And women. "Man" is a collective noun in certain instances. I give that as an example. The diploma has no standing here or abroad.
I have pointed out that there is no provision in this £7,000,000 for the faculty of Agriculture in Belfield or anywhere else in Dublin. You have the Albert College, and U.C.C. and U.C.G. but for their third and fourth years they have to come up to Dublin. Everything heads towards Dublin. I heard the Minister himself on a platform on which I spoke with him preach the gospel of decentralisation. The Minister has a very good opportunity of putting those expressions or wishes into concrete form.
I am asking him now to set up the faculty of Agriculture in Limerick. I am not doing that because it is the home of the dairying industry or because it is contiguous to the Golden Vale. There is a golden opportunity for the Minister now. These people have made no provision for the faculty of Agriculture. Three conferences of the Commission were concerned with the position of the faculty of Agriculture and with conditions in the Albert College, Glasnevin. Here is what the Report says:
"University College Dublin is the only college of the universities which had the full agricultural faculty. In University College Cork and University College Galway, only the first and second years of the course are taught. The third and fourth years of the degree course for all colleges (the professional part of the course) are followed exclusively in University College Dublin, in the former Albert College Glasnevin.
"The number of agricultural students has been growing and the college has now ceased to conduct the residential course thus making the whole of the Albert College available for the faculty courses.
What about the sons of small farmers? When the Albert College was a residential college, they could live in there for an all-in fee. Now they have to come to Dublin and pay £3-10-0 a week for "digs." We are told by some professors in University College Dublin that the number of students from Limerick in Dublin is not very impressive. Of course it is not impressive. How could they afford to come up here? What is the use of talking about sending the sons of small farmers or of any farmers to Dublin for the study of agriculture? It is not because Lieutenant-General Costello set up the headquarters of Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann in St. Stephen's Green that everyone else should follow his example. The Minister has a golden opportunity.
The President of University College, Dublin was here yesterday. He told the Commission that the college representatives could say that for the academic teaching of agriculture they were reasonably well off, but in order to bring the College up to date a further expenditure of £20,000 would be necessary to provide additional facilities for plant pathology, for laboratory research in soil science, etc. and this figure might have to be increased somewhat, if, as now appeared likely, certain repair and renovation work had to be carried out.
The College's greatest problems in relation to the Albert College, the President said, were farm buildings and farm lands. There is an area of 350 acres in all at the Albert College property, of which about 300 acres are effective farming land. The farm is in two sections; some land had to be given to the Dublin Corporation for the initial extension of Collins Avenue and it may be that this Avenue will be carried right through the farm. Many difficulties have arisen from the fact that the farm is surrounded by built-up areas.
There are eight miles of perimeter and ten miles of internal fencing. There is constant trouble with this fencing and the lands are subject to trespass by adults, children and dogs. It was instanced that some years ago seven years' research on potatoes had been ruined overnight when an experimental plot of potatoes had been uprooted. The field where it was hoped to plant spring wheat was crossed by an unauthorised Mass path. These difficulties, the President said, raised the question whether the College should continue to conduct the faculty of Agriculture at the Albert college.
The President of University College Dublin, Dr. Tierney, asked that question. He asked "The thing is whether University College Dublin should continue to conduct the faculty of Agriculture at the Albert College?" The Minister now has an opportunity to have his name go down in history. I am not casting any aspersions on his abilities. He has plenty of ability if he does not allow himself to be overruled by some of these officials who are also very able men. If the late Mr. Seán Moylan were Minister for Education now, the faculty of Agriculture would be started in Limerick and Mr. Moylan was a very capable man. The Minister himself is not lacking in intelligence.
They cannot carry on in Albert College. They represent to the Commission that the Science and Research faculties in the third and fourth year cannot be provided for in the main College buildings but must be located on the farm. A farm, it was represented, is an essential adjunct for a faculty of Agriculture and, unless an adequate farm can be provided with the rest of the College, the teaching facilities for the third and fourth years of the courses cannot be provided in the main College buildings but must be located on the farm. The deputation continued that while the separation of the teaching and laboratory accommodation for the third and fourth years of the course from the rest of the College might involve some sacrifice, it was essential that such accommodation should be provided on the faculty farm, if only for the convenience and saving of time made possible when the theoretical class can be brought within five minutes to where the principles taught in the classroom can be illustrated in practice.
It was stated also that the properties which the College have at Stillorgan Road would not be sufficient to provide a faculty farm so that on top of the £7,000,000 which the Government are seeking now they will have to come back here for a further substantial sum.
Professor Ruane told the Commission that a factor which would determine the size of farm necessary would be the desirability of having within the College farm a number of different size farm units—one of 50 acres, one of 100 acres and one of 150 acres where the principles of efficient farming of holdings of these sizes could be illustrated. The College, in his opinion, should have a farm of about 300 acres for teaching in research purposes, and, as well, a farm of 200 acres operated as an efficient business unit where the principles of efficient farm management could be observed in practice.
That is what they have not got. That is what we have down South. The President of University College Dublin said that a decision to acquire a new farm would have to be taken within ten years. Professor Ruane is in agreement with his President and said he thought that it would be preferable to face the problem before the position would become untenable. The teaching of students could not be satisfactory if the position of the College farm is to become progressively more difficult.
Here is a Commission set up by the Government and those are the observations brought to the attention of the Government and the Minister. Our fundamental industry, agriculture, has not been mentioned at all in this Estimate. Is that not fantastic? Yet we mouth all those clichés that agriculture is the backbone of our whole economic life.
Winding up the discussion, they said:
The teaching and laboratory accommodation of the agricultural faculty in the former Albert College is, as has been stated, in part domestic accommodation which has been converted. This accommodation is not capable of being rendered permanently suitable for its present purposes. Low-ceilinged dormitories are not suitable for laboratories.
I was always under the impression that the Agricultural Institute, which was set up with the American grant, would have a faculty of Agriculture. That is not so. Our premier industry is agriculture and it is being taught in low ceilinged dormitories to the men who are supposed to teach the farmers how to increase output and become more efficient. The Commission say:
Low ceilinged dormitories are not suitable for laboratories, and long narrow rooms are quite unsuitable for lecture halls. An important research project—potentially of great value to agriculture—which we were shown was housed, for lack of a better place, in an out-office.
These are the facts.
We are told that the Minister is going to set up a Commission. We have not heard what the terms of reference of the Commission will be. We have been told that he proposes to set up a Commission to survey the field of higher education. What does that mean? Can anyone tell me? If I were Minister for Agriculture—a contingency which will never arise—I would not go home for the Easter holidays but would stay in Dublin and come to a decision about the faculty of Agriculture. For God's sake and Ireland's sake, apart from Limerick's sake, get this faculty out of Dublin. The golden opportunity is there now. Is the Minister going to provide them with £100,000 or £200,000 as a rescue operation—to use the phrase he used in his introductory speech? Surely he should catch the bull by the horns and tackle the problem now.
The Minister spoke for one and a quarter hours yesterday on the subject of education. It is a terrible reflection on us that he made no reference of any consequence to the faculty of Agriculture. I will be reasonable. Supposing Limerick did not exist—a consummation devoutly to be wished by many people, possibly—supposing there was no mention of Limerick, could the Minister not channel the funds into U.C.C. or U.C.G. for the provision of increased agricultural facilities so that the students in the third and fourth year, instead of travelling to Dublin, could stay at one of those universities? Is there any reason why they cannot finish the third and fourth years there?
The only solution that I see is not necessarily to set up such a Commission. This question of agriculture cannot be dealt with by the Commission the Minister is setting up on higher education, which will take three to five years to report back, and the Minister could be Minister for another Department by that time, or in some other position. Seriously speaking, it is necessary that the problem should be tackled within a reasonable time while the Minister is in the Department. It would be very unwise to include the question of a faculty of Agriculture in the terms of reference of the Commission on higher education.
I would have no objection if the Minister were to invite certain people to advise him and the Government as to (a) what steps are necessary for the improvement of agricultural education; (b) how the existing agricultural colleges could be approved, by an amendment of the existing charter of the National University of Ireland, so that certain years could be credited to them and (c) where a faculty of Agriculture for the whole of Ireland should be located.
If Albert College want another 400 to 500 acres of land, there is no suggestion as to where that land could be obtained. Is the Minister suggesting that the land in the vicinity of Albert College would be suitable for the purpose of pilot farms of 100 to 200 acres? There is not a great deal of training needed if one wants to become a rancher. One needs to be reared to the cattle trade from the age of 10 years. The Minister would not seriously suggest that Albert College should be given permission to buy 500 acres around here? The land would not be suitable for tillage, for research or for giving practical experience of the dairying industry.
This position is heartbreaking. I shall do all in my limited capacity to see that some quick decision is taken in regard to agriculture. I shall do all I can to secure that some decision will be made in regard to the representations which have been before the Department for quite a while, to see whether we can get a decision from the Government in principle. In a few minutes yesterday the Minister for the Gaeltacht, Deputy Michael Moran, was given £3 million by this House for the drainage of the Moy, and I made the telling point that £2 million would stop the drain of young people from that part of the country.
This Fianna Fáil Government are the first Government to do anything constructive in relation to the critical position at Earlsfort Terrace; be that to their credit and be it to their credit that they have accepted the findings of the majority report in regard to locating the site at Belfield. It is a pity they did not also bear in mind the observations in the report I have here. This question of a University in Limerick is not of recent origin. During the Mayoralty of the former Alderman Michael Hartney I recall a meeting being called to which the late Most Reverend Dr. Patrick O'Neill, Bishop of Limerick, gave his unstinted support, and the following is reported:
(a) For many years past there has been a persistent and a growing demand for the provision of University facilities for the sons and daughters of parents living in the populus area of which Limerick City (the third city in the State) is the natural centre. This demand has found various expression over the years, notably in the setting up of a representative committee some 14 years ago, under the Chairmanship of the late Most Reverend Dr. Patrick O'Neill, Bishop of Limerick, and in the attention the subject has received from parents, teachers, schools, commercial, cultural and other bodies.
(b) It has been contended—quite rightly in the opinion of this committee, that the vast majority of parents cannot afford to send their children to Dublin, Cork or Galway, and in consequence, University education in this area has been confined to the children of the well-to-do and those young people who have been successful in securing the small number of scholarships offered annually by the local Councils and the State. In the case of the latter, of course, the parents are still obliged to find a substantial yearly sum to augment the value of the scholarships.
The raising of Limerick to the status of a University City would be of great benefit to its commercial life. I would ask the Minister to note the figures submitted to him by these committees and the upward tendency in regard to secondary education. In 1936-37 in Limerick City alone there were 1,248 secondary school students. It should also be noted that Limerick County, Clare, North Tipperary and North Kerry have all passed resolutions in this regard. There is no parochialism in these areas because they regard Limerick as a natural location for this constituent college, realising that it will be of benefit to them. In 1936-37 there were 4,624 secondary school children in this area of North Munster and in 1958-59 that number grew to 11,000. Comparing Cork, Limerick and Galway from the point of view of size and population we find that in 1957-58 there were 3,700 secondary school children in Cork, 2,200 in Limerick and 1,100 in Galway.
I pointed out some time ago that other bodies besides Limerick sought extra-mural courses. I specifically mentioned the higher diploma in Education. Would the Minister tell me what is the background to this peculiar state of affairs? I read from this report which I have already quoted:
(c) With the co-operation of U.C.C. to provide courses in Limerick for the Higher Diploma in Education. This matter was first raised at an early meeting of the Committee when it was unanimously agreed that the establishment of such a course in Limerick would be a valuable step forward. At present, this course is confined to the University Centres with consequent great inconvenience to teachers, resident in and near Limerick. In fact, the Committee are aware of certain teachers who have been teaching in this area for years and have never had the opportunity of securing the H. Dip. in Education.
With the co-operation of Dr. Atkins and the helpful and encouraging support of his Lordship Most Reverend Dr. Murphy, considerable progress was made in arranging for a start to be made on this course in October, 1959. A senior lecturer was engaged after much difficulty; assistant lecturers were to be recruited locally and accommodation was readily available. Following these steps, a notice appeared in the Press announcing that the authorities of U.C.C. were considering the provision of a H. Dip. in Educ. course in Limerick and inviting intending candidates to notify the Registrar of the college. Hardly had this notice appeared when a circular letter was sent to each candidate who had applied to take the course in Limerick stating that ‘owing to various problems which had arisen it would not be possible to provide such a course in 1959-60.'
This turn of events came as a great disappointment to the committee and, needless to say, to the intending participants in the proposed Limerick course. The committee understand that almost 60 candidates applied to take the course in Limerick. Of these, about half had the necessary qualifications required by the University authorities.
The Minister has a problem of the greatest magnitude on his hands. It will not be easy to arrive at a solution but the longer he thinks of the problems that confront him the deeper he will get into the mire. The longer he stays in the Department of Education the more departmentally-minded he will become. Now is a time for him, in the full flush of youth and inexperience, to take action. Inexperience is a tremendous thing sometimes because one can, as an outsider, consider the pros and cons without being committed to any fixed point of view. This does not require the advice of any Departmental officials as such; it requires common-sense. As I said at the outset, if the Minister would agree to my statement that the economic expansion plan envisaged too long a period and if he agrees that what is needed in Ireland now is an industrial, an agricultural and an intellectual revolution all over a period of five years, then he must act quickly in these matters.
As things are, there are proposals in the Department of Education which are evidently to be discussed by Commissions and future Commissions of the Department. The school-going children of today will not alone not have the facilities we are advocating but their children will be very lucky if University education has been improved by their time up to the standard we want, not alone in the Department of Education but in Ireland generally. The whole trouble is this delay— there is not a sufficient spirit of being up and doing.
It is very little use for the Taoiseach to make speeches about increased productivity or for the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Education himself to follow on similar lines if they do not do their part. Surely it is accepted that if the farmer is to give increased productivity and output, the maxim should be that he should have the best advice available in the State? After all, if a patient is sick the best physician or surgeon should be called and his advice taken. Does the Minister seriously suggest that his neglect and the neglect of his Department to create a Faculty of Agriculture can continue in view of the position of this country where agriculture is supposed to be the mainstay? Is he being realistic? It will be a bad day's work if some quick decision on this matter is not taken. Naturally, I am biassed in favour of having this University located in Limerick. I do not know where else it could be located——
