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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Mar 1961

Vol. 187 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

Last night I dealt mainly with the industrial position in my constituency and in the surrounding districts. I can say that with the exception of the town of Fermoy, the other towns in the constituency have no unemployment. I should like to congratulate the Taoiseach and the Ministers concerned in having brought about that satisfactory position. They have eased the unemployment position not only in my constituency but in others as well from which unemployed people used to come to my constituency looking for work.

There are in that respect a couple of things to which I should like to call notice. I should like to ask if there is any hope of ending the tide of emigration. The solution lies in the provision of industries which would give at least as good working conditions as are obtainable across the water. It would also be necessary to have industrial expansion at least every ten years and to bring in still more new industries to all areas to give employment to young people who are now just growing up. If we are to stem emigration that is the line we must follow. I am glad that the time has arrived when young men in this country, instead of looking abroad for employment, instead of running away to England, are able to find decent employment at home.

The position in regard to agriculture is not so happy. The time has arrived when the Minister for Finance and the Government will have to look at the question of rates on agricultural land from an entirely new standpoint. The prices for agricultural produce have remained either static or very much reduced over the past few years. In 1952 and 1953 the price of feeding barely was around 48/- per barrel; to-day it is 38/- per barrel. The price of wheat dropped from 82/6 per barrel to 70/- per barrel. As a result of the bovine T.B. eradication scheme there is a cloud over the livestock industry generally, and no one knows where he stands. It is unfair that the burden of social services should be thrown on the ratepayers. The time has come when that will have to stop or else there will be wholesale non-payment of rates.

I believe the bovine T.B. eradication scheme is working very unfairly in the southern counties. These counties have been the Cinderella of the scheme. County after county has been declared a clearance area and the reactor cattle of all descriptions removed from the land. If we can place any reliance on the circulars received from the Department of Agriculture and the views expressed by the veterinary inspectors of the Department, any reactor kept on the land is bound to spread that disease to the rest of the herd. Yet the position is in the southern counties that, while milch cattle reactors have been removed, no steps have been taken for the removal of bullocks and maiden heifers. They are left to continue to spread the disease. I believe that is a great obstacle to the attainment of the day when we will see this disease completely wiped out.

The position in regard to grain growing is very unsatisfactory. Last year there was a flood of wheat going into the mills. I saw the wholesale rejection of that wheat at the mills. The unfortunate farmers had to carry over that wheat, in some cases for a fortnight or three weeks, while negotiations were going on with the milling companies. In most cases that wheat went sour. You had unfortunate farmers paying, in some cases four times, for the removal of that wheat to the mills.

Would this not be more relevant to the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture?

We are considering general policy now, Sir.

The Deputy seems to be particularising in respect of certain agricultural produce. However, he may proceed.

I do not want to expand on it. In my opinion, the country was defrauded by the millers this year. I believe that the method adopted eventually to clear the wheat meant that good, sound and millable wheat was deliberately mixed——

That surely belongs to Agriculture?

The bill for it is before the House.

We might as well go into industrial production in detail then.

Very well, Sir. Last night I was dealing with one method by which, I believe, we could increase production here, that is, by increased production of beet and, consequently, increased exports of sugar. I should like the Minister to tell us when replying what is the position in regard to the levy paid to Britain on the import of sugar and sugar products which cost the country £530,000 last year. I first raised this matter over 12 months ago. I think 12 months is sufficient time for any Department of State to rectify that situation, even though I admit it was due to the blunders of the Minister's predecessor in office. This has resulted in a big loss to the agricultural community, in particular to many people in my constituency, which is a large beet-growing area. I should also like the Minister to tell us what is the position in regard to securing a decent quota from the United States for our sugar and sugar products.

As I said last night, I am glad that the day has arrived—at least in my constituency—where the young men can earn at home at least as good as, if not better than, they would earn if they went across the water. Due to the expansion of industry there, there is hope that there will be even greater employment and that we shall be able to solve the problem of emigration so far as East Cork and other portions of the county are concerned.

I only hope that the same aspect that prevails in my constituency in the industrial policy will be continued in other constituencies so that young men, instead of having to look abroad for employment, will find it at home. The Government and the Minister can be heartily congratulated on the change. I do not care who claims the credit for this, that and the other, but the people of Cobh in my constituency saw what did happen. They saw an industry expanding, a change of Government and an immediate stoppage, and felt the harsh wind of unemployment until the mixum-gatherum Government was removed and progress could again be made in our industries. I have no doubt that they are far more intelligent than some of the people I see in this House.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the flight from the land. The only basis on which I can go as to the value of the earnings of any man on the land is what we allow for it in the beet industry, where the prices are based on costings brought up to date each year. This year the amount allowed in the costings for the earnings of an agricultural worker is about £5 18s. a week. If you have that sum on the one hand for the small farmer working on the land producing beet and on the other hand wages are from £9 to £16 per week in any local industry, then it is no wonder that in some places you have doors locked and the small farmer gone to earn in industry what he has no hope whatever of earning on the land. Nothing will change this except a radical change in outlook on the part of the Government and all those responsible for the present condition of affairs. You cannot expect these men to take any other line when you see on the one hand reduced prices and on the other increased rates. This makes a man feel that he must go somewhere and get something for his labour. That is the attitude very largely adopted by the young people. We were long enough in the position where the old farmer when talking about the bad times said: "Thank God I am a week ahead of the bailiff." That day has gone and we thank God for it.

The position as regards wheat growing is completely changed. To-day wheat growing is in the hands of a bunch of ranchers who refused to plough during the emergency and refused to grow wheat. They are now in the position that no matter how low wheat goes, so long as they can knock a couple of £s an acre out of a 500-acre ranch they are satisfied. But the farmer with 20 or 40 or 50 acres has no hope of supporting his wife and family on £2 an acre. That is also the position as regards grain generally. I do not wish to go further into the question of agriculture except to congratulate the Government on what I have seen good in their policy. We shall, perhaps, have other opportunities for criticising what I consider bad.

The record sum of over £131,700,000 which is being extracted from the people does not include all the demands which the people will have to meet. Numerous additional charges will have to be met. Some of them have been increased recently and involve severe imposts on many people. In the sum which is being extracted under the Estimates for the coming year the amount provided for the supply services totals over £7,000,000 more than what was taken in 1957-58. When the present Government were elected they undertook to examine the Estimates and to effect economies where possible, and in the first two years a gesture in that regard was made. The first two years showed a reduction in the Estimates for the supply services amounting to £4,000,000 odd. Included in these reductions was the very substantial reduction due to the saving in respect of food subsidies. The flour and bread subsidy alone saved £6,900,000 and the butter subsidy £2,500,000. But this year and last year the supply services have again increased, showing that, taking the four years since the change of Government, the net increase in the supply services is over £7,000,000.

In addition to that, very many additional charges have been imposed both directly and indirectly. Earlier this year the social welfare contributions were increased substantially and the ordinary rate for employers and employees has been increased from 2/4d. which it was in 1955 to 4/6d. for an employer in 1961 and 4/6d. for an employee in respect of male workers. In the case of women the ordinary rate has been increased from 2/- for the employer to 4/2d. and from 1/4d. for the employee to 3/5d. These increases this year imposed a very severe additional impost. While these increases have to be borne people have had to pay higher bus and train fares and higher charges for a variety of services that people have to avail of, as well as the very substantial increases that have occurred in the cost of living. Since February, 1957, compared with February, 1960, train fares have increased by 12.88 per cent.; bus fares have increased by 14.19 per cent. The cost of living, as shown in the consumer price index, has increased from 135 in February, 1957 to 148 in November, 1960. All these additional burdens have been imposed and have to be borne by all sections.

At the same time as there has been that increase in the consumer price index, the food index shows an increase of 16 points between February, 1957, and November, 1960; clothing an increase of four points; housing and sundries an increase of 11 points in each case; condensed milk has increased by four per cent., cocoa by 12½ per cent., biscuits by 10 per cent and other groceries by 15½ per cent. Probably the most significant increases were those in respect of flour and bread. Flour has increased by 89 per cent., bread by 69 per cent. and butter by 22 per cent.

These burdens have all to be borne by the people in addition to the very large sum of £131,700,000, which is being taken in respect of the current Book of Estimates and which includes, as I say, a sum of over £7,000,000 more for the supply services than was extracted in 1957 before the change of Government.

It is significant that that large sum of money has to be paid by fewer people. One of the undertakings given by the present Government prior to the last election was that they would provide 100,000 new jobs over a five-year period.

If we look at the statistics issued prior to the Budget last year we find in two tables the numbers of persons at work. Those tables show that the latest figures available for persons at work in agriculture, forestry and fishing—at Table 7—showed a drop between 1956 and 1959 of 20,000 persons. That drop was commented on here earlier to-day. When we turn to page 16 we find that between 1956 and 1959 there were 26,000 fewer people employed in non-agricultural economic activity. If we total those figures it is obvious that instead of increased employment there are 50,000 fewer people employed here than before the change of Government.

There are other figures which show how serious the situation is. Undoubtedly, the numbers registering as unemployed show a reduction, but what has happened? According to official figures published in Britain on 16th December last, the number of persons who went to Great Britain from the Republic, as it was described, totalled 64, 494 in 1959 and 58,316 in 1958. These figures were based on the number of insurance cards issued to people from the Twenty-six Counties entering employment in Britain for the first time and do not include non-working dependents or persons under 16 years of age who go for work but who are not obliged to stamp cards. It is significant that in two years 122,000 persons secured employment in Britain for the first time.

Four years have now elapsed since the change of Government and one would have expected that some instalment of the promises and of the plan which was offered to provide 100,000 new jobs would have been given. Instead, there has been a very substantial increase in emigration and a drop in the numbers employed from the numbers employed in 1956 or early 1957.

While that has occurred, every economic index and economic factor has been in the Government's favour. Prior to the change of Government import prices had been rising. Since February, 1957 import prices have fallen and, despite the fall in import prices, costs here have increased. Rates in 1956 amounted to £17,745,000. Rates to the end of March, 1960 amounted to £21,400,000, so that the fewer people left in the country have not only to bear a higher burden in respect of the Book of Estimates and the supply services but have to pay more for the essentials of life and also have to pay higher rates and higher social welfare contributions.

When the present Minister introduced his first Budget he said— Column 940, Volume 161 of the Official Report—

The existing Civil Service structure seems too elaborate for our needs. The grading system is, to my mind, unduly complex. I intend that these matters will be examined and radical changes made which will, I believe, ultimately produce worthwhile economies.

A Question was answered yesterday which showed that including the total of 2,700 persons who were formerly included as coming within the description of civil servants, and who are still employed in the public service but are not included for descriptive purposes as civil servants, there are now between 500 and 600 more civil servants in the State than was the case in March, 1957. Therefore for a smaller population we require more civil servants for the administration of government and instead of economies having been achieved the Civil Service is as costly and is larger than it was four years ago.

With proper and efficient business methods applied to the Civil Service I believe it would be possible to achieve a reduction in the numbers without disemploying existing civil servants. It should start with a reduction in the numbers recruited. The present system in many cases is outmoded and antiquated and many extremely competent civil servants are obliged to work under a system that is neither efficient nor economic, but because it has been in operation for many years it continues to operate. It is significant that according to the Minister's statement at column 940, volume 161 of the Dáil Debates:

The Civil Service itself has been concentrating for quite a while on organisation and methods studies. Useful results have been achieved, but the total cost of administration none the less remains too high. The abolition of certain services would, of course, yield economies, but specific proposals in this direction rarely commend themselves to the public, however much a general reduction in costs of administration may be desired. Work could, however, be expedited and expense reduced if delegation of duties were extended and the appropriate degree of responsibility were fully accepted and exercised at all levels of the Civil Service.

It is disappointing and, indeed, will come as a great surprise to the public that after four years, while this study and examination has taken place, instead of a reduction there is an increase in the numbers and no effect given to the undertaking which was expressed in the Budget Statement in 1957.

While some sections of the community have received wage and salary increases to offset rises in the cost of living—and for some these increases may ease the burden, for State employees, workers in certain undertakings such as statutory bodies and some employed in private concerns—in certain cases the increases granted have not measured up to expectations. Quite recently there was considerable dissatisfaction among Army personnel at the pay increases compared with what was expected and many statements as to the effect on morale have been made in respect of these increases.

While some benefit has been given to those categories either of State employees or persons employed in private industrial concerns or in statutory organisations, what of the large numbers of the community who have received no increases, the self-employed, small shopkeepers, the persons who run their small businesses either individually or as family concerns? These people have had to pay higher rates, have had to meet a higher cost of living and in the case of those who employ, as all of them do, some assistance, they are obliged to pay higher social welfare contributions in respect of them.

These people have not been able to compensate themselves for the very substantial increase in costs they have had to meet. They have been obliged to meet higher rate demands, higher costs in respect of the essentials of life, such as food; they have had to meet higher bus and train fares and recently a five per cent. increase in electricity charges. How can these self-employed people offset the demands being made on them? How can they compensate themselves for the added charges and costs they have been obliged to meet? These sections of the community, many of them white collar workers, persons endeavouring to pay their way and establish businesses or undertakings in which to provide for themselves or their families, are obliged to meet substantially increased burdens without any compensatory increases in respect of salaries or wages such as other sections secured.

In that connection a recent decision added a further charge to the white collar section, that is, the decision to increase the interest on Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act loans. The section of the community that availed of these loans is a section that deserves encouragement and assistance. They are people who through their own exertions, through their desire to provide better accommodation, proper homes for themselves and their families undertook the liability without imposing a charge on local authorities. Many of them through great personal exertions have availed of these loans and indeed are people deserving encouragement and assistance. I believe that the recent decision to raise the interest rate is one that will add considerably to the burden and responsibility which are borne by that section of the community.

One of the developments which the last Government encouraged was an expansion in industrial policy for the promotion of industrial exports. We recognised that in the present competitive economic conditions if industrial expansion was to be effected not alone should we have the existing facilities which were available but that we should endeavour to provide an added incentive which would secure not only an expansion in industrial employment but a much needed expansion in industrial exports.

During the term of office of the last Government we introduced tax remission in respect of industrial exports. That was introduced in 1956 and while it has been improved on since, a start had to be made. It has often been said: "Rome was not built in a day," and the decision to initiate that policy was taken by the last Government. Quite recently a very distinguished economist, Professor Carter, who is the Professor in political economy in Queen's University, referred to this when he spoke in Belfast. He said:

Progress in industry in the Republic has been remarkable. The biggest technical factor in the change has been the tax exemption for export industries.

There was an unsolicited comment by an impartial expert on what had happened. As I say, the increase in industrial development and particularly the expansion in industrial exports are directly attributable to that decision.

In addition, we welcomed and sought foreign capital for the purpose of providing capital where necessary and technical know-how where it was not available here. There have been many examples of the success of the efforts to attract foreign capital as well as the effort to secure technically qualified persons to establish and, in the initial stages, operate industries here where we either had not the capital resources available or the technical knowledge and skill requisite for the particular undertaking concerned.

Some few months ago, a question was answered in the House which showed the number of industries and factories established with the aid of foreign capital and technicians. It shows the figures for the year ending 1955/56 to 1959/60. During that period a total of 80 new factories were established which had foreign capital or technicians. The period in question covered two years of the last Government and three years of the present Government. It is significant that during the first period of two years 39 such factories were established and during the three years of Fianna Fáil only 41 such factories were established. I cannot understand what has happened to the drive and enthusiasm initiated prior to the change of Government and which seems to have tapered off to such an extent that it takes three years for the present Government to achieve what took only two years under the previous Government.

We have repeatedly expressed the view that we should encourage industrial expansion on the basis of private enterprise by the exertions of our own people which can be stimulated and encouraged by tax concessions and other assistance and that where we have not sufficient knowledge, technical know-how or where capital is not readily available, we should seek external capital and technical know-how to establish industries here. We believe that private enterprise should be encouraged in the first instance. In any particular cases where it is not possible to secure through private enterprise the establishment of a particular industry or undertaking, the State should take the initiative. The economy as a whole depends upon private enterprise and private endeavour, but where private enterprise or individual efforts or initiative are not sufficient, then it is essential for the State to take action and initiate the development of the requisite undertakings.

In pursuance of that policy we established the Industrial Development Authority to promote industrial enterprise. Indeed, since it was established, very considerable progress has been made on the basis of the initiative of that authority and the knowledge and experience which the members of the Industrial Development Authority have employed in the provision of knowledge and experience for industrial development and expansion.

In that connection, comment has recently been made on the change which has taken place in the considerable number of foreigners who have come here and purchased large farms and estates. While we have, as I say, repeatedly expressed the view that steps should be taken to encourage foreign investment, we believe that in this matter care should be taken to see that no undue encroachment is allowed and that no estates or farms are acquired by foreign interests which could be acquired by the Land Commission and made available for agricultural holdings here.

In that connection, I believe that the Land Commission should operate on the basis of providing larger holdings than were provided in the past. I mention that en passant. It is not a matter that we can discuss on the Vote on Account in detail, but it is obvious that with the changes in agricultural techniques, the development of machinery, scientific knowledge and experience and the general pattern of the economy, the size of farms which were in the past never economic will be even less so in the future. An effort must be made to provide farms of a larger acreage. It is, therefore, important that the Government should watch with the greatest care the possible serious social and economic problems which will occur if the large scale purchase of estates and farms by foreigners is allowed to continue without a careful assessment of the consequences as well as a careful assessment of the number of purchases. It is possible that the numbers being bought are not as large as would appear from time to time but, in order to allay public uneasiness and suspicion in this matter, care should be taken to compile accurate figures of the purchases and in that way have available statistics which will show the extent of development.

I believe that from the present Book of Estimates in so far as it is possible to judge it this Government have no comprehensive policy which will provide for the needs of the country. When they were elected, they undertook to provide an additional 100,000 jobs. To-day we find fewer people in employment. Over four years no fewer than 200,000 persons have emigrated to Britain. We find a higher cost of living, higher charges in respect of social services, higher bus and train fares, higher charges in respect of hospital accommodation, which have been increased from a maximum 6/- to 10/- a day. All these are added burdens. We find that, instead of having a smaller Civil Service to administer the affairs of the country, we have more civil servants than were employed four years ago.

We have fewer people in the country and they have to bear greater burdens. If that is the record of the Government after four years, I only hope that the Government will spare us the agony of another year of Fianna Fáil administration. I believe that recent indications of public opinion justify the belief that the people are anxious for a change and that they are only waiting the opportunity to effect that change on the earliest possible occasion. The Government can give the people the opportunity and the sooner the people are afforded that opportunity the better.

So far as I can see from the debate up to the present, there is no new approach by the Opposition. It is the same old story. The same methods are adopted. In short, it amounts to telling the people that if this is a fine day it is due to something the Coalition Government did but if it is a wet day tomorrow that is due to what Fianna Fáil did. Anything that is good resulted from the action of the Coalition Government but anything that is detrimental or not popular with the public is due to the incompetence of Fianna Fáil. I am afraid that the people expect more than that. The people expect a new approach, if that was ever possible, but putting old wine in new bottles is not a new approach and we have the same type of negative argument being played up here again this year.

The Leader of the Labour Party was more realistic. He agreed that there were signs of improvement generally but deplored the fact that they were not as great as they should be. He was satisfied we were correct when we claimed a marked increase in exports, that the balance of international payments had improved, when we held there was increased productivity, but naturally he wound up by saying that these increases should be more marked. All of us would like them to be more marked. We are all delighted with the progress made, especially since it is progress in the right direction—increased productivity and improved national income. The desire, however, of every member of the Government and of those who support them, must be that that progress should be accelerated as time goes on.

I was looking over speeches made when the Opposition members were on this side of the House and it is lamentable to read those speeches and compare them with what is being said now by members of Opposition. Excuses were being made for the lack of progress and all sorts of arguments were produced to show why there was a falling off in agricultural employment. There was not one speech on the Vote on Industry and Commerce in 1956, which I have before me, but had a gloomy note and a general apology for the state of affairs. In this debate, every note of discord is harped on in order to get sympathy from the people generally and I would particularly like to refer to increased E.S.B. charges.

Throughout the country at the present time there is a carefully planned effort to stimulate unrest amongst E.S.B. rural consumers, no doubt with a definite purpose, because the E.S.B. reaches the homes of practically every rural dweller. Now, irresponsible representatives of Fine Gael attend meetings of the consumers in local halls and are very glib in telling them that this increase is due to some action of Fianna Fáil. They insinuate that it is the simplest thing in the world for the Government to have these charges reduced. As a matter of fact, on one occasion at a meeting at which I, or any other Deputy was not present, Fine Gael spokesmen pointed out that the E.S.B. had approached the Government for a loan and when they did not get it, inevitably they had to increase their charges. These people forget to remind the consumers that when we were in in the midst of what was described as the financial crisis in 1956, when the income of the agricultural workers and farmers generally was lower than it is now, when, on the figure given by the Minister then, there was a 16 per cent. reduction, the fixed charges of the E.S.B. were increased by 8½ per cent. The present charges are calculated to increase revenue by 5 per cent. There was no effort made then to bring the people together to protest against the failure of the Government of the day to take action, there was no effort by the same people who are trying to stimulate unrest when there is an inevitable increase now which is directly due to action taken by the Coalition Government at the time.

In reply to a question—a reply which was very much overdue—the Minister stated that the increased charges now are due to the E.S.B. having to call on reserves which have been depleted, due to the withdrawal of the subsidy in 1955. I challenge contradiction of those facts and it is only right that the people should know them. That does not for a moment mean that any member on this side of the House does not regret. as much as those who shed crocodile tears on that side of the House, the increase in E.S.B. charges. But let us not try to misrepresent the position or mislead the people by telling them something which is a falsehood and in no way represents the facts of the situation. Every speaker who got up on that side of the House, from the ex-Minister for Finance down to the last speaker, referred to the increased E.S.B. charges, which they should be ashamed to mention.

And we shall refer to them.

Why do we have this negative type of cry anyhow? Would one not think that we would have something more constructive, something more definite? If, in 1961, we still talk about the abolition of the subsidies, would it not be much better and more constructive if the Opposition would say: "We are going to bring these subsidies back, if we are returned to power?" Why not be honest and say: "They are gone and we do not propose to bring them back?" Furthermore, when they were proposed, we were told they were no good and that they were only putting the money, the taxpayers' money, into one pocket and taking it out of another. They were condemened when they were introduced; they were useless but now they are the greatest thing ever produced and their removal was a terrible loss to the people.

I think we have reached a stage at which the people will analyse for themselves the approach of any Party to any problem. We have speakers going around the country, as we had in Sligo-Leitrim, telling them: "Your E.S.B. charges have been increased—this has been increased and that has been increased," and, at the same time, these people are pointing out that they are not getting enough subsidies or enough grants for this, that or the other thing. For their own sake I suggest it would be a much better approach if they had a more constructive outlook. Let us note the number of houses closed by emigration but let us also take heart from the thousands of new houses that are being built and have been built and the demand there is on grants available to assist the repair, reconstruction and erection of houses. We can still see that thousands of people are prepared to give themselves better conditions and better homes and form the nucleus of a stable community remaining on the farm.

The previous speaker pointed out that an evolution in farming due to mechanisation had left us in the position where the small holdings are becoming more uneconomic than ever and in which new methods must be adopted. That is true. The system operated by the small-holder 30 years ago is not sufficient today if he is to maintain the increased standard of living which he now has. I take great heart from the present Estimates because they show expansion and activity in the right direction.

While every speaker opposite saw fit to criticise what he regarded as the huge burden on the people, they failed to point the reasons for the various increases. And there are good reasons, even for the increased number of civil servants about which much play has been made. Either these speakers did not examine the position or did not want to do so. After a superficial examination I find that the main increase takes place in Post Office construction activity. It is not a sign of retrogression by any means when we have a queue for telephone installations greater than the existing staff can cope with. Every member of the House knows how frequently he is approached to expedite telephone installations, very often in areas where such facilities were not dreamt of a few years ago. That is a very marked sign of progress. I was interested to note that the main increase in the Civil Service is in the Post Office——

Surely expenditure under the Telephone Capital Acts does not appear in the Supply Services Estimates.

Yes, development of the telephone service.

I think I am right in saying that expenditure under the Telephone Capital Acts is below-the-line expenditure, not Supply Services expenditure.

Yes, but the increases——

——are paid for out of telephone capital.

No, not clerical staff.

The main thing to be drawn from that heartening activity is that more and more people are providing themselves with facilities which can only be associated with greater commercial activity and better standards of living. I challenge any member of the Opposition to point out any better means of improving conditions in rural Ireland than by giving modern amenities such as electricity, water supplies, better housing, better roads, better conditions for livestock, grants for piggeries and subsidisation for fertilisers. I challenge any member of the Opposition to point out any better means of improving the lot of the people in rural Ireland than the activities that have been vigorously pursued by the present Government. No Opposition member believes that the rot of emigration can be arrested overnight but what—unfortunately— they deplore is that the foundations of a sound, expanding economy have been well and truly laid.

The previous speaker, who is usually fair-minded, referred to industries. We have come a long way in industry. I have not been a great length in this House but there is a refreshing breeze blowing through the debates now as compared to what they were ten years ago. Nobody would venture to get up in the House now and say that industry is not essential even to our agricultural economy and the "back-lane factories" that were the subject of jeers and sneers are now referred to as industrial undertakings of high standing capable of breaking into the export market and securing figures such as those we have had in recent years.

These things were not achieved without some calculated risks, as Deputy Booth said, and stern opposition but they are now a fait accompli and let nobody suggest we should pause in our onward drive in industrialisation.

The increasing cost of living is the main theme of the Opposition at the present time but would they try to explain what consolation the public will get from the Opposition's denunciation of the increased cost of living in the last four years when the increase in their short period of 2½ years was greater than it has been for the Government's full term of four years? I cannot see what kudos are supposed to flow to the Opposition in condemning the increased cost of living now when the most marked weakness in their own period of office was that they took no action to curb the spiral. That was a Government which was not quite in agreement on policy and they allowed wages to go up and prices to follow and then wages to go up and prices to follow again. The vicious spiral went on.

Deputy Cosgrave mentioned the number of industries started during their term of office. He said "two years" in order to make the period seem as short as possible but it was 2½ years and in that term not a single industry started that was not on the stocks when the Coalition took office. In fact many of them carried over until the 1957 period.

The Deputy has a nerve. That is all I can say.

I would ask Deputy Sweetman to mention one.

Petrol refining and Avoca Mines—those are two.

Nonsense. That is absolutely incorrect.

It is absolutely true.

The facts are that the decision on the refinery was taken long before the Deputy's Government came back.

It was not.

As a matter of fact, it was discussed during their term of disaster.

The present Taoiseach flopped on it in 1951-54 and it had to be revived.

He never flopped on any industrial concern this country ever had.

Indeed he did.

The Parliamentary Secretary.

Not one single industry during those two and a half years was started that was not a success before the Coalition Government took over and many were carried over to the present time. I admit that a few were initiated during the time they were in office. Let us face the facts. That is actually what the position was. There is no gainsaying the facts and just the same position would obtain if we went out of office tomorrow. Scores of industries, now initiated, would inevitably receive a set-back because a weak Government would deter their development. That is the point I want to make. If there is one thing which creates a wrong atmosphere for progress, particularly for industrial development, and particularly in the matter of foreign investment in industries here, it is a Government in power which is likely to disintegrate overnight. That is a climate to which no one wants to return.

I do not want to harp again— everyone has been flogging it—on the 1957 election, and what Fianna Fáil said and promised. I remember listening to the Taoiseach at one election meeting when he pointed out that we were making no promises. He emphasised that we were making no promises. The fact of the matter is that Fianna Fáil could not have avoided getting back into power at that time of gloom, despondency, crises and credit squeezes. The people had practically lost hope. I heard a good business man, a supporter of Fine Gael saying: "Oh, no, not that again."

Those are the facts. It is not necessary to distort or exaggerate them in any way. Nothing we can say here, and nothing the Opposition can say, will in any way pervert the minds of the people who are well aware of what is, what was and what might have been. These are the things they must think about. I remember Ministers in the Coalition Government speaking long and loudly about the flight from the land, and going to great pains to point out that that was common to all agricultural countries in the world, that machinery was moving in and that there was less employment in the agricultural industry. No suggestion was made as to how that position might be improved. In fact, Deputy Manley, who is reputed to be manly, on the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce on 27th June, 1956, at Volume 158, column 1128, of the Official Report, said:

It is a gloomy prospect——

He was referring to agriculture, coming to the end of a Coalition period

——for the young people who have passed through vocational schools and even for our university graduates that they must go to other lands to find a living after so much time and money have been spent on them here.

People have now been talking about these things as if they all started yesterday—not yesterday, but the day the Fianna Fáil Government came back into office. How will the country ever come to a sense of reality if that type of puerile debate dominates every occasion on which this Estimate is before the House?

I believe there are people on the other side of the House capable of rising to higher things than adopting that negative attitude. If any Vote shows a decrease or an economy, they point out that the Government are falling back, that there is a lack of activity, or that something is not getting the support due to it, indicating that the Government are slipping and that fisheries, forestry, or some other branch, would show lesser activities in the years to come. All these things are being pursued at the present time.

After full consideration, when we have the increased activity in afforestation, in tourism, in industrial development, when we spend millions of pounds on the eradication of bovine T.B., when we build better hospitals, houses and other facilities for our people, I believe we are going in the right direction. I challenge anyone to point out that we are not bringing about increasing activities under every one of these heads.

I also believe—and I offer this advice to the Opposition for what it is worth—if they are ever to get anywhere, they had better accept what has happened and say: "If we are ever in office, we will do more in the same direction as Fianna Fáil, but we will do it better", rather than adopt the negative attitude of trying to make the people believe what Deputy Blowick tried to make them believe yesterday. I wonder is there a child in the country who would believe Deputy Blowick when he said: "The policy of Fianna Fáil is to put the small farmer out of existence. They do not want to say it openly but that is their policy." What is the use of nonsense of that kind? Does everyone not know that a child in infant standard would not believe that? It is useless talk and does not get us anywhere.

I am satisfied that progress is marked. I am not satisfied that it is sufficiently rapid, but I believe it could be accelerated, and I believe it will be accelerated. Everyone in this House should endeavour to ensure that it is. After all, we are here to do a job. Some people on the other side of the House would like to be back on this side but they must remember the country cannot afford the luxury of that nonsense. The approach to it should be rather on straightforward lines, not using tricks, or gimmicks, or juggling of one kind or another.

Our financial position is sound. Our finances are being held without resort to any tricks or gimmicks. I am no economist but I have some idea of the rudiments of economy and I say that no progress can be made unless things at the top—our finances—are first made sound and unless the basis is laid for expansion in our economy through increased productivity and improved permanent employment, not fortnightly relief which creates only a false sense of prosperity. Those are the fundamentals of progress. Although, as I say, I am not an economist, I challenge anybody to say that is not true.

This Vote on Account gives us an opportunity of stocktaking as to our national income and national expenditure. The present President of Ireland, when he was Taoiseach, speaking in this House some few years ago said we had reached the limit of back-breaking taxation. I think it is right we should compare the limit which we had then reached with the limit we have reached today. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance a few moments ago said he welcomed the trend of national income and national expenditure. So it is no harm that we should examine it.

Do not add little flowers to it.

I will not. Those were his words. Let us take the year 1959. The national income then was approximately £503,000,000. Last year it is estimated it was £525,000,000— a steep rise if you wish. But in 1959 the percentage of income taken away in taxation was one-fifth. Last year the percentage taken away in taxation was one-fourth. In other words, the more we earn the more we should be taxed. That is as far as I can make out the policy of Fianna Fáil. But let us remember that if we continue in that way we shall find ourselves in the position in which Britain found herself some years ago where, through super taxation, when one earned a pound one was permitted to pocket only 6d. of it.

That would appear to be the policy of Fianna Fáil—the greater the income the greater the percentage of taxation we will have to take from our pockets. That is a serious problem. We must examine the position. Two things mainly affect us, more employment which would bring more income, and less of this curse of emigration. Since Fianna Fáil took office we find there are 50,000 fewer employed in this country. I know that is a very controversial figure. The Fianna Fáil people say it is not true, that we have more employed today than in the days of the inter-Party Government.

We must get down to the fundamentals of this question where we can find out what is the truth between our statement and that of the Government, which are completely opposite: we say we have less, they say more. The register of unemployed is not a true one for this reason: there is no reference on it as to the rate at which the unemployed emigrate. But there is one true test and that is the register of employed. We have reached the stage at which social benefits are so attractive that no matter what his employment a man is highly interested in being entered in the register of employed. So we have got to get down to that register because it is there the truth of this matter lies.

There is no doubt whatever, on the figures supplied by the Social Welfare Department and by the Government, that there are 50,000 fewer employed today in this State than there were in the days of the inter-Party Government. If there are more employed then they are not on the register of employed. With these attractions of social security I am quite certain there are not 50 people in genuine employment who are not so registered. Therefore, that is the only test we can apply other than the word of each Deputy.

It cannot be denied we have had 200,000 migrants now that we did not have in the days of the inter-Party Government. Migration was not the curse that some people made it out to be 10, 15 or 20 years ago. In those days, people migrated for a few months in the year to a maximum of five months but they returned to this country with their earnings and savings. Unfortunately, that is no longer the position. When a man migrates now he not only goes himself but he takes his wife and family with him and he is a complete loss to the State. That is a different kind of migration. In fact, it is emigration which has become a very serious problem.

Again, I may be asked where I get my figures and how I know that there are 200,000 fewer people in the country than in the days of the inter-Party Government. It is difficult for me to prove that but if we look at recent litigation in our courts we will get some corroboration. Quite recently in our courts it was held there has been such a flow of population out of rural Ireland that the number of Deputies must be considerably reduced in rural Ireland. It is from the rural parts of the country that this flow of emigration has occurred, though I know Deputy Sherwin will say there is as much emigration from the City of Dublin. I have no figures from Dublin but I have from rural Ireland. In my own constituency of West Donegal there has been a fall of over 10,000 in the population over the past 10 years.

It has been said we have had more employment. There is one place in which more employment is provided. but it is a peculiar place in which to have corroboration of the statement, namely, the Civil Service. The present Minister for Finance, in his first Budget speech here, about six weeks after he had taken office, gave a promise that one of the things he would do would be to streamline the Civil Service, to dovetail one position with another and to reduce its numerical strength. There are 400 more civil servants today than there were when the Minister for Finance came into office. If he wants to quote that figure for more employment, he is right. He can prove there are 400 more civil servants today than there were then. But certainly that is not one of the places in which we hoped to find more employment when he took office.

We are told there are more industries in Ireland today. I get annoyed when I hear all this boasting about industries. Where would we be today without electricity? I do not think we could have very many industries, particularly in rural Ireland, were it not for electricity. So you remember what the Minister called the initial scheme of electricity here? It was called a white elephant. Fianna Fáil abhorred and detested it so much that they left that white elephant in complete isolation for over 20 years before they decided to take him out of quarantine. Then they boast of the offspring and progeny of this white elephant. Without it, I am afraid, no Government would have very much to crow about from the point of view of industry. I often wonder do we give credit at all to the pioneers of electricity in this State? Do we think of the late Deputy Kevin O'Higgins and Deputy McGilligan who in the early stages of the State initiated this scheme?

The Deputy is going back a considerable time.

It does us no harm sometimes. When we hear people talking today of the benefits which flow from these things, which were decried by them in those days, it makes us think.

I have referred to less employment and to more emigration. They are one of the acid tests as to whether we are progressing or otherwise. The other one is the cost of living. Without a doubt the cost of living has gone up. I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that Deputy Breslin was not present in the House a few moments ago when our colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, spoke. He spoke of Fine Gael going around the country bemoaning the increased E.S.B. charges and organising protest meetings. I am surprised that he should accuse Fine Gael of being the organisers. Deputy Breslin and I had an opportunity of attending many of those meetings. I am satisfied they were not organised by Fine Gael. Deputy Breslin and I attended these meetings, which were held at Falcarragh, Gweedore, Annagry, Dungloe, Fintown and Maghery, and gave an undertaking we would do our best to ensure that, if this 10 per cent. Increase was not abolished, there would be no further increases in the future. It is wrong of the Parliamentary Secretary, who did not attend the meetings attended by Deputy Breslin and I, to say they were Fine Gael caucus meetings. They were meetings of angry men to protest against this charge. The Parliamentary Secretary told us the reason for this charge was that in 1955 the inter-Party Government removed the subsidy on rural electrification. He said that with his tongue in his cheek. If that were so, then he has sat with his tongue in his cheek during those six years without trying to restore the subsidy.

The charter of the E.S.B. lays down that, taking year in and year out, the E.S.B. are prohibited from making a profit, and rightly so. In 1955, they were able to pay their own way. There was no necessity for a subsidy on rural electrification. In order to relieve the Exchequer, that subsidy was removed. But since then the expenses of the E.S.B. have gone up so much that they now find it necessary to resort to this obnoxious method of increasing the charge to the consumer.

You may ask me why have the expenses of the E.S.B. gone up. Primarily, in my opinion, because of the increased wages paid by the E.S.B. to their employees. It is but right that these increased wages should be paid. But do we ask ourselves why have we had these eight and ninth round of wage increases? Is it not to meet the increased cost of living caused by the slashing of the food subsidies away back in the first Budget introduced by the Minister for Finance? It is for that reason, and that reason only. If we are threatened today with a bus strike and if the employees of C.I.E. want more pay, is it not because they find they cannot meet the increased cost of living without this increase in their pay? It all stems back to the slashing of the food subsidies.

I heard the Parliamentary Secretary say that he heard the present Taoiseach say in an election address on one occasion recently that he made no promises. That is quite true. The Parliamentary Secretary may have heard him say that, but we have read the promises he made. We know what he and his then Leader, the present President of Ireland, Promised when they said in the west and in Waterford that if returned to power they would not interfere in any way with the food subsidies.

That is not true.

If I produce the Irish Press would the Deputy accept it there? If I quote the words of the present Taoiseach who said that it was a falsehood and a lie to suggest that if they were returned to power Fianna Fáil would slash the food subsidies, would the Deputy protest then?

If the Deputy produced it, but he will not be able to do so.

He said it in Waterford.

And he said it in either Castlebar or Westport as well. If I do not produce it myself I can promise that one of the speakers on this side will produce it.

It will not be in the words the Deputy quoted.

I cannot give verbatim what the Taoiseach said but I am giving the gist of it.

That is exactly the point.

Does the Deputy dispute the fact that he said that it was a lie to suggest that if they were returned to power they would slash the food subsidies or abolish them? "Abolish" was the word. Those were the words used. Does the Deputy deny that?

I will make way for the Deputy if he will tell me what he did say. Does the Deputy say that politicians do not lie?

I would not go as far as to say that. But what the Deputy is accusing us of is that it was the policy of Fianna Fáil to abolish the food subsides, but what was stated in denial was that it was not our policy. It was not our intention.

He said that it was a lie to suggest that it was the intention. On the contrary he gave an undertaking that they would be continued, but immediately within three weeks of getting into office they abolished the subsidies.

I do not think we did give that undertaking. Where did we say it during the election? And what did the Deputy's Party say?

We produced a programme, a policy setting out our 12 points. It contained those points of policy of the inter-Party Government which were agreed by all Parties, but you did not produce a policy.

I want to know what you did. Did you promise not to abolish food subsidies?

Our programme which was read by the then Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, in the Engineers' Hall in Dawson Street and which was supported by all Parties in the inter-Party Government did not include abolishing food subsidies.

You did not mention them at all.

We mention nothing we were not going to do.

You did not mention them.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance also said that one of the signs of progress and prosperity was the increased demand for telephones. I am now coming to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs which has also imposed another burden, with increased charges for telephones, for postage and for telegrams. Despite that, the Parliamentary Secretary told us that it is one of the signs of prosperity when people look for telephones. If this is a sign of prosperity may God look to us when we come looking for signs. We have increased social service charges. Now the employee must pay 4/6 per week contribution and the employer must pay the same, and what are the benefits from it? They are an extra 11/6 per week on the old age pension. In other words we pay 9/- per week to obtain an extra 11/6.

Need I talk about the poor rates? In my county the poor rates are now 52/3 in the £. Why? Because we have new increases in the costs of the various services, increased cost of maintenance and upkeep of patients in mental hospitals, district hospitals and county hospitals. The other day we had announced an increase of 25 per cent. In private motor car insurance premiums. I remember some years ago, in the inter-Party Government days, the insurance companies sought to increase premiums. The inter-Party Government refused to accept that, and referred it to the Prices Advisory Body. As a result of the advice tendered to them, the Government prohibited this increase. Now we no longer have such a body. It has been abolished by the present Government, and of course the insurance companies can give us a 25 per cent. Increase for no reason whatsoever.

Hospital charges have gone up under the Health Act. When Deputy O'Higgins was Minister for Health, the charge to patients in district and county hospitals was 6/- a day, but the present Minister for Health has raised it to 10/- a day. That, of course, is again a burden on the middle class people of the poorer type who have to pay for their own maintenance. It has gone up by almost 40 per cent.

If they can afford it.

Does the Deputy know the steps that are taken to find out whether these unfortunate people can afford it or not? Has he seen the means adopted by the investigation officers in the rural area?

The administration of the Act may not be discussed.

The Deputy has pulled it out of me. It is easily known that the Deputy lives in the city of Dublin, but if he lived in rural Ireland he would know about the means adopted by these investigation officers.

Not in all parts of rural Ireland.

In the part of rural Ireland that I know, County Donegal, the hens are counted; the earnings of the unfortunate migrants to Scotland, and the prospective earnings, are counted. Those are the methods adopted to find out whether the poor people can afford to pay for hospital treatment or otherwise. Did we ever consider or try to think of where this national income has been derived from? The Parliamentary Secretary put his finger on it when he said that it came from the various natural resources of the State. Incidentally, we might talk about the main industry. No matter how we shut our eyes to it, as the Minister for Agriculture said yesterday, the main industry in this country is agriculture. He went further and said that the main branch of agriculture is grass. I remember the time when Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture was branded throughout the State as the Minister for grass.

And maize meal.

No, maize meal was not even bracketed with it at the time. It was grass. Is it not a grand thing now to hear the Minister for Agriculture admit that Deputy Dillon was right that grass——

And maize meal.

He merely referred to grass yesterday and he cursed the farmers, not literally, for not taking advantage of the fertiliser and ground limestone schemes. Does the Deputy remember about the ground limestone, and the fact that when the inter-Party Government came into office the amount of ground limestone in this country, as Deputy Dillon often told us, was not as much as would fill an eggcup?

I challenge the Deputy on that.

Does the Deputy remember what Deputy Dillon did? He subsidised ground limestone. Does the Deputy remember the lorries on the country roads bringing it throughout the entire State? The Deputy was not in the House, and I would like to enlighten him about what we did for agriculture.

The Deputy may enlighten him about it on some other occasion.

I presume the Deputy represents an agricultural community and it is a good thing he should know that Deputy Dillon is now supported by the Minister for Agriculture.

The largest private ground limestone plant in this country was established in 1944.

What was the price at which the limestone was delivered to the farmer?

The Deputy should not shift from one point to another. Let the Deputy deal with that first. The Deputy said that it was an eggcupful.

We all know that ground limestone comes out of the rock that has been there for all time.

Will the Deputy tell me where was the largest ground limestone factory established in 1944?

Was it working?

Would the Deputy answer another question? What was the cubic capacity of the eggcup to which he referred? It must be pretty big.

I do not know the ground limestone factory to which the Deputy is referring. It was a great pity he kept it under his hat.

Thompson's, Ballyellen.

Was it working?

It was established in 1943.

There is the answer —established in 1943 when we had no transport.

I have my eyesight in my own area.

The lime must have got into it.

I got it ten years ago.

Ten years ago is right, when the inter-Party Government were in office.

It was more than an eggcupful.

Do you know the national income of the agricultural industry has fallen by £17 million since 1956? Do you know that we tried to put fisheries on its feet, and succeeded, despite the efforts of the Minister for the Gaeltacht to sabotage it, by buying up old German trawlers which he afterwards threw on the scrap market? Do you know that, in spite of our efforts to put it back on its feet, it was again sabotaged by Fianna Fáil by the pouring of £110,000 into a factory in my own constituency, a factory which went burst after 12 months?

What do we find to-day? The Gael Linn society for which I have a great deal of admiration have now stepped in to try to revive the fishing industry. Were it not for Gael Linn, I wonder what would have happened to private fisheries in this country? Gael Linn have now stepped in to try to save the language after the botch Fianna Fáil have made of it. I do not think it can ever be said of Gael Linn that they were politically disposed towards inter-Partyism, but they have become disgusted with Fianna Fáil and have now stepped in to try to save the language and the fisheries Finna Fáil made such a botch of agriculture that the sugar company— another white elephant—have stepped in to try to revive it by going into the British market with vegetables, a development which the Government should have been sponsoring.

We hear a lot about industries. I am told there were seven factories set up in my own county. I know of only three. There is one in Killybegs which got a grant of £110,000 from the State, plus a very liberal overdraft from one of the banks which has now got its fingers burnt. It went burst inside 18 months. Another factory, a cannery, which was never opened, received a substantial grant from Fianna Fáil. The only other one I know, thank goodness, is progressing very well, the veneer wood factory at Creeslough.

It is a pity the third one is doing well.

It is a good thing to see the third one going well.

You would have had a hat trick only for the third succeeding.

As I said many times and not later than at the last meeting of Donegal County Council, I am not a pessimist; I am willing to work with any group of people who are prepared to work for the good of the country. It is no pleasure for me to see my neighbours thrown on the scrap heap and having to go across the water to earn a livelihood. I do not like to see the professional people and business people in our small towns going burst and rural Ireland being denuded of its population. I certainly do not like to see that happening.

It is no harm that we should consider all these things. This Vote on Account gives us an opportunity of taking stock. The Irish people are no fools. They may not read all we have said here to-day but most of the things said here to-day were said last week down in Sligo-Leitrim. They listened. They did not say much. There was no cheering at any of the public meetings. There were no interruptions. The Irish people are becoming educated. They listened and took stock. They made up their minds and Fianna Fáil know what they did.

I do not want to make a very long intervention in this debate. I merely wish to make a few references to general Government economic and financial policy. It does seem to me there is a considerable degree of social injustice in our community, a degree of social injustice which, to my mind, is a disgrace to a Christian community. What I mean by social injustice is a level of poverty, and indeed destitution, which is capable of being alleviated. If we are deemed, by reason of inadequate resources, to be a poor community then that is the way this community has been created: if, on the other hand, it is possible for us to alleviate our present conditions and to improve the standard of living of our people and that is not done, then there is social injustice in our community.

The depressing fact which has to be faced is that notwithstanding the increase in the national income over the past few years, notwithstanding the increase in industrial employment over the past few years, the labour force in our community has been declining and the prosperity which has occurred in some sectors has not spread over the vast majority of our people. That fact must be faced, that the level of our economic activity is totally inadequate for our needs.

The Government's whole economic programme was based on the concept, first of all, that the public capital programme was going to decline and, secondly, because of this and in order to keep up economic activity, that funds should be made available, particularly to the private sector of the economy, in order to make good the declining activity resulting from the decline in the public capital programme which has taken place. The public capital programme has, in fact, declined in the past few years. Increased funds have been made available to the private sector of the economy, but it is obvious from our experience over the past two or three years that the private sector of the economy is not capable of taking up all the slack in our economy at the present time.

The increase in the activity in the private sector of our economy is to be welcomed. The fact that we have increased in certain aspects of industrial activity and the fact that industrial employment has increased in the past few years is something that is to be welcomed. The point to be made, I think, and it is the depressing fact which has to be faced, is that industrial activity in our community in the past few years has been inadequate to deal with the falling employment in agriculture and the falling employment in other aspects of our economy.

The Government's proposals were based on a certain level of capital formation and investment in the community—a level which, in my opinion, is too low. I can see no other remedy but a considerably expanded Government public capital programme in order to assist in creating employment and to assist in creating a home demand and so increase economic activity.

One of the figures which would indicate the level of economic progress is the figure for domestic capital formation. I know that this figure can be criticised. I know that in many ways it is a residual figure in the national income accounts. I know that in many ways it is a figure which can be subject to a considerable degree of error but it is at any rate an indicator. One of the factors that economists not only from this country but from abroad who examined the problems of the Irish economy have most marked has been the low level of capital investment in our country. The depressing fact, again, is that we have not yet reached the levels which we were able to attain in 1954 and 1955. In regard to domestic capital formation, I know there has been an increase—and a welcome increase—in the past few years. Following the decline that occurred due to our balance of payments difficulties, there has been an increase.

The fact is that our level of domestic capital formation is still at much too low a level and even if the Government's proposals are fully carried out— and that is very problematical — the level of capital formation in this country will still be too low.

Another aspect of Government financial policy to which I think particular attention should be paid is in respect of the proper co-ordination of our plans for capital formation. There is no proper economic planning in this country. To my mind, we need proper economic planning in order to get proper economic activity. I think it is wrong to hold out panaceas to people and to suggest that, by means of an economic plan or economic planning, we can produce prosperity. The fact that investment by local authorities, the State, State-sponsored bodies and private individuals is so unco-ordinated has meant that we have not got the progress which otherwise could have been achieved.

There is no proper co-ordination at the present time of the manner in which our plans for capital investment are to be carried out. One of the matters which I think require to be immediately attended to is the manner in which our economic planning is carried out. I spoke in this House before concerning the position of the commercial banks and the Central Bank in this country. It is easy to suggest that persons who talk on these matters are cranks and inexpert in what are very technical fields. One of the things which it is of interest to note is that if their speeches are looked at over the past five or 10 years—the speeches of persons who were critical of the banking system here—it will be found that a good deal of the criticism made has, in fact, been followed up and a remedy sought for the defects involved. A number of people who were regarded as iconoclasts and cranks made suggestions over the past five or 10 years in regard to the defects in the banking system. It will be seen that a number of these defects have been remedied and the suggestions taken up, but the fact still remains that there is considerable work that needs to be done.

We are at the present time, and have been for the past couple of years, fortunate in having no balance of payments difficulties. This Government, if they wish, may claim credit for that. I do not think that Government action in the past few years has been the major factor in avoiding balance of payments difficulties. The major factor was the terms of trade which were favourable to this country and I sincerely hope they will remain so.

The fact, however, must be faced that in times of severe imbalance in our trade and deificit in our balance of payments, a severe strain is now being put on our banking system. When there is a deficit in the balance of payments and, perhaps, another crisis in our balance of payments which may come next year or the year after, that is not the time to deal with our banking and credit institutions but rather now when cries of alarm and cries of lack of confidence in our banking system need not be heard.

I do not intend to go into the technical aspects of this problem. I know they are many and varied. I do not accept the view that it is not possible for the Central Bank in our economy —a particularly open economy—adequately to control the credit policies of the commercial banks in such circumstances. At the present time, we are unique in the world. I do not think there is any country in the world which has a banking system such as ours. Every country in the world claims the right to control credit policy. Every Government, some by more effective means than others, have the power to direct the credit policy of the commercial banks. This country has to rely entirely on exhortation and consultation which may in some circumstances be effective, and, in others, may not. It seems to me that now is the time, before we are faced with another balance of payments crisis, to deal with this particular problem.

I should like to point out one extraordinary factor. At the present time we are required to maintain 100 per cent. backing of foreign securities for our note issue. I know there have been proposals that that should be slightly altered, but the effective position is that we require 100 per cent. backing for our note issue by foreign securities. In fact, the Central Bank has a considerable amount of securities which cannot be used in times of balance of payments difficulties to ease these problems and to make less drastic the steps which have to be taken to remedy them.

The extraordinary position is that Nigeria, which is, to some extent, in a position rather similar to our own, has built up its external assets and its note issue dependent on those external assets. That country, which has been free for only six or eight months, requires only six per cent. backing for its note issue, while we retain the absurd and antiquated system of requiring 100 per cent. backing of foreign securities for our note issue. These are not merely academic suggestions; these are not the ideas of cranks or persons unqualified to deal with this problem. These are very real matters which affect the livelihood of our people.

At the present time, when there is no balance of payments crisis, when the economy is expanding, these problems do not arise. The point I wish to stress is that now is the time when they should be dealt with, and not when we face—as we are certain, in the nature of things, to have to face— a deficit in our balance of payments sometime in the future.

There are various types of criticisms which could be made of the Estimates now before the House. By and large, people do not like increased Government expenditure, but there is one item on which I should like to see increased Government expenditure, and would welcome it, that is, in the field of education. I feel that we are spending inadequate sums on education and that we will have to spend much greater sums in the future. We are, in fact, living in a country in which there is great inequality of opportunity, in which a person's future is dependent on the stratum of society into which he is born. That should be changed and the way to change it is through education.

The level of education given to the vast majority of our children is totally inadequate. I do not want to go into detail now. I shall deal with the question of the Irish language and the problem of teaching in the national schools more fully when the Estimate for the Department of Education, is before the House. Those problems must be tackled immediately and a radical change will have to be brought about. As I say, it seems to me that we will have to face increased expenditure on education in order to bring about more just conditions in our community.

This debate has been characterised by Government spokesmen's efforts to suggest that speakers on this side of the House do not welcome the signs of improvements which have been made. Government spokesmen say there have been improvements and that they hope for more. That is a sentiment with which everyone would agree, but the problem I see, and the reason I am not an optimist with regard to our economic progress, is that for so long our economy has been sick, for so long we have been an underdeveloped country with real problems of unemployment, poverty and destitution in our midst. There are slight signs of an improvement in parts of our illness. It is as if the fever in a sick man has gone down slightly and he starts talking of being well again.

The signs which have been there for the past couple of years—an increased national income, an increased level of employment in industry—are all welcome. They may or may not point to a future of steady progress. The economic history of this State over the past 10 or 12 years shows that we have had periods of limited progress followed by periods of decline again. That has nothing to do with whether the Government in power have been composed of different people. It is largely dependent on the balance of payments position. That problem may be repeated and I feel that this sick man with whom we are dealing, this sick economy with which we are dealing, will need very radical remedies to bring it on to the point at which we can say we have a really buoyant and healthy economy.

This debate is normally used by the Opposition to spotlight the effects of Government policy on the economic life of the country. Subscribing to that view personally, I nevertheless deplore the fact that, listening to the debate, one must be struck by the fact that all Government Deputies see the economic life of the country, and its future prospects, through the rosiest of spectacles, while, on the other side of the House, the vast majority see nothing in the future but gloom and disaster. I think neither side is correct.

It is deplorable that Deputies on all sides of the House, because of the side they now occupy, allow the picture to be so distorted. In my view, that is causing the utmost confusion throughout the country. Where, but to Dáil Eireann, will the ordinary people look for guidance and direction, and if they get nothing but pessimism, distress and gloom from one group and prosperity— which they know does not exist—from the other, is it any wonder that when an election, be it a by-election or a general election, is held, the ordinary people appear to lose faith and take no interest in it at all?

The right freely to elect a Government to run a country, and to change that Government if the people so desire is a privilege we do not appear to value sufficiently highly. Many countries throughout the world, and throughout Europe, would be very pleased to have that privilege. The apparent lack of interest must, in my opinion, surely stem from the fact that we have caused by our contradictory expressions of opinion in this House and elsewhere, so much confusion that the people have lost faith.

In common with other Deputies, I intend to take advantage of this debate to indicate the parts of Government policy which I believe need to be changed. I welcome any improvements that have taken place over the past number of years, irrespective of what Government were in power.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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