Fifth Stage?
Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1959—Report Stage.
Question: "That the Bill be received for final consideration" put and agreed to.
Is that on to-day's Order Paper?
I have already put the Report Stage as being agreed to. The normal procedure is——
Not on the same day?
That is a matter for the House.
Was it ordered for to-day?
It was. I understood from the Whips that we were to get all Stages to-day. I was given to understand by the Whips——
That the Taoiseach wanted to get all Stages?
Yes. I was given to understand by the Whip of the Deputy's Party that they had no objections to taking all Stages to-day.
If there is an agreement amongst the Whips, that is all right, but I did not hear it.
I did not hear it.
Is there an agreement amongst the Whips to have the Fifth Stage taken to-day?
Yes.
The Deputy answers as a Whip, not the Whips. Can he say whether it was agreed to?
Yes.
The Deputy is not saying that. Is there agreement amongst the Whips?
There is an agreement with the Deputy's Party, through the Deputy's Chief Whip, that all Stages of the Bill would be given to-day.
Mention has been made of a Whip of the main Party. Has there been any agreement with the Whips of all Parties? I should like to know if there has been any agreement.
If it is going on, I want to speak.
The Deputy may on the Final Stage.
Are we not on the Fifth Stage now? I raised the preliminary matters as to whether it had been ordered for to-day by agreement. The first information I got on that was a rather hesitating statement from the Parliamentary Secretary who is a Whip. He understood there was such an agreement. It ought to be clear whether there is or not. If there is, I shall speak——
That is a matter upon which the Chair cannot give——
It is a matter of information which ought to be circulated to everybody.
The Deputy's own Whip, Deputy Sweetman, told my office on Friday last that all Stages will be given to-day.
Deputy Sweetman is the Whip of one Party. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that there are other Parties.
I understand——
As far as I am aware, Deputy Corish is gone out to check up with our Party.
Deputy Murphy, the Whip of the Labour Party, was not in touch with me at all about the matter. In view of the discussion which took place when the Report Stage was being ordered, I took it for granted there was no objection from the Labour Party to take all Stages to-day. An effort was made to take all Stages on Wednesday last. It was not successful. The Report Stage was ordered for to-day. The Leader of the Opposition then said at Column 1123, Volume 177, No. 8 of the Official Report:
Mr. Dillon: We should be very anxious to meet the Minister so far as we could, but I suggest that if we could leave the Report Stage until next Wednesday, subject to any further developments, we would then assist the Minister so far as we could to see that he got all Stages that day.
Mr. Blaney: Very well.
In case the Chief Whip may be under any misapprehension, the Labour Party Whip has no knowledge of any agreement.
While the Deputy was out, I said that I had no contact with the Labour Party Whip since the Dáil adjourned last week. I said that while the Deputy was absent.
What is the situation now?
There was no objection from the Labour Party then to taking all Stages to-day. I did not understand——
I was under the impression that it was the Report Stage which was to be taken.
The discussion last week ended on the question of taking all the Stages on Wednesday last. That was objected to. The understanding then was that all Stages would be taken to-day.
In view of the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary, we are entitled to refer to Column 1124 of the Official Debate of Thursday last when this matter was under discussion. It states quite clearly, "Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 18th November".
That is so.
There is nothing whatsoever there to state that the members of the Labour Party agreed to the Fifth Stage being taken.
There is not, no.
There is, however, the fact that the leader of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Dillon, said at Column 1123:
We would then assist the Minister so far as we could to see that he got all Stages that day.
I should like to remind the Parliamentary Secretary that Deputy Dillon is not Leader of the Labour Party.
No. I said the leader of the Fine Gael Party. I did not say that he was the leader of the Labour Party and did not refer to him even as the leader of the Opposition. I said, "the leader of the Fine Gael Party." This is a matter that has occurred again and again and all Stages of a Bill are given on an occasion like this.
It is just for that very reason that I personally raised this matter today. There is a habit growing up of taking a Stage, say a Committee Stage, and then asking for all Stages. That is unfair. A Deputy down the country might read an Order Paper and see a Committee Stage was being taken and would not know that it was proposed to take the other Stages. I have asked that at least some information should be circulated to members of the House. I suppose only one Stage can be ordered at a time but I think it is proper that there should be information given to Members that it is proposed to take all Stages or to ask for all Stages at a particular time.
Is it agreed to take the Fifth Stage today?
As far as I am concerned, yes. The Labour people say no.
No.
The Leader of the Opposition agreed last week to take all Stages today.
For us, yes.
On this matter as to the procedure adopted, as I pointed out in the House, I think last week, my real concern in getting this Bill dealt with today is that we may get the Bill through the Seanad and enable them to complete and bring this matter in as legislation in time for signature by the President so as to conform with the Constitutional requirement that it should be signed by the 26th of this month. That has been put to the House. During our discussions here last week, it is true I asked for all Stages and, in reply to Deputy McGilligan, may I say that asking for all Stages is one thing and getting all Stages is another? It depends on the agreement of the House. I am again asking for this Stage now, the Final Stage. I am doing so not quite out of the blue, as might be suggested.
With reference back to last week, when we finished the Committee Stage, the Leader of the Opposition intervened to say, as quoted by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, that if we were prepared and agreed to leave over the Report Stage until today he would try to give us every assistance to get all Stages today. Therefore, asking for it today is not quite out of the blue.
The Minister will recollect that, when he did ask to get all Stages last week, he was reminded that the Taoiseach had said that there was no urgency about getting this law enacted. That is at Column 412 of the Official Report of 28th October. It was because that statement was quoted that I understood the Minister then refrained from pressing his view about getting all Stages last week. As far as this Party is concerned, I have been informed now by the Whip that there was an agreement to take both Report and Final Stages today but nobody in this House is going to assert—at least, it would astonish me —that what the leader of one Party says binds all Parties in the House. That is certainly a new advance.
I can appreciate that, perhaps, when the present Government were in Opposition they looked on their leader as the leader of the Opposition but they know that there is more than one Party in opposition here and we cannot agree. While appreciating the co-operation given at all times by the Parliamentary Secretary in doing his utmost, nevertheless we cannot agree. I am afraid the practice has been going on too long that agreement can be made with the Leader of the Opposition, as he is termed, when in actual fact he is the leader of one single political party in opposition. We are not agreeing to the Fifth Stage.
It does not suit us, in any case, to have the Final Stage taken to day.
Is the Minister pressing that the question should be put that the Fifth Stage should be taken now?
It does not suit.
May I say a few words?
The Parliamentary Secretary can express a personal opinion. I am talking for the Party.
I want to clarify one point made by Deputy McGilligan to day, which was also made last week, in reference to what the Taoiseach is alleged to have said during the course of the Second Reading debate. Deputy McGilligan said, at Column 1123, on the 12th November 1959:
There has been no urgency since it was introduced and constitutional provisions have been met.
This is, in fact, what the Taoiseach did say, at Column 412 of the Official Report of 28th October 1959:
The Constitution does not provide for what happens, if it is not passed by 26th November. It can be passed by 26th November, but I do not regard the Constitutional requirement to have it passed by that date as strong enough to justify the Government steamrolling it through this House, or imposing a closure, as Deputy M.J. O'Higgins suggested.
The Taoiseach felt that he was being misrepresented later by Deputy O'Donnell on that day on this point and he again returned to it as follows —I quote from Column 415 of the Official Report of 28th October:
I think it would be desirable to have the Bill passed by the 25th November. I must not be misrepresented in that respect, but I would not think there is any constitutional obligation on the Government to force it through the Oireachtas if the Oireachtas wants to take more time than that to consider it.
That is not putting it to the House that there is really no requirement.
Is the Minister reading from the Debate?
I am reading an accurate report.
Is he reading the debate? I have the debate here and I want to know why the Minister passed over one statement which is ahead of what he did read:
From a practical point of view, there is no urgency about getting it enacted...
Why was that left out?
Why was what left out?
That phrase I have quoted from the Taoiseach's speech.
Why did the Deputy leave out quite a few words?
I am quoting the most specific statement the Taoiseach made, from Column 412, about eight lines from the top of the page, beginning, "From a practical point of view,".
Nothing else said before or after?
There is.
Would the Minister quote Column 71 of the 21st October? The Taoiseach said then:
If the House wanted to spend more time over the Bill than would be available to enable it to be enacted by that date, I would not urge that it should be enacted by then.
We have made it quite clear that we do not want to force the Bill through the House by closure or otherwise if the House thinks that it should not be so forced through. That was the interpretation and was actually pin-pointed by the Taoiseach himself so that it should not be used here, that we do not want it through and are in no hurry with it.
I do not know what the point of the Minister's intervention was except to make it more confused.
I take it that it is agreed that there is no urgency about getting this Bill through.
It is not agreed.
Was this range of mountains inspected yet?
I shall have to put the question about the time of taking the Fifth Stage.
Lest anybody should think that we are trying to push the Bill through, I think there is general agreement by and large in the House that it should go through all Stages. Lest anyone may think that we are trying at this Stage to force it through the House, would it be possible, as an effort at agreement, to get the House to agree to take it at say 7 o'clock this evening?
Or to-morrow?
To-morrow if you like.
To-morrow, I think.
I do not mind.
I suggest that we meet to-morrow at 10.30.
We could take it first.
Could we get it at 7 o'clock this evening in order to facilitate the Seanad?
The Minister suggests that it should be taken this evening at 7 o'clock. Is that agreed?
Would it be convenient for the Whip if we let him know by, say, 6 o'clock.
Yes.
Order it for 7 o'clock. If it cannot be agreed, the Order can be discharged later on and it can be taken at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.
Ordered: That the Fifth Stage be taken at 7 o'clock this evening.