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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Nov 1959

Vol. 177 No. 8

Control of Imports (Quota No. 50) Order, 1959: Motion of Approval. (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That Dáil Éireann hereby approves of Control of Imports (Quota No. 50) (Superphosphates) Order, 1959.

During the period in office of the previous Government, it was our objective to secure for the farmers their raw materials at the lowest possible price at which they could be procured. At the same time, we recognised that there was in existence here a fertiliser industry which could, with advantage, be expanded, albeit that it is an industry the raw materials of which must be imported, as to 80 per cent. from abroad. The superphospate industry is founded on the import of phosphate rock, mainly from the North African shore. For the purpose of securing that the farmers of this country would have their raw materials at the lowest possible price, while at the same time, securing that the existing industry, and any development of it, would be protected from adverse consequences, we undertook to see that the domestic industry would be assisted by the Exchequer to meet any competition it was called upon to meet from superphosphate imported from any source. The net result of that was that the domestic industry collected £200,000 per annum in subsidy to assist it to meet competition from superphosphate from abroad. That resulted in the farmers getting not only the domestic superphosphate at £200,000 less than they would have had to pay for it, without the arrangement we made, but it also enabled them to buy foreign superphosphate at the lowest possible price.

The present Government—I think wisely—have superimposed upon that a general subsidy of £4 per ton wheresoever it may come from for the benefit of the farmers, but, so surely as we establish a system whereunder the open competition that has operated to keep down the price of superphosphate over the past three or four years is suspended, the greater part of that subsidy will go into the industrialist's pocket and not into the pockets of the farmers for whom it was intended.

The point I want to make is that this is not an issue between town and country. This is an issue of survival for all of us. There is no living creature here, whether he lives in city, town or rural Ireland, whose livelihood and standard of living does not ultimately depend on our success in exploiting the resources of the land. To exploit these resources effectively, we must use superphosphate of lime. If we fail to use it in sufficient quantity, the net result of such failure will be a diminution in the national income. If the price of superphosphate is suffered to rise, it will result inevitably in a reduced user of it and a reduced output from the land.

There is one national statistic that is susceptible of accurate check, that is, the volume and the value of our agricultural exports. I admit that there are statistics for national output, gross national product and net national product. I confess that after 20 years of careful study, I am wholly unable to make head or tail of them. They seem susceptible to such wide variations and unascertainable elements that they mean nothing to me. But there is one statistic which is inescapable because it is measured physically at the point of export and the point of import. That is the volume and the value of our exports.

In the 10 years between 1947 and 1957, we doubled the volume and we trebled the value of the exports of this country. If we had not done that, where would we stand today? Those exports consist, as to nearly 80 per cent., of agricultural produce, and the bulk of them is livestock and livestock products, fed on grass. Remember, they must be fed on grass, because that is the only feeding stuff which can be made available to farmers at a price which will leave them any margin of profit at all on which to survive. If they are forced over to feeding concentrates, the outlets we have for agricultural exports are not such as to leave our farmers a marginal profit over the feeding of concentrates. You may take it, therefore, that an essential raw material of the bulk of our agricultural exports is an increasing quantity of superior quality grass, either growing on the land or in the form of silage or hay. There is the foundation of the dairy industry. There is the foundation of the livestock industry. There is the foundation of the sheep industry, and the wool industry. All these exports go together to build up the livelihood of everyone in this country.

I want to warn this House against acceptance of the principle that the raw materials of that fundamental industry should be taxed or restricted in any way. The Minister makes protestations —in which, I have no doubt, he believes—that these quotas can be administered without increasing the cost of our fundamental raw material. I speak with long experience, not only in my capacity as a Minister for Agriculture but also as a merchant handling these materials and selling them to farmers; there is nothing of which I am more convinced than that, if we remove the element of competition in the manufacture and distribution of superphosphate of lime, the price will rise to the farmer so certainly as to morrow's sun will rise upon the new day. There is no device the Minister can operate to prevent it. That danger is doubled and trebled under a system by which the Government are providing a subsidy of £4 per ton, for this reason that by and large, single super is selling today in rural Ireland at about £9 a ton, and that is after you have taken the subsidy off. The current world price at which super would be available to this country would be something in the nature of £12 15/- or £13, but the Government subsidy makes it possible to sell it at £9 per ton. Next year or the year after—I should say next year—trade concessions should make it possible for the fertiliser industry to bring down the price by about 10/- per ton.

As certainly as we are in this House, if there is no competition to force them to do it, human beings, being what they are, will come to the conclusion that by bringing it down by 2/6 or by 5/-, they are not doing so badly, and the farmers who are buying at present at £9 per ton, when they know the world price is £13 per ton, will lose the real advantage they should enjoy of a further reduction of 10/- and, in the last stage, we shall find ourselves pouring this subsidy, not through the farmers' hands on to the land, but through the distributors' hands into the manufacturers' hands.

There is no contest between providing superphosphate to the farmers at the lowest world price available, and preserving our domestic industry in full production. The only contest is where is the wherewithal to achieve that purpose to come from? Is it to come out of the exiguous profits of the farmers of the land, or is to come from the Exchequer and be measured by this Parliament, and be known by this Parliament? I say that to take it from the exiguous profits of the small farmer in a way no one can measure —because if it is extracted from the price nobody will ever know quite what the volume of the levy is— means you are putting a burden on that section of the community least able to bear it.

There are thousands and thousands of small farmers throughout the country for whom a sufficiency of super, at a price they can afford to pay, means the difference between something approaching destitution and a very modest degree of comfort. If the price of this commodity is suffered to rise to a level at which they cannot afford to use it, bearing in mind the price they will get for their end product, it will reduce the standard of living of everyone who needs it. Not only will they suffer, but we shall all suffer, because the trade deficit which this year is £80 million—£80 million sterling is the probable deficit on this year's trading—will rise in proportion as our agricultural exports fall.

I ask the House to pause and consider with a trade deficit of £80 million this year, what would that deficit be if we had not doubled the volume, and trebled the value, of our exports between 1947 and 1957? It would be at a level which would involve an early economic collapse of this community. I am imploring the House to face the facts. We have an opportunity and a duty to expand exports so that we may maintain the economic viability of our society, and we can do that. If we fail, it will be through our own folly. We have 12 million acres of arable land: we have a splendid population who are eager, willing, and well able to exploit it to the best advantage. We have the greatest market for agricultural produce outside our door in which to dispose of the output of our land, if we have the intelligence to effect satisfactory trade agreements with 50 million people who are, at present, the greatest food importers in the whole world, and we are the only country in the world within 30 miles of them. We have free access to that market and every variety of livestock that can be reared on grass, and there is no other country in the world which will be permitted to send livestock on those terms.

I am afraid the Deputy is getting away from the Order which deals with the marketing of superphosphates.

I think not, but I wish to conform strictly to your suggestion. Superphosphate is livestock. Superphosphate is the blood and bones and flesh of livestock. Withdraw superphosphate and we shall see in this country what we saw in 1947—the livestock dying of starvation on the grasslands of Ireland, as they ate the grass, because there was no superphosphate in the grass. We discovered then for the first time, in our midst, a cattle condition unknown possibly except in the veldt of South Africa—aphosphorosis.

I know it is difficult for the House to see, as it appears to me, the intimate contact between superphosphate and the standard of living of a labouring man in Dublin, Cork, Waterford or Limerick, but to me the chain is unbroken and as clear as crystal, because in superphosphate, I see the very essence and substance of the livestock industry, and in the livestock industry, I see the means of getting foreign exchange with which to purchase the raw materials to employ men in their own country. I realise that the bulk of our income from abroad is the fruit and produce of the prudent user of the land of Ireland which cannot be undertaken without an abundant supply of these materials, our present user of which should be quadrupled and doubled again. We can never do that if we do not make superphosphate available to our farmers at the lowest price possible. This is a clear departure from that principle and we propose to divide against it.

Having listened to Deputy Dillon, I am afraid I misunderstood the purport of his remarks because I was going to say I agreed with what he had to say about the necessity for applying fertilisers to our lands and to enable farmers to purchase fertilisers at the cheapest possible rates.

I said at the outset that this Order was a consequence of the fertiliser subsidy introduced by the leader of the Opposition when he was Minister for Agriculture. As he was aware at the time, not only was the undertaking given that our farmers would procure fertilisers and superphosphates at world prices, but that the Irish manufacturers of superphosphate would be protected against unfair competition from abroad, or from ordinary competition from abroad, by the payment of these subsidies and concomitant with that decision was the suspension of the 20 per cent. duty on imported superphosphate. The object of that was obvious—to ensure that an element of competition would be maintained. In furtherance of that decision, the Government, following the announcement in the White Paper, introduced an extra subsidy of £4 a ton. These two decisions taken together naturally not only induced greater production by existing manufacturers of superphosphate but the possibility of greater production by new entrants into this field.

The net result is that, apart altogether from the increased user of superphosphate that the farmers are undertaking and I hope will continue to undertake, there will be an increased volume of production from our own factories. There is, too, as Deputy Dillon knows better than I do, a great interest in our uses of fertiliser in general by Continental interests even to the extent of dumping or selling at dumped prices their produce in this country. This was taking place to a certain extent and, as a result of all these factors—the increased user followed by the subsidy; the increased production induced by the subsidy and the desire of foreign producers to maintain their hold on this market even to the extent of dumping—in the interests of home producers and without prejudice in any way to the utilisation of superphosphate and the making of it available at world prices by Irish farmers, the Quota Order was made last July.

The Quota Order provides for the importation of superphosphate, again at world prices, to the extent that home manufacture will fall short of the demand. Even if home manufacture does not fall short of the demand but meets it in full we still have the means of ascertaining world prices and that will be the measure of the subsidy vis-á-vis the cost of home production. That yardstick will always be available to us irrespective of whether we produce as much as or even more than the home market can absorb.

I think the opposition to approval of this Order is ill-advised having regard to the undertakings given that Irish farmers will continue and have continued, notwithstanding the making of this Order to receive superphosphate at world prices, less the further £4 per ton subsidy. The suggestion Deputy Dillon makes is that that subsidy will ultimately find itself going not, as he says himself, through the farmers' hands on to the land and so increasing their own production but into the pockets of the manufacturers.

I am satisfied there is available to my Department the means of very close scrutiny of the costs of production by Irish manufacturers and there will always be available to us the information as to world prices. Therefore, under these circumstances, I cannot see the subsidy now being made available abused. I am not making this as a plea to the main Opposition Party to, perhaps, change their attitude but it must be remembered that our fertiliser industry provides direct employment for no fewer than 1,500 people. The prospect, having regard to and as a result of all the arrangements now being made, is that with the sub-sidisation of superphosphate this employment content will increase considerably.

Deputy Dillon rightly commented that phosphate rock is the main raw material of superphosphate, whether single or triple. There is also another necessary raw material, sulphuric acid produced from sulphur or pyrites. In this country, we are in a position to produce big quantities of pyrites. The prospect is very much there that we can utilise a further raw material from our lands for the production of this—

You can make it out of raw materials available at Avoca, if you can get the boys to use it but it has not been possible up to now.

Up to now—but we can always try to induce people to use it perhaps by advising better methods of production.

If it is an economic source.

The prospect is very much there that we can use our own pyrites. I do not want to delay any further on that. I would say that the opposition to this is ill-advised. The fears expressed by Deputy Dillon are hardly likely, in fact they are almost certainly not likely, to materialise.

Deputy Cosgrave asked me a few questions which I should like to answer. He asked if I could give him the amount of the subsidy paid in the years since the subsidy system was introduced and if I could break down the ordinary subsidy and the transport subsidy. Unfortunately, I cannot do that but I can give him the full figures. In 1956-57, £105,000 was paid. In 1957-58, £140,000 was paid. In 1958-59, £260,000 was paid. That represented, roughly, what the Leader of the Opposition mentioned, an average of £200,000 a year. In fact, his figure was slightly above average. Added to that is the £4 a ton subsidy under the economic programme. That amounted, in the first year, namely, 1958-59, to £1,500,000. If you add the £260,000 paid under the prior subsidy scheme to that £1,500,000 you will get a total of £1,760,000 paid by way of subsidy on phosphatic fertilisers.

Is the £1,500,000 not the money provided and not the actual money spent?

The money provided.

I understand you know about the £4 subsidy, if it was all spent?

I do not know if it was all spent. In further answer to Deputy Cosgrave, over the same period, home production in 1956-57 amounted to 152,000 tons; in 1958-59, 200,000 tons, representing an increase of 48,000 tons.

Super or fertiliser?

Super single. In 1956-57, 30,000 tons were imported and, in 1958-59, 70,000 tons—an increase of 40,000 in imports. The total increase of user in 1958-59 was therefore 88,000 tons.

A great deal of it went into compounds, did it not?

Yes, obviously. I do not think the Deputy asked me any other question except the one I cannot answer offhand, the total of freight subsidies. I do not think there is anything left for me to say except to commend this Order to the House.

Is it not so that employment in this industry has expanded to 1,500 persons without any Quota and with the tariff removed? Why does the Minister think the Control Order is necessary to maintain expansion in the light of past experience that in fact we expanded employment in this industry to 1,500 persons without tariff or quota?

I think the reason is this. If I may go back to the mainspring of this whole exercise—the making available at world prices of superphosphate to Irish farmers— world prices envisage prices arrived at as a result of efficient methods of production and fair competition. The necessity for the Quota Order was that unfair competition in regard to the sale of superphosphates to this country was not only envisaged but was being experienced. That was the reason for the Quota Order.

It means that the Irish farmer must pay more for his superphosphate than he would have to pay if the Quota Order did not operate.

It is to prevent outright dumping and it is hardly fair—

If it is not dumped here, it will be dumped in Denmark and we have to compete with Denmark.

I said in replying originally it was in order to defeat the plans for increased production of superphosphate in this country that the dumping action was being taken from other countries. The possibility was that once the projected increase in production here was killed import prices would revert to what they had been before.

They would be able to do that so long as we had a potential there but at present the stuff is being dumped in Denmark and we have to compete in London with Denmark.

Does the Minister not know that our fertiliser manufacturers have to be constantly on the alert against the possibility of substantial dumping of fertiliser from Holland, where there is a very substantial surplus and where fertiliser is produced under cheaper conditions than here? If that dumping from Holland takes place sufficient to kill the Irish industry, it is the Dutch who will fix the price of fertiliser in future. We must remember that we can have our fertiliser from Holland and have no fertiliser industry. If we want a fertiliser industry with Irishmen working in it, we must protect the home manufacture and there is no alternative.

Deputy Norton has said that fertiliser can be manufactured much more cheaply in Holland than here. That is admitted, and we are quite prepared to continue our subsidisation scheme having regard to these prices but as soon as they cease to be fair prices and come around to being dumped prices, then we have to take action other than simply providing a subsidy.

Having regard to the very serious consequences which this Order will have on the farmers and on agriculture in general, and in view particularly of the opposition which is based on fact here today and which has been put very clearly by the Leader of the Opposition, would the Minister not withdraw this Order and bring it back to the Government for their reconsideration?

The Leader of the Opposition said himself that the Irish farmers are getting superphosphate at £9 a ton and the world price is almost £13 a ton. I do not see any reason why there should be the dire consequences that Deputy Flanagan has in mind.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 54; Níl, 32.

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Norton, William.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Tom.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Ó Brian and Loughman; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
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