Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Nov 1960

Vol. 184 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Civil Defence Programme Broadcast.

Mr. Larkin

In Question No. 26 on today's Order Paper, I asked the Minister for Defence what objection he had to a radio programme on Civil Defence, and the replies to the Question were so unsatisfactory that I asked your permission, Sir, to raise this matter on the Adjournment. The Minister indicated quite clearly that as a result of representations by him a decision had been made to ban a broadcast on Civil Defence which had been prepared by Proinsias MacAonghusa, a radio programme contractor and independent radio producer.

The idea of having a programme on Civil Defence was initiated by Mr. MacAonghusa, who is well known in this country as a programme contractor and producer. As far back as August, he contacted a Mr. Fay of the Department of Defence and Mr. Francis McManus of the General Features Office of Radio Éireann suggesting that a programme on Civil Defence should be produced by him and broadcast by Radio Éireann. The title of the proposed programme was "Civil Defence, 1960." The suggestion was acknowledged and subsequently it was agreed in principle. Discussions took place between Mr. MacAonghusa and Mr. McManus on the layout of the programme and it was agreed it should take place on Sunday, October 23rd, 1960.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Deputy quoting?

Mr. MacEntee

He is reading, Sir.

Mr. Larkin

I am reading from notes. Subsequently, on the suggestion of Mr. McManus, Mr. MacAonghusa was in touch with Mr. Fay representing the Department of Defence, and discussions took place with regard to the presentation of this programme. At the very commencement of the proceedings it was made plain by the producer of the programme that there would be no question, as far as he was concerned, of censorship of the broadcast, that he was an independent producer and that in accordance with practice the producer of these programmes would not be prepared to accept censorship in these particular programmes; while it would be quite proper and reasonable to operate on the basis of consultations as regards the editing of the programme, the actual content would be a matter which would be left to the discretion of the producer. This was made quite clear and was accepted by Mr. Fay on the initial occasion when these matters were discussed.

Subsequently discussions took place regarding the personnel of the programme and the manner in which the programme would be organised. As it was a question of the civil defence of the country, the authorities that should be approached in connection with the programme were also discussed. I understand that originally it was thought by Mr. Mac Aonghusa that the Minister for External Affairs might be interested. The suggestion has been made that a civil defence——

Mr. MacEntee

Perhaps the Deputy will forgive me; I may be under a misapprehension. I understood the Deputy to say that the producer required a guarantee that this script would not be censored. Now, that raises a doubt in my mind as to whether it was the producer who was buying time or Radio Éireann which was to pay the producer. Perhaps the Deputy would let me know.

Mr. Larkin

There was an interview between the producer and Mr. Fay who does not represent Radio Éireann and who I understand is connected with the Department of Defence and the producer would not be prepared to accept censorship.

Mr. MacEntee

I am sorry; I thought it was Radio Éireann.

Mr. Larkin

Arrangements were then made—it is not necessary to go into all the details—to have recordings made by officers of the Civil Defence Organisation. The Minister for Defence was consulted and indicated that he was prepared to broadcast, to be included in the programme. A contract was made and the President of Ireland also indicated that he was willing to be associated with the programme and to make a statement which would come in at the end of the programme.

The technical problem of arranging for the preparation and presentation of the programme, like all other such programmes, was very difficult and complex. One of the problems arose from the fact that the complete recording of the statements of the parties concerned and interviews between Mr. Mac Aonghusa and members of the civil defence movement here in Dublin involved a total period of something over an hour and thirty minutes.

This, Mr. Mac Aonghusa was informed, was too long and it was necessary, therefore, that he should reduce the content by editing it. This is a normal procedure. Having gone through the various steps of editing and preparing a final recording for Radio Éireann he was advised on Thursday, October 20th—Radio Éireann having received the final recording—that it was completely acceptable to them. That was on Thursday, October 20th. However, on the following day, Friday, Mr. Fay contacted Radio Éireann and indicated, on behalf of the Minister for Defence, that he had certain objections to make. He stated that the broadcast was not satisfactory to the Minister and he insisted that arrangements be made to have the recording played over on the Saturday morning.

During all this period, from August, through September and into October, officials of Radio Éireann were dealing and were familiar with the developments taking place and the preparations that were being made. At no stage was any objection made by Radio Éireann except in regard to the query about the programme, as originally conceived, being too long. However, on the Friday this question was brought to their attention and, to the surprise and consternation of those who had been dealing with this matter, the Minister for Defence appeared to take exception to the programme being played without his hearing it and without his permission being given. On Saturday morning arrangements were made to have the programme played in Radio Éireann to facilitate the Minister for Defence, who attended with officers of his Department.

At this stage the Minister indicated that he had objections to the programme being broadcast. Members of Radio Éireann, leading members, programme directors, and acting directors, etc., were present and at no stage had they indicated that there was anything wrong in their view with this programme. It appears that the only point raised in connection with this was by the Minister and on the basis that people might have a view other than the view he holds on the question of the value in modern times of civil defence.

Mr. MacEntee

The view of this House, which has been financing the organisation of a Civil Defence Corps.

Mr. Lindsay

Sponsored by the Government.

Mr. MacEntee

By this House. There was no division on that.

Mr. Larkin

The broadcast transcript of the programme was produced and presented by Proinsias Mac Aonghusa and due to be broadcast by Radio Éireann on Sunday, October 23rd at 7.45 p.m. It was objected to by the Minister for Defence on Saturday, 22nd October. No objection was lodged by any other person and it appears that following the Minister's visit to Radio Éireann, accompanied by the Secretary of the Department and other people, at about 12.35 p.m. on Saturday afternoon, the decision was taken that the programme should not be proceeded with.

The Minister is entitled to express his opinion and Deputies are entitled to express theirs. The people outside this House are entitled to know, on this very important question of Civil Defence particularly in case of the use of nuclear armaments, what their position is and what the future may hold for them. I raise this matter only on the basis that the intelligent people of our cities and countryside are entitled to have whatever information and views are available placed before them and are entitled to use their own intelligence——

Mr. K. Boland

Of course they are.

Mr. Lindsay

If allowed to use it.

Mr. Larkin

In the transcript, if I may be permitted to quote from it——

Mr. K. Boland

Quote from what?

Mr. Larkin

The transcript of the proposed broadcast.

Mr. K. Boland

May I ask where this transcript came from and how the Deputy can substantiate his statement that it is the transcript of the proposed broadcast?

Mr. Lindsay

That is not necessary.

Mr. Larkin

I do not think that would be necessary——

Mr. K. Boland

I heard two versions of it played over to me, two different versions that bore only a superficial resemblance to each other. I do not know whether the document which Deputy Larkin has bears any relation to one or other of these——

Mr. Lindsay

I am sure Deputy Larkin's word is just as good as the Minister's.

Mr. K. Boland

I am sure Deputy Larkin did not hear the recording. If it was possible to doctor the tape on one occasion, it could be doctored again.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister is taking advantage of his position in this House to accuse a person outside the House and not under the protection of the House of a certain action. I think he should repeat the accusation outside the House.

Mr. MacEntee

I understand Deputy Larkin is proposing to quote from a document. Is he not required to lay that document on the Table of the House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think that is not necessary in the case of Deputies quoting from non-official documents. It is only when a Minister quotes from an official document that it is necessary for him to place it on the Table of the House.

Mr. MacEntee

May I put it this way? This has now become an official document, in that it purports to be the transcript of a document handed in to Radio Éireann for broadcasting purposes.

Mr. Lindsay

Does the Tánaiste now accept that this is the transcript that was to be broadcast?

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has it also?

Mr. Lindsay

Yes, and this is a verbatim account of what I heard.

Mr. Larkin

Have I the permission of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to quote from this document?

Mr. MacEntee

Certainly, there is no objection.

Mr. Larkin

This appears to be the only paragraph in it that appears to cause the Minister for Defence some perturbation. This is paragraph 2 which reads:

R.A.S. Crawford, Senior Technical Officer, Civil Defence Organisation:—

If a one megation nuclear weapon fifty times as powerful as the Hiroshima atom bomb had fallen near O'Connell Bridge, Dublin, very briefly conditions might be something like this. First of all a huge fireball nearly a mile and a half in diameter would be formed, and would shoot upwards into the sky, at the same time emitting a tremendous flash of light and heat, which would last for several seconds. This could ignite inflammable materials about five miles away. Then a huge mushroom cloud with a flat top would be formed. It might be about 18 miles across and about 13 miles high, and a crater would be left in the ground which might be more than a quarter of a mile wide and a hundred feet deep. Now let's consider the blast effects. Up to one and a half miles from O'Connell Bridge nearly all buildings would be completely demolished and most people in that area would be dead. Now that one and a half mile ring would extend as far as Drumcondra, King's Bridge, Ranelagh and Ringsend. From one and a half miles to about six miles there would be heavy damage to buildings and a large number of people would be trapped in them and would require to be rescued. The heat flash would start many fires in this area and people who were exposed to this heat flash might get their skin charred or blistered. This circle would extend to Collinstown, Clondalkin, Sandyford, Dun Laoire and Baldoyle.

That is part of the proposed programme and commenting on it Proinsias MacAonghusa says:

This is the age of the nuclear bomb. That horrifying noise you heard a few minutes ago was that of an Hydrogen Bomb exploding. R.A.S. Crawford, senior technical officer of the Irish Civil Defence Service, has described what might happen if an H-Bomb were to fall in the centre of Dublin City. In fact the effects might be far greater than those he described and it is highly unlikely that they would be less severe. Britain has the Bomb; France is well on the way to producing one; the Soviet Union is believed to have sufficient Bombs to wipe Great Britain and most of the United States practically off the face of the earth; America has enough H-Bombs to blow up the world. Other countries have the knowledge and materials to produce the weapon. Without doubt, if war were to break out, whether by design or accident, the world as we know it would be destroyed. But men might live on. Some believe that the Eskimos in the North would survive and that the nomadic tribes of the North African desert would live. The rest of mankind would die a fearful, horrible death. You in Galway, you in, Cork, you in Antrim, you in Dublin. You and your children, your friends, your relations, your neighbours. All you innocent people will die frightful deaths if America attacks Russia, if Russia attacks America, if they accidentally attack one another.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

As the Deputy's time has now expired, I must call on the Minister to conclude.

Mr. Larkin

As I stated, the broadcast was banned by the Minister and I put it to him that was a completely wrong thing to do, to interfere with Radio Éireann and the producer in this matter.

Minister for Defence (Mr. K. Boland)

I think the statement issued by the Government Information Bureau adequately explained what happened in regard to this matter. Since some Deputies are prepared to take the view of the sensational English Sunday newspapers I want to explain what happened in somewhat more detail in the short time at my disposal.

Some time ago, my Department were approached by Mr. Mac Aonghusa with the request that they should co-operate with him in the production of a radio feature on Civil Defence. He explained that he is a person who is engaged in the business of producing radio programmes and selling them to Radio Éireann. Naturally, since my Department is charged by the Government with the organisation of Civil Defence, they wanted to know some more details in regard to the nature of the proposed programme and, as Deputy Larkin has said, the producer presented the Director of Civil Defence with an outline of the proposed programme. I have that outline here but I do not think it is necessary to read it. I think, however, it is clear from it that what the producer had in mind was that a number of items would be supplied by my Department or arranged by the Department of Defence and that they would be linked together by him and presented to Radio Éireann.

Following the friendly conversation they had with the producer, my Department believed in his bona fides; that he was genuine and that this was what he intended to do; but before agreeing to co-operate, the Department insisted on the condition that the final programme to be presented would be submitted to the Department in the first instance and that there should be mutual agreement on its content before it was submitted to Radio Éireann.

I might as well say that there was no question of censorship. It was a question of the producer and the civil defence section of my Department co-operating in the production of a programme and this condition was accepted from the outset by the producer. Not alone that, but in the period during which the programme was being prepared he was reminded of this agreement on a number of occasions by the officers of my Department and on each occasion the excuse he gave for not bringing it in was that the programme was not ready. There was no suggestion that he intended to dishonour his undertaking but, from statements he made subsequently, it is quite clear that that is what he intended to do from the very start.

In regard to the circumstances in which the effort made to circumvent the arrangement to submit it to my Department for agreement before submitting it to Radio Éireann was forestalled, it is quite clear that there was no question of censorship or banning of any programme of Radio Éireann by me or any other Minister. What happened was that having eventually heard the programme in Radio Éireann, not having heard it in my own office as had been promised, but having succeeded in hearing it in Radio Éireann, I pointed out to the Radio Éireann authorities who were present, the obvious fact that 90 per cent. of the programme had been supplied by the Department of Defence and this had been done on the undertaking that there would be mutual agreement on the content of the completed programme before it was submitted to Radio Éireann.

I also pointed out that this undertaking, which had been freely given by the producer, had not been carried out and that now when, in fact, we had succeeded in hearing the programme, we found we could not agree to it for a number of reasons—in the first place, the fact that these allegations against the justification for and the sincerity of Civil Defence which were to be made at the outset of the programme had been concealed from the officers of my Department.

Mr. Lindsay

"Concealed" is a very strong word.

Mr. K. Boland

In fact, before I recorded my own statement Mr. Mac Aonghusa's assistant played over to me what he represented as the portion of the programme that would precede my statement and, in his presence, the Director of Civil Defence outlined to me what he had been informed by Mr. Mac Aonghusa would follow my contribution. The statement I subsequently recorded was naturally based on the assurance that I had been made aware of the nature of the rest of the programme.

We are not afraid to answer criticisms of Civil Defence; we know there is a contrary point of view and if I had been aware that the contrary point of view was the one that would be given emphasis in the programme, naturally, in agreeing to take part, I would have answered that in the statement I made. In addition to that I pointed out that the case for Civil Defence, which had been very well made by the Director of Civil Defence, had been interfered with by the producer, not alone without authority, but against the direct and definite instructions that were given. Certain points had been omitted which the Director of Civil Defence and I myself had said were essential for the presentation of our case and in respect of which the producer gave a specific undertaking that these three important points would be included. However, these were omitted, and deliberately omitted, in order to make the case made by the Director of Civil Defence as weak as possible.

I pointed out to the Radio Éireann authorities that not alone were we not allowed to hear the programme but that the material supplied had been manhandled in this unscrupulous and deceitful way, and the very fact that this was done had been concealed from us.

Mr. Lindsay

What were the three important points left out?

Mr. K. Boland

There were, in addition to that, the comments on the interviews with Dublin civil defence volunteers, which constituted a sneer at the motives of those who joined the civil defence organisation.

Mr. Lindsay

That is not the answer to my question.

Mr. K. Boland

When we pointed out that we had in fact supplied this programme to the producer under the agreement that it would be submitted to us before being submitted to Radio Éireann, that the material supplied by us had been mutilated and doctored without authority by the producer and that this propaganda designed to promote a feeling of hopelessness and despair that is entirely foreign to our people had been surreptitiously inserted into the programme by the producer, the Radio Éireann authorities decided they would not accept the programme for broadcasting since the producer had failed to honour his undertaking and submit an agreed programme.

Mr. Lindsay

Did Radio Éireann pay for this programme?

Mr. K. Boland

They did not accept the programme.

Mr. Lindsay

Did they pay for it?

Mr. K. Boland

They did not pay for it. Why should they pay for it when they did not accept it?

Mr. Lindsay

They did pay for it. That shows just how much the Minister knows about Radio Éireann.

Mr. K. Boland

I know nothing about Radio Éireann.

Mr. Lindsay

The Minister knew enough when he bullied them.

Mr. K. Boland

When the Department of Defence was first approached by this producer seeking co-operation in a civil defence programme he stated to the Department that he had got the idea because he had been so impressed by the speech and tUachtarán made on the subject of Civil Defence to Muintir na Tíre. He said he got the idea that a follow-up programme on similar lines would do a great amount of good and that he proposed, with our assistance, to put that idea into effect. He has since put it on record that, before the approached my Department at all, he was firmly of the opinion that Civil Defence was a gigantic fraud in which, apparently, every Government in the world is implicated. Obviously, then, he had a different type of programme from that which he described to us in mind from the very start and it is obvious that it was always his intention to slip this doctored programme through in breach of his definite and repeated agreement with my Department. In other words, it is obvious, as I said earlier today, that he obtained the material for his programme from the Department of Defence under false pretences and with the deliberate intention of maltreating it in the way in which he did maltreat it in order to suit his own purposes and the purposes of those people with whom he is associated.

Mr. Lindsay

The Minister ought to give all the circumstances. He said there were three points but never gave them.

Mr. K. Boland

I said he deliberately omitted the most important part of the case for Civil Defence which was made by the Director of Civil Defence.

Mr. Lindsay

What was that?

Mr. K. Boland

If I did not say it before I say it now, that he substituted statements for questions and I have said he inserted material which he concealed from us and which, of course, if we knew it was going to be inserted into the programme, would have been answered by me and by the Director of Civil Defence. It is quite obvious that we, being charged with the organisation of Civil Defence, would not take part in a programme unless we felt the case that we had to make for Civil Defence would be given fair play. Surely no Deputy will believe that any Government Department, any experienced civil servant, would place himself completely in the hands of a person such as this without getting some assurances as to the manner in which the material, which was arranged for and supplied by my Department, would be handled?

That is a statement of what happened. I think it is quite obvious to anybody that the material was obtained from the Department of Defence under false pretences and that an effort was made by the producer to slip the programme through in breach of the definite undertaking which he gave to the Department before we agreed to supply him with the material for the programme which he proposed to sell to Radio Éireann when he had it completed.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 9th November, 1960.