enormous. Under Subhead P. 1, there is provision for £130,000 and in the administration section, the Office of the Minister, there is provision for a further £27,000, which means a total provision of £157,000, in round figures, for civil defence. Most people would wonder where that money will go and whether it is worth spending in that way. That is why I feel that, until we have proper public relations, that apathy will continue and we will be supplying material and equipment, and getting a small number of volunteers almost breaking their hearts working for civil defence with very little to show for it in the end.

I do hope some authoritative statement will be made as to what is the policy on civil defence. Is it possible that we could have any civil defence without enormous underground shelters? If it is possible to survive a very heavy fall-out without having underground shelters we should know about it. Most people feel we are only fiddling with the problem at the moment. I would hope technical people would help the Minister to get this point over to members of the public so as to bring the necessary flow of recruits.

In general, I still believe that the amount spent on the civil side of the administration of the defence forces is very large indeed. Last year I commented on the soldiers' pay section. I do not want anyone to think I have any particular hatred of the soldiers' pay section. I have not, but it is a section which is the most easy to pick on. Last year there was provision for 92 civil servants in the Department of Defence to pay the defence forces. That has now gone up to 99 people at a total cost of £52,893. I cannot understand what we are paying all these people for because the greater part of the work is done by serving officers who hand out the money and by serving soldiers who complete the pay rolls which are handed in for checking. In order to pay out a total amount of under £2 million we have to pay 99 civil servants £52,893. That does not make sense to me.

It was explained to the Deputy last year that that is not so.

I know these officers pay the marriage allowances, ration allowances and everything else but may I say, as a business man, having to pay all sorts of different rates, apprentice rates to first-year apprentices, second year apprentices, having to make deductions for over-alls, pay extra for overtime, make deductions in income tax, deductions for voluntary health insurance, deductions for voluntary life insurance, and so on, all that can be done for a staff of 200 or 300 by one man working half-time; yet we have to employ 99 civil servants at £52,000 per annum to check Army pay. I know the official view is that they are very well employed.

The Deputy is reading the wrong column. He is confusing last year's figures with this year's.

I see they have come down by seven.

That is right.

I am so sorry. I must congratulate the Minister. However, perhaps it is by reason of my protestations. If I protest a little bit more I may get the figure down further. I shall not say my highest hopes would be realised if I could get it down to 85 by next year, but I am glad to see it has come down slightly. I wonder, seeing that that reduction was made, if it was necessary all along. I still insist—and I do not mind how many explanations are given—that it is a most uneconomic way of paying the defence forces. I know that is the way it has been done and always will be done unless more people realise what a fantastically expensive and wasteful way it is.

I am glad there is this move towards integration of the F.C.A. with the regular Army. This will help in making the regular Army a more efficient force. Any distinction between the F.C.A. and the regular Army is bad and I do hope all the Minister's plans will be as successful as he hopes they will be and I believe they will be. At the same time I hope more time will be given to physical training in the F.C.A. as well as in the regular Army. There is a wonderful chance of linking up the F.C.A. with local organisations, athletic clubs, football clubs, and so on. The standard of physical training in the Army has always been very high. We have always had first-rate physical instructors. I always feel that they must be terribly disappointed that they get so little chance of doing actual physical training with the men. I was hoping that we would have far more physical training instructors than we have at the moment and that a number of them would be detailed exclusively to give physical training instruction to units of the F.C.A.

As far as the Army generally is concerned, I feel there is still need of improved public relations. I do not wish this to be taken as a reflection in any way on the public relations officers or Press officers detailed specifically for that purpose. I think we need much more than that. We need their services, but we need more if the Army is to be properly appreciated. I know there is a reluctance to allow Army men to be used at civilian functions, and to allow the participation of army teams and army equipment. That, I think, is a pity. The Signal Corps have radio equipment which could be extremely useful at various civilian functions; and it would be very good propaganda that the ordinary man in the street should be able to see army signallers working with good equipment and doing a job of work in the public interest.

The same would apply to army aircraft. There always seems to be some hesitation about allowing army aircraft to appear at flying displays. That is a pity. It is as if we were half ashamed of having an Air Corps at all and not having supersonic jets. The standard of training of our pilots is second to none. I have seen them fly the most incredible old planes during the war and doing the most incredible things in them. They are the most brilliant pilots, and I think they have shown that whenever they go abroad on courses. They can do magnificent flying and I would hope that they would be allowed to do that at civilian aircraft displays.

Even the Engineer Corps could be allowed, maybe, to give demonstrations of bridging or simply to carry out some training by putting an emergency bridge across an obstacle which could also be used, as a temporary measure, by civilians for a certain purpose. In general, I think that the Army should be brought closer to the people.

Reference was made to more Army parades. I would not be at all happy about more Army parades. The Army does not show itself off properly on parades. I do not mean for a moment that it does not look smart on parades. But an Army should be seen doing its job and parading around the streets is not its job. There is the annual parade in Dublin, and in certain other centres, too, on Easter Sunday. That appears to me to be a very regrettable coincidence. It is perfectly understandable to have some commemoration of the Rising of 1916. But to confuse the Rising with the premier Feast of the Church is, to my mind, most regrettable. To have on Easter Day, as one of the main celebrations, an Army parade, just worries and upsets me. It does not seem right. It is not the sort of thing we should be doing on Easter Sunday morning. I think it is bad for the Army too. Granted you may say they have had Mass beforehand; well and good, but it has spoiled Easter Day for them, too; it has spoiled their whole concept of what Easter Day should be. That there should be a display of troops under arms on that day is something which, I think, should be avoided.

We should try to keep the Rising separate from the Church holiday by every means we can. I would much prefer, rather than have any parade at all, that we should have an Army Week, when Army barracks and establishments would be thrown open to the public, who would be invited in to see actual equipment being used, who would be able to climb in and out of armoured cars, tanks, small tracked carrier vehicles and so on and would be able to see weapons being used—small arms and so on—on a range. That could quite easily be done; it would be far better propaganda and would build up a much closer relationship between the Army and the public.

I hope I shall not be thought too destructive. I am far too proud of the Army to wish to say anything against it. But I feel that very often it has not had a fair chance of justifying itself in the way it can and should. The morale of the force could be maintained and improved if its main functions were made more clear and if it were put on a basis where it was doing real work all the time. Nothing is more damaging to morale than hanging around barracks and doing fatigues. It is a fallacy to believe that men will rebel against unduly hard conditions. Once they know there is some point to it, they will stand up to almost anything. If they are subjected to really tough training while barrack service is done by older soldiers, when they come out of barracks they will throw out their chests and start spinning stories about the fantastic things they have done, about swimming a mile and half with full pack and surviving.

I do not mind those fancy stories; at least it shows that a man is proud of his job. As long as it is reasonable, the more proud men will be to be serving the Army. That is what we should have. I think we can do it; in fact, I am sure we can do it. I should like to repeat that I foresee we shall be asked at some time—and possibly shortly—to provide a force of troops to serve overseas. I would ask the Minister please to see that such a force would be available if and when it is called for.

I should like to congratulate Deputy Booth on the very comprehensive review of the Minister's Estimate. He has covered all sections of the Estimate and has made comments which I am sure will find a ready response in the mind of the Minister and his Department. But how the Deputy can reconcile the hardening off of troops—beyond the fact that during the emergency years they were sent to the country to do some forced marches—within the framework of the Estimate and provide for barrack services to be done by the older type of soldier, I do not know. I agree that it is certainly disappointing and frustrating for soldiers to find that the ordinary chores of Army life fall to be done by them pretty often. Everybody would wish that more of their time might be given to this process of developing their physique more from the point of view of hardening them off. But, taking them by and large, the country can feel a justifiable pride in the bearing of the Army at all stages.

In that respect the F.C.A. have made no small contribution. I think the conception of the present Army as the groundwork on which we might expand if it ever became necessary is the proper conception. The Army personnel, highly trained as it is, would act as it did in the years from 1940 on, as a cadre of instructors providing military instruction for the civilian units that were then raised. Magnificent work was done on that occasion and I believe the framework on which we are building at present follows the same lines.

I am glad the integration of the F.C.A. with the Army is to take place. That is very desirable and should result in benefit to both. It will give the F.C.A. an opportunity of handling weapons which up to this they have not had. Considering our history in relation to the present I think we should, and shall always have, a Defence Force which is highly mobile and which can be used effectively to resist anybody impairing or attempting to impair our freedom. We must visualise a Defence Force within the country which knows the country intimately and can make use of its natural defence features. I think our fences would prove very effective traps and obstacles to the highly mobile type of warfare associated now with other countries.

There is one point which may be worth considering in regard to F.C.A. personnel. The important thing is that they attend training regularly and I have often wondered how that can be secured. I feel if we could get the weekly training parades attended it would be the best step we could take. I wonder if it would be feasible to offer the F.C.A. personnel, say at Christmastime, half the gratuity which would normally be payable if they did their full training period in the summer camps or on wholetime training courses. I think if the personnel qualified, by a certain percentage of attendance which was considered desirable and effective, say at Christmas, for half the gratuity, it would maintain the standard of attendance locally and the personnel would benefit to a greater extent from the instruction given by the local officers in that way.

I am sorry that Civil Defence has not so far justified itself and one wonders what can be done in the county council areas outside large centres to impress on those who have time to spare the necessity for more trained civilian forces. During the former emergency we got, through cooperation by the public at that time and through the local efforts of the Garda authorities, a body then known as the L.S.F. I wonder if the present officers appointed to various county councils could work on somewhat the same lines with the Garda authorities so that at least a skeleton force could be found in each area on which we might base our hopes for a greater force later on.

Deputy Booth mentioned heavy equipment, but beyond the fact that we would like to train our Army elements in the use of such equipment and that it would give variety in instruction, so far as the opportunity for using such equipment in this country is concerned, considering our resources, such opportunity would be very limited. We need not spend much money on such equipment. Deputy Booth also referred to the equipment we have. We were very glad to have it and it is no harm to continue using it provided we do not have to spend money on it.

He mentioned An Slua Mhuirí and the naval forces generally and their use as a protection for fisheries. These forces do valuable work in that respect and I do not know what the fisheries would do without such protection along our coastline. But these services also fulfil a very necessary role in our national life and there is no reason why a country such as ours that already has a sea-going tradition should not try to build up that tradition. If we do not have the necessary boats in the Service we cannot give young men the necessary training. This is something any island nation should have and even if the Naval Service is small it fulfils a useful function, so long as it is up to the mark in efficiency.

Generally speaking, I think the Minister and all branches of the Army are to be congratulated. It is to be hoped that this integration will take place and that both the Army and the F.C.A. will benefit from it and that the Minister's hopes in that respect will be realised.

Níl fúmsa, ámthach, mórán cainte a dhéanamh ar an Meastachán seo ach ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh do roinnt pointí a bhaineas leis. Caithfe mé i dtosach comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire ar a bhfuil déanta aige leis an nGaeilge a chur chun cinn san Arm chomh fada agus is féidir é.

Tá scathamh fada caite anois Ó cuireadh an tArm ar bun den chéad uair. Cé is moite den Chéad Chath atá againn thiar i nGaillimh, is ríbheag a rinneathas ariamh leis an nGaeilge a leathnú agus a chothú san Arm. Ach caithfe mé a admháil go bhfuil tréan-iarrachtaí á ndéanamh ag an Aire le gairid anuas leis an scéal sin a leigheas. Tá fhios ag an saol, ámhthach, gurb í an Ghaeilge an ghnáth-theanga atá acu sa gCéad Chath. Is í a bhíos le cloisteáil amuich ar an gcearnóig agus an traenál ar bun, agus istigh sna hallaí nuair a bhíos an teagasc ar siúl. Cé nach dtug cuid mhaith de na saighdiúirí an Ghaeilge leo ón gcliabhán tagann siad isteach uirthi gan mórán moille agus ní fada go mbíonn siad i ndon a gcuid gnotha míleata a dhéanamh i nGaeilge. Ní ceapfadh aon duíne go gcuireann an Ghaeilge as dóibh. Tá na húdair ar aon-fhocal a bhfuil an Chéad Chath inchurtha le Cath ar bith eile san Arm maidir le héifeacht traenála agus le heolas an chúrsaí míleata. Ar an ábhar sin, aontaím go hiomlán le polasaí an Aire maidir le Gaelú an Airm go léir. Na hoifigigh óga atá san Arm tá an Ghaeilge ar a dtoil féin acu nó ba chóir go mbeadh. Agus maidir leis na saighdiúirí óga tá Gaeilge go leor acu ón scoil le ordaithe a thuigsint agus cuid mhaith den obair a dhéanamh sa teanga sin. Tig linn a bheith cinnte de go bhféadfadh an tArm dea-shompla a thabhairt don tír maidir le húsáid agus le labhairt na Gaeilge. Do réir mar a thuigim-se an scéal sin é díreach atá i gceist ag an Aire agus tá moladh mór ag dul dó as ucht.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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