Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Dec 1960

Vol. 185 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Dairy Produce Marketing Bill, 1960—Financial Resolution.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Smith)

I move:

That it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the payment to An Bord Bainne of a levy on milk of such amount as may be fixed by An Bord Bainne by order and of levies on butter of such amounts as may be fixed by An Bord Bainne, with the consent of the Minister for Agriculture, by order, and

(b) the charge, levy and payment on the grant by the Minister for Agriculture of any licence for the exportation or the importation of milk or milk products of such (if any) fee as the Minister for Agriculture, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, shall from time to time direct,

under any Act of the present session to make further provision in relation to the marketing of milk and milk products and the improvement and development of such marketing, for those purposes to provide for the establishment of a board to be called An Bord Bainne and to define its functions, to provide for the payment of levies on milk and butter to An Bord Bainne, to amend the Dairy Produce (Price Stabilisation) Acts, 1935 to 1956, and to provide for other matters connected with the matters aforesaid.

Mr. Dillon

Could the Minister tell us what are the levies contemplated under this resolution?

Mr. Smith

The ordinary levies which have always been in existence for the cold storage of butter.

Mr. Dillon

Paragraph (b) refers to "the charge, levy and payment on the grant by the Minister for Agriculture of any licence for the exportation or the importation of milk products" and so forth. Can a charge or levy be made under this resolution to meet the cost of any export subsidy, if it be prescribed in respect of milk or other dairy produce?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is so.

Mr. Smith

The Financial Resolution authorises the imposition under the Bill of charges on the public by way of levy on butter and cheese for export and import licences.

Mr. Dillon

Is it under this that a levy can be made on milk to meet the cost or part of the cost of an export subsidy on butter?

Mr. Smith

No, under the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

This is the Financial Resolution. This gives the power to make the levies so far as I understand.

Mr. Smith

No, it does not.

Mr. Dillon

It does. "It is expedient to authorise——"

Mr. Smith

It is a general coverage for what is provided for in the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

This is the actual Resolution that authorises a charge or levy to be made but whether that charge or levy is to be made by the Milk Board or not, I cannot quite clearly determine on the terms of the Resolution. Two questions arise on this. Under the normal procedure, the user of milk in this country falls into two broad categories. One is domestic consumption as liquid milk and the other is for processing into butter, dried milk, cheese, etc. Is there any power in this Financial Resolution for the Minister or the Board to make a levy on milk sold for human consumption on the home market?

Mr. Smith

No.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister says "No" but I would ask him to look at the terms of his own Resolution. It says: "under any Act of the present session to make further provision in relation to the marketing of milk and milk products." We want to be clear whether this Resolution authorises the levying of a levy on liquid milk.

Mr. Smith

Supplied to creameries, no.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Where is that stated?

Mr. Dillon

The Resolution reads:

That it is expedient to authorise—

(b) the charge, levy and payment ... of any licence for the exportation or the importation of milk or milk products of such (if any) fee as a Minister for Agriculture, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, shall from time to time direct, under any Act of the present session to make further provision in relation to the marketing of milk.

Mr. Smith

This is the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

Quite.

Mr. Smith

This is the only measure under which that can be done.

Mr. Dillon

Why do we refer to the marketing of milk? The only marketing of milk that I know goes on in this country is the sale of milk. This is in the text of the Financial Resolution we are now considering, No. 5 on the Order Paper. You have paragraphs (a) and (b) and then the text continues:

under any Act of the present session to make further provision in relation to the marketing of milk and milk products and the improvement and development of such marketing.

I should like to be clear as to what these levies mean. Can they attach to all milk, including milk sold in the Dublin Milk Board area, the Cork Milk Board area and other areas where liquid milk is sold for human consumption? That is one question.

The second question I want to ask is this. Can the Minister give us any indication of the probable or contemplated size of the levy? It may be that the Minister is obliged to say: "No, I have not the faintest notion" but at present there is a levy, I think, of 1d. per gallon on milk to meet one-third of the cost of an export subsidy on butter, the Government contributing two-thirds of the cost.

I should like to know whether, under the procedure envisaged in this Financial Resolution, it is possible for that levy to grow and, if so, is there any upward limit on the levy which can be made on creamery milk as it stands today at 1d.? Can this Resolution raise it to 2d. next year and 3d. the year after? Or does the Minister intend to say that the purpose of this Resolution is to maintain the existing levy of 1d. per gallon and that there is no prospect of it rising any further? I see nothing in this Financial Resolution which limits the levy but I do see in the Resolution the possibility of making this levy 2d., 3d., or 4d. as the quantity of milk converted into butter, cheese or dried milk for export expands.

We ought to be clear in our minds before we pass a Resolution of this kind what it means. It is for that reason I raise this matter on two distinct issues. Is it possible to attach the levy to all milk that is creamery milk and milk for human consumption in liquid form on the domestic market? That is one question. The second question is this. Is there any upward limit on the size of the levy which could be made on each gallon of milk under this Financial Resolution or are we to anticipate that the levy which now stands at 1d. per gallon is likely to be increased to 2d., 3d. or even 4d. a gallon as the quantity manufactured and exported tends to expand?

Mr. Smith

There is no levy being collected at the moment. No levy has been collected, I think, since July, 1959. In the second place, it is not the intention and there is no provision made in the Bill for the collection of a levy on creamery milk. Thirdly, the contribution that the Board may call upon the milk suppliers to creameries to make will be influenced from time to time by two factors. One is that provided here where the State will meet two-thirds of the cost of any losses. That, of course, means that one-third will be met by the producers. The amount of that one-third, or whether there would be any deduction at all, would depend upon the profitability and the price that could be obtained for milk products, whatever milk products we had to export.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

This Financial Resolution asks us to authorise moneys to establish this Board. We know that the marketing of milk and milk products has given rise to several discussions in this House from time to time. I believe that these discussions were of a very useful nature. It seems to me that the Minister for Agriculture is now taking steps to ensure that we shall hear very little more in this House about the price of milk or milk products, which is such a vital question to the economy of this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

The price of milk does not arise on this Financial Resolution.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Excuse me, Sir. We are dealing with the exportation and importation of milk and milk prices and these are vital issues.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are dealing with the Financial Resolution.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

We are dealing with the Financial Resolution to set up this board. I claim that the tendency of Governments, and particularly of the present Government, is that when difficulties arise they get over them by setting up a board.

An Ceann Comhairle

The setting up of a board does not arise on the Financial Resolution. It is the levy that arises.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

If you feel, Sir, that the board which will be authorised to collect the levy——

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not feel anything about it at all. I only feel that this is the Financial Resolution.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

If my remarks are inappropriate at this stage, I shall wait until we are dealing with the relevant section.

Mr. Russell

On the point raised by Deputy Dillon, would the Minister clarify my mind, as he did not do so fully? Is the position that the board will collect a levy on milk for consumption inside the country?

Mr. Smith

No.

Mr. Russell

It is completely related to milk collected for export products?

Mr. Smith

That is right.

Mr. O'Sullivan

May I ask the Minister whether the sum that will be collected by way of levy may be applied solely towards the subsidisation of surplus butter and milk products for export, or is it the intention that any of this amount would be applied towards the subsidisation of butter for consumption at home?

Mr. Smith

For export.

Mr. Russell

For export only?

Mr. Wycherley

Does the Minister think that the farmers who produce the milk are sufficiently safeguarded under this measure, and that they will not be exploited, as Deputy Dillon says, by an increase in the levy?

Mr. Dillon

That is the purpose of An Bord Bainne. Is it not perfectly obvious from what the Minister said that, as the export of butter expands, if prices remain substantially what they are today on the foreign market, the Milk Board will increase the levy on creamery milk? That is the purpose of the powers conferred by this Financial Resolution.

Mr. Russell

I should like to make another observation. Is it the position that the board will collect levies from any other sources except from the producers?

Mr. Smith

No.

Mr. Russell

It is possible that an organisation like the Dairy Disposals factory in Limerick might indirectly make substantial profits at the expense of the farmers and, at the same time, the farmers would be called on to pay a levy on the export of milk products. That could happen; I am not saying it will happen. I am suggesting that the profits of the Dairy Disposals factory in Limerick could be used for the purpose of assisting in the export of milk products.

Mr. Smith

Why should a board comprised, as this one is, almost entirely on lines recommended by the advisory committee, want to start playing ducks and drakes with the people they represent, as Deputy Wycherley seems to fear?

Mr. O'Sullivan

Did I hear the Minister say "Comprised as recommended by the advisory committee"?

Mr. Smith

Almost entirely.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Would the Minister not agree there are radical changes as between the recommendations and the proposals in the Bill?

Mr. Smith

No.

Mr. O'Sullivan

In view of the downward trend in home production in consequence of the increased prices, how can the Minister explain the provision of subsidies to people outside the country who consume Irish butter at the expense of the producers at home?

Mr. Smith

The price at home is entirely a question for the Government of the day.

Mr. Wycherley

Are we entitled to ask questions in the Dáil about the activities of this board?

Mr. Smith

That is a question I——

Mr. Wycherley

The Minister knows the answer to that question.

Mr. Smith

The rules of the House will determine that point.

Mr. Dillon

Something will be found to prevent us.

Mr. Wycherley

Before the Financial Resolution is passed, I should like to know if the people who provide the money will be entitled to ask Questions in the House with regard to the spending of the money? The House should be perfectly entitled to ask questions if they disagree with the manner in which the board are carrying out their duties.

Question put and agreed to.

Financial Resolution reported and agreed to.