Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 1960

Vol. 183 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Telephone Capital Bill, 1960—Second Stage.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

This Bill is the ninth of its kind since the transfer of services in 1922. Its purpose is, briefly, to authorise the Minister for Finance to advance further moneys up to a limit of £10 million for continued development of the telephone service. The money will be borrowed as required over a number of years.

As Deputies are no doubt aware, expenditure on the telephone service falls under two broad heads. The ordinary running expenses on day-to-day operation and maintenance of the system are met out of moneys voted annually by the Oireachtas under the Post Office Vote. On the other hand, expenditure on extension and development of the system—for example, on the erection of new exchanges, the provision of additional trunk lines and the installation of subscribers' telephones—is met out of funds provided by the Minister for Finance under the Telephone Capital Acts.

These Acts empower the Minister for Finance to issue out of the Central Fund sums not exceeding a stated amount for the development of the telephone service. The issues are subject to estimates of expenditure being submitted to and approved by the Minister for Finance. The Acts also authorise the Minister for Finance to borrow in order to meet or repay the issues from the Central Fund and for that purpose to create terminable annuities extending over a period not exceeding 25 years. The annuities are paid annually in six-monthly instalments out of moneys provided in SubHead M. of the Post Office Vote.

The total amount authorised to be raised under the previous Irish Telephone Capital Acts to finance works carried out since 1st April, 1922, is £22.75 million, of which £21.93 million approximately had been expended up to March 31st last. Of the latter amount some £15.9 million still remained to be repaid on that date.

The last Telephone Capital Act, that of 1956, was for £6 million. At that time expenditure on national development schemes had to be severely restricted because of shortage of capital. The Post Office, in common with other Departments, had to accept the situation that it could not obtain all the money required for its purposes including development of the telephone service, and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs explained when presenting the 1956 Bill to the Oireachtas that the capital funds available would not be sufficient to meet all anticipated demands of the telephone service.

He went on to say that it would not therefore be possible to install all the subscribers' lines that could otherwise be provided, to undertake all the underground development schemes needed to meet and to anticipate demands for telephones in built up areas, or to do all the various other works such as new automatic exchange schemes and major trunk works that the Department would otherwise endeavour to undertake if there were no capital shortage; further, that new schemes involving substantial expenditure which could be postponed without materially affecting the standard of service to subscribers would be deferred. Notwithstanding that development on this restricted basis had to be continued over the greater part of the last 4 years, it has been possible to meet in very large part the steadily increasing demands for new telephones and to maintain a good standard of service for subscribers generally. In short, it can be fairly claimed that the moneys made available by the Oireachtas for telephone capital purposes have been used to the best advantage.

Of the funds previously authorised £0.42 million remained on 31st March, 1956, making a total of £6.42 million. Over the 4 years to 31st March, 1960, the money was spent under broad headings approximately as follows:

	£
Subscribers Installations tions and local underground development schemes	3.35 million
Exchanges—new and extended — including buildings	1.25 ,,
Trunk and Junction circuits	1.00 ,,
	5.6 million.

The total expenditure on development works, including the value of stores used which were already in stock, was £6.7 million approximately.

Since 1st January, 1956, over 47,700 exchange lines and some 60,000 telephones have been provided and the number of telephones is now over 150,000; 46 new automatic exchanges have been provided including those at Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Mullingar and Naas; 582 exchanges have been extended; 261 telephone kiosks have been erected; and the trunk network has been increased by over 37,000 circuit miles. The total number of telephone calls handled increased from 105.7 million in 1956 to 132 million last year. Continuous service has been introduced at 101 exchanges where the service was formerly restricted and the hours of service at 151 other small exchanges have been extended.

Apart from the provision of new automatic exchanges at various centres, significant advances have been made in the field of automatic working of telephone calls. Direct dialling was formerly limited to local calls but the facility has been extended far beyond the local range. Dublin subscribers can now dial directly to all automatic exchanges within a radius of 20 miles and similar facilities exist in the reverse direction. Subscribers at Cork and Athlone can dial directly to Dublin and to other larger automatic exchanges. These are really pilot schemes which have worked very satisfactorily and they have encouraged us to go ahead with extension of trunk dialling by subscribers throughout the country.

During the past four years, the great bulk of trunk calls have been connected with little or no delay. On many routes it was found possible to defer very heavy expenditure on permanent schemes by less expensive short term solutions but we have now reached the stage where heavy expenditure to meet both immediate and long term needs must be incurred. The need to increase the capacity of the trunk system generally was shown by the difficulty in handling the sharp rise in traffic at certain peak periods recently. Actually certain relief measures were already in hand and more are proposed but the capacity of the trunk system will need to be expanded very greatly within the next few years. Particular attention will be given to improvement on the shorter distance routes.

Last year the basis of charging for trunk calls was radically altered. Under the new system exchanges are arranged in groups for charging purposes and a simplified scale of charges is now in operation. Local call areas have been considerably extended and subscribers have the benefit of local charges for calls to all exchanges within their own groups. Simultaneously with the introduction of group-charging, the radius within which standard rentals apply was increased from two to three miles and the provision of telephones at residence rental rate was conceded to certain farmers.

The introduction of group charging, the primary object of which was to prepare the way for the extension of subscriber dialling of trunk calls, and the other concessions have resulted in a marked increase in the demand for telephones. Applications received in the 12 months ended 30th June last exceeded the average for the preceding three years by 57 per cent. The increase in demand outside Dublin has been particularly high; it exceeded the average for the previous three years by 83 per cent. Although the rate of installation of telephones is now higher than ever, there is still a waiting list of about 4,570 applications but more than half of these are with the engineers for early attention.

Financially, the telephone service is in a healthy condition. The charges are reasonable by comparison with those of other services or on any other standard and the service has been operated at a profit after providing for interest charges, depreciation and superannuation. In 1958/59 the surplus was £413,000 and for 1959/60 it is expected to be of the order of £350,000, notwithstanding the concessions in rentals and call charges a year ago. While these profits may appear to be large, they are modest in relation to the capital employed.

The present Bill is intended to provide for the needs of the next 5 years approximately. The amount for which authority is sought is £10 million which will allow of an average yearly expenditure of about £2 million. The programme proposed provides for the installation of 65,000 additional subscribers' lines and 80,000 extra telephones the net effect of which will be to increase the number of existing telephones by about one-third. It also provides for a considerable improvement in the trunk network including the permanent circuiting by means of cable and radio links of numerous main and intermediate distance routes as well as an extensive scheme of improvements on shorter routes. The maximum progress achievable will be made in the conversion of exchanges to automatic working and the subscriber trunk dialling will be extended on a wide scale. Contracts have already been placed for equipment to provide trunk dialling facilities for subscribers at Dublin and the principal provincial automatic exchanges and for the conversion of some 50 exchanges to automatic working.

The estimated break up of the proposed expenditure is: Subscribers installations and local underground schemes, £6.42 million; Exchanges— new and extended, £2.24 million; Trunk and junction circuits, £2.13 million; Buildings, £0.53 million, making a total of £11.32 million. Allowing for a carry over of a balance of approximately £0.82 million on hand on 31st March last, and some possible overestimation, the sum required is, in round figures, £10 million.

It is hardly necessary for me to expand upon the value of the telephone system in the commercial and social life of the country. It is, I think, generally agreed that apart from telephone capital expenditure being self-liquidating, extension and improvement of the service contributes to greater efficiency in production and distribution. The service also provides a very desirable social amenity. In addition, it gives worthwhile employment to thousands of our people. We have still considerable arrears of development work to make up and we must be prepared to cater for continued and steady demand for telephones. It is for these purposes that the grant of the extra funds is proposed under this Bill which I confidently recommend to the House for approval.

Mr. Sweetman

It is to some extent true that, as the Minister said, there has developed in recent years more and more of what one might call telephone awareness. Considerably more business is being done by telephone than used to be the case and, inevitably, when there is more business done in that way, considerable pressure is brought on the existing system. All of us have met from time to time in relation to the use of the telephone periods when its delays and non-functioning are infuriating. They are not, we hope, of too frequent occurrence.

I have often felt myself in some doubt, when something has gone wrong with the dialling system, whether it is better to have the impersonal system or the personal system going wrong. It is a matter of considerable doubt as to which is the more aggravating. I am bound to say, however, that the installation of the dialling system from Naas has brought very considerable advantages and has certainly convinced me of the necessity for coming on to a general dialling system all around.

There was at one time a view that it would be better to have a series of semi-automatic small exchanges around the country. I hope that view has now been abandoned. It seems to me that the essential thing about a telephone is to have a continuous all round the clock service and such a service can be provided in any satisfactory way only by connecting the outlying telephones to the main centre. It is a mistake, therefore, that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs seem occasionally to prefer to connect a telephone to a small exchange rather than to an exchange with automatic and continuous service at a slightly greater distance. As a short-term policy, it is a cheaper one but it is bad and shortsighted as well as being a short-term policy. The one thing that will really popularise the use of the telephone in rural Ireland is an all-round-the-clock service. Until such time as it is an all-round-the-clock service throughout Ireland, it will not be so popular and not so much use will be made of it. It should therefore be one of the prime objects of the Minister to ensure that nothing is done, even as a short-term policy, that prevents that long-term operation.

The Minister did give us some indication on his Estimate as to what he proposed during the coming year. I did not press him then for more details because I knew this Bill was coming up the hill and I thought we would have got more information on it. We should like to know from the Minister in greater detail what is the likelihood of ensuring that in some places one can get a no-delay trunk service. In certain places, one can get an excellent no-delay service; in others, it is far from being so good.

In relation to the manual operation of the trunk service, there is one thing I have never been able to understand. If you ring Cork and it happens that the circuits are engaged at the time or that the number is engaged, and you ask that the call be put through again as soon as possible, it never seems to be put through without an inordinate delay. I have on frequent occasions booked a call down the country and been told, which is understandable, that the circuits were engaged and that I would be called back. I have not once, but on many occasions, put the call through again on another line and got it straight away before I had been rung back. I understand there is some rule in the operation of the telephone exchange that in certain circumstances a call may not be tried again for a period of fifteen minutes. I do not quite understand how that can operate. Apparently when you book a call through, there is some kind of queuing system operated in the exchange. That should be done away with and I should like the Minister to give us some indication that the new machinery to be purchased will take care of that.

I hope also that part of this money will be spent on installing additional switchboard facilities in this House. We are lucky in having a most obliging staff but at peak periods they just cannot cope and the result is that one has to wait an inordinate length of time for calls. The delay is entirely due to lack of switchboard facilities because of which more staff cannot be put in for peak periods. If it were not for the fact that the staff have been here for a long time and are exceptionally good, the situation would be chaotic. The Minister is, I am sure, as aware as I am that there are periods when Deputies of all Parties must get calls through in a great hurry but the strain on the switchboard is such that it is impossible to do so. I hope, therefore, that new switchboard facilities for the House will be considered when this capital is being expended.

There has been considerable difficulty and delay in my constituency in relation to trunk dialling from north county Kildare. It has been most unsatisfactory from Maynooth and from Celbridge in particular. I can assure the Minister that it is not a question of reports being given to me; I have experienced it myself. I do not know whether Deputy Dooley came up as far as that or not, but when one was moving around in the last month trying to get a trunk call through from north Kildare, which means one has to dial Dublin before it is put through, it was a matter not of a minute or two but a quarter of an hour. On one occasion I tried to get a call through the exchange at Celbridge, dialling into Dublin from the exchange. I was 22 minutes in the box before I could get an answer from the exchange. I want to be quite fair: I was not the whole 22 minutes hanging on waiting on the same buzz; I became infuriated three or four times, cut it off and tried again. I was told in Celbridge by a friend of mine that that was quite a common occurrence there. It is a matter that requires reorientation of the equipment for receiving trunk dialled calls from the smaller places in which one is able to dial direct.

The Minister said that the financial cost of telephones was very reasonable in relation to other services. If he means in relation to the telegram service, that is nothing to boast about. The cost of telegrams is appalling. I should like the Minister to tell us, as we are on this subject, whether there is any method by which, if necessary, on payment of an additional fee, one can get a return more often than three months of local calls and trunk calls. By paying an additional amount, I understand one can at present get the numbers to which the trunk calls are made but sometimes we get a bill at the end of a quarter that seems outrageous and creates the suspicion at the back of our minds that there is something wrong with the automatic recording apparatus.

I am bound to admit that when it happened to me on one occasion I made a check and found that the recording apparatus was correct, that it was at the sending end in my own house that the breakdown, shall I describe it, occurred. However, I think people would prefer a more frequent system of payment, if it were available, to waiting for three months. While, on the one hand, it may cause some additional administrative cost, on the other, the money flowing into the Exchequer more promptly and more quickly should offset any such cost to a large degree.

There is nothing more annoying than to get an appalling bill at the end of three months and discover that it has arisen through some cause that could have been discovered—through some unauthorised use that nobody can guard against since it is impossible to keep the telephone under lock and key—and steps taken to remedy the position, had the bill arrived earlier. I have heard that complaint not merely in relation to private telephones but also in relation to telephones in guest houses when the guests do not want to go through the coin box method of phoning. If my suggestion were accepted, one would at least get earlier notice of the trend.

Can the Minister state when he hopes telephone density here will approximate to that across the water? How many years is it likely to be before we catch up with their toll and direct trunk dialling system? Can he tell us the places where it is likely an automatic service will be in operation in the country within the next two or three years?

Mr. Coogan

This Bill represents a good and sound investment. The Minister is certainly taking the right step. I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the engineering staff on the wonderful work they have done and are doing throughout the country. One can feel proud of our technicians. They are as good as and possibly better than their opposite numbers elsewhere. That is high commendation.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the need for giving priority in relation to the installation of phones in tourist areas. Tourism plays a very important part in our economy and tourist areas should, therefore, get priority. I appeal to the Minister also to give early attention to applicants who are still waiting for phones in Galway. We were told some time ago that the delay was due to the fact that new cables had to be laid. The new cables have been laid and I see no reason why the telephones should not be installed promptly.

I should like to pay tribute to the courtesy of the staff in Galway. In my opinion, they are doing excellent work, at a disadvantage. Steps should be taken to remedy these disadvantages. Again, I appeal to the Minister to erect telephone kiosks on every new housing estate.

Mr. Dillon

I want, first of all, to reiterate what Deputy Sweetman has said: it would be impossible to praise too highly the staff who operate the telephones in Leinster House. It is, I think, true to say that the exchange accommodation is so restricted it is not possible to provide the staff with adequate apparatus to deal with peak loads here. If, and when, it is possible to do that, I trust the Minister will be free to attend to it. Mark you, it would be quite wrong to exaggerate the problem. The service in Leinster House is, as a rule, quite adequate, but at certain peak periods, the equipment does not seem to be equal to the demands made upon it, with consequent delays.

Mr. Sweetman

That is particularly a Whips' problem.

Mr. Hilliard

It is.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister, no doubt, had experience of it at one time.

Mr. Dillon

I want to renew now a proposal which I submitted to the Minister before, and which would operate to lighten the burden of capital expenditure. I believe you could improve the weight of the demand on trunk services if, instead of having two periods, a day-time break for trunk services and a night time break for trunk services, you had an intermediate break from, say, six to nine in the evening, followed by a very cheap rate from nine at night until nine in the morning. I believe that would operate to postpone until after 9 o'clock a lot of jovial conversation on the telephone, which is an admirable thing in itself, but which may operate to overload trunk lines when more urgent business awaits transaction.

Now that we have passed out of the period of world scarcity, we ought, I think, disembarrass our minds of some of the puritanical reactions that develop in time of scarcity. There was abroad at one time a general feeling that one should not delay on the telephone. Now I was conversing cheerfully recently at about 10 o'clock at night with a friend in a neighbouring town when a voice intervened and said: "Yes will have to stop." Why we should have to stop I could not make out and, indeed, the intervener, on being closely questioned, could assign no reason either, except possibly that he felt generally it was improvident to be clattering away on a trunk line in that fashion at night. I, on the contrary, believe it would be a very good thing to permit that type of personal communication, particularly when the trunk lines are there with nothing to do. I suggest to the Minister that he should induce people to use the telephone for social conversation by offering a peculiarly attractive rate after 9 p.m. That is the first point.

The second point is that in other countries, notably in Great Britain and the United States of America, it has been found that a service providing information is widely availed of and is regarded as a considerable convenience, to say nothing of bringing a good deal of business to the telephone system. If you dial TIM on the telephone in London you get the correct time, and I know that in America if you ring up a certain four figures you can get the current weather report. There is a lot of other miscellaneous information of that kind that can be provided by recorded information and made available for the expense of a local call, and I think an extension of that type of service is worth consideration by those in charge of our telephone system, but I should like to give one note of warning to the Minister.

There are already certain types of information available by recorded messages. For instance, if you ring a number that is gone out of use and for which another number has been substituted, a lady's voice of a rather frigid character says: "This number has been changed; please ring Information." I have known respectable old ladies almost to get a stroke because they addressed a cogent supplementary question only to have the lady's voice repeat: "This number has been changed; please ring Information." They have been enraged because of this repetition in reply to their supplementary questions, and that difficulty could be overcome if there could be incorporated in the recorded message a statement saying: "This is a recorded message." That is a trifle but good service is designed to cater for the simple and the easily scandalised, and the more courtesy we can display the better it will be. I am bound to say, as I said on previous occasions, that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs set an example in that matter for all other Government Departments and, as a result of the skill with which they maintain their public relations, I think they manage to get a far greater volume of appreciative co-operation from the public than many other State or semi-State institutions succeed in getting.

If I may for a moment refer to the parish pump, could we have a direct line between Dundalk and the five principal towns in County Monaghan? We have it already in respect of Carrickmacross and I think we have it in respect of Castleblayney, but we have not got it in respect of Ballybay and I doubt if we have it in respect of Clones. I think we have it in respect of Monaghan but I can assure the Minister that there is nothing more exasperating than having to go through a number of country exchanges, passing along a series of ladies in charge of them, who could pull out the plug at a psychological moment and cut off the call you are making. If you could direct calls from a central point like Dundalk, the intervention of that catastrophe would be much more infrequent. If you have called a man from a considerable distance and he says "hello" and you identify yourself, and the lady pulls out the plug, considerable misunderstanding could result to say the least of it.

It is right that we should hand out bouquets when bouquets are in order but it would be wrong not to make complaints where they are in order too. Has the Minister heard any complaints about the occasional delay in answering when you dial "O"? If there is anything more enraging than dial "O" and listen to the blooming bell buzz and nothing else happens, I would be glad to be told of it. There is only one thing more outrageous and that is when you ring up the supervisor and say: "The bell has now rung 22 times," and she says: "The staff are very busy tonight." The presumption is that they are busy but the answer is that it is supposed to be somebody's job to provide more staff if they are. I would suggest to the Minister that the most stringent instructions should be given to supervisory staff in large exchanges that if there is a pressure which the staff is finding hard to cope with, then the supervisory staff have a duty to call in extra staff at whatever expense is involved in order to avoid that maddening delay. I do not want to elaborate on that because it is not a very common complaint, but it does exist and if on inquiry the supervisor says: "The staff is very busy tonight," she would be much better employed calling in relief staff than giving that information.

The last matter I wish to mention was raised recently in a Parliamentary Question. I do not know if the capital provision we are now making includes the publication of the telephone directory. I know the Minister is looking into the question of the binding of the directory but the information, he had when he answered the Question was that the binding was not proving unsatisfactory generally. That is fantastic. Since he made me that answer, because I apprehended that perhaps my personal experience had been peculiar, I have been noticing the condition of directories in various houses and establishments where I have had business to transact, and I am sure that 25 per cent. of the directories in Dublin are in flitters. The backs are broken and the directories themselves are now in two or three bits.

Clearly there has been some failure correctly to estimate the quality of binding which is requisite to secure adequate survival for a telephone directory. It is a mistake into which, I suppose, anybody could fall in one year, but it is wrong simply to assume that it has not happened because, if you do, then it will happen again. I can assure the Minister that in addition to the ink and print employed it would be necessary to call for a review of the durability of the binding employed, not with reference to the two covers primarily, but with reference to the spine of the directory which is quite unsatisfactory as at present provided.

Mr. Hilliard

It is an encouragement to find the Opposition, through Deputy Sweetman, pressing on me to proceed as quickly as possible with the change-over to automatic dialling all over the country. That has been the policy of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for quite some time now and they have already completed the changes in a number of exchanges. Deputy Sweetman wished me to inform him what was the programme for this year. The programme for the current year includes the extension of a number of automatic exchanges— two new automatic changes in Cork City, and the conversion, of the following exchanges to automatic working: Aughnacliffe, Ballisodare, Ballymahon, Clonsilla, Finea, Granard, Leabeg, Loch Gowna, Rochfortbridge, Skerries—which has been opened already—and Tyrrellspass.

A contract has been placed for the conversion to automatic working, with subscriber trunk dialling facilities, of 50 manual exchanges, but delivery of the equipment by the contractors will not be effected until 1961. These include exchanges in the Tuam, Midleton, Roscommon, Curragh Camp, Kildare, New Ross, Balbriggan, Kinsale and Bundoran groups.

Mr. Sweetman

I did not hear New-bridge in that. I thought it was coming this year.

Mr. Hilliard

That is an exchange itself. The intention is that all exchanges, large and small, will be automatic with, of course, a 24 hour service. Deputy Sweetman mentioned delays in North Kildare in short trunk calls and in calls to Dublin. The same state of affairs applies in many other exchange areas, when traffic increases at busy hours, and the extension of the local call area has contributed to this increase in traffic. The delays occur only during the busy periods. The question of finding additional circuits will have attention as soon as possible. The matter is being considered by the officials of the Department but the question will have to be approached on a planned basis.

In conjunction with the work that is planned in connection with the change-over to automatic working of a number of exchanges I have mentioned, this other work of providing extra circuits in areas that are not due for immediate treatment in the change—over to automatic working will be considered. The areas in which the delays are greater will as far as possible get priority treatment. The Department have the matter very much in mind and are giving it constant attention. When the Bill has been passed, every effort will be made by the Department to catch up with arrears of work in that regard.

Deputy Sweetman raised the question of the three-monthly account. There is provision for monthly trunk accounts but not for monthly local call accounts.

Mr. Sweetman

Now that Naas, for example, is six local calls.

Mr. Hilliard

I shall look into the question as it is raised in a general way and see if the request can be dealt with economically. It is doubtful if it can. It is very difficult to keep track of calls made from one's own home. I understand the situation personally. The telephone can be used by many people and the bills can mount to an extent far greater than anticipated. People who are careful of their disbursements try to keep a record of their telephone calls.

Mr. Sweetman

I am afraid I use mine so much that I would not have enough pencil and paper.

Mr. Hilliard

Where the telephone is used exclusively by one person that can be done.

The question of Leinster House was raised by Deputy Sweetman. In the first instance, this is a matter for the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Sweetman

I am not allowed to criticise him.

Mr. Hilliard

It is a problem which, of course, I knew from my experience when I was an assistant Whip to my Party. However, I shall have the matter examined in the Post Office to see what we can do to help. I know that at certain times there is difficulty in making contact outside through the exchange here. I shall have the matter examined. If there is need, after the findings of the examination have been reported to me, for additional facilities, I shall see they are provided.

Mr. Sweetman

Fair enough.

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Dillon suggested the introduction of the automatic time service. This has been considered from time to time but it would require a considerable amount of planning and has had to be deferred in favour of more urgent essential works. The same applies to the desirable but not essential information service mentioned by Deputy Dillon. Instead of the charges that are made at present, he wants an intermediate rate for telephone calls in the evening and a very cheap rate later at night. That question has been examined by the Department. While there is merit in the suggestion, we find it would not be in the interests of the telephone service to adopt it now. If we gave serious consideration to such a suggestion, with a view to having it implemented, as matters stand, it would mean we would have a very substantial increase in the late evening or night traffic. That would involve extra late attendances by the operating staff. In short, it would be a doubtful financial proposition, involving staffing difficulties for the Department. Its consideration will be left over until we have the automatic working, so that it is a question that can be considered then. What decision will be arrived at at that time, I shall not be able to say. I do not believe I shall have anything to do with the decision at that time.

Mr. Sweetman

I am glad the Minister realises that Fianna Fáil will not be there.

Mr. Hilliard

It will be a long time before Fianna Fáil go out of Government and Deputy Sweetman is back again as Minister for Finance.

Mr. Sweetman

A very short time.

Mr. Hilliard

A very long time. If he ever comes back, he will not come back as a single Party. He will have to have some little support.

Mr. Sweetman

There is no doubt whatever about our being back in a very short time, within the next 19 months.

Mr. Hilliard

I do not know about that. We shall see.

Mr. Sweetman

Maybe not, but Carlow-Kilkenny——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Sweetman

We are having a most pleasant conversation.

Mr. Hilliard

The binding of the telephone directory has created a problem for many years past. There were a number of complaints regarding the unsuitability of the binding, prior to the decision last year to make the book smaller. The number of names appearing in the directory was increasing at such a rate that it was found that in order to keep the book in a single volume, it was not possible to have it bound by the printers here. The decision then had to be taken whether to have two books or one book. The Stationery Office and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs decided that with the introduction of the new Bell Gothic type, the size of the book could be reduced considerably and that it could be a single volume. The decision was taken and the book was bound as we see it now.

I do not know if there is any way in which we can improve the binding of the directory. I think it is not possible to have the book bound in a more lasting or more efficient way. There are technical difficulties facing the contractors.

Mr. Sweetman

Is there any substantial difference between the cost of having one volume and two volumes?

Mr. Hilliard

There is a difference but it is not so substantial. Then there are other difficulties, if the decision is taken to have two volumes. The policy at present is to keep the directory in a single volume, for as long as possible. Eventually, with the increase in telephone usage, we shall have to have two books.

Mr. Sweetman

If the cost of that is the middle falling out, on the one hand and the type being difficult to read on the other hand——

Mr. Hilliard

We have not received the complaints the Deputy appears to have in relation to the deterioration of the directory over the years. We had somewhat more complaints in relation to the binding of the previous directories. To try to meet the complaints made in connection with the previous volumes, the decision was taken to have the smaller volume so that it would be more manageable, more useful and more permanent. That is the idea behind the decision taken in that regard.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister said the other day that the volume would be replaced on demand.

Mr. Hilliard

That is correct. It would be cheaper to replace it on demand than to have——

Mr. Sweetman

I must confess that I did not know that was so. How does one do it?

Mr. Hilliard

I am advised it is correct. You could ask the postmaster, the postman or write to the Headquarters of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister will get an application for a few in my office tomorrow morning or the next day.

Mr. Hilliard

In connection with the telephone directory, a decision was also taken during the year to try to improve it by a change in the type used. That in itself will cause some delay in the issue of the directory this year. This delay cannot be avoided. I hope the directory will meet my wishes and the wishes of subscribers generally in the country and that they will regard it as an improvement on the directory issued last year but we have to wait, I think, about two months longer for the issue of the directory.

Mr. Sweetman

If it is an improvement on last year's botch, we shall all be quite happy.

Question put and agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

Next Stage?

Mr. Hilliard

Can we have all the Stages now?

Mr. Sweetman

I think it would be more seemly to give them all to the Minister tomorrow. It is a bad principle to run everything through. We shall give them tomorrow morning.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, l3th July, 1960.