To some extent, I am in agreement with the views expressed by Deputy Sweetman. The Minister's statement was certainly an encouraging one. It recorded many satisfactory features of the Posts and Telegraphs organisation during the past year. Certainly the organisation is run on very efficient lines. On the whole the staff make an honest effort to serve the public courteously and efficiently. I regard the staff of this Department as a very hard-working and competent staff. For some reason, which I have never been able to comprehend, the staff of the Post Office have not been accorded in all respects the privileges and advantages that civil servants in other Departments are fortunate enough to enjoy. On a number of occasions, I have tried to find out why that position obtains, but I have never been able to get any satisfactory information. Perhaps the Minister could give us some information on the matter when he comes to reply.
Deputy Sweetman referred to the slow rate of delivery of mails, particularly mails posted at central points, such as Dublin, I am surprised to hear that, but I am sure Deputy Sweetman is correct Certainly I take his word for it. If that position exists, it is about time some steps were taken to remedy it. We have experience here in this House of the excellent postal facilities provided for us. Mail posted here up to 6 o'clock in the evening catches the morning delivery in all parts of the country. I regard that as an excellent service. If there are post offices in Dublin where posting up to 5 o'clock does not ensure delivery the following morning, I suggest something should be done to remedy that situation.
The Minister referred briefly to mail services. He said the position was generally more satisfactory during the year. Further progress was made with the reorganisation of rural postal services with the object of giving a standard six-day frequency of delivery and a better quality of service. During the past few years, much reorganisation has taken place in rural areas. I have some experience of the results secured as a result of that reorganisation. By and large, I am prepared to say that it has been successful. There were isolated areas, particularly on the borders, in which there was cause for complaint. Prior to reorganisation, certain areas were unwieldy and generally unworkable. It was a common experience to find a rural postal area coming within a mile or two of a town and yet posting and delivery of mails was carried out by an office many miles away.
I appreciate that reorganisation was not as simple as one might imagine from a purely theoretical point of view. Many aspects had to be considered. It was exactly a question as to whether the area was workable or unworkable that influenced the final decision. There was also the question of staff displacement, and many other matters, which made the task generally a pretty difficul one in many instances. There were complaints, mostly from postmen, when the new arrangements were announced, but as far as the public are concerned, the reorganisation resulted in a general improvement of the services, which the public appreciate, as I should like the Minister to know.
There may be isolated cases where hardship has resulted to postmen, many of whom have long service. I am quite sure there are a number of complaints before the Department in that connection and I would suggest that they be dealt with very sympathetically. There is no doubt that some postmen, particularly rural postmen and unestablished postmen who have no pension rights, have been adversely affected by the reorganisation and their difficulties should be minimised as much as possible. I do not propose at this stage to discuss the reorganisation scheme further except to repeat that it has definitely provided a better service for the public. It is unfortunate if postmen and other officials directly associated with the delivery of mails have to be inconvenienced and, in some cases, gravely inconvenienced.
A general improvement in connection with outgoing mails is very noticeable in rural areas in recent years. Not long ago, it was a pretty common experience in most rural offices that outgoing letters had to be posted before the incoming mail arrived if the outgoing mail was to leave the office on that day. Happily, that is no longer the case and now there is a fairly long period, probably two or three hours, between the time mail arrives and the time mail is despatched. This time lag gives an opportunity to people in the postal district, particularly those who reside close to the sub-post office, to reply to correspondence on the day of receipt. That is a very great achievement, which most of us did not think could be secured in our time.
There is, however, still some room for improvement in regard to the posting of letters and small parcels. It has often occurred to me that better use could be made of our transport system in this connection. Trains and buses, particularly on long distances, could carry post boxes for the use of travellers. People who have to travel long distances often find it convenient to attend to correspondence on the journey and modern trains provide special facilities for that purpose. In fact a number of people are influenced to travel by train because of those facilities. It should be a practicable proposition to work out some arrangement whereby postage stamps and letter boxes would be available on trains and buses.
Some time ago, I read a Continental magazine which described a service of that kind which is provided in Italy. The service has been provided there with much success for a number of years. I would suggest to our new Minister that he might consider the idea and, as an experiment, have such a service introduced on long distance trains and buses. The cost of the experiment should be very small and, if it is found that the service is not utilised to any great extent, or is not fully availed of there is very little harm done. I am quite sure that it would be a very popular move and I would respectfully ask the Minister to consider the matter at his earliest convenience.
The Minister has stated that the report with regard to the telephone service has been satisfactory for a number of years. I must congratulate the Minister on the adjustment of telephone charges announced recently. According to the statement which the Minister made in the House, this adjustment will cost the Department a fairly large sum of money. I am rather surprised to learn that the new arrangement is regarded by the Department, at the outset, as a liability. I think greater use than the Department anticipate will be made of the telephone service under the new arrangement. I am rather inclined to predict that when the annual return is presented in 1961-62, the loss estimated will not exist.
The shortage of labour, particularly in rural areas, and in urban areas also, renders it necessary for householders to use the telephone in connection with many domestic problems. The use of the phone for other than local calls was somewhat discouraged in the past by the fact that the charges were regarded as being rather high. The Department was conscious of that fact and I am sure that it was because of that that the rates have recently been changed. The Department have faced the problem in a very realistic way and I sincerely hope that the loss which, according to the Minister's statement, is anticipated will not ensue. It is more than probable that the increase in the number of local calls that will result will mean that there will be no change in the revenue.
Generally speaking, the telephone services are very satisfactory, even in rural areas where they were not satisfactory some time ago. We have every reason to be proud of the service in Dublin. The service is greatly loaded during peak periods but, nevertheless, the service the ordinary caller gets could not be better. The general standard of efficiency down the country, even in sub-post offices, where, in many instances, operators have had very little opportunity of being trained over a number of years, is very good. They feel, however, that it is about time the Department reviewed the terms of remuneration of sub-postmasters and postmistresses who operate telephone exchanges. I understand that the extra remuneration for such responsibility is very meagre. I am told, on very good authority, that, taking an ordinary sub-office having a telephone exchange with five or six subscribers, it is hardly worth mentioning the extra remuneration paid for such additional work.
I notice that in recent times, rather than connect up telephones within short distances of central points, the tendency seems to be to start new telephone exchanges in the rural post offices. It appears to me that the reason for this arrangement is that the Department anticipate in the course of a short time many applications for telephone connections in these rural districts. Of course, it would be quite impracticable to consider connecting up such subscribers with the existing central exchanges in the bigger provincial towns. It would mean laying a special line from the exchange to each rural subscriber. Rather than have that done, the Department took timely action.
I want to congratulate the Department for the foresight they exercised in this connection by setting up exchanges in the rural post offices where no exchanges heretofore existed. That, in so far as it goes, is a satisfactory development. It is something that will prove very helpful in years to come when most houses in the rural areas are likely to be connected up.
The Department is certainly moving fast in one direction, that is, in the matter of installation, but they are not moving fast enough in the direction of awarding adequate remuneration to the operators of those rural telephone exchanges. I understand that most of these offices or exchanges have to operate 12 hours a day. It is a rather long period. If one were to compare the conditions with those that obtain among the Civil Service section of the staff, there is a very big leeway to be made up. The operators of rural telephone exchanges have to some extent been agitating for some years for improvement in their terms of appointment. In that regard, I hope that the time is now ripe when the Minister will find it possible to do something about this matter. The telephone organisation is in very good shape. The financial side of it is satisfactory and is likely to be more satisfactory.
It must be admitted that the cooperation of the local exchange operators is required to give that service which all of us are anxious to have. If we are to get the service we require, it is only natural to expect that the operators should be rewarded for it. We are all human in that direction. They are very poorly paid for the general service they provide and sooner or later their position will have to be reviewed. The sooner it is done, the better. I think that, in the long run, the Minister will find it will lead to greater efficiency and harmony between the various sections of his Department.
It is unfortunate that the telegraph service still shows a very substantial loss. I wonder if the policy of the Department a couple of years ago to increase the cost of telegrams was a step in the right direction or whether it did, in fact, make the loss more pronounced than it had been. I felt there was some hope at that time of bringing down the loss—at least some hope of getting the people to utilise telegrams to a greater extent than they were doing.
The cost of telegrams was increased almost 50 per cent. at that time. The minimum cost was 2/6d. which puts it beyond the reach of the ordinary person to send a telegram, except for very special reasons in connection with certain matters. The telegram was rather a popular way in years gone by of communicating ideas but, with the advent of the telephone and the greater use of the telephone, it was natural that telegrams, as such, should disappear.
Evidently the equipment and organisation that appear to be still necessary to take this telegram traffic is rather costly. It would appear that the increase in the cost of telegrams has not offset that deficiency. I would suggest to the Minister even at this stage that it could not do very much harm, if it would do any harm at all, if the cost of telegrams was reduced, say, 6d., from 2/6d. to a minimum of 2/- for a trial period, with a view to seeing whether this deficiency could be made good. Naturally, the Minister will say to me that if he reduces the charges for telegrams, the deficiency is likely to get larger. I do not agree. I think you can always put a service out of the reach of a customer if the price is high enough, but if you put it within his reach by having only a reasonable figure, it will lead to a greater use of the service. I would ask the Minister to consider that course of action.
Quite a number of people complained to me that the cost of telegrams nowadays does not make it practicable for them to utilise the telegraph service. When people express their views in that direction—I am quite sure that other Deputies have had the same views expressed to them, too—it would be some justification for the Minister considering the proposal I have made.
The Minister dealt with the question of staff rather fully. I have always had a definite view with regard to those sections of the post office staff that work the hardest. The postmen in rural areas, and quite a number of them in the urban areas, too, have to work very hard. I think we would all agree that the outdoor staff, such people as auxiliary, unestablished and established postmen in rural areas, are obliged to perform very arduous duties. On most occasions they are working in the open and they are required to work under all sorts of weather.
Undoubtedly the terms and conditions of appointment of these people vary very much. The established postman has security which his colleague who is unestablished has not. The established men have also certain rights with regard to sickness pay and other conditions of employment which are considerably better than those which the unestablished personnel have. I understand that some years ago an effort was made by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to establish a number of temporary hands. An examination was set at the time and I am informed that quite a number of temporary personnel succeeded in getting on to the established staff.
I feel that the Department did not go far enough in that connection. We have a similar experience of unestablished staff being employed in other Departments of State. It was only in recent months that the Department of Agriculture had an examination set by the Civil Service Commissioners with a view to establishing a number of temporary officers who had service with the Department for the past nine or 10 years and who were recruited, in the first instance, on a temporary, week-to-week basis. Eventually it was found that because of certain developments in the Department their fulltime service was required. If we could get down to the same position in the Post Office and endeavour to regrade the temporary and auxiliary postmen particularly, to some sort of established positions carrying pension rights we would be doing a very good day's work, not alone for the men concerned but for the public with whom they are dealing, and for the Department.
The idea of expecting unfortunate men to work for 40 or 45 years and then to retire at 60 or 65 due to ill-health without a pension or gratuity is something which is out of date. It is rather unfortunate that we should still have a Government Department employing people under those conditions. Ministers and various public representatives exhort employers all over the country to introduce superannuation schemes, pension schemes and other types of schemes for the general betterment of their workers. The State should set a very high example and I think that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has some leeway to make up in that regard.
I fail to see, when other Departments have been able to establish temporary officers, whom, no doubt, they were obliged to take into their service in years past, why the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should not be able to follow suit. If you are to have a contented staff you will have to give them the same security as their counterparts in other Departments. It is marvellous that we have got such loyalty and co-operation from those outdoor post office officials particularly and, moreover, from the postmen who discharge their duties under difficult conditions.
I ask the Minister to examine this very vexed question and to endeavour to do something about it at his earliest convenience. I should not like him to feel that I am making this appeal to play to the gallery in any sense or form. I feel that the time is long since past when something should be done about this question and I sincerely hope the Minister will be able to introduce the ameliorative conditions so necessary in the case of postmen and certain clerical grades as well, who I think are still being taken on in a temporary capacity.
No matter how efficient any organisation is operated or controlled you will always get people to come along and make complaints about it. I think it was Deputy Sweetman who said that the Post Office was a very efficient organisation on its own lines but that they were not inclined to adjust themselves to modern requirements in commercial directions. I think too that there might be a little more flexibility than there has been. The only complaint I have to make against the organisation is that it is slightly too strait-laced. Modern conditions require flexibility. Generally speaking the Post Office is a commercial institution. In fact it deplores losses under any heading and endeavours to make profits in all its various sections. This proves it is no different from any commercial organisation except that it is controlled by the Minister and operated as a Department of State.
There are quite a number of regulations still applying in the Post Office which are not practicable nowadays. A similar position obtained in many other Departments from time to time in the past and has now been rectified.
That state of affairs was very noticeable in the Department of Local Government at one time. I would say that at that period progress in that Department was retarded considerably by what was known as red tape. Progress in this Department is retarded by ancient regulations and rules which are found to be impracticable under modern conditions. For that reason I ask the Minister to take his courage in his hands and endeavour to have a review of the whole code for the purpose of bringing it into line with modern requirements.
In conclusion, I should again like to thank the Minister, the higher officials, and indeed all officials of the Post Office for the co-operation which I have received from them when I have had recourse to them on Parliamentary or other business. I must say that we should feel very proud to have such a very splendid organisation under a native Government, an organisation operated by a staff that at all times works hard and for longer periods than appear to be generally operated in other Civil Service quarters. I hope that state of affairs will continue and that the little losses about which the Minister is worrying will turn into surpluses in a short time.
