asked the Minister for Defence what objections he had to the programme on civil defence which was to have been broadcast by Radio Éireann on Sunday, 23rd October, 1960.
27.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Defence Programme Broadcast.
26.
asked the Minister for Defence the circumstances under which he considered that the broadcast of a programme on civil defence which was to have been broadcast by Radio Éireann on Sunday, 23rd October, 1960, should not be made.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions 26 and 27 together.
The reply to both questions is contained in a statement issued on 24 Deireadh Fómhair, 1960, by the Búró um Eolas Stáit on behalf of my Department. The statement was as follows:—
"Some weeks ago Mr. Mac Aonghusa, An Comhlacht Taifeadadh, approached the Department of Defence with a proposal for a radio broadcast feature on Civil Defence to be produced by him and asked for the Department's co-operation. This co-operation was readily given by arranging for interviews with the Department's civil defence officials and for statements by the President and the Minister for Defence. Participation by the Dublin Civil Defence Services and volunteers was also arranged.
The arrangement was that when Mr. Mac Aonghusa had edited the feature in the form in which he intended it should be broadcast, representatives of the Department would be given an opportunity of hearing the recording so that there could be mutual agreement on its content. Due it is understood to the time factor, Mr. Mac Aonghusa submitted the final recording direct to Radio Éireann without reference to the Department of Defence. With Mr. Mac Aonghusa's prior argreement, however, the Minister for Defence heard the recording at Radio Éireann on Saturday last. While satisfied that generally speaking the feature had been excellently produced, the Minister felt that it would not be appropriate that the President and himself should be associated with certain statements included by Mr. Mac Aonghusa and of which they were not aware when making their recordings. He noted that an important part of the case for Civil Defence which had been recorded in one of the interviews had been omitted. He considered, therefore, that the broadcast of the feature in the form presented should not be made. He was quite willing to have the feature altered in agreement with the producer. As time did not, however, then permit of any alteration being made, the Radio Éireann Authorities decided that the feature would not be accepted for broadcasting on Sunday, 23rd instant, as had been intended."
Does the Minister consider that an objection by him is sufficient to justify the cancellation of a broadcast by Radio Éireann?
This was a case of a programme which had, in fact, been supplied by us at the request of this producer and on a definite undertaking given at the outset, and repeated on a number of occasions in the interim during which the programme was being prepared—an undertaking which was not honoured. The position was that the Department of Defence, and subsequently I myself, drew the attention of the Radio Éireann authorities to the fact that the undertaking given had not been honoured and that the programme as presented was not one that we were prepared to agree to.
Is the Minister not aware, and will he not now admit, that the producer of this programme intimated to the officials of his Department that there would be no censorship of the programme, that the producer was entirely responsible for it, and that the officials of his Department agreed that there would be no question of censorship?
There was certainly no question of censorship. The fact was that this man approached the Department of Defence and asked them to co-operate with him in producing the programme. It was quite clear that what he wanted was, in fact, that a number of items should be provided by, or arranged by, the Department and he would link those together and present them as a programme. The Department agreed to do this on a definite undertaking given by him, and repeated by him on a number of occasions, that the programme, as he intended to present it, would be presented to the officials of the Department of Defence for mutual agreement on it before it would be submitted to Radio Eireann. In the event, the producer attempted to slip a mutilated and doctored version——
That is a scandalous allegation.
——of the programme through without honouring the agreement he had made with the Department of Defence.
Deputies Dr. Browne, Corish and Ryan rose.
Deputy Ryan.
Mr. Ryan
Is the Minister not aware that the practice of all reputable journalists, radio and otherwise, in matters of this nature is that they reserve the sole right to edit and determine the final programme? Is it not true to say that the Minister is wrong in saying that Radio Eireann decided that the programme was unfit to be published? Is it not a fact that the decision was an individual decision of his own made against the advice of those in a position to judge in Radio Eireann and elsewhere? I should also like to ask the Minister now to admit——
Speech.
Shut up. Why do you not make a speech yourself?
Mr. Ryan
——that it was made clear at all times to the officials of the Department of Defence that while, as a matter of courtesy, they would be, and were in fact, allowed to hear the programme, censorship would not be permitted. Finally, arising out of the Minister's statement on Radio Éireann, does he not think, in view of the fact that the producer was prevented from expressing his point of view because of the newspaper strike, it was a dirty, low-down, blackleg effort on his part to go on the radio for 24 hours making an ex parte attack upon one of our most reputable radio journalists?
That is a separate question. I shall allow all the Supplementary Questions to be asked before the Minister replies.
Would the Minister not think it fair when he is soliciting volunteers for civil defence that it should be made clear to the public that World War III will almost inevitably mean the use of H bombs; that there is virtually no defence against the H bomb; that, if there is any defence against the H bomb, it involves the provision of deep, costly, reinforced, steel shelters; that, since the Government show no indications that they intend to provide these shelters for the whole population, there will be no survivors from World War III, in which case the need for civil defence workers does not arise? This is a waste of time, a waste of money, and a waste of civil defence. There is no defence. The Minister is fooling himself. It is a waste of money. It is a fraud.
Is the Minister aware that there was no objection other than the objections made by him, or on his behalf, to the broadcasting of this programme? Is he further aware that Radio Éireann is quite willing at the present moment to broadcast the programme in the form in which it was supplied on that Saturday morning? In those circumstances, will the Minister at this stage withdraw the ban imposed by him on a broacast by an alleged independent authority?
Where are the deep shelters?
I am aware an undertaking was given. The bulk of the programme was supplied by the Department of Defence. It was obtained from them under false pretences.
Deputies
Shame, shame.
It is a scandalous thing for a Minister to say that in this House.
When the Radio Éireann authorities were made aware of what had happened, the manner in which the material had been obtained, and the manner in which it had been mutilated—
Deputies
Shame.
——by the producer, the Radio Eireann authorities decided not to accept the feature for broadcasting at that time.
Mr. Ryan
They did not decide. The Minister decided.
Why did the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs not say that? Because he knows the Minister for Defence is not telling the truth.
What is objectionable is the fact that the undertaking was dishonoured.
How?
Portion of the script was put in without our knowledge and in an underhand way, without letting us know.
What portion?
Also, the most important part of the case for civil defence made by the Director of Civil Defence was surreptitiously deleted from the programme by this producer. I informed the Radio Éireann authorities of the manner in which this material had been mishandled by the producer and of the fact that the undertaking given had been dishonoured by him, and they decided——
Mr. Ryan
They did not decide.
——not to accept the programme.
Mr. Ryan
It was the Minister who decided. What is more, he had no authority to decide—no authority.
He wants everybody to be a "yes-man".
Before you pass from——
We know the Minister for Health made a mess of things last night, and he is now trying to rehabilitate himself.
I am not allowing any further questions on this matter.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply——
I am not allowing any further supplementary questions. I told the House the Minister was making a final reply to the Question and I am not allowing any further questions.
The Deputy is asking for permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment. Surely he is entitled to do that.
With your permission, I desire to raise the subject matter of this Question on the Adjournment, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply.
I shall communicate with the Deputy in the course of the afternoon.
Before you pass from the Question, may I call your attention to the fact that Deputy Ryan referred to the Minister for Defence as "a blackleg" and I would ask that that be struck from the record?
Arising out of the Tánaiste's interjection, will the Minister for Defence repeat the statements he has made in this House outside the House without privilege?
I have no knowledge——
He said the producer doctored the script.
That is a fact.
Say it outside and we shall see who is telling the truth.
Order!