Electoral Law Amendment: Motion for Joint Committee.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Blaney)

I move:

"That it is expedient that a Joint Committee consisting of 15 members of the Dáil and 7 members of the Seanad be appointed to consider and make recommendations for the amendment of the law relating to:—

(a) the franchise and registration of electors for Dáil and local elections.

(b) the conduct and costs of Dáil elections and expenses falling on candidates at such elections, and

The function of the proposed Committee will be to examine the electoral law generally, within its terms of reference.

Matters covered by the terms of reference have been raised by Parliamentary Question in the Dáil or otherwise on a number of occasions. That the electoral law is in need of amendment I think there can be no doubt.

Persons operating this branch of the law find it necessary more often than not to give speedy replies to questions which may be raised. The difficulty of doing this is greatly increased by the large number of Acts governing the subject. Some of these provisions go back for over 300 years. Many of these are now obsolete, but, nevertheless, they are still there and should be removed. It is vitally important that the law on this subject, covering as it does the constitution of the Legislature, should be crystal clear and should be capable of being interpreted by any citizen.

While I do not want to go into the various defects in the law at this stage, I might mention that general complaints have been made to me from time to time about the present procedures for the compilation of the register of electors. The dates for the various stages may be inconvenient but nothing can be done about it, since they are defined by Statute. I was, however, able to do something this year to meet some complaints by arranging that, in order to avoid confusion, the electors' lists would be printed on a different colour paper from that of the final register.

Then there is the point that the Constitution provides that any person over the age of twenty-one may, unless he is disqualified by law, vote at a Dáil election. The law in regard to the registration of electors, however, provides that a person must be twenty-one years of age on the 15th September, before his name is entered on the register which comes into operation on the following 15th April. This means that a person who reached the age of twenty-one years on the 16th September, 1959, could not become a registered elector until the 15th April, 1961, when he would be more than twenty-two and a half years of age.

The number and complexity of the qualifications and disqualifications for membership of this House and of the Seanad has often been mentioned. The law on this subject, apart from the Constitutional provision, is scattered through a number of Statutes, and apart from the fact that it is not free from doubt in many respects, may well be regarded by some as out of date. This is a question on which we should particularly wish to have the considered views of the members of both Houses.

Similar considerations apply to the other matters coming within the Committee's terms of reference. I cannot think of any body more suited to submit for the consideration of the Government recommendations on questions relating to the conduct and costs of Dáil elections and expenses falling on candidates at such elections, as well as on the question of eligibility for election to which I have referred, than a Joint Committee of members of both Houses, who can bring their large and varied practical experience of elections to bear on the subject and examine it in the dispassionate atmosphere of Committee discussions.

Part of what I have said about the complexity and antiquity of some of the Statutory provisions may raise in Deputies' minds a picture of long and laborious research through long-dead statutes. I may mention that much of the spade-work has been done in my Department where the general scheme of a Bill had been prepared to amend the parts of the electoral law coming within the proposed Committee's terms of reference, apart from that dealing with the expenses falling on candidates at Dáil elections.

This scheme will be made available to the Committee as a starting point and general guide for discussion. The scheme has not been examined in detail by the Government and does not necessarily represent their views. I do not think, therefore, that I should go into the details of it here.

The law on election petitions is obsolete and was designed for the conditions which were in operation when it was passed, that is, single-member constituencies and a limited franchise. It would, however, be somewhat premature to decide the exact procedure to be followed in dealing with election petitions, until the Oireachtas has decided what the precise disqualifications are to be and how they are to operate. An election petitions Bill would then be, to a large extent, a procedural Bill. This could follow on the enactment of the general law on the qualifications and disqualifications for membership.

In conclusion, I may say that the question was considered of including in this motion some reference, in accordance with Standing Order No. 67, to a date upon which the Committee would be required to report back. On fuller consideration, however, we decided that it would possibly be wiser not to fetter the Committee's discretion in this way. I am sure, however, that members opposite will join with me in the hope that the Report of the Committee, if it is decided that it should be established, will not be unduly delayed.

Mr. Dillon

We shall participate in this proposed Committee. However, I think it proper to make one or two observations in regard to the motion.

The Taoiseach was good enough to send me advance information of the Minister's intention to move this motion, for the information of my colleagues. It occurred to me on that occasion that it would be helpful to know what is contained in these draft proposals to which the Minister has now referred. I think it would be better if that material were made available to the House on the occasion of considering this motion rather than to ask the House to consent to the establishment of the proposed Committee before this basic information is circulated.

We are of opinion that the electoral law is in some respects archaic and requires at least codification and, at least in some archaic particulars, modification. We are in agreement that this is a matter which can best be approached dispassionately by a Joint Committee. I cannot refrain from saying that this work might have been put in hand more speedily if we had not spent the past 18 months or two years careering round the country dealing with the Fianna Fáil attempt to abolish proportional representation. A good deal of time was wasted on that frustrated effort——

Mr. O'Sullivan

And money.

Mr. Dillon

——described, according to our recollection, as a Fianna Fáil scheme the realisation of which would result in the Fine Gael Party "having had it." I suppose it is unreasonable for this Opposition to expect from the Fianna Fáil Party any better procedure than is envisaged now but, with a general election which cannot be very much further delayed, in a year or 18 months there may or may not be time coldly and dispassionately to consider all the questions that will here arise. It is certain that if we had not been wasting our time on the Fianna Fáil conspiracy to abolish P.R. such reforms as were requisite would have been made in time for the local elections and that, I think, would have been better than holding local elections under the system which the Minister describes as archaic, unsatisfactory and based, at least in part, on statute law going back 300 years.

We regret that fully informed proposals were not brought before us two years ago in which event they would probably be disposed of now and suitable legislation would either be before the House or already enacted to remove any anachronisms that exist in the electoral law. Regret over past misdeeds is a natural reaction but I suppose we might as well take things as they are and, with things as they are, we are prepared to collaborate in this work. I still think that the Minister might properly make available, at least to the Leaders of the Parties represented in the House, the substance of this draft Bill which he has because it will behove each Party to suggest to the Committee of Selection from its ranks the most suitable Members to deal with the problems that are to be considered. It is hard to do that if you do not know what the problems are. It can and will be done in any case but we could do it much better if we had in our hands the draft document to which the Minister refers.

I see no very important reason why that document should not be made available to the Leaders of the Parties so that they might consult with their colleagues with a view to co-operating in the most effective way they can. I suggest to the Minister that he might adopt the course which I suggest to him. Subject to these observations, even at this late hour we are prepared to work with this Committee and contribute what we are in a position to offer.

There is one somewhat awkward problem that here arises which I foresee as a danger and which, I think, I should mention now. Decisions will be taken in that Committee by a majority. That is as it should be. I want to be perfectly clear that we are anxious to collaborate in good faith with the work of this Committee if there is an agreed measure proposed by the Committee and that measure is accepted by the Government and submitted to the House. But if there is not an agreed measure and if the proposals are not accepted in toto, we must reserve our right fully to discuss, criticise and, if necessary, dissent from the consequential proposals that the Government may bring before the Dáil.

Mr. Corish

The Labour Party has also indicated its willingness to participate in the work of this Joint Committee with the reservation that if it is not a majority report we, as individual Parties on this side of the House, reserve the right not necessarily to accept the report and to make whatever criticisms we think should be made when any implementing measure comes before the House.

This is not the place to discuss the whole gamut of franchise registration, qualification and disqualification for membership of the Houses of the Oireachtas. I wonder if the Minister has gone far enough in this motion or in the terms of reference set out here. This Committee is to make recommendations in respect of the law relating to the franchise and registration of electors for Dáil and local elections. The first paragraph relates to the Dáil and local elections. The next—(b)— relates to the conduct and costs of Dáil elections and expenses falling on candidates at such elections and (c) relates to the qualifications and disqualifications for membership of each House of the Oireachtas.

I think everybody will agree with the Minister and Deputy Dillon when they say that the law in respect of these two matters ought to be overhauled and brought up to date but would the Minister not think that the qualifications and disqualifications for membership of local bodies are also an urgent matter and that it ought to be settled now? If not settled now, it will be 50, 60 or 100 years or, as the Minister said, 300 or 400 years before it can be got round to.

I do not want to discuss the merits or demerits of the particular case mentioned but public servants in minor offices, and postmen in particular, cannot contest local government elections as members of political Parties but they may contest local elections as Independents. Whether that is the law or a Departmental regulation, I cannot say but as far as I know there is a fairly strict regulation, or whatever it is, enforced by the Department that these minor officials cannot contest local elections as members of any political Party.

I think it a bit daft that we should still have that situation because, in fact, everybody knows that certain postmen and other minor officials in the Government service have contested local elections, described themselves as Independents and attached themselves —there is not anything wrong with it —to political Parties if they happen to be successful in the particular local election. That is one example.

There is also the example of minor employees or servants in local bodies who are debarred from becoming members of the local bodies under which they work. There may be some argument against officers, especially senior officers, becoming members of county councils, corporations, borough councils, urban councils or town commissioners, say. I seriously suggest that, as far as minor officials are concerned, the Minister or this Committee should be given power to examine whether or not these servants, people who occupy minor posts, should be eligible to present themselves as candidates for local bodies. I suggest, therefore, that paragraph (a) is all right and that under paragraphs (b) and (c) the Joint Committee should be given power to examine these aspects of election and the qualifications and disqualifications as far as the local bodies are concerned.

Mr. Blowick

I am fully convinced that certain aspects of the electoral laws as they stand at present need renovation and overhaul as certain provisions are out-of-date. I agree fully with the first and second paragraphs of the Minister's motion but as regards the third, I understood that under the present system the qualification, at least for members of the Dáil, is that of just being a citizen of 21 years or over and that your name appears on the register of electors in any constituency. Certain matters are laid down which disqualify a person from becoming a member of the House; if he is elected a member I understand that he must or should resign in these circumstances. I thought these qualifications were quite sufficient as they stand. I did not think that they needed any overhauling because in a democratic community such as ours the present system is quite all right.

There is one matter I wish to mention in regard to the second paragraph in the Minister's motion in regard to franchise. I could never understand why the Gardaí are deprived of votes, or at least not allowed to take any part in an election. Members of the Army have votes; they even have postal votes and are the only section of the community who have. I cannot understand why the Garda, a force which is approved by everybody, have never had votes.

We also have the peculiar situation —which admittedly does not concern a very great number of people in the country, but it is ridiculous—that people who have acquired United States citizenship and have come home to settle down here are deprived of a vote until they take out Irish citizenship. It seems strange to have a man going to the United States to make a living and to get sufficient money to come home and settle down and during his stay in the United States becoming an American citizen, then coming back, perhaps, to the very townland or village in which he was born, either renting or buying a place, not bothering to acquire Irish citizenship and being unable to vote. These are matters which I think should be brought to light and considered.

I fully agree with the previous speaker in regard to qualifications for candidates for local elections. I certainly think part-time officials should not be debarred from standing as candidates. I would go so far as to say that all who are not established civil servants should have the chance, if they wish, to take part in local elections, regardless of whether or not they are attached to a Party or are independent. I see no sense in debarring that type of person; in fact such people who would be able to make a very good contribution to and pull their weight on any local body. Outside of those points, I fully agree with the terms of the motion.

Mr. Sherwin

I do not speak for any Party although I suppose what I have to say will coincide with the views of other Independent members. I agree that the draft proposals should be sent to each Party and a copy should be sent to one of the Independents because we are almost certain to be asked to name a member for this proposed committee of fifteen. We ought to know what we are going to talk about, or have some knowledge of it, so that we can decide whom we shall select. I ask the Minister to ensure that the Independents get a copy of the draft proposals.

In regard to the proposals themselves, I have strong views on many aspects of them because Independents, especially, are at a tremendous disadvantage in fighting elections. An Independent candidate may be a poor man fighting a wealthy Party. In regard to the question of candidates' costs, in the case where a Party owns a newspaper, the use made of that newspaper should be taken into account when considering the Party's expenditure. Suppose £500 is allowed for each person as expenses. If I want to get a write-up in the Irish Press I must pay for it but Party members will get it in for nothing so that they could each get £500 worth of publicity for nothing. It may not be assessed against their individual expenses but if I got the same amount it would be assessed against me. The question of persons standing for membership of the House and having free publicity, because they are members of a Party, should be taken into account when considering candidates' expenses.

There should also be some limit on transport. Possession of wealth should not determine a man's right to be here; these are all matters that must be considered. Those are two matters on which I shall have a lot to say. There is also the question that no official voting cards are sent out on behalf of municipal candidates. Again the individual is at a disadvantage and the Party is not. According to statute, I understand a person may not stand for election to a municipal body if he is in receipt of assistance— at least I saw something to that effect. It would be strange if that still operates because in 1943 I was drawing assistance and I stood for the local elections. The time has now come when it is no shame to be on assistance, seeing that there is no work and that many people are on assistance and will be. If there is any disqualification of that sort it should be removed.

I shall have a lot to say when the proposal to set up this Committee is before the House—I understand we are not at that stage yet—and I am asking now that the Independents be sent a copy of the draft proposals so that we shall know what to do and the best person to send to represent us.

Mr. O'Sullivan

As the Leader of the Opposition has indicated—and the leaders of the other Parties—we are prepared to act on this Committee because it is accepted that this revision is necessary in relation to the laws governing election to the Dáil and local elections. By the time this Committee will have reported it is significant that an examination will have taken place of the methods of election of all members of the Oireachtas with the exception of the Taoiseach's nominees—by way of referendum on the system of election, by commission in the Seanad and by a Joint Committee of Dáil and Seanad in relation to the issues now before the House—and this will remain as the one exclusion from any examination whatsoever. I think it is one which, particularly among the people, occasions some disagreement and is often discussed.

Whoever conceived the idea of the two-tone electors' list and register were on to a "good thing". It was a brilliant idea which is helping the officials very much and it is a pity somebody did not think of it long ago. I do not know whether it was sparked off by this, but I know of a Fianna Fáil candidate who wasted some weeks canvassing from the electors' list instead of the register.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Was he elected?

Mr. O'Sullivan

No; he was defeated in a bye-election in Cork city.

Mr. Moher

He would not be far off the mark.

Mr. O'Sullivan

At any rate, it did not seem to do him any good. There were a few other winds blowing at the time—the cost of living and so on. I would not say he was defeated solely because he was canvassing from the wrong register.

The one inclusion in the terms of reference of this Committee which is foremost in everybody's mind is the right to vote for the Garda. It would remove an inequity which has existed for a long time and which is constantly brought to our notice. It may appear at first glance that, in order to get the work done, the Committee is rather on the large side. I can only assume that that is so in order that the smaller Parties and Independents may be included. If that is the reason, then we welcome it. It is a welcome but belated conversion, after the efforts made to deprive these minorities of any representation in the House, to see the Government realise the advisability of even having them on this Committee.

Dr. Browne

I want to ask the Minister a question. Before doing so, I should say that I think Deputy Sherwin is a bit of an optimist if he thinks the Committee will make a report which is not loaded heavily in favour of the large Parties or groups in the Dáil. One must be very suspicious of this proposal brought in so soon after the recent attempt to eliminate the minority groups in the Dáil in the proposed amendment of the electoral system by means of the referendum. However, there is an old saying that there are more ways of killing a cat than choking it with butter. I hope this was not in the mind of the Government when they decided to set up this Committee—by some other way, to get rid of the difficult minorities they are so impatient of in the Dáil.

Some time ago, following a motion put down here by Deputy McQuillan and myself asking for, as far as I can recall, the abolition of the Seanad, a Commission was established to inquire into the methods of election for Seanad panel members. The terms of reference were that the Commission were to examine the law regulating elections of the panel members of the Seanad and make recommendations regarding any legislative changes, within the provisions of Articles 18 and 19 of the Constitution, which they considered desirable.

I want to know from the Minister to what extent the work of that Commission will overlap the work of this new Committee, to what extent the proposals of the Government in regard to sub-paragraph (c) "The qualifications and disqualifications for membership of each House of the Oireachtas"—to what extent we are now going to alter the qualifications for membership of the Seanad and if there is any attempt here to give us this proposal as a substitute for a much more comprehensive Commission in relation to the new proposals put forward by the Commission in 1959.

I should like to know if this is in any way to be a substitute for legislative proposals to be put forward by the Government arising out of the 1959 Seanad Electoral Law Commission Report. Alternatively, if the Government do intend that the Commission's Report shall be made use of and that it shall become the basis of any considerations or recommendations made by this Committee,. the terms of reference under the motion here should be considerably extended. I should like to know if this is to be a substitute for the proposals put forward as a result of the findings of the Seanad Electoral Law Commission.

Mr. Blaney

Dealing with the general points raised, one which was common to a number of Deputies, including the Leader of the Opposition and Deputy Corish, was their willingness to co-operate with and act on this Committee while at the same time, making it clear that though the Committee might take decisions and make recommendations, unless they were agreed decisions, they would not feel themselves in any way bound by them. Speaking from this side, I hold exactly the same view as the members who have spoken. After the Committee have reported, we also will feel free to consider these proposals. If they come in as agreed proposals or decisions, it is one thing; but whether they come in as agreed proposals or as merely majority proposals or decisions, we shall naturally feel just as free as the other Parties to have a look at them.

Deputy Corish suggested that members of the Civil Service were rather at a disadvantage in so far as the present laws governing Dáil elections and local government elections are concerned. Up to now, civil servants have been by law precluded from being members of this House, but only by Civil Service regulations are they precluded from seeking election to local bodies, with the exceptions already mentioned. In regard to the question of members of staffs of local authorities offering themselves for election as members of their own local authorities—their own employers, if you like—the 1955 Local Government Act precludes them from being elected to the authority for which they work. Possibly that matter might be the subject of various views at this stage, but it is such a short time since the Act came through the House that I am doubtful if any other conclusion is likely to be reached, even by those who have spoken against it just now.

A few Deputies have mentioned the apparent omission of any reference to the matter of votes for the Garda. A few months ago, the Government took the formal decision—the first time it was ever taken by any Government—that the Guards are to have votes. Without any disrespect to the Committee we hope to set up, that decision will stand. It is intended that it will be implemented, regardless of any report that may come in from the Committee.

In so far as the fears expressed by Deputy Dr. Browne are concerned, of some motive behind the setting up of this Committee to make life more difficult, if one likes to put it that way, for the smaller groups in this House and, if I understood him aright, that was part of the fear he had, we—my Department, the Government or myself—were not actuated by any such consideration in putting forward the terms of reference outlined to this House today. I think he can rest fully assured that the motive behind this is clear and above-board, that is, to try to modernise and bring up-to-date the present laws in relation to matters dealing with our elections, our mode of election and so on.

Deputy Dr. Browne also mentioned the question of possible overlapping of the matters to be dealt with by this Committee and the Report of the Commission on Seanad Electoral Law. I just want to say that so far as that matter is concerned, and in regard to the manner in which it was related to qualifications and disqualifications, it does not really arise because the qualifications we are talking of here are those which are common to the members of this House and members of the Seanad. Any matters that would have been dealt with in the Report of the Commission on the Seanad Electoral Law would have to do with qualifications for particular panels. Those about which we are talking here are partly constitutional and partly in the Legislature and therefore anything in the Seanad Commission Report could, in fact, be regarded as complementary to the qualifications and disqualifications of membership of both Houses as we envisage them being discussed, talked about and recommended on by this Committee.

There is little further I have to say, except that I appreciate the manner in which members on all sides of the House indicated a willingness to co-operate in this matter. I am not so optimistic as to expect 100 per cent. co-operation but I am hopeful, as a result of the expressions of co-operation here today, that this Committee will, in fact, be able to bring in a report which will enable an agreed measure to be considered by this House.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think the Minister mentioned the question of the possibility of making available draft material to the Leaders of Parties in anticipation of the election of this Committee.

Mr. Blaney

I omitted it, possibly somewhat deliberately, in the hope that the Deputy would not follow it up. My reasons for that were that I was not immediately inclined to accede to his request, though I can understand his anxiety to get these proposals. My hesitation in agreeing to this is that there are two or three Parties in the House and we have the very natural request that Independents should be given exactly the same thing. Quite honestly, listening to the request and to the observations made on it, it would appear to me that practically any and every Deputy should be entitled to exactly the same consideration.

My reluctance is also based on the fact that such matters are quite complicated and could possibly be complicated in their presentation. Indeed, they are very much more the type of document that can be better considered by the Committee members than disseminated in a general sort of way. For those reasons, I am rather reluctant to accede to the request, though I can see there are good grounds for making it.

Mr. Dillon

I understand the Minister's difficulty and I do not press him to take a final decision now. Possibly the matter might be made the subject of discussion among the Whips. I am solely concerned to see that whatever Deputies are best equipped to discuss this matter in committee will be chosen by the several Parties. I do not press the Minister.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 8 Mar 1960

Electoral Law Amendment: Motion for Joint Committee.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Mar 1960