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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Elections Bill, 1960—Committee Stage.

Sections 1 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That Section 7 stand part of the Bill."

In regard to this question of the count, undoubtedly if we wanted to find difficulties, we could find them in the sort of situation which appears likely to arise in regard to the counting of the various boxes in different centres. However, we have to remember that the presiding officers will be warned to make every effort to ensure that the ballot papers go into the proper boxes. Assuming that after the election the checking of all votes will commence at the same time, although perhaps in different places, which is quite in order, this will be the procedure: First, the local authority election returning officers, on checking their boxes, will be obliged to extract from them any papers which rightfully belong to the Dáil elections. Undoubtedly, those papers will have to find their way to the centre appointed for the double county constituency, which is Kilkenny. I do not think that will give rise to any undue problems. The main thing is that it will not cause any difficulty in the sense that a wrong result might be arrived at during the transit of any of these papers from one point to another.

As I say, this could give rise to difficulties, but not insurmountable difficulties, if we are, as we all appear to be, anxious to have both elections on the same day. There is no doubt that these difficulties can be got over. The experience in 1945, which is a parallel case, did not disclose any insurmountable difficulties in this regard. I am relying to a large extent on the experience gained throughout the country at that time for guidance in this matter. On the surface, it would appear to be a difficult problem, but I think in operation it may not prove to be so difficult.

In that Presidential election, there was a slight difference to this extent: on that occasion it was merely a question of the county registrar in any constituency giving a certificate of the total number of votes cast for the individual candidates. It was not a question of carrying out any further operations such as transfers and so forth. Frankly, I am a little worried that there is not sufficient safeguard in paragraph (e) of Section 9. I think it is better that we discuss them all together. It will save time.

7, 8 and 9 would seem to be the same.

I think they would be more or less the same. I can understand that the question of an odd vote would not cause a terrible lot of difficulty. The presiding officers's ballot paper account will be out of balance to the extent of the paper missing.

Supposing in Kilkenny the presiding officer's ballot paper account for, shall we say, No. 1 box in Carlow town, is in order—supposing the presiding officer's balance paper account for the Dáil election for all the Carlow urban area is in order, and there are 23 boxes in Carlow, and there is no Dáil election paper therefore missing, but a bunch of Dáil papers are found in one of the boxes in Kilkenny, it seems to me that this is the difficulty in the two locations, that there is no way of rectifying the matter and having a check-up such as there would be if they were all together. I think there should be something in paragraph (e), if separate ballot boxes are provided, to the effect that if a ballot paper is not put into the appropriate ballot box it shall not invalidate the ballot paper, as the inclusion of the ballot paper was in accordance with the presiding officer's ballot paper account. In other words, you would have a proper physical check and then you would have some check such as the presiding officer's ballot paper account, to show he was short of a ballot paper. If one does not have this, I can see quite considerable confusion arising when the wrong coloured ballot papers are taken out of a big urban election area like Carlow and have to be sent across to Kilkenny.

Did the Minister say he can supply coloured ballot papers?

Would it be possible to have the boxes temporarily coloured the same as the ballot papers? It might facilitate matters.

There is usually a label on the ballot boxes that is the same colour as the ballot papers.

There will be placards on the ballot boxes.

No matter how you do it people usually make mistakes.

That is true but this might relieve the Deputy's mind. Under the Presidential and Local Election Regulations of 1945, which would be claimed under Section 14 of this Bill to apply by direction, regulations Nos. 13 and 14 deal on the one hand with urban boxes and papers, vis-á-vis the Presidential papers, as was the case then, and on the other hand with the county council papers vis-á-vis the Presidential election papers. They are rather lengthy but if the House would wish me to read them I shall do so.

Are they as long as all that?

Possibly not.

These will be adapted into this?

Yes, and possibly if we find any more useful and better type of direction, we are taking powers under Section 14 to make them adaptable to this situation. However, this is as near a parallel to it as we have got at the moment. No. 13 reads:

As soon as possible after the close of the polls in a particular borough, urban district or town situated in his constituency a local returning officer shall collect in one place in such borough, urban district or town all the ballot boxes used in such polls and, after due notice to and in the presence of every agent, shall comply with the following provisions that is to say:—

(a)he shall open every such ballot box and examine every ballot paper contained therein;

(b)if any presidential ballot papers are contained in an urban ballot box he shall remove them and place them in a separate packet;

(c)if any county ballot papers are contained in an urban ballot box he shall remove them and place them in a separate packet;

(d)if any urban ballot papers are contained in a ballot box other than an urban ballot box he shall remove them and place them in a separate packet;

(e)he shall close every such ballot box, with the remaining ballot papers therein, seal such ballot box with his own seal and allow any agent who so desires also to seal such ballot box with his seal.

That is with regard to urban towns and boroughs and we can use the by-election rather than the Presidential election, for the wording of that.

No. 14 of the same regulations reads as follows:

After the close of the several polls in a county electoral area situated in his constituency and not later than 9 a.m. on the 15th day of June, 1945, every local returning officer shall collect in one place all the ballot boxes other than urban ballot boxes used in such polls and after due notice to and in the presence of every agent shall comply with the following provisions that is to say:—

That one follows the same line?

In the same way except it is county transferring to by-election, to urban, and so on. It really goes right down the line and that is the parallel we can work on. If we find we can improve on them we will, and we are seeking powers under Section 14 so to direct returning officers at various levels to carry out their duties in that manner.

I think it is fair enough.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 8 to 12, inclusive, put and agreed to.
SECTION 13.
Question proposed: "That Section 13 stand part of the Bill."

I take it that a personation agent on behalf of a candidate is entitled, if appointed by a Dáil candidate, to operate also in respect of the local elections in that area?

That is right.

Otherwise a person coming in attempting to personate could say he was not looking for a Dáil paper, that he was looking for a county council paper.

Not only can such a personation agent act for local elections, but we reverse that. Anybody appointed for local elections may also operate for Dáil elections.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 14 and 15 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

Tomorrow morning. I should just like to think over that question of ballot papers.

Report Stage ordered for Thursday, May 12th, 1960.
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