Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 1960

Vol. 182 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Office of the Minister for Social Welfare (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a sum not exceeding £335,800 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1961, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

Mr. Jones

When progress was reported last night, I was referring to some of the disabilities which applicants for various types of social assistance suffer with regard to the application of the means tests. I cited a number of these cases. Another type of case which I met concerned an applicant for an old age pension whose husband was in employment in England. He was sending home a small amount per week to his wife. She lived with her married son. There was a cottage plot and a cow. The position was that these means were assessed against her in her application. What I was trying to convey was that in the application of this code and the regulations which govern an award of pension the officials should find on the side of the applicant rather than on the terms of the strict enforcement of the regulations.

Might I inquire from the Minister regarding a statement I saw published in my constituency, concerning the three days waiting period in connection with unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance, whether it is a fact that the three day waiting period is being abolished? In regard to widows' and orphans' pensions the manner in which the age clause is applied at the moment does result in cases of hardship. Take the case of a widow under 48 years whose children, still under 16 years of age, are at school. If a child is over 16 and the widow is still under 48, I understand that the widow's pension ceases until such time as she reaches 48.

The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister will appreciate the fact that in rural areas it is not easy for a woman at that age to find employment readily. At that stage she is left in a small town or village without any means beyond what she can get by way of assistance from the local authority. I think that the hardship of these cases ought to be recognised and that the interpretation of the code in those instances ought to be in favour of the applicant rather than in favour of the strict application of the regulations.

In regard to insured persons, I should like if the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary would clarify the position in connection with the single person who is insured and who has a rather small wage. Such persons may be working away from home—in rural areas it happens that they might be three, four or five miles from the nearest town—and in receipt of a wage of approximately £5. If these people have not blue cards, should they become ill and have to visit the local doctor, is there any way by which they can recoup the necessary fees they would pay to the local doctor for his services?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that on the next Vote?

Mr. Jones

I took it that the three were being discussed together.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know.

Mr. Dillon

It is not Health.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall be guided by the Parliamentary Secretary. If he says——

Mr. Kennedy

It has got nothing to do with these Estimates.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think not.

Mr. Jones

The fuel scheme is not applicable to rural areas. The old age pensioners in the rural areas, as distinct from the urban areas, have just as much difficulty in trying to provide fuel for the winter time, particularly an old age pensioner who is living alone. When such a person applies for assistance one of the things held against him is the fact that he has an old age pension.

With regard to the provision of boots the amount of the assistance seems to be a pre-determined sum. This scheme appears to be administered very justly and very wisely but it does not allow for the large number of applicants. The officer administering the scheme can only divide the money available between the number of people claiming assistance and he has to be more concerned with the amount of money at his disposal than with the number of people who apply for assistance.

When dealing with these Estimates for social assistance, we should lay more emphasis on the word "social." In the rural areas those who engage in agricultural pursuits have a deep sense of grievance against the administration of the system which deprives them of a pension when they come to the end of their time. They feel that having worked and contributed to the national income and having tried to make provision for their families, the fact that they have made such provision is held against them in such a way that they cannot qualify for a pension. That is part of the operation of the means test and it would be preferable if it were widely understood and publicised that there is a limit to the class of person who can obtain a pension. People feel that when they reach the age of 70 they are entitled to a pension but, when they apply for it, they find that there are many things which debar them from getting it. It would be much better if the regulations were more widely explained and publicised. If that were done many heartaches would be avoided.

Mr. Dillon

I want to make a few observations on this Estimate. The unemployment returns suggest that there are more than 50,000 people registering as unemployed. The Minister for Finance, speaking in this House on the 15th March, as reported at Column 558 said:

In 1957 emigration was very high, as high as 53,000. In 1958 the figure came down to 32,000 and all I have heard about 1959 is that it is higher than 1958 by a few thousands.

That means that in those three years over 100,000 people emigrated. If those people had not emigrated how many unemployed would we have now? Would it be a miscalculation to say that if those people had not emigrated we would have over 150,000 people unemployed now?

It is true that Queen Elizabeth or Cromwell, after their activities, could have pointed out that there was no unemployment in the province of Munster. We all know the report made by the poet Spenser, after he had travelled in Munster, when he said that there was nobody at all in Munster, and nobody at all over wide areas of the country. He might also have reported that there was no unemployment but those of us who know the facts would have found little cause for rejoicing in that information.

Cromwell used to say that he proposed to send the Irish to hell or to Connacht. He sent a great many into eternity. We would like to think that he sent them to Heaven. Elizabeth sent many of them to eternity but the present Government sends them to the United States of America or to Great Britain. The end result is that they are going. It is necessary when we consider the unemployment figures that we ought to consider them in the background of the fact recorded by the present Minister for Finance that in the last three years over 100,000 people emigrated.

When I see the Minister for Social Welfare shaking hands with the Parliamentary Secretary and thundering here about the glorious results of his Government's activities during the last three years, I often wonder if he and his supporters have entirely forgotten that tragic statistic that one of the economic results of their activities has been that 100,000 people between the ages of 18 and 25, with the addition of their parents, have left this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

The relevancy of this line of discussion does not seem very clear to me.

Mr. Dillon

It is one of the tragedies of our present situation that no one seems to see the relevancy of this matter. We produce unemployment statistics and the Minister can speak only of himself and the glorious activities of his Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary is responsible only for the administration of social assistance.

Mr. Dillon

And for unemployment and labour exchanges.

An Ceann Comhairle

The solution of the problem of unemployment is not part of his functions.

Mr. Dillon

The great tragedy is that it does not seem to be Parliament's function. It seems to be irrelevant to every Estimate. The great business is —shovel them out of the country and then nobody is responsible for them.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest to the Deputy that it is not relevant to this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I am suggesting to you, Sir, that if these people had not been shovelled out of the country, the Vote which we are at present considering would contain provision for them and the fact that we are not providing more for unemployment is not due to the fact that more employment has been provided for our people but to the fact that they have been shovelled out of the country. That is relevant surely?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. Government policy in so far as it affects the solution of the unemployment problem does not arise for discussion on this Vote. There may be other Votes on which it would relevantly arise but this is not one of them.

Mr. Dillon

This is Vote No.——?

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three Votes—Nos. 55, 56 and 57. It is the administration of the money voted last year for social assistance, including unemployment assistance and social insurance including unemployment benefits, that arises for discussion. Government policy in so far as it affects unemployment does not fall for discussion on this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I am not referring to their policy at all. I am referring to the fact that there are 100,000 people who, if they had not left this country, would be a charge upon this Vote. Surely I can comment on that fact.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is discussing something that does not fall within the control of the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Dillon

That is the whole burden of my complaint, that it does not.

An Ceann Comhairle

If it does not, surely the Parliamentary Secretary cannot be responsible for what does not fall within his control.

Mr. Dillon

Are we to take it that once you shovel them out of the country nobody in this country is responsible for them?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will not induce me to discuss unemployment or what happens to people.

Mr. Dillon

We may not discuss unemployment on this Vote?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, we may not discuss unemployment per se on this vote. We may discuss administration of unemployment benefits, social insurance and such things but may not discuss the unemployment problem per se.

General Mulcahy

On a point of order, the Minister is answerable for the work and the functions of the Social Welfare officers throughout the country. It is no part of their functions to report on the facts they are dealing with or to make suggestions affecting the administration of the Department in relation to their functions?

An Ceann Comhairle

The activities of these officers have been discussed and canvassed here for the three and a half hours this Vote has been under discussion.

Mr. Dillon

In any case, we can leave it at that. If we are not to discuss it, we are not to discuss it. They are gone and we shall not refer further to them.

I should like to go on record as expressing my appreciation of the unfailing courtesy of the Department over which the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister preside. I also have the experience that there is no Department with which one raises more queries, probably, than the Department of Social Welfare and in my experience no Department which takes greater trouble to assist Deputies in resolving the sometimes extremely complex and difficult problems. I do not share Deputy Kyne's view that there is reluctance on the part of officials to answer questions because, in my experience, it is very frequently the case that the full facts are not placed before the Department and that where they are brought to their attention, the officers in that Department are only too anxious to help anybody who is in a position to collect the facts to get them interpreted so that the claimant will receive what he is entitled to under the law.

I think it is true, and I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary will deny it, that as a matter of policy in recent times, the Parliamentary Secretary has been endeavouring to apply the rules and regulations somewhat more rigidly than they have been applied in the past. I do not know the rights and wrongs of that but I can see that in rural conditions in Ireland, it often creates great difficulty if a practice which has been in operation for a long time is suddenly radically altered. The Parliamentary Secretary might carefully consider, particularly in the congested areas in the west of Ireland, whether strict application of the letter of the law is always the wisest course.

It has often occurred to me—but this is purely a personal opinion— that it is worth considering whether the whole basis of unemployment assistance might not be reviewed in connection with the congested districts but on the whole I do not think I had better pursue that because I feel that if I did I would probably be opening a question which would involve legislation and that would be an unreasonable trespass upon your patience. It is a matter to which I shall return on another occasion.

There are three other details I want to refer to. It has been drawn to my attention that when members of the Army are approaching the end of the period of their engagement, the basis on which they retire is that they are quite young men in their forties. They naturally aspire to get jobs as soon as may be after they retire from the Army but cannot get registered with an employment exchange until they have retired from the Army. That is a mistake. If a man is energetic and anxious to get into a job as soon as he has left active service, he ought to be provided with every facility that we can give him and one of those facilities ought to be that he should be entitled to put down his name at the labour exchange with a statement that he will be available for employment after a certain date.

We have got into the unhappy habit of looking upon labour exchanges, not as places for bringing employees and employers together, but rather as places simply for registering unemployed people and paying them benefits under the Social Welfare Acts. We should emphasise more and more the functions of the labour exchange as an employment agency, a place where good men can register for suitable employment and where employers would be encouraged more and more to seek suitable applicants for any vacancies they may have.

I imagine that ex-members of the National Army with good records would be eagerly sought by most employers who had vacancies suitable for them and if it were widely known that men retiring from the Army at the end of their period of service habitually registered at the labour exchange, a regular demand would quickly grow up with the branch managers to notify such applicants of vacancies and employers would put in requisitions for any available personnel that fell within that category. I do not know why this regulation has been allowed to exist so long but the time is overdue when it should be altered and retiring Army personnel authorised to register before they are actually unemployed, provided they inform the branch manager of the date on which they will be free to take up employment, if it becomes available.

When we were passing the legislation in 1954 or 1955 which enabled a small farmer in rural Ireland under £10 valuation to make over his holding to his son for the purpose of getting an old age pension, did we also provide, where a man in those circumstances had a small sum of money on deposit in the bank to dower his daughter or for some family purpose of that kind, that he could anticipate that event and make over whatever little deposit he had in the bank to the daughter or to the member of the family for whom it was ultimately intended for the purpose of getting a pension?

I had a case recently where a man had received some money from relatives in America and had deposited it in the bank with the intention of providing a dowry for his two daughters. I recommended to him that he should transfer the money to the two girls which, of course, involved some element of risk, but I am not at all clear that, having done so, he was eligible for the old age pension. If he conveyed the small farm under £10 valuation to his son, and if the money did not enter into the question, he would have become thereby entitled to the old age pension. It is well worth considering allowing a man in those circumstances to divest himself of a bank deposit so that he may become eligible for the old age pension and put his children in a position to marry or settle their own lives sooner than their original intention to do so.

There is one other matter I wish to raise because it is one of those obscure occurrences that nobody hears about and yet they are a very great abuse. There is some strange power in the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the Department of Social Welfare to give a direction to a local labour exchange manager to include a particular name in any list of candidates forwarded by the branch manager in regard to employment in a State Department.

There is a long history behind this. Fianna Fáil, when they developed a conscience about 25 years ago, largely because their jobbery at that stage of their career had become peculiarly nauseating in the nostrils of the people, announced that they had imposed upon themselves a self-denying ordinance that hereafter no minor post would be filled in Government Departments except through the labour exchange. I do not remember who made that announcement but I think it was a Department of Finance regulation that gave effect to the decision and it sounded very well. It then transpired that they had set up a patronage secretary in their own Party. In every Department of State there are a number of small jobs as cleaners, charwomen, porters and messengers and these posts often relate to provincial centres as well as to Government offices in the City of Dublin.

The old rule in this connection was that these appointments were made by the Minister responsible for the Department. Under this new rule they were all to be made hereafter through the labour exchange. However, the patronage secretary was appointed and the practice grew up—before I was ever a member of any Government I found it an extremely difficult practice to understand—that when there was a vacancy in any Department of State the Minister's Private Secretary notified the Fianna Fáil patronage secretary, who was a member of this House, and he consulted the local Deputy as to who should get the job.

All these jobs were to be filled through the labour exchange and a person might ask himself how this abracadabra worked. The patronage secretary, having consulted the local Fianna Fáil Deputy and ascertained that so-and-so was in the Cumann, and therefore eligible for employment, notified the name to the Private Secretary to the Minister. Then a very strange machinery went into operation. The Department of Social Welfare was rung up and they were requested to inform the local branch manager that whatever other name he sent up he was to include in the list the nominee of the Fianna Fáil patronage secretary.

Mr. Kennedy

You did that kind of thing yourselves.

Mr. Dillon

No.

Mr. Kennedy

Indeed you did, from 1922.

Mr. Dillon

I take it then that the Parliamentary Secretary admits this soft impeachment?

Mr. Kennedy

I shall deal with it when I am replying.

Mr. Dillon

I remember very well the name was then put on the list of persons sent up. The form was gone through that the local branch manager sent up a list of three or four names but in the midst of the three or four names was the particular name which he had been required to include in the list. The first time this came to my notice was about 1944. I suppose I was innocent and I had not observed the procedure until then.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not deal with appointments made since 1944. He may deal only with administration.

Mr. Dillon

I know. I am giving a case the details of which I knew then to illustrate what is going on at present. I do not quite know what is going on at present but there is this secret and devious operation. I do not know who the present patronage secretary of the Fianna Fáil Party is. Perhaps the Minister could tell us.

Mr. MacEntee

Perhaps Deputy Dillon would stop talking nonsense.

Mr. Dillon

This is not nonsense. Does the Minister not remember the occasion when there were two vacancies in the Phoenix Park and the two appointments were filled by people from Cavan?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant to the discussion.

Mr. Kennedy

Does the Deputy remember the appointments made at Shannon Airport? One had to have a Fine Gael membership card to get in there.

Mr. Dillon

I am dealing with appointments——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not discuss all the appointments made since 1944.

Mr. Dillon

It is an extraordinary procedure. I discovered that this procedure was in operation in all Departments of State. I thought it was quite improper and I think it is improper for this reason: it is wholly wrong to send for, say, three men and leave them under the impression that they are being sent by the labour exchange for a fair, impartial interview when in fact everybody knows, except the unfortunate men who are being sent up, that of the three persons, two have not the faintest hope of ever getting the appointment. There never was any intention of considering them. They were simply sent up as cover for the other one.

I think one has to be realistic in these matters. If the labour exchange sent up three or four men who were all treated ex aequo and one was a man to whom the Minister wanted to give a job, I would not mind if the Minister said: “Put those men on a list and give the first available vacancy to my man but see that the other men are kept on the list and, as suitable vacancies arise, let them be appointed.” Somebody must get the job that is going and, provided the others are fairly dealt with, I have no serious reason to complain if the Minister puts them in whatever order he pleases, but I think it is unjust, unfair and an evil practice to ask a labour exchange to send up three unemployed men with a fourth man who will get the job anyway, leaving the families of those three genuinely unemployed men who are seeking work saying the Rosary at home that they will get the job. Their wives will polish their boots, brush their clothes and get them ready to go to the Department; yet everybody in the place knows the whole thing is a cod, that there is not the slightest intention of considering them. That is a brutal and shameful practice and it ought to stop.

When these three or four men, sent by the labour exchange, come to be interviewed, it may transpire that only two of them are suitable for the kind of post for which they apply. That cannot be helped, but, if that is so, then those two ought to be put upon a list and given vacancies as they arise. If all four prove to be suitable, then all four, if they are sent up by the labour exchange and are found to be suitable by the Department, should be put on a list and provided with employment as opportunity offers, but it is wholly wrong, wholly unjust, and wholly evil that we should go through a fake procedure, having three or four decent people put to all the trouble, annoyance and anxiety of coming from the labour exchange to be interviewed for a job when there is not the slightest intention at all of considering them on their merits.

I would favour rather than that a straight system of patronage because then at least you would not raise false hopes in the hearts of decent people to whom the prospect of employment means everything. If we are to have, and I think we should have, a system divorced from patronage, even in minor matters of this kind, then it should be an honest system in which all those nominated by the labour exchange will be treated ex aequo.

There is another problem of this kind present to my mind. Where a person aspires to permanent employment as a postman, I think the labour exchange is consulted. I have had cases—I cannot remember precisely the details—where a situation arose in which a man who seemed to have a very good claim to a vacancy in the service of the Post Office was debarred from applying for it because he was already engaged as a temporary postman and was, therefore, not eligible to register as unemployed, and because he could not register as an unemployed person, he could not be considered for the kind of vacancy he was looking for.

Mr. MacEntee

This applies to the administration of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

An Ceann Comhairle

It would arise relevantly on the Post Office Vote.

Mr. Dillon

I think a very simple adjustment in the regulations could be made——

Mr. MacEntee

We have no control of the regulations.

Mr. Dillon

——an adjustment whereby people temporarily employed in the postal services should be allowed to go forward for such a job.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not disputing that but it is the Post Office who make the appointment.

Mr. Dillon

But it is the labour exchange who will not register these men.

Mr. MacEntee

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Post Office regulations control it.

Mr. Dillon

The labour exchange says it will not nominate anybody unless he is unemployed. I am trying to put this case: the labour exchange has a dual function. One is to cater for the unemployed by providing them with benefits and the other is to look for jobs for them. If a fellow is in a temporary job, apprehends its early ending and aspires to a permanent job, and if the labour exchange hangs up a notice in its window that there is a vacancy for a permanent postman, this fellow walks up to the exchange and says: "I would like to have my name submitted for that job," but he is told that he cannot have it submitted because they cannot submit the name of anybody who is not registered with them as unemployed.

I suggest to the Minister that is an improper visitation upon the functions of the labour exchange, and I draw a parallel between the man in temporary employment who aspires to permanent employment and the man in the Army who is about to be released and is looking for a job. I think that is a category of persons that ought to be allowed to register for employment, that is, for employment different from what they at present have, or for any employment if they are about to retire from their present positions.

Supposing a man is notified that his job as a temporary postman is coming to an end in six weeks' time and there is a permanent job available, it is extremely exasperating if he is told that he cannot apply because the rules of the labour exchange forbid the submission of the names of men who are not unemployed persons. This is not a matter to get excited about. I am merely suggesting that we should emphasise more and more the function of the labour exchange to get permanent employment for people who want it.

Personally I cannot see why any man who is employed or unemployed should not have the right to go into a labour exchange and say: "I am at present working as a temporary postman but I want a job as a painter, a carpenter, or a slater. These are the trades to which I was reared but I found it impossible to get employment in them and I am now employed as a temporary postman. Please put my name down and if a vacancy occurs in any of these categories put my name forward." I think if a man did that to-morrow in rural Ireland, he would not be accepted.

General MacEoin

That is not the legislation.

Mr. MacEntee

Nor is it the fact.

Mr. Dillon

If it is not a fact, the Minister can take me up on it.

Mr. MacEntee

I shall, when the Deputy sits down. As it is, he has repeated himself 20 times over.

Mr. Dillon

That is a very impertinent observation——

Mr. Coogan

What else would you expect?

Mr. Dillon

——and one of which I suggest the Chair should take notice. The Minister frequently makes reflections upon the capacity of the Chair to maintain order in this House. They should not pass unobserved. It is unbecoming that the Minister should invite recrimination across the floor of the House in regard to these matters. I know that so far as Post Office employment is concerned, the facts are as I have stated them because I have had more than one case in my personal experience. Naturally that should not happen but it does. In regard to the patronage operations of the Fianna Fáil Party I know that the facts are as I have stated. They are, in my opinion, a reeking scandal which ought to be ended.

I should like to ask, in conclusion, can those who have emigrated—any of the 100,000 to whom I have referred— register here for employment in our labour exchanges, while working in Birmingham, London, or Liverpool, or must they be resident here? I think a great many of these boys and girls would like to come home if they could get employment here, but I do not know of any effective machinery whereby they can make their desire known to the labour exchange here and receive notification of available vacancies. If such accommodation exists, then I think it should be more widely advertised because, of these 100,000 who have gone in the past three years, I am sure many would come back if there was any prospect of permanent employment for them here. If notification of that employment has not been a function of the labour exchanges here, I suggest that the figures show that the time is long past when the employment exchanges here should concern themselves to provide employment for those who left this country in the past three years because they could not earn their bread at home.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Kennedy)

There is nothing to prevent an Irish citizen in Birmingham, or anywhere else, registering by post in any labour exchange here. Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde raised a point about the recriprocal arrangement with Britain in relation to sickness benefit. If any Deputy wants full information about the recriprocal arrangements, I suggest he should write to the Department. The arrangements are very involved. With regard to the particular point raised, the following information may answer the Deputy's query:—

Disability benefit. The six months' residence period in the new country during which under the old agreement a claimant was covered by the scheme of the old country is not included in the new agreement. The new country assumes liability for the payment of sickness disability benefit as from the date of the insured person's arrival there.

I think that meets the point the Deputy raised. If there are any other points, such as that raised by Deputy Dillon in relation to registration here, I suggest that Deputies should communicate with the Department, where they will get any detailed information they want.

It amuses me to hear Deputy Dillon talk about jobs and jobbery. In the Department of Social Welfare there are 60 cleaners, messengers, paper keepers, and so on. Some have been there for the past 38 years. The number of civil servants in the Department is in the region of 1,900. It will be seen from those figures that there is very little scope for patronage. The majority of the messengers and cleaners are ex-Army men or ex-I.R.A. men. In the appointment of a cleaner, I have never asked whether he was on the Free State side or the Republican side in the Civil War. It is enough for me to know that he has pre-Truce service. If there were a scrutiny of the exsoldiers serving in the Department, the majority would be found to have been on the Free State side.

So long as I am there ex-Army and ex-I.R.A. men will get the preference all the time. They have to register in the labour exchange, and I have no apologies for any appointment I have recommended. It comes well from a Party to talk about patronage when it was that same Party which packed the whole Civil Service from 1922 to 1932 with their friends and relations. Those friends and relations are there today in permanent employment, and devil an examination ever they did. Even if we wanted to follow the example set we could not have done so because there was no room left.

Mr. Sherwin

You let our crowd down afterwards.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Kennedy

Níor chualas an rud a dúirt an Teachta.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Parliamentary Secretary uses Irish now to confuse somebody who does not know the language.

Mr. Kennedy

The Deputy is a fine friend of the language, with his Battle of Britain and his Warsaw speech!

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Parliamentary Secretary would not be fit to wipe their boots.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lynch should restrain himself and allow the proceedings of the House to continue.

Mr. Kennedy

Some Deputies mentioned the question of agencies administered direct from headquarters. It was stated that insured persons had paid for the services of local agents and were, therefore, entitled to such services. It was also stated that it could not be seen how failure to replace a local agent contributed to the efficiency of the service provided. It is the aim of the Department to provide, and the right of the insured person to receive, the most efficient and expeditious service possible. Where there is a local agent, the claim for disability, maternity, or marriage benefit must be made to him in the first instance. He then sends it to headquarters. Cheques in payment of benefit are sent to him from headquarters and he must forward them to the claimants. All queries in relation to claims are channelled through him.

Where there is no local agent, these transactions are conducted directly with the insured persons. It is assumed that less time is taken up by direct contact. Claimants would generally receive their benefit, therefore, earlier than if there was a local agent acting for them in the area. It may be said that a local agent helps insured persons to make their claims. On that aspect, I should point out that the questions on the forms are of a straightforward and routine nature and are well within the capacity and understanding of the vast majority of insured persons. When they have completed them on one occasion, they will experience no difficulty in making subsequent claims. In the case of disability benefit the claim form has to be completed only at the commencement of the claim. Thereafter, it is only a matter of obtaining a medical certificate from the insured person's medical certifier and sending it to headquarters.

To my mind, the fact that the insured person receives this benefit more expeditiously than through a system of local agents makes this experiment worthwhile. The experience to date has shown that the arrangements have worked smoothly and to the advantage of the insured person. Few complaints have been received and the position is kept constantly under review. Three areas in which there is no local agent were mentioned by Deputies: Galway, Youghal and Carrick-on-Suir. In each of these areas there is a social welfare officer and an employment exchange or a branch employment office.

To me, a fact is more important than a form. In the administration of a large Department which, as the Minister stated last night, handles from 26 to 27 per cent. of the total revenue of the State, you can get tied up in red tape and it is the subscribers, the insured persons, who suffer. We want to look after them and give them the best service possible. Speaking from my own knowledge as one living in the country, I can say that many agents are merely glorified postmen. Even if it costs more, I would recommend to the Minister that there should be direct administration from the office instead of the present position. It is not general but I have seen sick people waiting until the agent got up or returned from some other task to receive attention.

We have sickness visitors and I am strongly recommending to the Minister and the Government that they be employed to a greater extent as a substitute for the work of the agents. I believe that would result in the sick people getting better service. If I may express a personal point of view, this is the way I look upon the administration of Government services. If by some unfortunate circumstance the Dáil were to cease to function and all the civil servants were to die overnight, the people in my area would still live, as would the people in Deputy Lynch's area and Deputy Dillon's area. But if they, the people of the country, were to disappear, then there would be no Dáil and no civil servants.

Mr. Sherwin

They are disappearing.

Mr. Kennedy

We shall not go up that lane with the Deputy.

Mr. Sherwin

I should like to develop that.

Mr. Kennedy

That does not take from the validity of what I am saying. I am concerned with the people in my constituency. We have had all this sob stuff about agents. No agent has to resign. We are trying out an experiment in administering these sickness benefits through the office and by direct contact with the Social Welfare officer. The experiment is working well and I believe it will help the people. That brings me to the question of the Social Welfare officers, all 240 of them. That is no pleasant job for any man. If any Deputy were to put himself in their position and carry out their task conscientiously, he would not like it at all. So long as there is a means test, they have to do their duty.

Deputy Dillon mentioned the question of the assignment and transfer of a farm. We provided back in 1952 for the assignment and transfer of a farm under £30 valuation to a son or daughter and we did not even stipulate marriage in that assignment. In the case of a valuation over £30 we provided for the transfer but in this case marriage was stipulated. Therefore, when the son got married the father and mother were both entitled to the old age pension.

Deputy Dillon raised another point about money. That must be taken into account in the computation of means. But without transgressing the law, if there was any wisdom in that family that money would be gone long ago, transferred in dowries or invested for the daughter or the son.

Mr. Dillon

Can that be done for the purpose of getting a pension?

Mr. Kennedy

No.

Mr. Dillon

But he can transfer the farm for the purpose of getting the pension?

Mr. Kennedy

Yes. They say in Irish, as Deputy Sherwin knows, "Ní h-é lá na gaoithe lá na scolb."

Mr. Sherwin

I do not know it. I had too much work and worry.

Mr. Dillon

This is not a "scolb". This is a deposit in the bank. There is a distinction.

Mr. Kennedy

The problem about the bank should be examined before hand. I think I have said enough on that subject.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Parliamentary Secretary dismiss as unthinkable the suggestion that there might be an analogous procedure for a bank deposit to that allowed in respect of a small farm?

Mr. Kennedy

I imagine that would mean legislation.

Mr. Dillon

Would it? I think this is a regulation.

Mr. Kennedy

The Deputy raised another point. I was not very lucid in an answer I gave to Deputy Ryan and in reply to Supplementaries put by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Sweetman in regard to soldiers on pre-discharge leave. We are examining this whole problem. Before I read this statement, may I say that it is a very big problem? The State naturally gives a preference to soldiers on pre-discharge leave in the recommendations for subordinate employment in Government Departments. However, we must consider the wider question of the reminder of the employers in the country. Can you do the same thing when sending out a list to other employers? However, I informed the Dáil, through the Chair, that the matter is being examined.

With reference to the answer I gave, which was incorrect, I wish to reply to Supplementary Questions by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Sweetman arising from a Question asked by Deputy Ryan on the 4th May last. In my reply to Deputy Ryan's Question, I stated that soldiers on pre-discharge leave were still in receipt of Army pay and, in common with other employed persons who register at an employment exchange, were submitted to a prospective employer only if a sufficient number of persons actually in receipt of unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit, in that order, were not available to afford the prospective employer a reasonable selection.

I then stated that persons, including soldiers on pre-discharge leave, who have not less than five years' service in the permanent Defence Forces were given preference in submissions for employment in subordinate posts in the service of the State. When Deputy Sweetman asked if they were given that preference during the period of pre-discharge leave, my mind was still on the first part of the Question and I said "No."

In fact the position is as stated in the second part of the answer. The second part was "Persons, including those on pre-discharge leave, who have given not less than five years' service in the permanent Defence Forces are, however, given preference in submissions for employment in subordinate posts in the service of the State." Over and above that, you have employment by the local authorities and by other employers. As I said, I can go no further now beyond indicating that the matter is being examined.

Deputy Corish was all hot and bothered about the Department dealing with people who violate the rules, put on stamps illegally and make claims as a result. He dealt with the 13 stamps. It is a well-known fact that if you invest two guineas for stamps, illegally, and put them on, you become entitled to about £80 worth of benefit. That is a practice which unfortunately exists and which we want to wipe out. Deputy Corish referred to farmers getting grants illegally. I have seen farmers being brought to book again and again when they got grants illegally. They have been taken up by the Department from which they got the grants and equally we are entitled to deal with offenders under this code.

We are dealing with 700,000 insured people and it is only natural to expect that there will be offences under the social welfare code by a percentage of that number. I am not saying the number of offences is very high but it is enough, and if we do not deal with them, then we are opening the door and condoning them. It is not a trivial offence, as Deputy Corish said, to buy stamps, to put them on and to claim benefit as a result. When Deputy Corish was Minister, he enforced the law; we are doing the same thing and we have no regrets.

Mr. Corish

I did not object to the enforcement of the law. The gist of my complaint was about the poster that was displayed.

Mr. Kennedy

As far as I am aware, these posters indicate to any person who proposes to indulge in the same practice that we shall not allow it and that we shall not tolerate it. The fact remains that in rural areas—and this applies to every county—when there is a Mission in the parish, we get hundreds of pounds conscience money back into the Department. That is a fact. It even happens in Galway and Kerry.

Mr. Coogan

There were a lot of things happening in Galway and the Parliamentary Secretary had his finger in the pie.

Mr. Corish

The Parliamentary Secretary knows the poster I am referring to?

Mr. Kennedy

I do know the poster. As a matter of fact on the last occasion when I came back as Parliamentary Secretary to the Department, I asked the question: "Are the insured made aware of the seriousness of offences of this kind?" I was told that posters were in existence in the offices of the Department indicating where offences had been committed and how the district justices had dealt with them I see nothing wrong with that.

Mr. Coogan

Is there any conscience money coming from the Parliamentary Secretary's county at all?

Mr. Kennedy

Plenty. I should be very proud of my county if the people there were as conscientious as those in other counties.

Mr. Coogan

Therefore, the Parliamentary Secretary is not proud.

Mr. Kennedy

I am proud. I think it is the best county in Ireland. It is better than Dublin or any other county.

Mr. Sherwin

They must be getting all the good jobs from the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Kennedy

Deputy Jones referred to the three day's waiting period. The Minister contemplates bringing in legislation very soon to deal with that period, that is, the three days between going from unemployment benefit to unemployment assistance.

In regard to free boots, we give a grant to local authorities and it is up to the local authorities to supplement that grant to provide free boots. I am in touch with the managers in the various counties and it would be very desirable—we cannot force their hand —to have a uniform system in giving out these free boots. To my mind, they are given out too liberally in certain counties. The free boot scheme was a war-time measure when leather was scarce and when there was real hardship. Now people who are in receipt of substantial wages are getting these free boots in certain areas, while in an adjoining county, there is a far stricter code. It gives rise to uneasiness and to dissatisfaction and I am in touch with the managers to try to get uniformity. By and large, it was very often abused in certain areas, not all areas.

The same applies to the free fuel system, to which Deputy Corish referred. We received full and complete evidence that fuel vouchers were being sold for cash in Dublin city and we tightened up——

Mr. Sherwin

Perhaps they wanted food.

Mr. Kennedy

I can tell the Deputy this much. If he goes around some of the schools where the free meals which he advocates so much are given out, he will find the finest of bread thrown around the yard and being kicked around.

Mr. Sherwin

Does the Parliamentary Secretary find the milk being kicked around?

Mr. Kennedy

It is the best of bread, passed by the health authorities, and the best of meat is also kicked around.

Mr. Sherwin

Does the Parliamentary Secretary find any milk thrown away?

Mr. Kennedy

I am giving the Deputy evidence of what I saw myself and what representatives of my Department saw. He referred to my county, and I can tell him that there are children of labouring men there who live three or four miles away from school and they do not get a crust of bread from the time they go to school until they get home.

Mr. Galvin

Would the Parliamentary Secretary say if the quality of the boots is better than it was?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Coogan

The Deputy should make his maiden speech.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary is entitled to speak without interruption.

Mr. Kennedy

I have always admired the small farmer. He was always independent and was not a beggar with his hands out for all kinds of sops and doles. That is the tradition of the Irish nation for 700 years and to suggest we should turn them into a nation of beggars——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order!

Mr. Kennedy

——and take their fundamental independence away from them is bad advocacy in the national Parliament. These benefits are for those who need them and they should not be abused by people who are in jobs——

Mr. Sherwin

Give them jobs.

Mr. Kennedy

With regard to the interruption by one of the Deputies on my own side of the House about the quality of the boots, very few boots are as good as the boots we get made. They are first-class boots. There has been a practice which I have stood against, and which I shall always stand against, of traders taking in vouchers for these boots and giving out inferior boots which were far worse than the boots the Department passed, and then trying to kick up a row with the local authority because the cheap shoddy boot will not be passed by the home assistance officer, and the home assistance officer will not certify them as being in accordance with the quality as stipulated by the Department. The home assistance officer is right. This scheme exists for those who deserve it and we shall see that the quality of the boots is good.

Mr. Coogan

And of Irish manufacture.

Mr. Kennedy

Of Irish manufacture, of course.

Mr. Coogan

There was a reflection on them in an interruption.

Mr. Galvin

There was no reflection on them at all. I asked for a better quality boot. The Deputy only knows about horse shoes.

Mr. Coogan

It takes a good man like Deputy MacEoin to make them. He did more than galvanise this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Coogan persists in interrupting, I shall have to ask him to leave the House.

Mr. Coogan

I had to put him in order. I could not listen to him.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy cannot listen, he has a remedy.

Mr. Coogan

The Deputy should make his maiden speech.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please cease interrupting?

Mr. Kennedy

Deputy Dillon raised the matter of a person in temporary employment who is looking for a permanent job. Any person over school-leaving age, whether employed or unemployed, may register for employment at the employment exchange, either by personal attendance or by application through the post. Details are recorded of age, industrial and other qualifications and experience, as well as the type of work desired. Local officers canvass employers to secure notification of the vacancies to the local exchange. That possibility is there and the fact is that, even though they are in temporary work, they can still register for the type of employment they are looking for. The main function of the exchange with regard to Government employment schemes, of course, when work is available, is to put up for work, first, those who are in receipt of the maximum rates of unemployment assistance and have the greatest number of dependants and after the recipients of unemployment assistance those who are in receipt of unemployment benefit and have the greatest number of dependants.

Mr. Dillon

Then, in effect, the man who registers will never be submitted for a job.

Mr. Kennedy

I do not know about that. For instance, a drainage scheme may have been started in an area recently, employing technicians and manual labourers. If it is not his main occupation, I do not see anything to prevent a man from registering and being employed later on.

Mr. Coogan

The key man.

Mr. Kennedy

I shall read this also: "For vacancies notified to local officers by private employers, the persons registered for employment who are best suited industrially are submitted, registered of whether they are receiving unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit."

With regard to the question of the means test in relation to unemployment assistance, the only way out is to raise the ceiling. Beyond £72 16s. 0d. per annum, or £1 8s. 0d. per week in a rural area a man is out of unemployment assistance. I have seen the interpretation of the means test by the Social Welfare officers and it is very liberal. During the Recess, I mean to make a study of this matter. Values have gone up so much over the past 20 years that it is very easy to arrive at an income of £1 8s. 0d. on a farm. I have the greatest respect for a farmer, whether he has two acres or 200 acres. He is the backbone of the country. He is the citizen we must all help out in every way. Whether or not the dole is the correct way, I do not know.

The primary object in registering for unemployment assistance is to be lined up for work with the local authority. That is where the means test comes in. A man is not so much concerned—although it is a concern of his—with whether he is in receipt of 8/- a week or 5/- a week. He will not dispute that, but if he is knocked off altogether, it means he is knocked off the list the local authority will consider when there is special work in the area. There is then the problem that is in all our minds, but which is not really relevant, that if you improve his holding and his production by co-operative nationally-directed effort, his income goes up again. I am straying into two avenues now which do not relate to the Vote before the House, and to which the Ceann Comhairle would not allow me to refer.

First of all, I think I could lay down the principle that what concerns a man in receipt of unemployment assistance around the seaboard, in the west, the north-west and the south, is where he stands on the list to be employed by the local authority or the State. When he, by his efforts and his good production, goes off the unemployment assistance list, the supplement that came to him from the local authority or the State is gone. As I say, I shall look into this problem and I shall make recommendations to my Minister if I can, but I shall endeavour to make them because the problem is constantly there. However, I shall refer to it again later on.

I do not think there is any hardship in the application of the means test for old age pensions. Of all recipients of these pensions, 94 per cent. are in receipt of the full pension. In some counties, as many as 90 per cent. of those over 70 receive old age pensions. There is no severe hardship. As a matter of fact, we came across a case the other day where a lady had an old age pension and in her will she left £3,000 to one person and the farm to somebody else and we were the worst in the world when we sought to recover some of the money she had got illegally.

That is not the only case of that kind we meet in the Department, as Deputy Corish knows. Saying that officials use Draconian tactics and all sorts of pressure to find out means of applicants is wrong. If one places oneself in the position of any Social Welfare officer investigating means, one finds it is a most difficult task and, by and large, I think the officers do a good job of work for the State in everything they handle.

Deputy Moloney referred to the social insurance fund and spoke of tapping it for certain purposes. I am not a financial authority but when you build up a financial structure such as we have here, it is very dangerous to interefere with it. You can kill the goose that lays the golden eggs if you start interfering with these things.

The appeals officers are in close attendance and very frequently visit the various offices throughout the country. We have added one officer to speed up the hearing of appeals. Deputy Kyne was very helpful in his suggestions about the assistance the insured person can give in making his claim by quoting his number and having the insurance card available. The insurance card has become a most valuable possession. I heard Deputy Larkin at one time say of farmers that when the winds of adversity blow, they can retreat to their land, but now you have the position that when adversity comes, the employed man can seek the shelter of his insurance card and he should know its importance. He should bring his insurance card to his employer when seeking work.

How often have we come across cases of farm labourers working for long periods for farmers without insurance and when the time came when the workers wanted benefit, it was practically impossible for them to become insured because of the bad financial position of the employers. It should, therefore, be clear to the insured person that his greatest safeguard is his insurance card. He should know his number and his rights and now, in a great many cases, he does. That situation is improving. I want to thank Deputy Kyne for his contribution in that respect.

In regard to the dental benefit which the Minister introduced and which is of great value, I think this benefit has become very well known. Along with the treatment of children in primary schools it will tend to make us a very healthy race. I do not know anything about what happens in the vocational schools, whether there is any school service or not, and it is not for me to introduce that into this debate. Children in primary schools get good treatment. There is the added incentive to seeking good health in that when 26 stamps are affixed, after a half year's employment, insured persons can now get dental and optical benefits from the age of 16 to 19. These are some of the best benefits of social welfare the Minister has conferred on the community and I think they are fairly well known throughout the country.

Deputy Corish referred to youths employed as messengers and spoke about the practice of ringing up the employers when they leave work to find out why they left. I do not accept the bona fides of Deputy Corish to state that. Very often—not in all, or in the majority of cases—there is a desire to get sufficient stamps to go on the register of unemployed for work which does not materialise and I think in these cases the longest way round is the shortest way home and that we should encourage the youth to remain in employment. If necessary, the method that Deputy Dillon referred to could be adopted—to register while employed with the idea of seeking better work, but at the same time to continue in employment while no better work is available. That system, I think, would be much better than breaking off work on flimsy pretexts such as saying that the pay is small.

Mr. Corish

I spoke about vindictive employers who stated that the employees left.

Mr. Kennedy

In a well-organised county like Wexford, there would be no vindictive employers. The idea of commencing benefit on a particular day of the week does not commend itself because people ordinarily do not get sick on Monday or Friday; they may be struck down with sickness at any time and nobody but the Lord can account for that——

Mr. Corish

May I interrupt? Nobody becomes unemployed on a particular day either but I honestly believe it would cut out a lot of confusion if there were certification for a particular day. There is a particular day on which men are paid unemployment assistance or benefit. I think the Parliamentary Secretary should consider the idea without committing himself now.

Mr. Kennedy

I shall certainly consider it but my immediate reaction to it is not very favourable because I see the administrative difficulty.

Mr. Corish

I shall be satisfied if the Parliamentary Secretary is convinced that it cannot be operated.

Mr. Kennedy

In regard to employment on the cross-Channel service and the use of Irish stamps as against British stamps, perhaps if Deputy Corish will send us particulars of these cases, we can examine them. What he said, however, is a feather in the cap for Irish insurance because we lead the British, at least in the case of certain benefits.

We are dealing with a rough figure of 700,000 insured—not all of them in full insurance. The weekly recipients of unemployment assistance averaged, over the year, 23,000; unemployment benefit, 31,000 and disability benefit, 42,000. It is a very big Department, dealing with a very big sum of money.

Our desire is to give the greatest benefit possible to deserving people at the least cost to the State. We must ensure that the moneys they and their employers pay in are not misused, that they are administered properly, that the person who indulges in malpractices will not be encouraged but will, instead, be punished. We shall see to it that the decent labouring man and the decent employer who stand for good, honest social welfare will get the reward as a result of their contributions. That is our attitude in the Department. We are not out to make people work unduly hard but we want a return for the money.

I think we are tending that way in relation to the point raised by Deputy Coogan about decentralisation of the Department. The shape of insurance is changing. The Bill the Minister for Social Welfare is bringing before the Dáil indicates a radical change in insurance. It takes a lot of people out of the assistance group to which Deputy Sherwin referred.

Mr. Sherwin

Twenty per cent. They got one shilling. The Parliamentary Secretary does not defend the 1/-.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Kennedy

We gave them 4/6. One shilling per week represents £2 12s. 0d. a year. Every mickle makes a muckle. Deputy Sherwin can divide his allowance by 52 and say he has only so much a week. He can divide it by 365 and say he has only so much a day.

Only by careful planning ahead, by economy, and by looking at things as they are, can we do these things. We cannot distribute largesse and be hail-fellow-well-met with every person. The Deputy does not think of the whirlwind.

Mr. Sherwin

I must remind the Parliamentary Secretary of these matters before he sits down.

Mr. Kennedy

Beidh lá eile againn. Sin a bhfuil le rá agam.

Mr. Corish

Perhaps the Parlimentary Secretary dealt with the matter before I came in. What is the position of Irish residents who work with a firm such as British Railways? They affix British insurance stamps on their cards which are of no use to them here except for 26 days' unemployment benefit. I have in mind residents in Wexford who ply between Rosslare and Fishguard. The British insurance stamps are not of much use to them. Can the Parliamentary Secretary do anything about the matter?

Mr. Kennedy

I said we are examining that question. I asked the Deputy to give us any information he could.

Mr. Corish

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say what has happened to the Government's Compensation Commission?

Mr. MacEntee

It has not reported yet.

Mr. Corish

It is still there?

Mr. Kennedy

Of course it is.

Vote put and agreed to.