Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 8

Elections Bill, 1960—Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Blaney)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Bill is designed to meet the suggestion that to facilitate electors and, incidentally, to achieve some economies, the by-election due in the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency should be held on the same day as the local elections in the Counties of Carlow and Kilkenny and the County Borough of Waterford. Under the Bill the implementation of this suggestion is conditional on the writ for the by-election being moved not later than 1st June.

We do not wish to pre-judge the general question of whether Dáil elections should be held on the same day as local elections which could be regarded as coming within the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on Electoral Law. The Bill now before the House has, therefore, been drafted so as to cover this one specific occasion only.

At first glance, the Bill is rather a complex one considering the apparent simplicity of the matter with which it deals. Much of this complexity is due to diffences in the personnel and areas involved in Dáil and local elections. For instance, the returning officer at the Dáil election is the county registrar. The returning officers at the local elections would be the county secretaries and town clerks. It is essential that the one person should have responsibility for the arrangements for the polls at all the elections if the polls are to be taken on the same day. Section 7 accordingly provides that the returning officer for the purposes of the polls at the elections will be the county registrar, who will be empowered to call on the county secretaries and town clerks to assist him.

Further, there are slight differences in one of the counties between the polling districts for the Dáil elections and those for local elections. To get over this difficulty, it is provided in Section 8 that the poll will be taken at the local election polling places.

Most of the remaining sections of the Bill are more or less of a routine character. Section 9 makes the usual provisions where the polls at two or more elections are taken on the same day, for the same persons being appointed as presiding officers at each of the elections, the same official mark for the ballot papers, the ballot papers at the different elections not being invalidated if put in the wrong box, etc. In connection with the provisions of the section, I may mention that there is no power in the local elections code such as exists in the code dealing with Dáil elections, enabling the Minister to extend the time for polling from 9 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. Section 9 will give this power for the local elections in the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency.

Under Section 10, an authorisation by the returning officer to a person employed by him who is prevented by the circumstances of his employment on polling day from voting at the polling station allotted to him, to vote at the by-election at another polling station in the constituency, will operate to enable him to vote at that polling station at the local elections if the other polling station is in an electoral area in which he is entitled to vote.

Provisions as to expenses, which will be shared between the State and the local authorities, are contained in Section 11. At this point, I may mention the amount of the saving which it is estimated would accrue from the holding of the by-election and local elections on the same day. The amount is estimated to be of the order of about £1,400 or less.

Section 12 contains the usual provisions in Bills of this kind, for the maintenance of secrecy by persons concerned in the elections. The necessity for the section arises from the fact that without it a person in attendance at a polling station or at the count in connection with the Dáil election would be under no statutory obligation to maintain secrecy as to the proceedings at the local elections which he might witness and vice versa.

Articles 19 and 31 of the Fifth Schedule to the Electoral Act, 1923, provide for the exclusion of all persons, except those immediately concerned, from polling stations, and the count of Dáil elections. Similar provisions apply at the local elections. The purpose of Section 13 is to enable an agent or candidate at the Dáil election to be present as a matter of right at a polling station or at a count at the local elections and vice versa.

Rule 30 of the Fifth Schedule of the Electoral Act, 1923, as inserted by Section 2 of the Electoral (Amendment) Act, 1946, provides that where, as in the present case, a constituency consists wholly or partly of a county borough, the returning officer shall appoint, as the place at which the votes shall be counted, some place within the county borough. It may not be found the most convenient or expeditious arrangement in this case if the polls are taken together, that the votes should be counted in Waterford City; and it may be necessary to direct that they should be counted elsewhere. It is also desirable to provide for other minor administrative difficulties which may arise, due to differences in the legislative codes dealing with local and Dáil elections. Section 14 makes provisions to enable these difficulties to be dealt with.

In conclusion, I may say that the local authorities concerned have fixed 23rd June as polling day at the local elections. If it should be decided to take the poll at the by-election on the same day as the local elections, it is my intention to fix 23rd June as the combined polling day.

Mr. O'Donnell

We in Fine Gael welcome this Bill. Any Bill which effects a saving of £1,400 is welcome. It is a pity that we do not see such Bills more often. Bills in which common sense overrides red tape and economies are effected. There is just one matter that I should like to mention. The Minister, and I think I myself when I was Minister, gave an undertaking that on the first opportunity the franchise would be extended to the Garda. It is a tragedy that such a section was not inserted in this Bill. I wonder is it too late now to insert a provision on the Committee Stage to enable Gardaí to vote? They will be voting in the local elections and it would be very desirable if they could cast the dual vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

This seems to be outside the scope of the Bill.

Mr. O'Donnell

It would be possible, with respect, to bring in an amending section on the Committee Stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not seem to come within the scope of the Bill.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is an elections Bill and I am merely asking the Minister to extend the Electoral Acts.

An Ceann Comhairle

For a particular purpose.

Mr. O'Donnell

It may be an ad hoc Bill but it should be possible to adopt my suggestion. Anyhow I am merely asking the Minister to look into the matter and see if it would be possible.

I also hope that the arrangement expressed in the Bill will be complied with and that both of the county secretaries, who in the ordinary course would be the returning officers, will be retained as assistant returning officers on this day. I am certain that the Minister does not for one moment wish to detract in any way from the important part they play in their position as returning officers.

Mr. Corish

We have no objection to this Bill. I do not want to attempt, either, to enlarge the scope of this discussion but I should like to know whether the Minister can make provision now for the employment of certain people during election time. One of the biggest grievances of many of the unemployed is that they are not employed as presiding officers or poll clerks in local elections or in general elections. I know that it is not possible to employ many of them in that capacity but it does seem that there are many people registered as unemployed who could act competently as presiding officers and as poll clerks. I know it is very difficult for the Minister—it may be impossible for him— to legislate to ensure that unemployed people would be employed in elections such as those for which we are now legislating. However, might I say that he made the first move in setting up the commission on franchise and elections generally some few months ago and, perhaps, that is one aspect of local and general elections into which he might ask them to look?

Like Deputy O'Donnell, I am all in favour of giving the Gardai votes but there are many other people who should also be considered. I do not think it would be possible to consider them in the limited time at our disposal or to provide for them in the coming election. I refer to commercial travellers, people who are confined to hospital and such types of people who for the greater part of their lifetime, have been deprived of votes in local and general elections. I think the Minister ought to consider at some other stage, or in some other legislation, making provision to ensure that such people will be enabled to cast their votes.

Mr. Dillon

We commend this Bill to the House. While it is true that the economy referred to—£1,400—is an important consideration, I think it right to place on record that when we suggested to the Government that something along these lines should be done, we had primarily in mind the convenience of the electors in these two counties, inasmuch as it seemed to us to be an unreasonable burden to put on them to hold what would be substantially two elections within a very short period. The Government are to be commended in that when that proposal was put to them, they accepted the suggestion in principle and have with expedition produced what the Minister has fairly described as being a more complex Bill than one would have anticipated for so simple a purpose. Inevitably, dealing with electoral law does involve very careful procedure and doubtless this Bill could not have been made less complex than in fact it is. The Minister and his Department are to be congratulated on the expedition with which they met these proposals and were in a position to bring this legislation to the House, both for the purpose of economy and in consideration of the convenience of the electorate who, in the last analysis, it does us good to remember are our ultimate masters, wherever we sit in Dáil Éireann.

Mr. Sweetman

I want to raise a few points in regard to the mechanics of the elections. It might be easier to raise these matters now than on Committee Stage. As I understand Section 3, once this Bill is signed and has become an Act, if the writ is then moved, the effect of Section 3 is to abolish, for the purposes of this writ, the ordinary seven days and nine days for nomination and the ordinary 19 and 21 days thereafter for the election. I am not quite clear, therefore, what happens about nominations. The Minister has indicated he is going to fix polling day as 23rd June: I understand that but I am not clear how the time for nomination is fixed.

Secondly, I am not clear beyond question in respect of Section 7. Am I right in thinking that the effect of that section is that the county registrar for each county is not merely the person who becomes the returning officer when the votes come into the ballot boxes but is also the person who appoints all the officials, the presiding officers and poll clerks, decides whether there are to be one, two or three booths at any particular station, decides how they will be split, whether No. 1 booth will be for electors with numbers 1-450 and No. 2 booth for those with numbers 451-900, or does the county secretary do that?

Thirdly, is it proposed to have separate, coloured ballot papers for the Dáil by-election and the county election and any urban election there may be in the area? Is it proposed that there will be a separate box in each polling booth for the reception of individual ballot papers? I appreciate that it is stated here that if a ballot paper gets into the wrong box, that does not invalidate it, but I am not clear whether that would only be in an urban area or in a booth where there are a large number on the register and where it might mean that papers would be confused if there were only one box but, in the ordinary number of booths right throughout the length and breadth of the constituency, is it proposed to have two boxes in each booth, one for the County Council election and one for the Dáil election and, where there is an election for urban and town commissioners also, to have a third box for them?

If not, will all the papers be sorted and segregated and when sorted and segregated in the count, will the different ballot papers be handed over to the county secretary first to deal with his arrangements thereafter and the Dáil papers handed over to the county registrar? I am ignoring for the moment that there are two county registrars involved.

What worries me a little about it is that unless everything is counted in the same place you will have a situation in which, the voting papers having been taken out of the ballot boxes into which they were put by the electors, the presiding officers' return having been checked and the number of ballot boxes therefore having been verified as correct, there will be a lot of ballot papers flying around. I think it is almost essential to have them counted in the same place.

If that is the case, it will be possible for one count to take place first. Is not the only possible way of dealing with the matter, therefore, to have all the ballot boxes opened so as to make sure that Dáil ballot papers have not been put in county council ballot boxes and when they have been opened and checked together to have one count suspended until the other is finished? Otherwise, I do not see how you can cope with the situation that a ballot paper has been put in the wrong box and—properly—not thereby invalidated and still therefore a valid paper.

It is immaterial to me whether the Minister deals with what I have raised now or on Committee Stage but I thought that as he might possibly want the Report Stage immediately after the Committee Stage, it would be easier for him if I raised the points now.

Mr. Sherwin

I want to go on record as opposing this measure. I think it is a bad principle to have local and Dáil elections at the same time because the view has been held that the people involved in the municipal election and the Dáil election are very often the same and having the two elections together will be confusing to quite a number of people, to sufficient people to alter the decision in certain cases. On the occasion of the recent general election, we had the referendum on the same day and the Fianna Fáil Party made the issue "Yes and de Valera". They coupled the two— which was wrong—and we shall have the same propaganda in this election. The canvassers working for one will be canvassing at the same time for the other and in the same literature there will be advocacy for their Party, their political nominee and their local authority nominee.

The result will be people will be led into voting along purely political lines for local candidates. Both types of candidates should be kept fields apart. Local issues should not be mixed with issues of a political nature. Public representatives here in the Dáil are engaged mainly in legislating. In local bodies it is the manager who decides; he is a dictator. There is quite a difference and, because of that, there is strong objection taken to organised political Parties holding representation on municipal councils. Having the two issues decided on the one day will result in the success of purely political nominees.

I happened at one time to be a member of the Fianna Fáil Party. It is a long time ago, but I remember being present at a meeting at which the former Taoiseach gave it as his opinion that political Parties should not contest municipal elections as Parties. I am in full support of that statement. But his followers turned a deaf ear to it. That was his opinion and he never changed it. Recently Deputy Mulcahy said at the Ard Fheis that he did not agree with Parties contesting municipal elections but they had to follow suit. I hold that it is entirely wrong and the sooner organised political Parties get out of municipal affairs the better it will be. At the moment there is nothing but bloc voting. The chief aim, so far as Dublin is concerned, seems to be to capture the Dublin mayoralty. Most of these political nominees attend twice in the year. They make certain to attend the day the mayoral election is on. There should be no politics in municipal affairs. If these elections are held simultaneously in Carlow-Kilkenny we shall have nothing but political nominees returned in both instances.

I object in principle to this. I object to the people being fooled. I object to this business of: "Yes, and de Valera". I object to the same canvassers for elections to both the Dáil and local authorities. It would be better to spend another £1,400, and save the people from being confused, and guard against injustice in some cases. There will be injustice if Independents, who would like to become members of local authorities, are pushed to one side by the big Party machine. I object to this principle and I want to go on record now as so objecting.

Mr. Blaney

I shall take the various matters in the order in which they were raised. Deputy O'Donnell made a plea for a vote for the Gardai in this particular election. It is not possible, it is neither feasible nor practicable, to do that now, even with the best will in the world and the full approval of the House. They are not on the register. They cannot now be put on the register and so there is no possibility of including them.

Deputy O'Donnell may have given an undertaking when he was Minister for Local Government. I also have given that undertaking. Over and above that, the Government have decided that Gardai will have votes. It is expected that provision along those lines will be included in the statutes of this House, if the House approves, before the next General Election.

Deputy Corish raised a point which is very often raised in connection with elections. He said that the unemployed should be, where possible——

Mr. Corish

Where suitable.

Mr. Blaney

—— where suitable, employed as clerks and presiding officers. The statutory position is that the returning officer, who is charged with full responsibility for the carrying out of the election, has absolute discretion in this matter. I have made the same sort of plea to returning officers in the past as Deputy O'Donnell has made here today. I, too, would make that plea again today; where suitable unemployed are available they should, in fact, be employed. In the last analysis, however, the matter is solely in the discretion of the returning officers. By and large, I am sure these returning officers have regard to the people about whom Deputy Corish is concerned. I am sure that on this occasion they will have regard to the claims of these people and will employ as many of them as possible.

The Leader of the Opposition quite correctly pointed out, in welcoming the Bill, that it was not solely a question of saving £1,400. Of much greater importance is the question of the convenience of the public and of voters in general. I entirely agree with that view. It is that which has weighed in our estimation of this particular matter.

Deputy Sweetman raised some interesting points in regard to details upon which I hope to satisfy the House. I have been asked what procedure would be followed in regard to nominations and so on. The procedure will be the normal procedure but, superimposed on that, will be the situation which will arise if this Bill is passed. I, as Minister for Local Government, will be empowered, provided the writ is moved in sufficient time, as we presume it will, by Order to arrange that the 23rd day of June will be polling day for both elections. In addition, the day on which the writ will be deemed to have been received by the returning officer will coincide with the day deemed to be the day on which he receives it rather than the day on which he might have received it. That will bring the matter into line so that the normal procedure with regard to days, times, and the time lag between nomination and polling, will correspond to normal procedure.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister's Order will also, in fact, determine the last day for nominations as well.

Mr. Blaney

Not absolutely. There will still be that little discretion.

Mr. Sweetman

The seventh to the ninth day.

Mr. Blaney

It is the purpose of the Order not only to fix the day but to make it possible, regardless of the moving of the writ, for the returning officer to move so that he can comply with the wishes of everybody with regard to the days. The ballot papers will be of different colours. For example, if there are three elections, as there will be in some areas, there will be three differently coloured ballot papers. Different ballot boxes will also be available but steps have been taken to ensure that, should the wrong boxes be used, that will not invalidate a voting paper.

This type of administrative procedure is not quite new in the sense that there is the parallel of the Presidential election and the local authority elections of 1945. An amount of what might appear to be detailed administrative difficulties have in fact been met before and there has been some experience of dealing with them. I am sure that experience will be used to the full to overcome any difficulties on this occasion.

Mr. Sweetman

Might I interrupt the Minister before he passes from the question of the boxes? There is a physical difficulty in regard to the boxes. I know that in my own constituency of Kildare, there are not sufficient boxes to have separate boxes for each election. Has the Minister got them in the Board of Works stores?

Mr. Blaney

We have. I understand there will be no difficulty whatever in that regard.

Mr. Sweetman

I knew the number held locally would not be sufficient.

Mr. Blaney

Apparently there will not be any difficulty in that regard. We have sufficient and we shall gladly give them out. The recruitment of polling staff has been arranged. The county registrar—in the case of this dual constituency, it will be the county registrar of Kilkenny—will provide all polling staff for polling stations within the constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny, and that staff will operate all elections, be they local, urban or by-elections. He will also appoint the counting staff for the by-election count, whereas the staff for the local election counts will be appointed by the county secretaries or, in the case of urbans, possibly by town clerks. That is the distinction.

These are, I think, the main points raised. If there are any further points, I shall try to elucidate them as they are raised.

Mr. Sweetman

Might I ask the Minister a question? I understand from what he says now that the county registrar of Kilkenny is, shall we say, the senior returning officer. He will take the boxes for both Carlow and Kilkenny into Kilkenny?

Mr. Blaney

Probably. We shall have to decide that.

Mr. Sweetman

My difficulty is this. The question of the Dáil boxes is simple. As I said, however, the Act properly provides that if a ballot paper is put in the wrong box, it is not invalid. It seems to me therefore that all the Carlow County Council ballot boxes must be opened and that the Carlow Urban Council ballot boxes, Muinebeag Town Commissioners ballot boxes or any other local authority ballot boxes also must be opened. Will they all be brought into Kilkenny and opened there to see if there is in them by mistake any Dáil ballot papers and will they then be sent back to Carlow so that the Carlow urban ballot papers may be counted? Will the three boxes from Muinebeag Town Commissioners be sent back to Muinebeag and will all the Carlow County Council boxes be sent back again from Kilkenny? That would seem to cause a little unnecessary difficulty. Equally, I cannot see how the clerk of the Muinebeag Town Commissioners will count in Muinebeag and then send a runner across from Muinebeag to Kilkenny with any Dáil ballot papers found in his boxes. Of course, Waterford comes into it as well.

Mr. Blaney

To keep the thing in order, might we get on to the Committee Stage? I would prefer that because this is developing into a Committee Stage discussion.

Mr. Sherwin

If Deputy Sweetman is so confused, God help the people.

Question put and agreed to.