Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Nov 1960

Vol. 184 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Relief of Unemployment: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That in view of the present serious unemployment position and the certainty that unemployment will increase still further during the winter months, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should make money immediately available to local authorities for the relief of unemployment."—(Deputy Corish.)

I have been wondering in the past few days whether this House is taking the motion in the very serious manner in which it should be taken. Of all the motions placed on the Order Paper since the Government took office, there has been none of the same urgency or importance. If it is of great urgency to the Labour Party and to the other Parties, I should like to hear an expression of opinion from some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies, apart from the Parliamentary Secretary.

I have something to say on this motion and I say it in the knowledge that never in our history have we had such an unemployment problem as we have at present. Not alone that, but for the first time in many years, we have people who are actually hungry in this country and it is a long time since there was such serious demand on the funds and services of charitable organisations. I venture to say that with the winter which we commenced yesterday, we are facing the dampest, blackest and hungriest winter since the Famine. We realise that fathers of families are unemployed and in receipt of meagre benefits. They have to face their wives and possibly large families with very little to support them. We have hungry children going to our schools in various parts of the country today.

Realising the dimensions of the unemployment problem, let us take the statements made at the last general election in regard to unemployment. I am quoting from a speech by the Taoiseach published in the Irish Press of 21st February, 1957. He said: “Unemployment and emigration are the acid tests of policy. A Fianna Fáil Government will measure the effectiveness of its worth by these standards”. The Taoiseach said that at Trim. He proceeded to Kinsale and said that the immediate task of Fianna Fáil would be to get work for those who were unemployed.

Having delivered a long speech including laments for those who were unemployed at the time, he proceeded to speak in Dublin on 22nd February, 1957, and said that the unemployed could not be expected to wait until long-term production plans brought them permanent benefit. We also had the usual Fianna Fáil advertisements at the last general election dealing with unemployment. One, issued on 23rd February, 1957, said: "The country needs in Government policy an immediate solution for our unemployment problem". What is the result? Having regard to the promises to provide work, having pledged themselves that if elected as a Government, they would lose no time in providing work, we had every Fianna Fáil candidate at his church gates at the last election saying that all that was wanted was a change of Government and there would be more jobs to fill than there would be people to fill them. Every Deputy on this side of the House heard those speeches; every Deputy on the opposite side made those speeches. Here we are on the eve of another general election and if we are to judge the Government on their policy of providing work, may we say they have done nothing whatever towards implementing the pledges and promises which the Taoiseach made in Dublin, Kinsale and Trim ?

That is absolutely incorrect.

The first step they had to take was to provide work. We now find fewer people in employment today. There are 4,000 fewer employed by local authorities and the reason is that the Government scrapped the Local Authorities (Works) Act which was a wonderful source of employment in every county. Why did they do it? Through jealousy, spite and bitterness. They scrapped it simply because it was an Act brought in by the previous Government and it gave worthwhile employment to many fathers and heads of households. May I say this with the authority of this side of the House: the moment the change of Government takes place, which certainly will take place within the next few months, one of the first actions of the new Government will be to restore the Local Authorities (Works) Act——

Who will form the new Government?

——and provide employment for those people who have been put out of work because of the scrapping of that Act? We can go a step further. Section B of the Land Project provided great employment in rural Ireland. Again we see the cold, still hand of Fianna Fáil clamped down on the workers with the scrapping of Section B which resulted in great unemployment amongst those who were doing valuable and useful work draining and reclaiming the land for the farming community. We can see very clearly that the building trade has practically collapsed completely—

I beg the Deputy's pardon?

The building trade has practically collapsed in rural Ireland. How many major housing schemes are now sponsored by local authorities? What great source of employment are they? A document recently published dealing with the trend of employment and unemployment in 1959 reveals that while, between the years 1958 and 1959, there were 9,000 fewer at work in agriculture, forestry and fisheries, there was no increase in the number of persons at work in non-agricultural economic activity during the same period.

Is that not the test of the Government's policy? We see from their own figures—mind you, they tell us themselves; these are their own statistics—in a document published and issued by the Government, entitled the Trend of Employment and Unemployment, that there are thousands registered as unemployed. How does that report dealing with 1959 fit in with the Taoiseach's speech of 1957? At that time, work was on his lips, power was in his mind and votes were in his heart. He was only really interested in the votes and the power, and we heard nothing about work since. The Taoiseach went further than that when he was in Opposition.

This important motion sponsored by the Labour Party will be supported in the Division Lobby by the Fine Gael Party, because we realise the urgency of this problem and we know there is no leadership, so far as unemployment is concerned. We know no one in the Government is anxious to see that work is provided for those who form the big queues outside the labour exchanges. Every Garda barracks in rural Ireland is thronged on signing days, and on the days when unemployment assistance is being paid, there is no room in the post offices for any other business activity because of the queues of people who are waiting to receive the dole payment.

The Parliamentary Secretary is an honest man and I am sure that, being an honest man, when he was charged with responsibility of employment schemes and the provision of employment through relief schemes provided by the Office of Public Works—bog development schemes, rural improvement schemes and other schemes under his charge—he must have asked the Taoiseach what had happened to the £100,000,000 plan which was to solve the unemployment problem and which was promised by the Taoiseach. Would one not expect that this would be the proper occasion to find out what happened to that plan and whether it is now on the shelves in Merrion Street, covered in dust and surrounded by cobwebs? Is it not only right that we should try to find out what happened to that plan which the Taoiseach said he had in mind, and which he promised and pledged to those who were then unemployed?

I believe the plan and the promise of £100,000,000 was a mere vote-catching device, but at the time of the last general election and for the first six months Fianna Fáil were in office, there were tens of thousands of people in this country who firmly believed that the Government could not be so hard-necked, so thick-skinned and so hard-hearted as to promise and pledge to the workers a £100,000,000 scheme for the provision of work for the unemployed and not implement that promise. It is very easy to make promises when one knows that five years must elapse before one will be asked to give an account of one's stewardship.

Nearly four years have passed since the Government made that solemn promise, in Clery's Restaurant, I think. In the newspapers and from the lips of every Fianna Fáil Deputy were re-echoed the words of the Taoiseach with regard to the huge benefits of that great plan which he had in mind which would provide untold and unending employment. We may hear a juggling of figures in a few moments from the Parliamentary Secretary giving details of the numbers at present unemployed but what about the endless thousands who have been forced to emigrate in the past three years? It was an unusual type of emigration so far as the workers were concerned, because the emigration of the past three years was not the emigration of the father of a family, but the emigration of the father, the wife and the entire family.

This motion, contains great merit and it demands an explanation from the Government for their miserable failure to provide work. A Government who cannot provide work for the people are failing in their duty and in their obligations, and unless work is provided for the working-class people, the Government may accordingly be judged and that judgment can only be one of failure.

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what happened to the Arterial Drainage Act, for which he is directly responsible? That Act is a means by which great employment could and should be provided. While a number of rivers have been drained in recent years, surely it is not outside the bounds of possibility that the Parliamentary Secretary's Office should carry out a survey and have at least the preliminary work undertaken on most of the remaining major rivers. I make special reference to the River Nore which drains a large part of my constituency and practically the entire county of Kilkenny and the Suir, which drains the greater portion of south Tipperary. We should like to know what action, the Parliamentary Secretary has taken in regard to the Shannon. What employment could be provided if some scheme were implemented to give some relief, if he cannot provide a permanent solution to the unemployment problem. I recommend the Parliamentary Secretary to take down the Arterial Drainage Act, shake the dust off it, remove the cobwebs from it and, having done that, go through it to see if employment could be provided on drainage for some of the thousands who are now available for employment. Drainage is most important. There is an endless employment potential on drainage. I am convinced the thousands who are now unemployed could be put into worthwhile employment if the Government were prepared to implement a sane and sound policy aimed chiefly at providing employment.

It is possible that a good deal of employment could be provided if moneys were made available to enable local authorities to prepare building sites, carry out roadmaking schemes and repair culs-de-sac. I am convinced employment could be provided if special consideration were given in areas where the local contribution cannot be found under the rural improvement scheme; where there are large numbers unemployed in such areas, the Office of Public Works should give at least a 95 per cent. grant, or, where it is merited, a 100 per cent. grant in order to provide employment.

It is appropriate on this motion to refer to the question of sanction, particularly in relation to Christmas relief work. In many areas sanction comes a week or ten days before Christmas. Hundreds of workers employed on these schemes receive no money before Christmas. It is common knowledge on both sides of this House that last Christmas, because of late sanction, workers on relief schemes had to seek special concessions from local authorities so that they would be paid on Christmas Eve. Because of the late starting, the workers had not worked a sufficient number of hours to qualify for payment on St. Stephen's Day. That was due to the fact that sanction was not given sufficiently far in advance. Christmas relief work should commence in November and continue right through December. A number of payments should be made to workers employed on relief schemes well in advance of Christmas Eve. In addition, these workers should be given a double week's pay, provided they are genuinely employed on relief work and have been sent to employment from the labour exchange.

Bog development could employ ten times the number now employed. The allowance provided for bog development is, to say the least of it, very meagre. In bog development, there is a large element of drainage and road-making. If there were proper co-ordination between the Office of Public Works and the Forestry Division, continuous permanent employment could be given on very useful work. It is a pity there is not more co-operation between the Office of Public Works and Bord na Móna. While Bord na Móna gives a vast amount of employment, the employment is seasonal in character. With more cooperation, the employees could be turned over to making roads. With more co-ordination with the Forestry Division, they could be diverted to the preparation of cutaway and waste bog for planting. In that way, continuity of employment could be provided the whole year through.

The sooner we realise that the Special Employment Schemes Office has outlived its usefulness, the better it will be. If we are to tackle the unemployment problem, we need something bigger and better. The Office of Public Works is only tinkering with the problem. What we want is worthwhile, productive, permanent employment. This motion is not really germane to the Office of Public Works. The Office of Public Works is scarcely worthy of consideration when it comes to the question of providing employment.

Might I remind the Deputy that 30 minutes are allowed to each contributor?

I thought it was an hour and a half.

That is so, but the Deputy may take only 30 minutes of that.

I do not propose to take that.

The Deputy has had 28 minutes already.

Time flies when one is talking. I do not propose to take more than two minutes more.

It is only fair to remind the Deputy.

I can assure you I should not like to trespass on the time of another Deputy. I merely wish to emphasise the importance of this motion, for which we shall vote. I challenge Fianna Fáil Deputies to speak on this motion. It is a very important one. The employment problem is not being tackled. The white flag has been hoisted by the Government. The only thing left for them to do is the decent thing; it is the thing the unemployed expect them to do. They expect them to be honourable enough to admit that they made promises they could not fulfil, false promises in order to capture votes. They expect them to say now: "We made promises we could not fulfil because they were false promises given to catch votes. The best thing we can do is to get out and hand over to someone who will tackle the problem seriously and energetically and provide work."

Lest we forget the terms of the motion, it might be as well if I were to read it for the House:

That in view of the present serious unemployment position and the certainty that unemployment will increase still further during the winter months, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should make money immediately available to local authorities for the relief of unemployment.

Since the Office of Public Works is the office which usually provides money for the relief of unemployment, I have sat here and listened to this debate since it started. Even though the motion from its wording and the approach by Deputies to it so far, would seem to merit no other treatment than that accorded to a mere propaganda gimmick, I nevertheless propose to take it seriously. The motion has been on the Order Paper since last year.

Whose fault is that?

Is there any suggestion by the Parliamentary Secretary that the Labour Party dropped it back?

That is all right. The Parliamentary Secretary should make that clear.

What was predicted in the motion when it went on the Order Paper this time last year was that the position would worsen as time went on. It did not. The registered figures of unemployed, about which we have just heard so much, have shown a considerable improvement.

It will this year, though.

The seasonal increase predicted was 5,000 less than in the previous year.

This year.

The downward trend continues. Before I deal with the actual efforts made annually to cope with seasonal unemployment, it is no harm to throw our minds back to what the position actually was during those years which the last speaker seems to regard as years of prosperity. Was there any motion or any effort by the members who are now on the other side of the House in the winter of 1956-57 when the registered figures of unemployed were considerably more serious than they are now? The figures of registered unemployed in 1956-57 were 47,343 as compared with 34,669 in the past month. During that winter, what was the position in relation to what we have been asked to do now?

The last Estimates prepared by the Government then in power showed a drastic reduction in the amount of money available for the relief of unemployment. When one considers these facts and then listens to the speeches made since the introduction of this motion, it is very hard to take the motion as anything other than a propaganda gimmick, in which light I do not propose to regard it.

Deputy Corish was reasonable. He gave credit to the Government for creating 3,000 new jobs. He was not trying to be generous in giving credit to the present Administration. Do Deputies such as Deputy Murphy ever look at the Book of Estimates and calculate what is actually provided for such things?

Like the last speaker, Deputy Murphy dwelt on the magnitude of the problem and said it was more serious than ever. The figures are a complete denial of that statement.

After explaining the gravity of the situation, Deputy Murphy suggests that £500,000 would settle the whole situation. The Special Employment Schemes Office, in its Estimate for the current financial year, provides directly for the relief of unemployment a sum of £877,000 and we are everything but satisfied with the amount of employment that can give. However, it is considerably more than what was provided in much more serious circumstances in the past and that is something about which we should all be serious and realistic. Of that amount of £877,000, a sum of £262,000 has already been provided to local authorities in respect of rural employment schemes and urban employment schemes, for which schemes are now being selected. If they have not been selected in time for Christmas employment, it is the fault of the local authorities concerned. They are usually prompt. Schemes are coming in at the moment in good time.

In addition, there are minor employment schemes, rural improvement schemes and bog development schemes. All these are calculated to give a few weeks' work and, at the same time, to restore an accommodation road to a better state, to clean a drain, to make in some urban area a better footpath, or to provide some local amenity that is much required.

Do we really try to appreciate the problem? When Deputy Murphy suggests that £500,000 would be sufficient to solve this problem, does he realise that, at the moment, under these schemes, it costs over £30 to provide one week's work in Dublin for one man? Does he realise that if we were to provide continuous employment for all the unemployed in Dublin, at that rate, it would take £2½ million for Dublin alone? It is not always easy to get suitable schemes with a good labour content, particularly in the urban areas, particularly in Dublin and Cork. A certain amount of the money must go on materials and on supervision. No matter how we try, a certain amount of machinery must be used, if the money is to be spent reasonably economically. Actually, it would take more than £30, under these schemes, to give one week's work to one unemployed person.

Give him an extra £1 a week and save £29.

I do not think we are at all realistic about the problem. When I say we have gone, in the circumstances, farther than the previous Government went at any stage, in relation to the figures of unemployed. I am putting the position mildly.

That is right—you are putting them out.

In addition to the £877,000 which is provided directly from the Special Employment Schemes Office Vote for the relief of unemployment in the current year, we have several other grants directly related to the provision of employment for a similar class of persons. I shall run over a few of these and ask any Deputy to compare them with past performances in similar circumstances.

From Road Fund grants this year, there is almost £6 million. From arterial drainage, there is a sum of £723,517 in the current year. From the farm buildings scheme, there is a sum of £770,017. From the land project, which the last speaker told us was killed, there is a sum of £2,170,894. That makes a total of almost £10½ million. I am not taking into account the activities of Bord na Móna, the E.S.B. and the Forestry Section—all of which show increased activity. I do not know why Deputies seek to create a feeling of crisis when it simply does not exist. All that we have to go on are the facts as we find them. We have always gone on the facts. We must compare the present situation with the situation in preceding years. Those are the facts as I find them and I do not see what is to be achieved by trying to magnify the situation in order to make propaganda out of it, which certainly does not improve the lot of the unfortunate people concerned.

Are we supposed to forget about it?

I said that despite the fact that I am convinced that the motion is merely a propaganda gimmick, I proposed to treat it seriously.

What are you going to do about it?

I have very little proof that it was anything else. I should like to deal with one matter that has been bandied around here in every debate in relation to unemployment, that is, the Local Authorities (Works) Act. In the debate so far on this motion, which Deputies tried to enshroud in a cloak of importance—an attempt which failed— the only suggestion made was that money should be provided under the Local Authorities (Works) Act and that everything would be solved. What is the position with regard to works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act?

I have been a member of a local authority for 15 or 18 years. I have been only a short time in my present office. There has hardly been a week that I have not had one, two or three deputations regarding flooding. In almost every instance, it was indicated that £1,000, £2,000 or £3,000 had been spent a few years ago and that the flooding was as bad now as ever it was. In many cases, the people who came to me in connection with local authority works say that the flooding is caused mainly by a job which was done upstream last year or a few years ago. In one case in connection with which I received a deputation recently £2,500 had been spent up-stream which only aggravated the position downstream and the entire river requires draining again.

Every Deputy is aware that a Drainage Commission was set up and that the vexed question of drainage was thoroughly examined. That commission reported unanimously that drainage was useless, unless tackled on an arterial basis.

Did the Department of Local Government not have to sanction every scheme under the Local Authorities (Works) Act? Therefore, the engineers must be responsible for the bad work done, according to the Parliamentary Secretary's statement.

I did not say that bad work was done.

What else did he say?

I shall make it very clear. The Deputy knows quite well what I mean. That commission reported that if drainage were to be tackled properly, it should be tackled on an arterial basis. Machinery was set up to undertake the gigantic work of arterial drainage. I shall give the figures of expenditure on it this year —£723,517, as compared with £600,000 on works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, which showed a diminishing figure in each of your last three years in office.

The difference between arterial drainage and works done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act was that an inadequate amount of money was provided under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, that in many cases a work was carried out in the middle of a stream or river, that no provision was made for maintenance, that the work was completely inadequate to provide any solution to the problem of drainage of the huge catchment concerned. Very often, the work carried out caused flooding downstream and aggravated the problem further and, like most of the drainage that has been done for years, finished by leaving the problem worse than it was.

You should ask Deputy Corry about it.

I do not know what the Deputy is saying.

Ask Deputy Corry about it.

Does land reclamation provide for after maintenance?

The same way.

That is a poser.

Order! The Parliamentary Secretary should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Surely we can ask a question.

There are too many questions.

Could I ask him one?

Wait until I have answered the first question which I have been asked. I did not interrupt any Deputy. I do not think a Deputy who is threatened with intelligence, like Deputy Corish, seriously believes that land projects should carry a provision for future maintenance. If a man obtains a grant for the draining of his land, the least that might be expected is that the main waterways into which the drains lead should be kept cleaned. Surely he does not expect a maintenance squad to drain his land each year for him. Our forefathers would have been surprised if land were drained for them under a grant. In the old days, they did it themselves.

I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary in that.

The landlords did it, not the tenants.

The owners of the land did it.

All right. They belonged to a different type from us.

Do not let anybody try to relate ordinary land project drainage, which is the drainage of a man's farm, with drainage of the main waterways in an arterial scheme.

The Drainage Commission report stated that if we did not tackle the drainage at the outflow, remove the obstacles upstream, after a careful survey, and do all the tributaries in the entire catchment, we would be, literally speaking, wasting money on drainage as such. That is the type of drainage that we are pressing forward at the moment and I am very happy to note that we have accelerated the progress in that direction and have been able to take on a few intermediate schemes which, I hope, will come into operation in the coming year and further augment the huge programme already on hand.

Where, may I ask the Parliamentary Secretary?

They are nicely distributed over the country. We hope to put four of these intermediate schemes into operation each year in addition to the priority list on minor catchments and the priority list on major catchments. The progress has been accelerated as we have been able to build up the necessary technical staff and as that staff have gained experience and knowledge as the scheme progressed.

It is a huge undertaking but it is drainage of a real type which will ultimately completely solve the problem of drainage. We could go on tinkering with minor drainage for years to come and be no better off than we were when we started. When we have sufficiently advanced with arterial drainage, if any Government then feels that the minor waterways could be cleaned by works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, they are welcome to do it. Otherwise, you are putting the cart before the horse.

What about maintenance then?

It would be worth considering but once we have the main catchment drained and the necessary maintenance provided, if the minor water ways are not going to get future maintenance the position will still be a lot better than it was.

But the Parliamentary Secretary ignores the fact that a big bulk of this money was spent on the alleviation of flooding on roads.

He does not know about that.

I have very strong views and expressed them in this House many years ago and in the Donegal County Council about the same problem. When schemes under the Local Authorities (Works) Act were first introduced we interpreted the circular sent around to local authorities, as I think it was intended to be interpreted at the time, as meaning that all works had to be related to roads in some way. If you examine the work done under that Act you will find that Donegal is one of the, counties which seldom, if ever, departed from that interpretation of the circular issued at that time. In other counties they were draining fields and farms. My judgment of the sense or otherwise of the scheme was: if we are to spend money on roads let it all be spent on roads. If it is for drainage let it be for drainage. I saw instances where drains were opened along roads that had not a surface capable of carrying a donkey cart. I could not see the sense of that.

The Parliamentary Secretary has only five minutes to tell us what he is going to do for the unemployed.

The motion asked that money be provided to local authorities for employment. One of the Deputy's colleagues. Deputy Murphy, suggested that £500,000 would provide a panacea for all these evils. I have pointed out to him that we have provided this year £877,000 and if the Book of Estimates was studied this motion, in the face of that, would necessarily be withdrawn. Money is being provided, to a greater extent than was provided under much more serious circumstances when the Deputy was a member of the Party which formed the Government for three years.

£500,000 extra, more than.

It is still much more than £500,000 extra compared with the provision made in your Estimates of 1956-57. That is the important point. The Deputy should keep quiet on that. I do not think it is necessary to say any more. I do not know whether I should deal with all the points made about whether the present Government made promises and did not carry them out or whether the past Government made promises and did carry them out. There is one thing of which I have a clear recollection. I had a campaign in the last election to hold my seat like any other Deputy. I did not in one single instance require to make any promise to anybody because there was a very definite clamour in the country to get stability and the slogan at the time was: "Put them out." I never found it so easy to be elected as on that occasion. What the people wanted more than anything else— and every Deputy knows it in his heart—was stability.

Strong Government.

They wanted stability.

And they got it with knobs on.

They wanted confidence restored in the financial situation.

At six per cent.

I am dealing now with employment schemes, the provision of money for the unemployed. There are 27 per cent. fewer people registered as unemployed to-day. What was the position in the Office of Public Works in connection with those schemes when the Government changed? That is what no Deputy on the other side of the House has tried to explain. What provision was made in the last Estimate provided by that Government going out of office when there were 27 per cent. more registered unemployed than there are to-day?

I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary is he serious when he says the situation to-day is not an urgent one?

If the Deputy would let me finish the statement: not as bad as it was when you went out of office.

The Parliamentary Secretary has specifically referred to the period 1956-57 when the inter-Party Government were in power. Does he remember that at that time the Government had to impose import tariffs to restrict the people from purchasing because they had already upset the balance of trade to the tune of close on £60,000,000?

That does not arise on this motion.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned 1956-57. I would not refer to it if he had not done so. I merely want to answer the question.

The balance of payments was never in a better position than it is to-day without any special measures.

But the proof that things were very good in 1956-57 was that money was in such circulation, the people had such purchasing power and such confidence in the inter-Party Government that they purchased £60,000,000 worth more in one year than they were earning.

Might I point out to the Deputy that the motion relates to the relief of unemployment by way of moneys made available to the local authorities?

I shall not deal with that further because I have answered the Parliamentary Secretary. I have put a question to him he will not answer in a hurry.

Will the Deputy explain why there were 27,000 more unemployed?

For this reason, that there was not the wholesale emigration there is now.

Surely the Deputy does not believe that.

If the Parliamentary Secretary is clapping himself on the back about certain things today let me ask him what would be the position, taking only last year, if the 40,000 who emigrated were home? What kind of a picture would we have then?

Is the Deputy suggesting——

On a point of order, is Deputy Blowick to be permitted to speak without constant interruption from the Parliamentary Secretary?

Deputy Blowick is addressing me, not the Chair.

While the Parliamentary Secretary was speaking he was interrupted on at least 20 or 30 occasions and the Chair endeavoured to get a fair hearing for the Parliamentary Secretary——

I did not interrupt a speaker.

—just as the Chair will try to get a fair hearing for Deputy Blowick.

I want to answer the question put to me by the present speaker.

On a point of order, may other Deputies speak a second time?

If Deputy Blowick gives way the Parliamentary Secretary may speak.

Let us have it.

More people emigrated during his two periods of Government, even if you include the present year.

That is nonsense.

That is only a point of view.

If the Parliamentary Secretary honestly believes that—and I think he does——

——then the situation is much worse than I thought because the whole Government, including the Parliamentary Secretary, are away up in the clouds. They have not the foggiest idea what is happening in rural Ireland today. What absolutely shocked me was the bland, placid reply that the Taoiseach gave today to a question by Deputy McQuillan which shows he does not know what is happening and that the Deputies behind him from rural Ireland, including the Parliamentary Secretary, are not telling him the situation. Let me put this question: will you take a census of the number of houses closed in every parish in rural Ireland since this Government came into power four years ago?

We did take a census.

Take a census of the houses where families were living four years ago——

I remember putting the same question to Deputy O'Sullivan.

The Parliamentary Secretary must allow Deputy Blowick to speak without interruption.

I do not mind what questions the Parliamentary Secretary puts to Deputy O'Sullivan. What I am concerned about is the position in rural Ireland. If he goes around, as I do and as I suppose most Deputies in rural areas do, to the chapel gates on a Sunday to address public meetings, all he will see will be old people, school children, women and maybe about five or six young men between the ages of 18 and 40 among 500 people. This Government is responsible very largely for that situation. Our first period in office was the first time since this country got its freedom away back in 1921, that the downward trend in the population was halted. You have shattered all that since you got back. It could not be otherwise, because your leaders, although the Parliamentary Secretary himself boasts that he made no promises——

Your former Ministers admit 20,000 emigrants during their period of office——

The Parliamentary Secretary told us that he never found it easier to get a seat but he will never find it easier to lose it than at the next election. What really angers me is the absolute complacency on the Government side about one of the most desperate situations that has arisen in this country since the famine. It is not as bad as the years of the famine.

It is not as bad as 1956, anyhow.

It could not be otherwise because the Government got into power on a flood of false promises—promises which were a standing joke.

Would the Deputy endeavour to come to the motion, otherwise I shall have to ask him to resume his seat? He has not mentioned the motion which deals with the relief of unemployment through grants to local authorities.

He is trying to trace the need.

I am trying to answer questions which the Parliamentary Secretary put when he was speaking.

Who printed these posters? Is poor Senator Mullins to take the rap?

As time is running out, the Deputy should allow Deputy Blowick to make his speech. It would be only fair.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary and other members of the Government realise the shocking state of things obtaining in rural Ireland for want of some employment or other? Only for the train and the emigrant ship, I do not know what would happen. Even the few who are left are in a pretty bad plight. There is not a tap of work anywhere in Mayo or Galway. The Minister for Lands has two very useful Departments so far as employment is concerned—the Department of Forestry and the Land Commission. He has brought work in the Land Commission to a standstill.

That is irrelevant and does not arise. We are dealing with the relief of unemployment.

We are dealing with the number disemployed by the Minister for Lands.

The Deputy would be out of order in dealing with that.

On a point of order——

There is a motion asking the local authorities——

On a point of order. Due to the fact that the Department of Forestry and other Departments have failed to provide employment, surely the speaker is entitled to find out the obligations resting on the Parliamentary Secretary to make more money available under this motion?

I must hold Deputies to the motion before the House.

Very good. The motion says:

"That in view of the present serious unemployment position and the certainty that unemployment will increase still further during the winter months, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should make money immediately available to local authorities for the relief of unemployment."

I am pointing out where the Parliamentary Secretary's colleagues in the Government have swelled unemployment when they could have reduced it. Had they done so, this motion would be unnecessary.

The Chair is asking the Deputy to relate his remarks to the motion.

May I point out that the Deputy is merely trying to refute statements of the Parliamentary Secretary who protested that there was no unemployment?

The Parliamentary Secretary said no such thing. He simply stated the fact—that there was less unemployment now than when the Deputy was Minister for Social Welfare in 1956-57, when less money was provided for more unemployment.

Because they had all emigrated.

Those are the figures.

There are 9,000 fewer in fisheries, agriculture and forestry than last year. We have the figures here.

The amount provided for unemployment is directly related to the number of registered unemployed. The number of registered unemployed now is fewer than it was in 1956-57.

I took down word for word what the Parliamentary Secretary said. He said that the situation had improved since this motion was tabled a year ago.

Yes. There is a downward trend in the number of registered unemployed.

Forty thousand have gone across to England.

That is what you say.

The plague is there in the form of Fianna Fáil. They told us the other day that the Irish people never had it better. They are talking through their hats.

It is easy to blather like that. It does not get us anywhere.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary trying to bring home to the Government the gravity of the unemployment situation?

I am making it clear that we are providing more money for the registered unemployed, more than you provided in your last year of office when there were many more registered unemployed.

That is humbug and a falsehood.

The figures are incontrovertible. The figures are there.

I could not believe a single word of what the Parliamentary Secretary said. The same conditions exist in Donegal as in Mayo——

What about the figures of the employed?

Is everybody on this side of the House talking through his hat?

Everybody knows the Deputy is talking nonsense.

Those in the cities of Birmingham and Coventry know I am not because these cities are filled with Irishmen who have fled from Fianna Fáil.

May I give the figures of the registered unemployed?

This is irregular. The Parliamentary Secretary is disorderly in interrupting Deputy Blowick. The rules of the House apply to the Parliamentary Secretary just as they apply to other Deputies.

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary this question? How many houses have closed between Grange and Bundoran for want of employment? That is coming very close to an area which the Parliamentary Secretary must know intimately.

Not as many closed as when you were there.

It is since you got in that they closed. When the inter-Party Government was in power, there was full employment. Money never circulated more freely. The Government then kept the cost of living down and kept a level hand on government.

Would the Deputy try to relate some of his remarks to the motion before the House, just for the record?

It is very difficult in view of the completely irrelevant remarks and interruptions by the Parliamentary Secretary. I was under the impression that the Parliamentary Secretary was an honest man—a man trying to do his best and one who tried to put the best face he could on a rotten job of work done by his Government but I am afraid he is just as bland as the other members.

That kind of silly talk will not get you anywhere. Tell us about what you did.

I will not tell the Parliamentary Secretary what we did, but I can assure him the people will tell him what we did and what they did not, when the next general election comes, and the sooner it comes, the better. I do not wish to dwell on this further than to say that the people in rural areas were never so destitute for want of employment, for want of prices for their agricultural produce, and that the boat, the emigrant ship, is the only remedy for them. My advice to them is that so long as Fianna Fáil remain in office, it is foolish for them to stay at home in the hope that they will get something because it is the big shots in this country who are the only people getting anything from Fianna Fáil.

Mr. O'Sullivan rose.

I should point out to Deputies that the debate on the motion ends at 10.20 p.m. and the concluding speaker is entitled to 15 minutes. If I call Deputy O'Sullivan now, I can allow him only five minutes.

I shall give way as concluding speaker for a few minutes.

The Deputy is entitled to a quarter of an hour in which to conclude.

Does the debate not conclude at 10.24 p.m. instead of 10.20 p.m.?

Speaking as an Independent, can we have no say?

I am sorry. There is no time for any speakers from that side of the House.

This has been between the Parties all night and we would like to have a say.

I am calling Deputy O'Sullivan.

I am amazed by the remarks made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance in relation to this motion. The Labour members tabled the motion some time ago to direct the Government's attention to conditions in the country and to the desirability of the Government taking active action to cope with the situation then existing, and, even though the motion has been down for some considerable time, nothing has transpired in the meantime to mitigate in any way the demand that the Government take action to remedy the plight of the unemployed.

The Parliamentary Secretary falls back on a very unfortunate line of defence, that the number registered as unemployed is down compared with what it was some time ago. We all know that can be explained by the fact that emigration has increased, and it can also be demonstrated that the Government's figures reveal and prove conclusively that there are fewer people in employment to-day than there were three years ago. It is for that very reason we emphasise the necessity for the motion. The Government's statistics reveal that there are 9,000 fewer people employed in the activities to which the motion refers than there were some years ago and we want to say to the Parliamentary Secretary, and, through him, to his Government, that the complacency shown by his Taoiseach and senior Ministers to-day, was appalling in the face of existing conditions. They seem to be oblivious of the fact that people on small holdings in rural areas are completely ground down by the increase in the cost of living and the demands which it makes upon them.

The unemployment situation is such that it requires to be grappled with immediately and effectively, if more people are not to follow those who have already gone from our shores. I have not much time left and I only wish I had enough time to deal with the defence made by the Parliamentary Secretary for the abolition of the Local Authorities (Works) Act. Remarks have been made about the serious flooding created down-river when some small work has been carried out up-river.

We did not abolish the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

We know that to-day the rates are bearing the cost of special expenditure on the maintenance and improvement of roads that were ploughed up recently by flooding. These floods ploughed channels down through the middle of the roads and, if the Local Authorities (Works) Act were in operation, that situation need not have occurred.

It is also a fact that money was supposed to have been saved when the Local Authorities (Works) Act was stopped by not paying £5 a week to the men who got employment under it, but we, recently had to vote a Supplementary Estimate to enable the Minister for Social Welfare to pay £3.1.0 a week to these men to keep them idle in their homes. I say that money would have been better spent if they had been given £5 a week and the opportunity to do work which would be worth while and good. I do not know why the Government curtailed that Act since they assumed office but it has been removed. It was a wrong thing to do and it was done because there is a unanimous belief in the Parliamentary Secretary's Government that anything we in the inter-Party Government did should be undone. They have repealed the Local Authorities (Works) Act——

That is not correct.

——but among local authorities the Parliamentary Secretary's colleagues are the first to support any resolution demanding its reintroduction.

That is not correct.

The Parliamentary Secretary can direct his strictures at his own colleagues who are so vociferous outside this Chamber in seeking the reintroduction of the Act.

Why did you cut down on the operations of the Act?

Deputy O'Sullivan might be allowed to conclude.

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary——

Why did you put less and less money into it each year?

I want to say that the reintroduction of that Act would employ all the men now on the dole. They are the men who are left in Ireland and who cannot get employment here. They are the men whose sons have emigrated.

Is there no time allowed for Independents?

There is no time for any other Deputy in this debate.

There are 15,000 men unemployed in Dublin city.

I am calling on Deputy Kyne to conclude.

I think we should be allowed to say a few words.

According to Standing Orders, Deputy Kyne has 15 minutes to conclude.

There is an awful lot of unemployment in Dublin. All the rural members have spoken but no city Deputy.

It is not as bad in the city as it is in the country.

It is not as bad as it was in 1956 and 1957.

If the Parliamentary Secretary keeps repeating that, he will believe it himself.

I am only going by the figures published by the Central Statistics Office.

We know that.

You always used them when it suited you.

So do you.

I am making a fair comparison.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary and Deputy Corish would allow Deputy Kyne to conclude.

I should be very grateful. There is a story in the country that at one time during an election Daniel O'Connell went along to a road worker who asked him: "Mr. O'Connell, who are going to be the next Government?" and O'Connell replied: "Whoever gets in, you will still have to work." Unfortunately, listening to both sides of the argument this evening, I have come to the conclusion that whichever side get in, the unemployed are not going to get any work. The argument used by both sides seems to be that of how many more were unemployed when the other side were in office, but nobody seems to be the slightest bit interested in the undeniable fact that there are over 30,000 people in the country who cannot get a day's work. The Parliamentary Secretary has not referred to that beyond saying: "It was worse when you were in," and he implied that the Coalition Government went out of office because they could not give work to the unemployed. Perhaps that is right but does he think his side have done much better?

Considerably. We gave more money.

Do you really believe you have brought down unemployment between the time the previous Government was thrown out and now? I am not here to argue about Fianna Fáil election promises or how our Party have done. I did not stand up for the purpose of doing that. It is true there are 50,000 fewer employed at present—I am not talking about unemployment—than there were in 1956. That is no credit to anyone, either to the Labour Party, Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.

The Parliamentary Secretary knows that about 40,000 people leave this country each year because they cannot get employment either for themselves or for their sons and daughters. Is there anyone in his senses who will deny that? I did not stand up to taunt Fianna Fáil on their preelection promises or on what they have done about employment. Whatever other Deputies have done, I shall keep to the motion and ask the Parliamentary Secretary, as the responsible authority, to give extra money to the local authorities so that the unemployed, particularly those on unemployment assistance, will have an opportunity of securing employment within the next two or three months— the worst period of the year—to enable them to eke out an existence and be here when the wonderful things promised by the Government materialise. Is that unfair? Is that not a reasonable request?

I think the Parliamentary Secretary asked was there any motion down in 1956 or 1957. Any motion by whom —the Labour Party? We were a group in the Government then and why should we have a motion down? I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that pressure was put on the Cabinet to provide the extra money, and they did so. But there was no motion by Fianna Fáil.

We never heard of it.

How could you? I do not suppose the Cabinet went around telling you what they were doing.

We should have seen the money.

If you had examined the matter, you would. There was pressure by the Labour Party and I must say, with all due respect to Fine Gael and the other people comprising the inter-Party Government, that that was accepted as reasonable pressure and something that should be done. Now we are only repeating what we did previously when we were part of the Government and what we shall continue to do either in Opposition or in Government. We feel it is our job to do so.

As I say, I am not moving this motion for the purpose of discrediting the Government. All good luck to them if they can provide extra work. I and every member of my Party will applaud the Government for every extra factory giving constant employment, for every effort they make to provide employment. But it is no use telling the unemployed that there are fewer on the live register now than there have been at any time in the past. That will not buy any grub or provide any fire for the unemployed man. There is no use talking about what you did in the past.

The Parliamentary Secretary said this motion was down twelve months ago. That is true. It was through no fault of the Labour Party that we did not reach it. It was down exactly twelve months ago because of the fact that this was the month of all months when such a motion is appropriate. It states that from this month unemployment steadily increases. Private employment and local authority employment dwindles away because of the inclement weather and because tarring, hedge cutting, and most of the normal local authority and private enterprise employment dwindles away at this time. But the people must still exist until next April when the new money becomes available.

This motion is not an effort to condemn the Government. It is a motion on behalf of the unemployed, particularly those on unemployment assistance, asking the Government to provide extra money to enable these people to survive the hardships of the coming three, four or five months. Not only will that money give them sufficient to tide themselves and their families over these months, not only will it give them some little extra at Christmas, the time of good cheer, but it will enable them to get all the contributions on their unemployment cards to requalify them for unemployment benefit.

Did the Parliamentary Secretary think in these terms when speaking in this debate? I doubt it. He did not mention the unemployed in one way or another. He simply criticised the Opposition in relation to what they had done. He simply said "We gave them more than you gave them in your time." Surely that is not an answer? Is this problem to be taken seriously or not? I read where the Taoiseach said we have a long climb ahead. That may be so. I can quite accept that you cannot develop industry overnight or expect to get results inside a year or two years. But if the Taoiseach is correct, if there is a long climb ahead but that finally the country will attain its goal, how are the unemployed going to wait until that time? What will they do? Will they live on unemployment assistance or home assistance or will they emigrate to England? They emigrate in their thousands each year. I do not know about the situation in the Parliamentary Secretary's area in the north-west mentioned by Deputy Blowick, but I do know the situation in my own area of the south. There it is not a question of a man going away, but a question of a man going away and taking his family with him.

The Parliamentary Secretary must now, as those of us connected with the trade union movement know, that if you look for tradesmen in the building industry at present you just cannot get them. Why? Because they have emigrated and are not prepared to tear up their roots and come back here again unless they know they can be assured of continuity of employment. Tradesmen, plasterers, carpenters and so on are needed at present for a certain upsurge in the building trade but they are not available and will not be available. Who can blame them? Ordinary factory workers and labourers will emigrate unless something is done to keep them here. I am suggesting that the least that can be done is to provide whatever money is necessary to tide them over this emergency period.

I remember the last year of office of the inter-Party Government—the year the Parliamentary Secretary was talking about. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the Labour Party or somebody did not make any demands. I remember being spokesman at an inter-Party meeting in the Engineers' Hall in Dawson Street when I asked for £500,000, the very same figure Deputy Murphy asked for to-night. I do not think £500,000 extra is sufficient, but atleast it would be something. It is in that spirit that we put down the motion.

The time has expired.

I have a lot more to say but unfortunately the time has expired. I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to go back to his Government and ask them to accept the motion in the spirit in which it was put down, that is, for the sake of the unemployed people who are looking to us for work so that they may continue to live in their own country.

Surely the Deputy heard me point out that we have £877,000 earmarked for the relief of unemployment. Schemes are being notified to us only now. I do not accept that the motion is necessary. It is in accord with what we are doing.

I am putting the motion standing in the name of Deputy Norton and other members of the Labour Party. Those in favour of the motion will say "Tá" and those against "Níl".

Deputies

Tá.

Sílim go bhfuil buaite ar an dtairiscint. I think the motion is defeated.

Did you say "Sílim go bhfuil buaite ar an dtairiscint"? I think the motion is carried.

We heard nothing from that side of the House.

No one said "Níl".

We are doing what we are being asked to do in the motion. The motion refers to the certainty that unemployment will increase further and to accept the motion would be tantamount to agreeing that that is so.

I distinctly heard the Parliamentary Secretary say "Níl".

I put the motion in the usual form and, as usual in such cases, I declared that the motion was lost.

Then we should have a division—Votáil.

The division bells having been rung, An Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.

A Cheann Comhairle, may I put a question to you before you put this motion to a vote? I understand that when the motion was put from the Chair, there was no dissenting voice and that no person said "Níl" until the question was put. In these circumstances, I suggest that a division is unnecessary.

Do Fianna Fáil accept a vote of censure on themselves?

I am not speaking to the Deputy; I am addressing the Chair. It would be farcical to have a division when the House appears to be unanimous on the question.

In my hearing, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle put the motion and declared it defeated. When the question was put, we heard the word "Níl" from someone and no Deputy therefore will deny that the Chairman declared that the motion was defeated. I reminded him that this was what he was doing and that if he wanted to have the motion defeated properly, a division should be called. He had declared the motion defeated on a voice vote.

Is this an attempt to talk out the division?

The proceedings for a division have begun before the termination of the time fixed and, therefore, a division can be taken.

It must be on the records of the House that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle put the question and that the Parliamentary Secretary said "Níl".

I know that the procedure must be gone through. I am not trying to stop it.

Then why not go ahead and have the division?

Explain this to your Ard-Fheis.

The Deputy will not have an opportunity to explain anything to his own Ard-Fheis.

Wait and see about that.

I understand that a division has been challenged but not by this side of the House. I put it to you, Sir, that you should now ask what members are challenging a division on this motion.

I certify to you, Sir, that I heard the Leas-Cheann Comhairle declare definitely from the Chair: "Sílim go bhfuil buaite ar an dtairiscint—I think the motion is defeated." It was in the light of that declaration by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, after a voice vote, that a division was challenged to put matters right by way of a recorded vote.

That may be quite correct. I am not challenging that. What I am saying is that there is not, in my opinion, any person in this House challenging a division on the motion. If the motion is put from the Chair, we do not intend to vote against it.

Vote on it.

On a point of order, Sir, is it not the practice that when a motion is put from the Chair and declared defeated on a voice vote, the only way for those in favour of that motion to avoid that happening is to challenge a division and have it recorded in the ordinary way?

Yes, of course.

If there is any doubt about it, let a division be taken and let the Tánaiste and his colleagues vote against it.

I think that those who are in favour of a division should stand up.

Deputies on the Fine Gael and Labour Benches rose.

Now you know those who are in favour of the motion.

Is it the position that the Government are accepting the wording of the motion that there is a certainty that unemployment will increase still further?

Where is the Taoiseach?

With reference to the terms of the motion, Sir, may I point out that it was put down over 12 months ago and that it is now completely out-dated.

The Chair will put, the motion again and a division may take place if it is again called for.

When the question was put, should the doors not have been locked?

Several members have come into the House since then.

I shall put the motion again and let the Dáil decide upon it. The motion in the names of Deputy Norton and other members of the Labour Party is:

That in view of the present serious unemployment position and the certainty that unemployment will increase still further during the winter months, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should make money immediately available to local authorities for the relief of unemployment.

I am now putting that motion again to the House.

Interruptions.

I think the motion is carried.

Votáil.

Votáil.

I would ask you to put the usual question from the Chair —"How many members challenge a division?"

Several members stood.

That is your answer.

On the motion in the name of Deputy Norton and other members of the Labour Party, a division has been challenged: Deputies Kyne and M.P. Murphy have been nominated for the motion. Who are the tellers against? I must ask the House to appoint tellers "Níl". If there are none, I must declare the motion carried. Are there any tellers "Níl"?

There can be voluntary tellers to count the votes.

We can appoint tellers to count the votes and they will not necessarily be "Níl" voters.

Is it open to any member of the House to make a proposition?

May I put this point of order——

The Ceann Comhairle is on his feet and the Minister should sit down until the Ceann Comhairle sits down.

Interruptions.

May I put the point that those who act as tellers against the motion should have their names recorded as voting against the motion.

The Minister wants it every way.

Might I put this proposition? I understood the Chair asked the House to appoint "Níl" tellers. If it is open to the House to make a proposition, I propose that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste be appointed as tellers.

The tellers must come from the side for which they are telling.

The Labour Party will provide two tellers for the purpose of recording those who want to vote "Níl".

That will not suffice. They must be voters against the motion.

Interruptions.

If two tellers could vote in the opposite direction, the business of the Dáil would be reduced to a farce.

That has been done already and the Tánaiste did so.

I am declaring the motion carried.

What has happened to the Taoiseach?

Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3rd November, 1960.
Top
Share