Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (16th Dáil) – Tuesday, 9 May 1961

Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— (Deputy McGilligan).

Mr. T. Lynch

Last week, I referred to the matter of the C.I.E. mystery excursions and commented on suggestions that C.I.E. were considering abandoning them. I exhorted the Parliamentary Secretary to inform C.I.E. that the Department of Justice, through the Garda Síochána, would stand behind C.I.E. in the matter of protection, so that the ordinary people throughout the country can enjoy these mystery tours and that a small minority of blackguards will not be allowed in future to impose their will on the country and drive C.I.E. into abandoning these tours.

Last week, I also spoke of juvenile delinquency and said that, in my opinion, the only way to stop it was through adequate punishment. Something else that should be considered seriously is the fact that the Garda are the protectors of the people and that if and when Gardaí are brutally assaulted in the course of their duty, the people guilty of such assaults should be punished and not just reprimanded. Only too often such people come into the courts and apologise through their solicitors. There must be more co-operation by the courts in dealing severely with such people when they are brought before them.

It was suggested during the debate on this Estimate last week that there was no truth in statements that there was dissatisfaction in the Garda Síochána. Judging from what I have been told and from correspondence I have received, there is great dissatisfaction in the force at the present time. Much to the credit of the Garda, this dissatisfaction is being borne patiently. Deputy Lemass spoke of the implementation of the findings of the Garda Arbitration Board and the recommendations for the consolidation of the rent allowance with pay. The Minister also referred to it in his opening speech. My information is that the Garda got in the neighbourhood of £60 a year as a rent allowance and that if this were consolidated with the pay increase, it would be about £65. That did not amount to much as a pay increase— something like 2/- a week.

It is interesting to compare the rates of pay and allowances here with those in the Six Counties and in Britain. The comparison is very interesting when we concentrate on the rent allowances. Here the rent allowance alone amounts to about £60, that is, about 25/- a week. In the Six Counties, the rent allowance is £2 a week. Uniforms are provided free in the Six Counties and the boot allowance there is £7 16s. a year. In London, the rent allowance is £3 2s. 6d. a week and in the provinces in Britain, it is £2 2s. 6d. The Garda have a cycling allowance of £4 11s. a year and their boot allowance is £5 4s. a year.

These are comparisons to which I would strongly draw the Minister's attention. Instead of relying on arbitration boards, I would exhort the Minister, as a fair-minded man, to intervene personally and discuss these matters with representatives of the Garda. Recently a great number of letters have been appearing in the Garda Review, complaining about the type of accommodation the members of the force have to put up with. It is all very well to say that Garda stations have some very fine accommodation. There are some splendidly equipped stations in the country but there are twice as many which are not.

Another bone of contention is the matter of promotions in the Garda. Many people are under the impression that the people who were in the force at the beginning—the men who built it up—are being passed over in the matter of promotion. It is very important that an officer, or a sergeant, or an ordinary Garda for that matter, who has spent all his life in giving faithful and efficient service and in the building up of a magnificent force, should be able to retire after receiving the promotion he deserves.

Only recently promotion in the higher ranks was given to a man who was 41st on the list. There have been other promotions in the same way. This may be a new policy introduced by the Minister or his Department but I would remind them that a similar policy was introduced in the British police force nearly 40 years ago, after World War 1, and the fine officers, with long experience which made criminals known to them and also made known to them how to keep crime at bay were passed over. I think it was Lord Byng who became Commissioner in Great Britain at that time and he began to promote men who has come through the 1914-18 War and had come into the police force the quick way. The newspapers or the police force in Britain at the time named these men "The Byng Boys" after a famous London review.

As far as the criminals were concerned they had a wonderful time. The policy had to be changed: there was no substitute for the long experience of the tried officers. It was good for the force as a whole that every man should know that if he had given years of devotion to his calling as a police officer, promotion would be there for him. It is a source of great dissatisfaction that men now approaching the end of their time in the Garda are likely to have to come out without any chance of promotion.

A great many vacancies should be filled within the county. Promotions from sergeant to inspector should be given to senior sergeants with from 26 to 38 years' service. There are many very fine senior sergeants in the force who should not be passed over. This state of affairs does not apply in the Civil Service or any other service. It is not fair to pick out a junior man and promote him to inspector. That blocks promotion for 20 or 30 years. A junior who has joined the Garda and has only a few years' service has one great thing in his favour—he can afford to wait because he has youth. The senior man must go out after a couple of years. If he is promoted it means there will be promotion for somebody else in a short time. The Minister should consider that side of it.

In October, 1960, according to my information only five senior men were promoted while 11 juniors were promoted sergeants. I am told that of the many sergeants throughout the country 33 have passed the qualifying examination for inspectorship and 21 of them qualified fully in all subjects, including Irish, which might otherwise be brought up as an obstacle. The Minister should inquire into this: juniors are being promoted over the heads of seniors. Pay and allowances in the Garda must be overhauled in view of what is happening in Britain and other places. We shall not continue to get the fine type of young man to go into the Garda that we are now getting. The Minister may say there are more of them offering than the Depot needs; that may be so to-day but, as things are going, in a short time it could happen when the Garda come to recruit, they will not get the best.

After four years a Garda sergeant reaches a maximum of £14 a week. That is £10 to £15 less than the pay of his British or Northern Ireland counterpart who reaches a maximum of £24 15. after two years in the rank. That is a very serious difference, although I know we are not as rich as Britain.

The Garda conducted an investigation into traffic trends in Dublin. I believe that investigation was made at the behest of German experts who were brought here. I want the Minister to inquire into the qualifications of these German experts and not take it for granted that they are experts just because they come from Germany. I mentioned this last year, and, although I have not the report with me, I can tell the Minister from memory that the populations of Great Britain. France and Federal Germany are practically the same.

I have these figures from O.E.E.C. There were 5,000 people killed on the roads of Great Britain in 1959, 6,000 to 7,000 on the roads of France, and 13,000 on the roads of Federal Germany. Yet we send to Germany for people to come over here to tell us what to do about our traffic problem. I think the Germans ought to come here to ask us for help in stopping the slaughter on their own roads. I ask the Minister to investigate the qualifications of this gentleman.

On the Road Traffic Bill it was stated by several speakers, among them prominent members of my own Party, that 90 per cent. of the motorists on our roads are law-abiding. I make a count every time I leave my home to come to Dublin. I ask for the protection of St. Christopher, and many others, on the journey. I make my count to see how many escapes I have from reckless drivers—out on the whiteline, on the wrong side of the road, cutting in; I never get less than from seven to 10. If there is a race meeting, the figure goes up to twenty. We shall have to make these motorists pay attention and the only way we can do that is by prosecuting them. The only way we can catch them is by having road patrols, moving about in cars which are not easily identifiable and which are not manned by uniformed police. Some people may accuse the Department of Justice of permitting the Garda to have joy rides. I should like to see them having joy rides for the purpose of knocking some manners and some courtesy into the heads of the barbarians who are now using our roads.

I do not know how the Minister will tackle the problem of cyclists and pedestrians in Dublin. Dublin pedestrians are determined they will not give way to anyone. Their nerves must be very good. I have asked people from other countries what they think of our traffic and they tell me it is appalling. that they have never seen anything like it anywhere. Pedestrians and cyclists could not care less. They must say more fervent prayers to St. Christopher than I do because they always seem to escape the consequences of their folly. There are some who say that the schools should teach children road safety. The Garda have done an excellent job in lecturing in the schools. It is up to the parents to give the children some kind of instruction and good example.

I know the Minister will accord to me his usual courtesy by answering the questions I have asked. His example could be followed with advantage by some of his colleagues.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am glad to note from the Minister's opening statement that crime has decreased considerably in the city of Dublin. I take this opportunity of thanking the Minister on behalf of the citizens and complimenting the Garda authorities who have done such an excellent job. The position has improved considerably since the Minister took office in 1957. We then had to deal with the teddy boy menace. While there are still some, the numbers are small as compared with four years ago. This city should be one in which ordinary people can walk the streets without being interfered with by young blackguards using knives. The severest punishment should be meted out to anybody found with a knife. It is a shocking state of affairs that youngsters going to school or the cinema should be molested by young ruffians. Fortunately the situation has improved considerably in that respect.

We all deplore the vandalism on the C.I.E. tours. I hope that the culprits will be brought to justice. Thousands of our citizens are anxious to avail of these tours and it is an intolerable situation that a few boys of the teddy boy type should deprive people of this pleasure. I sincerely hope the tours will not stop and that law will prevail. If it does not, we shall have mob law. I appeal to the Minister to co-operate with C.I.E. to the fullest extent possible to bring those responsible to answer for their shocking behaviour.

I see the Minister has made a further advance in relation to housing for the Garda. He has appointed a superintendent in charge. I am very happy that a responsible officer should be put in charge for the purpose of investigating the position and finding out what improvements can be made.

The Minister visited a number of Garda barracks in the city and went to the trouble of trying to find out some things at first hand. Nevertheless, a number of our barracks leave a lot to be desired in the matter of the comfort of the men. I would ask the Minister to ensure that the living quarters, especially of the single men who have to do night duty, are comfortable. They should not have to sleep in a room through which men on day duty have to pass because these men need an undisturbed sleep after they have been on night duty.

I should also like to see the day rooms improved. They seem to be the same today as they were 30 years ago. They are very cold, forbidding places and while we do not want to see them absolutely up-to-date, at least they should be improved considerably. They should be more cheerful for the men who have to work in them and for the people who, reluctantly, are compelled to visit Garda barracks from time to time.

I have also received complaints about the huts at Mountjoy Prison. I was told only this evening that some of the huts around the prison in which both uniformed and plain clothes men have to stay are anything but comfortable. That is particularly so on wet and windy nights and, indeed, some of the prisoners inside seem to be better off. I am bringing this matter to the notice of the Minister in the hope that he will do something about it. I suppose there is nothing I can say about the Commission on Itinerants——

Mr. McQuillan

They have gone on the road themselves. They have gone to Canada.

Mr. P.J. Burke

We have that problem in the city and county of Dublin and hardly a week goes by that I am not asked if itinerants cannot be moved from, say, Ballyfermot, to some other area.

Mr. T. Lynch

To some other constituency.

Mr. P.J. Burke

A number of people who are buying their own houses and have their gardens nicely laid out are pestered with itinerants' horses. On that point, I suppose we will have to wait until we see the Commission's report. Two of my colleagues behind me are anxious that they should go down the country so if we could encourage them to leave the city and county, they would be very happy.

Mr. Sherwin

Just in case I should forget the point, I should say, and I do not mean any reflection on the Guards, that the reduction in crime is not entirely due to the alertness of the Guards. They do their duty, but, just to correct the Deputy, a very large number of people who would otherwise be very active here are over in England. That is one of the reasons crime is down and I know what I am talking about.

I mentioned once before that I was engaged in running dances in the past. One might ask: "What has that got to do with the matter?" It has a lot to do with it because a person who runs dances is in touch with thousands of people every night of the year. I met many people and I met all sorts of people. I have had Ministers of State at my dances and pickpockets and streetwalkers and people of every sort. It so happens that I was in London during the summer and I encountered many people I knew because I had met them in Dublin. I knew a number of them to have been beggars in Mountjoy and they were in London. I spoke to them and they told me all their pals were over there. I spoke to a man only a couple of days ago—he was with me in connection with a house and I shall mention no names—and I asked him about his two sons who had been in Mountjoy. He said they were in jail in England. Those are facts.

When Deputy McGilligan opened the debate, he wanted to know why a Parliamentary Secretary had been appointed and said that he believed that the offices of Defence and Justice should be combined. I do not accept that at all because the mentality of the man in charge of Defence, organising wars and spilling blood, would be different from that of the man in charge of Justice, looking after children's homes and so forth.

In regard to the appointment of the Parliamentary Secretary, I understand that the Minister will not be back in the House after the next general election. I do not know if that is true, but if it is true, it is only natural that someone should be appointed who knows the ropes. That would justify the appointment. It would be wrong to have a complete "rookey" coming into a Department because it would take a man coming into a Department for the first time months to know what is what and he would be at the complete mercy of the civil servants so that it does pay to have a person who is responsible and who will know the ropes from the beginning.

While I am not here to pay compliments, I can say that I am satisfied with the Parliamentary Secretary who, I believe, is a most competent man and very anxious to go ahead. That is what we want and again I intend no reflection on the Minister, who has spent all his life on the job, but it is true that a new brush sweeps clean, whether we like it or not. There is a lot of work to be done in the matter of law reform and the Parliamentary Secretary will be a good man, assuming he is fortunate enough to continue in office.

Now, I do not get up here solely to compliment people; I criticise people, too. I speak according to what I believe. Some people patronise one Party as against another, but I do not do that. Deputy Lemass made a proposal that we should have mounted Guards here and he mentioned the success of the horse police in London. There are a lot of things we would like to have but there is the question of utility and the question of expense and I do not think there is any need for such police here. In London there are 9,000,000 people, with huge crowds and processions, visiting Royalty and all that kind of thing, and you need something like the horse police to keep order. There is very little of that here. It would be expense that we cannot afford. We are told here that the aim is streamlining, efficiency, and so on. Mounted police would be very expensive. I do not know what the mounted police would be doing other than showing off in O'Connell St. as the Horse Guards do in London. There is no work for them to do in this city.

I do not think the Ban-Ghardaí have lived up to the reputation that was given to them in the sense of being of any great utility as a uniformed force. They would be an important addition to the Garda Síochána as a plain clothes force. As I see it, they are merely substituting for Gardaí on point duty. I do not think they can do the job as well as the Gardaí do it. When a Garda is controlling traffic, people who do not wait for his signal get a frown or a shout from him. I could not imagine girls frowning or shouting. I imagine that they would not be able to control traffic as well as male Gardaí. Without having any objection to the employment of females, I am not at all in agreement with females taking the place of males. The Ban-Ghardaí would be of real service as a plain clothes force.

I was in a cinema queue last week. There was a troublesome person there. Her method was to make herself a nuisance. She did not threaten but just got in the way. People gave her money to get her out of the way. I have noticed this person on other occasions doing the same thing. A Garda approached but when she saw him coming she walked off and when the Garda went away she came back again. If the Ban-Ghardaí were in "civvies" they could arrest such a person quite simply.

There is a tremendous amount of pilfering from stores. There is soliciting on the streets. In such cases Ban-Ghardaí in "civvies" could be useful.

I do not suggest that the Ban-Ghardaí should be disbanded, but I suggest that they should be a non-uniformed force, in which case they would be of tremendous service. They are not doing the work that I thought they would be doing. I did not envisage that they would be walking up and down the town in uniform or doing point duty. They would be much better employed on the work they were intended to do, that is, watching out for cases of soliciting and pilfering from stores and for professional beggars annoying people on the street. That kind of work can be done only by non-uniformed police who can arrest offenders before they have a chance to get away. I mention that matter because it is important.

I said earlier that there is need for law reform. I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister the practice of employing sheriffs to collect debts. A woman came to me three months ago and told me that she had got a loan of £10 and had to pay 39 per cent. interest. It is amazing that people can get power to charge such a high rate of interest. Because she did not pay on the nail each week they piled £2 or £3 solicitor's costs on her and then handed the case to the sheriff. Once the sheriff decides to handle a case he must get £3 3s. This poor woman got a bill for £19. She had had the £10 for only about a year.

The same applies in the case of corporation tenants. If the sheriff is notified to carry out an eviction he must get £3 3s. although the case may be settled. The tenant must pay that £3 3s. The whole question of the sheriff and his powers and functions must be considered in some future law reform. I understand that where an order has been made against a person for debt and where there is a return of "no goods" the sheriff gets nothing. I understand also that the sheriff may send anybody at all to the person's home to see what goods he has and on the information of that person the sheriff acts.

These are small points that were brought home to me by a solicitor who asked me to suggest that the question of the sheriff and his powers ought to be re-examined.

I shall now mention a matter that I have mentioned on other occasions. It is the question of court costs. I cannot understand why a person cannot obtain costs from the State. A person is dragged into court and is found not guilty. He may have had to engage a solicitor or junior or senior counsel. He may have to pay out £40 or hundreds of pounds. In the case of litigation between citizens the innocent party gets costs but where the State is involved the successful party gets no costs. There is nothing as unfair as that and the time will come when something will be done about it. It is another case where law reform is necessary.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not in order to advocate legislation on the Estimates.

Mr. Sherwin

I did it in the past and everybody chances his arm and does it. I will depart from that.

During the year I asked the Minister a question on the subject of slings and I do not think I got a satisfactory reply. I asked him to ban catapults and slings. His answer was: "What is the use of doing that; they can be too easily made." Catapults are on sale in huckster shops at 3d. each That creates a temptation. If a boy had to make a sling, he might not bother. If the sale of slings were banned, for every person who would make a sling 1,000 would not bother.

I asked a question at Dublin Corporation recently and elicited the information that 11,000 bulbs are smashed annually as a result of slings. In most cases, these bulbs are protected by a wire net but a small stone can get inside it. It must be remembered that this refers only to the damage done to Corporation bulbs and not to windows. I have to report that as many as 800 windows in the Seán MacDermott Street-Summerhill area were smashed with stones. I am only talking about the damage done to Dublin Corporation property. I am not referring to the damage done all over the city to citizens' property. I hold that slings should be banned. What does one get a sling for? You do not get it for the purpose of stretching the rubber. You put something in it in order to fire it. You must fire it. You get no "kick" out of buying a sling and looking at it or throwing a piece of paper. The "kick" consists of firing the stone and hearing the crack of glass. Children love to hear glass cracking. This is a serious matter. Slings should be banned. They can do no good but can cause a great deal of harm.

With regard to flick knives, I understand they are banned in Britain and many people are worried that they will make their appearance here in consequence. You cannot ban all knives. For example, boy scouts require knives but the flick knife is different. It is the flick which gives the teddy boy the "kick." It turns him into a kind of Caesar. That particular type of knife should be banned. The flick knife enables a young fellow to show off when he brings the knife out. That is the impression he wants to put over on his pals.

While different Departments of State are of importance in the everyday life of the people, such as Industry and Commerce and Local Government, there is one Department which should be completely at one with the interests of the people, that is, the Department of Justice. There are many weak links in the chain of justice in this country. It is essential that we should speak our minds on this Estimate. In view of all the facts which must be known to the Minister, I would ask him to make sure that in dealing with the people as a whole, no special concessions will be given to any section. I have in mind a position in the county I come from. It is of little use to speak of justice if we ignore moral values and if the servants of the State from the Minister down do not uphold moral standards and values. It is known to the Department and the Minister that even in Cork city some people, a very small minority, thank goodness, have set themselves up as being immune from justice. Where it is proved to all concerned, from the Minister down, that moral standards are being lowered to the detriment of the people not only in Cork and Dublin but elsewhere, they should ensure that the culprits will be made accountable for the conditions that are so prevalent.

I would much prefer not to have to speak on this but there is little use in the Minister telling us the number of prosecutions during the year, the number of people fined for not having dog licences, the number of people fined for not having a rear light on a bicycle. When the law is broken in this way, these people should be fined, but it is tragic to note that while we speak of an increase in prosecutions under these headings, some people can flout the law and laugh at the moral standards that we as a nation must be prepared to uphold.

It is alarming that we have people going around in motor cars waylaying young girls. Where is the law and where is the justice when this can be done? I can give one instance that happened no later than last night. An accident occurred in which one person was killed and another seriously injured and within one hundred yards of that scene, four ruffians stopped their car and tried to interfere with young women who were travelling along the road minding their own business. Yet the Minister tells us that crime is on the decline. How can we be complacent when this rowdyism is so prevalent? If we believe in Christian principles, we should practise them. I laugh at people in this House who point out: "If the law is broken, there is something wrong with the person who breaks it." We are following England and America on that line. There is pity for the person who breaks the law but there is no pity for the victim, for the girl going the road who is in danger of being waylaid. I ask the Minister to advise those responsible for administering justice to ensure that the traditions we hold dear, as those before us have done, will be respected and that no mercy whatever will be shown to such offenders against our moral standards.

There is another item which I have raised with the Minister's predecessors. It is in regard to children in court. We have not reached the stage where we can say things are getting better in that respect. I would not for a moment advocate the drastic treatment of children if they break the law, but we all know that parents are shielded from publicity. We know also that in many instances not only do children break the law once, but two or three times. We have heard the stories of parents in court: something or other happened and they could not supervise the conduct of the children; they promise the children will be good in future and the judge lets them off. If children break the law, I believe it is completely the fault of the parents in a high percentage of cases.

The names of juveniles who break the law are not published, naturally, but I would suggest to the Minister that where a boy or girl breaks the law, or defies the law, on a second occasion, the names of the parents should be published. We do not want to victimise anyone, but what of the victims in a case where damage is done? We are always prepared to help what may be termed the under-dog, but in a case where the under-dog destroys public property, or damages his neighbour's house, the under-dog, in this case, the juvenile, knows that his or her name will not be published and that his or her parents need not worry. The delinquents stay out until 10 o'clock or 12 o'clock at night, or 1 o'clock in the morning, breaking the law, and their parents smugly know that their chances of being sent to a reformatory school are very slight. We must have a change in that regard.

I ask the Minister to have these problems reconsidered. Dublin is a very large city and it has, naturally, a high percentage of such cases, but the same applies to all the other cities. As I said at the outset, unless this Department, which is so closely connected with the lives and the welfare of the people, and the Minister are prepared to give a lead, I am afraid there is no use in the Minister saying that things are getting better when we know in our hearts that things are certainly getting worse.

Many Deputies have referred to the conditions of the Garda. I agree with those Deputies who criticised the removal of the rent allowances. I agree with Deputies who spoke about what they knew to be true and what I know to be true—the conditions under which some members of the Garda have to live in some of our country barracks. I am afraid that some of the cells are not much worse than many of the places in which these young men must live. Is that fair to them? After all, of all the servants of the State, they are one section upon which we must depend above all others to enforce law and order. If we are anxious to get young men of high standards into the Garda, it is our duty, and the duty of the Minister, to see that their living conditions are such that they will not have, as they have at the moment, reason for complaint. I do not know anything about their conditions in the city of Dublin or the city of Cork, but I do know the country areas. It is very unfair that these young men must continue to exist—because existence is all it is—in some of these old barracks.

Many of our young Gardaí are not satisfied on the question of promotion, and there has been discontent for some time. My experience has been that they are most reasonable men but many of them can point out different instances where they considered that denial of promotion was unfair. We must be above board in this regard. It is essential that fair play be given every member of the force. There must be no question whatsoever of favouritism.

We must not go back to the stage which I know obtained prior to 1948, when certain members of the Garda had, of necessity, to join some of the private cells or clubs of a certain political Party, because they realised their future welfare was at stake if they did not. I do not want to see that happening again. If that were to happen again, the country would suffer and at the present time the country is suffering enough, because men are leaving the force and emigrating because they found the conditions here anything but satisfactory.

I know also from my own personal experience in different parts of County Cork, of cases where members of the Garda did their duty; where they were satisfied there was a breach of the law they brought the culprit before the court to ensure that justice would be done. The tragic thing is that in many cases many members of the Garda have given up as a bad job the bringing of prosecutions before the courts, because time after time the decisions have been such that the Garda have been made a laughing-stock by people who should be behind bars, but who apparently got away with it on some pretext or some excuse presented by their legal defenders and accepted by the court.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That seems to be a reflection on the judiciary and the district justices.

Mr. Desmond

I am not dealing with any particular case but I am here to say, and I know that under the Standing Orders of the House I am entitled to say, that if any section of the community needs a refresher course once every 12 months it is members of the Bench. I say that with all earnestness and sincerity. We have not been blind to the fact that on different occasions where decisions have been given they were a disgrace to those who sat on the Bench. The Minister should ensure that that does not continue. If it should continue it is a case of "God help Ireland and God help the Department of Justice."

Mr. Manley

It is quite obvious that the Estimate for the Department of Justice has been evoking a growing interest in recent years. That interest is not associated with concern about what is provided in this Vote for expenditure by the Department during the year. It is attributable, almost entirely, to the alarming increase in crime in recent years. The general public are very uneasy about the situation as they see it at the moment. They look to the Department of Justice to provide them with the necessary protection for their persons and their property, and they look to the Department of Justice to make the necessary provision for the detection of crime and the punishment of criminals. It is only on an Estimate such as this that they can get any assurance from the Minister that the policy of the Department is that they will bring culprits to justice, and pursue relentlessly those responsible for crimes against our citizens and against the property of the people.

We were edified to hear the Minister state that there was a decrease of 14 per cent. in indictable crimes in 1960, as against the 1959 figure. He said also that there was an increase in the detection of crime from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. This is to the credit of the Department of Justice. No doubt it will bring cause for hope to the people. The Minister outlined three causes for the improvement in the Department's efforts to meet this crime menace. He mentioned the increase in the Garda force. Years ago, because of the peaceful conditions which existed, there was a conviction among many people that we could do with fewer Gardaí. The strength of the stations was reduced in some areas and barracks were closed in others. Time has proved it was wise that the Department did not pursue that policy, because it would be necessary now to restore some of these stations. It was very noticeable, too, that when a Garda station came to be closed, the whole parish were up in arms protesting about the loss of their barracks, even though they may not have always co-operated with the Garda to the extent one would expect.

The Minister mentioned also that the success of the efforts to reduce crime was partly attributable to co-operation from the public. If we are ever to make any impact on the crime menace and reduce it to a reasonable minimum, it will be necessary to get the co-operation of all the people. We know that in the past the Garda have had to live down a suspicion built up over the years. There was an old saying in the countryside that one can never trust a policeman. I believe that still exists. When we were ruled by an outside Government, which had its police force here, there was a feeling of distrust and suspicion. Unfortunately, many of the older generation still maintain that distrust and suspicion.

We must realise that the Garda are an institution established here under a native Government. They are there for the protection of the people. They are our best friends and they deserve every co-operation the people can give them. They have been very exemplary over the years and have set a fine example—an example that future Gardaí should at least try to live up to, if not to emulate. It would be a pity if the Garda, in their efforts to put people's minds at ease and assure them they are doing their best, did not get the necessary co-operation from the public.

For that reason, there is some substance in what other Deputies have stated here—that the Garda should be a fully contented force and that they should get every consideration. They have got an increase in recent times and the rent allowance was incorporated in their basic pay. It was a pity that in the application of that recent increase, it was not made retrospective for at least one year, because those Gardaí who retired during 1959 feel a grievance in that respect. I suppose nothing can be done about that now, except through their Representative Body, but at least our police force should be assured that their interests will be well safeguarded, financially and otherwise, by the Department of Justice.

The Minister told us he was providing an extra 29 Garda cars during the coming year. I admit Garda cars are necessary for the present activities of the force. In the case of accidents on the road, and particularly of the hit-and-run driver, there is no way of tracking the offender down except with a car. At the same time, we should not overdo mechanisation. The presence of a Garda on foot in the streets of any town is always an assurance that the people may rely on him that nothing will go wrong. The Garda car sometimes loses its value by advertising itself. The criminal knows the Garda car is in the vicinity and carries out his operations in such a way as to elude the vigilance of those in the car.

In addition, I respectfully suggest that the young men going into the Garda would benefit by regular exercise on foot or even with the ordinary pedal bicycle. Let the older Gardaí, who have been in the force for years, have the ease the car provides. They have the experience. I have no doubt the young Garda driving the car will benefit by having the older Garda beside him, and that both will have a balanced approach to their duty.

It was suggested that we should have mounted police. I cannot see that mounted police would be of any use whatever here. The only place they would be useful is in charging a mob, and we do not have such things very frequently here. In any event, we have the Army with horses available. With the smooth surface on the streets in Dublin it would be very difficult, if not impossible. to have mounted police make a charge. It was mentioned they would be very useful on ceremonial occasions. For a small island like this, I think we have far too many ceremonial occasions. We always have the Army to fall back on for a mounted cavalcade, if the need should arise.

With regard to the deterrents to crime, there is great belief that the greatest deterrent of all is the justice on the bench, that he should be more severe in the penalties he imposes— to use the common jargon, that he should be tougher in dealing with crime. There is a big volume of worthwhile opinion which advocates that the "cat" should be restored for crimes of a certain nature. It would be the greatest deterrent of all for these young desperadoes, with guns and knives in their hands, who have no respect for person. No matter how cruel, how inhuman or how brutal the "cat" may be in such cases, we have to consider that the attacks made by these people are brutal, inhuman and cruel and that they must be met with their own methods. The very fact of having it here would, in itself, be a useful deterrent against these youthful criminals, the result of whose activities we see so frequently. This new type of crime, this stabbing business, is the most reprehensible of all. I do not know what the Department can do. It certainly should be checked at the beginning. I believe it is an importation from abroad. Those who use a knife or other weapon to stab another person should be made to feel the full penalty of the law.

A good deal has been said about prisons. I do not want to have prison a paradise for anybody. The essentials of a prison are: cleanliness, good ventilation, useful occupations, good food and good reading material. Prison should be a place of correction. Occasionally it may be of benefit if lectures could be given on civic obligations and a person's duty to the State and other citizens. Prisoners should be encouraged in every way to reform their lives. I would not make the prisons so attractive that some prisoners would like to go back to them as they do in some cases.

The Minister was very wise in his decision to allow prisoners with good conduct records parole on certain occasions, such as a family bereavement or, perhaps, a festive occasion. That has worked well and it should be encouraged. It is gratifying to hear that those who availed of the privilege honoured their bond.

We saw recently in the public Press that the internees in the Six Counties have all been released. I believe that is good and it is more or less on a par with the Minister's attitude with regard to prisoners in this country. I agree that the internees in the North were in on a different type of charge; they were detained on suspicion.

The Minister went on to refer to the Border incidents. We all deplore them. They serve no purpose now. They are a reflection on ourselves because the whole circumstances have changed in the past three decades. We see today in the world around us that society is moving into two great camps —the democratic States with the old Christian concept and the Communists. We cannot afford in this little island to have divisions. We must assume the unfortunate people now in jail in Belfast are there because of our political troubles. Unfortunately, they are impregnated with the fall-out from our political troubles and also because of the lip service given to Partition over the years. I feel they were misled. They were carried away in their youthful enthusiasm and I am sure they are now disillusioned.

Some positive step should be taken by the Government, by members of the Government or by men in high places in co-operation with the Church dignitaries along the Border to ease this problem. Some effort should be made to approach the leaders who have any influence at all with these misguided youths. The Government would lose no prestige. Nothing but good could emerge from some effort to make contact with those people so as to influence the lads now serving in Belfast Jail. If that were done and any sort of understanding reached, I believe all of these boys would be released. We regret that they are there but we cannot in any way condone their actions.

A great deal was said about law reform. I am not a lawyer and I do not want to go into that. I believe we cannot advocate law reform here; the Chair would not allow it. However, there is one aspect of that matter which I could criticise. I refer to some obsolete regulations that still exist in this country in connection with land registration. It arises every day where there is transfer of a plot for a house or some transfer of land. In the old days, when the Land Acts came to be operated in this country, the question of equity was left in abeyance. Now we must go back two or three generations to clear the equities. It takes a lot of exhaustive searching. Solicitors are sometimes slow in assimilating the necessary facts and people are left without their money for years because of that. There should be a limit.

It may be assumed in most cases that the equities are only a matter of form. Something should be done to help the officials in the Land Registry to expedite the clearance of titles. I have been there very often. I received the greatest courtesy, expedition and efficiency from these officials. All along the line, from perhaps 60 or 80 or 100 years back, titles have to be examined and the position of the various people who had the property that was under transfer. Searches must be made. That involves undue delay. It is impossible for the officials in the Land Registry to act with expedition. The mapping Department is very congested. No praise of mine could be adequate for the service, help and expedition the officials in the Examiners Section give in the course of their business.

Mr. Coogan

In keeping with every other Department we see increases here. The only redeeming feature of the increases is the increase in detection. We are still behind all that is desired. I do not wish to say that it is all the fault of the Garda; we should go a bit of the road ourselves in the provision of proper equipment for the quick tracking down of crime. We should have more use in country districts of the two-way radio system. The Minister is beginning to try it around Cork and some other places but I should like to see it in other cities. I feel that when Gardaí are on the spot as quickly as they possibly can by the use of this equipment it helps to stamp out a lot of this crime. If we are in earnest, we should take steps to see that such equipment is provided throughout the country.

Mention has been made of children in court. We have a very peculiar position in our courts. We allow the public to look on at young children, some of whom are quite innocent except that they have been dragged into court by some blackguard a few years their senior. People may ask what the parents are doing. You will find, in most cases of children in court, that the father is away in England or somewhere else and that the mother is finding it very difficult to control them. One young blackguard in an area will contaminate the lot. He will be the cause of dragging decent children into court. Where that is the case, the court should always be held in camera.

It is time we had a ban on airguns and knives, be they flick knives or any form of knife. The Minister should take steps to ensure that children under 16 or possibly 18 years of age will not be permitted to have an airgun. By the time a boy is 18 years of age he will not be interested in them. Airguns have caused a lot of damage to windows and to lights and the young blackguard is never seen. If we had plain clothes men on the look-out I think we would get somewhere so far as stopping this form of crime is concerned.

So much for the use or abuse of airguns and flick knives. I want to refer now to our teddy boys, our young hooligans. There is hardly a night in country districts when you do not hear as much hooliganism as in the city. One can hear them rolling home in the middle of the night from dances. It is time the Garda were given a free hand to deal with such conduct. If our plain clothes men were given, as they say in our area, a few ash plants and the Minister said "Go ahead" they would put an end to a lot of hooliganism within a week. That is the only way to handle these gentlemen.

It is about time our plain-clothes men directed their attention to the number of hooligans who use profane language as easily in our streets as they would smoke a cigarette. If any Deputy walks from here to O'Connell Street at any hour of the day or night he will hear it. These hooligans think nothing of using it aloud in public. Of course if a Garda in uniform is passing he will not hear it. I am putting this before the Minister in the hope that he will adopt the method I suggest of dealing with those gentlemen.

Another matter that has been causing grave concern to parents is the facility with which young boys and girls can walk up the gangway of a boat at either the North Wall or Dún Laoghaire and set sail for England. We hear stories of children missing every day of the week. Last year when I raised this question the Minister's reply was that they could just as easily cross the Border into the Six Counties. At least, let us not make it too easy for them. Let us try to put a stop to it at some stage. It is the cause of great worry and hardship to parents to find that a child has disappeared overnight and probably is not found for months somewhere in Britain. There should be greater attention paid at our ports to stop this kind of thing. At one time it was necessary for people to have passports or permits. Now these are not necessary.

Another matter causing grave concern throughout the country is the question of the removal of remains of people killed or drowned from the scene of the occurrence. There has been very unfavourable comment throughout the country because the remains of such people will not be accepted by the local boards of health who say it is the responsibility of the Garda. There is no locality outside of Dublin where the Garda are properly equipped to deal with such matters and consequently remains have been left lying for hours because the Department of Health quibble about responsibility in the matter. It is time we definitely placed responsibility on the proper shoulders. We are supposed to be Christians so let us act as Christians should.

Hardship is being caused in the matter of the calling of juries. One remedy for this would be to have jury panels enlarged. It is most unfair in country areas to have a man coming to court day after day, not knowing whether he will be called this week or the next. Fathers of families are particularly worried and sometimes are put to grave losses. Recently we received a circular from the Women's Association of Social Workers requesting the extension of the right to serve on juries to women. I would not say we should force women into jury panels but if they volunteer for such work I think they should be accepted. I do not know what is the position in this respect but there are cases in which women jurors could play a very important part.

In the matter of recruitment to the Garda, I would urge the Minister to pay greater attention to the matter of sport, particularly boxing, in the force. There was great respect for the Garda when they were winning world championships. In those days they brought great honour to the country in the same way as the Army jumping team do at the moment. I hope the Minister will give attention to that suggestion.

On the question of films for children, we hear daily reports of children under 16 not being allowed into cinemas at night. The odd thing about it is that the same film has been shown at a matinée earlier that day. Is it only at night that the film affects their minds? Parents do not seem to know what a bad film is. On Sundays during the winter, when they want to get the children out of the house from under their feet, they pack them off to the picture house. How are parents to know what is or what is not a suitable film? Advertisements saying: "Children under 16 not allowed", are only an inducement to children to go and see them. The question of suitability of films for children should be stressed to a greater extent.

Another matter worrying our local authorities is the provision of suitable courthouse accommodation. It is about time that responsibility in this matter also were placed on the proper shoulders—those of the Department of Justice who, after all, get most out of the administration of the law. Some of this money should be ploughed back by way of grants to help local authorities meet the demands for more courthouses.

We are soon to have a new Traffic Act and now, before it becomes law, I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the necessity for more of the sticker-type warning for breaches of the law relating to traffic. It is quite common in Dublin and we should like to see that practice extended to the country. There is hardly a Deputy who does not break the traffic laws occasionally; I myself was pulled only a few days ago and I got my warning. Such warnings, given at the proper times, would serve to engender proper respect for the law.

I agree with the Deputies who drew the Minister's attention to the great need throughout the country for the renovation of Garda stations. Some stations are not fit for prisoners. In my own town, there is a station which is a great discredit to the Department. It is about time the Minister did something about it. Recently the Minister said he had no complaints in this respect. How could he when the members of the Garda are afraid that, if they did complain, they might be shifted out of the town? In conclusion, I should like to compliment the Minister on the manner in which he has handled his Department in the past few years. He has been most approachable and any member of the House who had occasion to go to him looking for justice was given justice.

Mr. Jones

The group of Estimates for which the Minister is responsible totals approximately £6¾ million but that sum does not bear any relation to the importance of the Minister's Department. It embraces the two arms of the law, the law officers who bring cases before the courts with the assistance of the Garda and the courts who enforce the law. While there might be minor criticism of the administration of justice, on the whole we are well served by our system which is well-founded. The people generally know that justice is to be found in the courts.

It is in regard to bringing culprits before the courts that there is some disquiet. As others have said, that is not the fault of the Garda whether uniformed, in plain clothes or members of the detective branch but it is due to the fact that nowadays crime is of an organised type. We seem to have had people coming in from abroad—and I might mention being successfully met on occasion in this country. In the ordinary way we have not the amount of co-operation which the public generally should give to those charged with the detection of offences and helping to bring offenders before the courts. One is tempted to ask: have we sufficient Gardaí at present to deal with the problem?

Looking at the Estimates before me I find that the Garda strength in all sections between 1960-61 and 1961-62 provides for an increase of approximately only 20. No doubt with modern advances, the use of mobile facilities such as the squad car may help to minimise the need for Gardaí but that is something that would apply in the cities more than in rural areas. My colleague, Deputy Manley, referred to this matter and said that it was regrettable that we had some rural stations shut down. If we have a Garda or two left in an area it assures the people there of somebody to whom they may look for protection in case of even petty crime in the area.

The Minister referred to technical developments of the present day and in that connection advances in respect of two-way communications are very helpful. No doubt in cities like Dublin and Cork—we are to have it also in Limerick—such systems may bring assistance more readily to people who find somebody on their property or discover some petty pilfering or something of that kind. It will help to bring offenders to justice more quickly.

We should, nevertheless, consider seriously whether we should not bring up the strength of the force to deal with present day problems. It has been said that what we want is a contented force. Naturally we were glad that the Garda recently got an award but there is one thing in that connection about which younger Gardaí—who are the important members nowadays—have a justifiable sense of grievance. It is the fact that something like £1 a week of their pay is deducted in respect of quarters. We should try to arrive at a fair decision as to what is a reasonable amount to charge these young men on their initial pay for the quarters provided. Where a number of men occupy the same room there should be a recognition of that; they should have no grievance in regard to the charge.

In rural areas where the local sergeant and Garda occupy what one might call a rural station, in a great many cases these are rented premises and the rents follow the pattern applicable in the area of the station, about £50 or £60. In those circumstances, to ask the officer occupying the premises to pay £1 a week would be manifestly unfair because then the State has the building for nothing. It has an office in which the local transactions of the Department of Justice are dealt with at little or no cost. In many cases in rural areas these premises do not provide the type of accommodation one would expect for £52 a year.

The Minister spoke of the reduction in crime at present. That is very welcome and so far as the Garda and the Department are responsible it is very praiseworthy. We would probably make further advances if our people gave that co-operation to the Garda to which they are entitled as our friends and protectors. I fear the spirit still prevails in the country whereby anything connected with bringing people before the courts is regarded as it was in the past, when the courts here were the seats of administration of foreign justice and were resented as such. Evidently we have not grown away from that and there is great need for a reawakening of a public sense of responsibility in these matters. Many public statements have been made by the Church at various times, by Ministers and by Deputies, and the Press have played their part but something seems to be lacking. I prefer to think that is due to the problem of juvenile delinquency at present but the juveniles of to-day are the men and women of to-morrow.

Nobody can deny that in this country as in other countries there is this problem, but it is not proportionately greater here as compared with other countries. It is mainly a problem of environment and the rapidity with which young people today grow up. A greater interest should be taken, I think, in the various social groups in inculcating in these young people a proper sense of their obligations to society in general and to themselves in particular. If the Department of Justice has any funds at its disposal, it could further the works of these groups and in that way make a worthwhile contribution to helping these young people towards forming proper ideas and acquiring a better sense of responsibility towards the part they must play in the community as a whole.

I come now to censorship. So far as film censorship is concerned, I do not suppose we will arrive at a more satisfactory solution than has been arrived at in other countries. It should be made incumbent on exhibitors of films to certify films in the same way as they are certified across the water. Certain films must be certified as suitable for adults only. Of course, sometimes such certification acts as a stimulus because people begin to think that there is something in the film which they ought to see. There are films which are definitely injurious to young people and young people should be prohibited from seeing such films, unless accompanied by an adult. That system works satisfactorily in England. Some young people might, of course, find an adult, but we would at least be making an effort to cope with the situation.

Over the years, film censorship has proved eminently satisfactory. I have noticed that young audiences invariably applaud the victory of virtue over vice and the triumph of the man of honour over the gangster. That is a very healthy reaction. But there are children who are, perhaps, mentally unstable and they resort to crimes of violence as a result of what they see in gangster films. We should use every safeguard to prevent regrettable happenings. It is distressing to find from one's reading of the papers that certain crimes are becoming more prevalent. Stringent steps should be taken to prevent the sale of knives. Indeed, I do not think even boy scouts should be armed with knives.

With regard to censorship of publications, anyone who reads Iris Oifigiúil must be gratified by the activity of the Board. They give a good account of themselves in banning undesirable publications. We have in the country very praiseworthy publications of a high standard. The Press sets a good headline. When undesirable publications imported into this country are banned—sometimes I wonder why those who publish them should think them suitable for export here—I do not think the ban lasts long enough. Three months or six months is not sufficient. The penalty should be much more severe. They should be banned for all time.

The work of the Adoption Board has expanded. They are doing excellent work. A constituent of mine brought one matter to my attention recently in relation to the long and the short certificate. In the ordinary way, the short certificate is acceptable but in the Department of Social Welfare, for some reason, the longer form is required. Surely, if the short certificate is suitable, it ought to be appropriate also in regard to the Department of Social Welfare. Perhaps the Minister would look into the matter to find if there is any good reason why the parents of adopted children should have to go to the trouble of getting the longer form of certificate when applying for children's allowances.

Mention has been made of courts and litigation and the suggestion was made that there should be help for people who are not able themselves to seek justice in the courts. I agree that perhaps in cases where the State charges a person with an offence which, on conviction, will deprive him of his liberty, or even involves a fine which might be considered severe, it might be unfair to expect a person to stand defenceless in the court without legal assistance. I know that in certain cases the State does give legal aid. In the ordinary way, if people feel they can break the law and then invoke the law to get them out of trouble, I could not see any great sense in that. There is however, something to be said for attempting to lighten the costs in regard to litigation generally. I know that in certain cases people have the right of appeal to the Minister and that the Minister has always dealt with these cases sympathetically and I am sure that in these cases justice was done and seemed to be done.

In regard to prisons, I notice that in the Estimate there is a substantial increase for buildings. I have not got the Board of Works details before me to see what is being provided but I suppose it is some new building. I should like to know what exactly is involved. I have had occasion to visit Portlaoise Prison and Limerick Prison and I must say that the standard of the staffs is commendable. There is nothing but courtesy and consideration for the people committed to their care. I was impressed by the standard of treatment given to these prisoners. There is a very humane approach these days to the rehabilitation of prisoners and to seeing that particularly the younger ones do not become habitual criminals. I should like to add my voice to the voices of those who mentioned that that approach should not only be maintained but strengthened. Anything in the nature of lectures or other activities which might improve the position should be adopted.

In regard to detention homes for girls, again I have not any knowledge about those in Dublin but I know of their efforts and their good work. I am very conversant with the work of the Good Shepherd nuns in Limerick city and I should like to plead with the Minister to increase the capitation grant. Twenty-five shillings a week for the care and maintenance of these girls is inadequate and I would ask the Minister sympathetically to consider increasing the grant because of the admirable work done by these people in attempting to get youth back again on to the right path before they have been tainted by prison experience. If we can keep our young people in such an environment when they are inclined to go off the rails, and if we can get them to adopt the good advice which they get, there is a reasonable chance that these young people who have to be committed for a time will not get into trouble again. The nation owes a debt of gratitude to the people who are running these homes.

The Ban-Gardaí were mentioned here tonight and doubts were expressed as to whether they justified their existence. To my mind, they have a very useful function and a very useful part to play in Dublin and Cork and in Limerick, to which they are to be extended shortly. They are particularly suited to deal with certain offences, particularly where women are concerned and where they have to be searched. I hope nothing will deter the Minister from providing a sufficient number of them to meet this need.

I should like also to refer to the question of uniforms for the Guards. There has been an advance in that respect and I am sure it has been very much appreciated, but I wonder could we go a little further and ensure that the uniform is the most comfortable that can be provided. This perhaps is a matter of administration and does not call for the Minister to deal with it, but it would help greatly if the Garda force in regard to conditions of pay, housing and clothing, could feel contented and could feel that the State, which imposes on them the obligation of protecting the citizens, preventing crime or detecting it when it has been committed, was looking after their interests. I do not think we could ever afford to equate our standards of pay with those in an industrial nation like that across the water where there is a much larger population. We should give them that which is in keeping with their responsibilities for the administration of justice.

In conclusion, I should like to say again that the work of the Department is very important but the efforts which are being made at the present time do not seem to be bearing the fruit which they should and they will not bear fruit without a measure of co-operation from the people generally. In that respect, whatever we can do in regard to lessening juvenile delinquency or crime we should do.

Reference has been made to the sale of "pep" pills and so on. I do not know how widespread the problem is or whether it is a problem but anything that will remove youth from these influences should be availed of. Another thing which seems to have crept in is the question of juvenile gambling which seems to be leading to the petty larceny of small sums of money for small-time gambling. Our best hope in that respect is the type of social services to which I referred earlier. We ought to make available whatever funds the resources of the State will allow to these social bodies in their attempts to channel youth into more healthy occupations. It is in that way that we can hope that the rising generation will see the fulfilment of the wishes of the Minister and his Department that every citizen will appreciate the rights of others and that nobody will attempt to use his position or his power to commit crime. There should be public condemnation of crime and public co-operation with the Department of Justice in its suppression.

Mr. Russell

First of all, I should like to refer to the size of the Estimate, in round figures about £6,000,000, which at first seems an impressive figure but when related to a population of three million is a very reasonable insurance against crime. As the Minister's report indicates, we do not suffer much from major crime. A major crime, such as murder, occurs very infrequently in this country. Generally speaking, the type of crime with which the law has to deal are minor crimes, mostly by juveniles, and petty crimes arising generally from excessive drinking, brawling or personal differences.

The revolution which has taken place quietly over the past 25 or 30 years in the Garda has gone largely unnoticed. It is only right that we should appreciate the manifold duties which now fall on a Garda officer compared with what the earlier members of the force had to do in their time. It is no exaggeration to say that as well as being an officer of the law, a Guard of today is very much a civil servant. He has to carry out a great deal of paper work and is responsible for the collection of statistics for various Departments, apart from the Department of Justice. By and large, his duties are wider and more responsible than those which fell to be discharged by the earlier members of the force.

For that reason, it is necessary to recruit young men of the requisite standard of education and intelligence. It is true to say that that is the type of young man who is coming into the Garda Síochána today but we who vote the funds to carry on the Department of Justice should also have regard to the fact that the outlook of the young man of today is far different and far wider in scope from the outlook of the earlier members of the force. A young recruit to the force today wants to feel that there is a career before him in that force comparable with that, say, in the Army or in many civilian occupations. It is only right to make the entrant to the Garda Síochána feel that he has the same status as persons going into various types of civilian employment or into the Army or the Air Force.

Some of the difficulties with which the Garda Síochána have to contend, at least in Limerick, are the sort of disturbances that arise from tinkers, of whom unfortunately, we seem to have more than our share in Limerick city. Another type of nuisance which, I am sorry to say, is becoming worse, if anything, is begging. I should like to ask the Minister's help in dealing with the problem in Limerick. These beggars, mainly young people, congregate outside hotels, the post office and other places in Limerick, creating a very bad impression, particularly on tourists coming into the city. They seem to know the rendezvous of tourists because where there are tourists, you inevitably find beggars. Many of them are quite young children who certainly could be stopped quickly. It is no good sending a Guard in uniform to stop this nuisance, because he can be seen a long way off.

The only way to cope with the problem is by the introduction of a small number of plain clothes Guards. Probably two or three would be sufficient in a city the size of Limerick. The problem has reached serious proportions in Limerick and the Minister may have seen references in the Press to it. I should like to avail of this opportunity to ask for his co-operation in putting it down because it is a continuing and very ugly type of nuisance.

I should like once again to draw the Minister's attention to the need for new Garda barracks in Limerick. I understand that steps have been taken to acquire a site but to date nothing concrete has been done in the matter. As the Minister will know, the main Garda barracks in Limerick is in the busiest street. It constitutes a major obstruction to the flow of traffic in William Street. I hope the Minister will be successful in his efforts to get a site and that the existing barracks, a very substantial premises, may become available for commercial or other use.

Other Deputies have referred to the question of legal aid. Candidly, I do not understand what amount of legal aid is available to persons who cannot afford to be represented professionally in court. I could not find any heading in the Minister's Estimates, apart from a figure relating to legal and technical aid of £250. Perhaps the Minister, when replying, would elucidate that matter for my benefit and that of other Deputies.

Several Deputies have referred to the question of prisons. Generally speaking, the conduct of our prisons can bear comparison with the conduct of prisons anywhere. A country such as ours should not be content to follow the legislation of other countries in the matter of humane treatment of prisoners but should lead in that regard. The Minister should not hesitate to introduce any innovation or improvement that will help to put prisoners back on the right road.

I should like to compliment the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary —I do not know which is responsible —for the introduction of the new white jackets on the Garda here on traffic duty in Dublin and the white batons. I do not know what other Deputies think of the innovation but I think it is a very good one. I hope the Minister will persist in his experiment. As a motorist, I think the Gardaí in this white jacket are much clearer and are a great help to motorists and pedestrians when they have to cross a street.

I should also like to ask the Minister's co-operation in getting sanction for the new traffic bye-laws in Limerick city. It is a matter of grave urgency that they be put into effect in Limerick. Like most other urban centres, the traffic problem in Limerick city has become very acute in recent years. It is absolutely necessary that these new traffic bye-laws should be put into operation as quickly as possible. The general question of traffic that has become such a problem all over the country is one which requires the active attention of the Garda.

Some Deputy referred to the fact that we no longer have the Garda boxing team. I should like to support the Deputy who spoke. I do not know whether the Minister could use any influence to have the Garda take up boxing again. Both inside and outside the country, they were a credit many years ago. It would be a very encouraging development if we could have them back again practising the noble art of self-defence. They have distinguished themselves in other spheres of athletics such as rowing. It would be a very good thing if the Garda were to take up boxing again throughout the country.

I should also like to support the Deputy who referred to the absolute necessity for the co-operation of the public in preserving law and order. When we come to think of it, the Garda is a very small force, indeed, in comparison with the total population of even this small country. There is no hope whatever of protecting people's rights, their persons and their property, if the co-operation of the public is not forthcoming. In recent years, we had some striking examples, particularly in the city of Dublin, of non-cooperation by the public. I hope that will not be the case generally elsewhere in the country. Two or three men cannot possibly be expected to control a crowd of 50 or 60 or, perhaps, 100 hooligans when a row of serious proportions starts. In fact, that is what happened in Dublin and I could say also elsewhere in recent years.

On the question of juvenile deliquents which has been referred to by every Deputy, I sometimes wonder if the Garda in their efforts to control these young hooligans—I think that is the proper name for them and not "angry young men" or any of these other fancy terms by which they have been called from time to time—are getting the full support of the courts. It is very distressing to read after an outbreak of blackguardism has taken place, in which public property has been seriously damaged, that only a nominal fine has been imposed by the justice. I think that next to the co-operation of the public, the Garda are entitled to the full support of the judiciary in putting down this type of crime. It may not be a serious type of crime but it is a growing type of crime.

In the world in which we live today, young men now apparently think that the right thing to do is to be tough and in some cases completely disregard the rights of people. That is growing in our country and is largely influenced by young men who have gone out of the country and who have come back with some of these advanced ideas as to what the rights of the people are. It is no use turning the other cheek. This will have to be put down strongly and without any question of sympathy towards these young hooligans.

Mr. Lindsay

The Department of Justice is a very important part of our Governmental make-up, it being the Department responsible at all times for the establishment of order and the preservation of order. In that I want to agree with Deputy Russell and those other Deputies who have asked for greater co-operation from the public with the police when the occasion calls for it. I do not think that at this stage of our history the excuse can be offered that lack of co-operation by the public can be attributed to what might be called the political hangover from the days that were. It is time we grew out of that and that people were not alone prepared to learn of their civic responsibility but practise it as occasion demands.

I remember a case in Dublin where the police had to take drastic action with crowds that were, to say the least of it, tending to become disorderly and in fact did become disorderly. A question was asked in this House which implied that the Guards had misbehaved themselves in some way and I was quite pleased at the time to see the present Minister for Justice took a firm stand in his reply and, in fact, commended the Garda for their activities on that occasion.

I should like also to be associated in commending the authorities for the recent pay increases to the Garda. In fact, the only thing that is wrong—I suppose it was the best that could be done, having regard to all the circumstances—is that these increases were not greater, because, as somebody said, the Garda authorities have had loaded on them considerably more work than I think was ever intended and certainly more work than the Garda ever bargained for themselves.

In the general application of the law and when they are acting as people keeping down crime, both from experience and from what people tell me and from my own knowledge I find that the Garda generally behave with great moderation. They are extremely courteous. That, of course, is not something that is to be applied solely to the new members of the Garda, although I notice that the Commissioner stresses courtesy to the public at every coming-out parade. I think the older men, the men who bore the brunt of the work in relation to the establishment and preservation of order here, were also courteous. They also did their business in a tremendously fine way. I think it is due to them that some tribute should be paid to them. The majority of them are now retiring from the force. It should be remembered even on the dim records of this House, which are not readily available to the public, that a tribute was paid to those men who are now retiring or who have gone in the recent past. In those circumstances, the younger men have a great example to live up to if they are to preserve the standard laid down for them then.

I take it that the Minister has no notion, so far at any rate, of revising the licensing laws as they exist. I know, of course, that on an Estimate such as this, it is not really possible to discuss legislation to the same extent as otherwise, but I do think that it would be a good thing to think over the necessity for area exemptions in the interests of tourism and also for a revision of the opening and closing hours on Sunday.

The building and renovation of Garda stations are not being proceeded with as speedily as they might. I still hold the view which I expressed here before, that the policeman who moves slowly, either walking or on a bicycle, has much better powers of detection than the people who are now described as mobile or, as popularly known, in the squad car. It is true the squad car is useful when help is needed but help would be brought sooner and more effectively on the scene if the Guards were more distributed and were able to detect what is going on around them in a more leisurely fashion.

On the question of juvenile delinquency, all of the blame cannot be attributed to either light sentences in the courts or to the fact that the Guards on occasion might allow certain things to pass, as it were, unnoticed. There would be far fewer juvenile delinquents if there were fewer adult delinquents and all this wave of what has been described by Deputy Russell as hooliganism is really due, to a very great extent, either to the easing or the utter abandonment of parental control. There is a tendency, not alone in this country but, I suppose all over the world, to give to youth a certain alleged independence at an age earlier than is good for them and certainly at an earlier age than was ever anticipated in the ordinary scope of family life. There is the old adage: "Spare the rod and spoil the child."

It may be that parents, for some reason not readily ascertainable or not readily understandable, are not able to exercise the same amount of control over their children as they used to exercise. Some people are inclined to blame the pictures and television. Deputy Russell even went as far as to say that these advanced ideas for youth were imported from other countries. That is a view to which I would not subscribe at all. In the sphere of law-breaking and blackguardiasm generally, we in this country do not need to import anything. We are human beings like people everywhere else; if we do not exercise parental control, things are likely to run amuck and these advanced ideas will operate within a family, with the result that the parents' words of advice or castigation are no longer effective.

Parents' organisations and, of course, the parents themselves within the individual families have a very grave obligation in this matter of juvenile delinquency. It is a very fancy name but how do juveniles become delinquents? Certainly there must be a stage at which they become delinquents. I cannot speak for the cities but I can speak for the rural areas. There is not the same degree of co-operation as there was between the parents and the teachers. There was a time and it is within my memory— and I hope that is not to be regarded as too long ago—when parents and teachers co-operated almost 100 per cent., in rural areas at any rate. When a child got punishment from a teacher, the parent would, first of all, try to understand what the reason for it might be and might speak to the teacher concerned. The whole matter would be discussed amicably and there was complete co-operation between the teacher and the parent to the ultimate betterment of the child.

Nowadays, it has become extremely fashionable for people often without reason—in isolated cases, certainly with good reason—to take actions against teachers for the assaulting of children. In very many cases, the insurance company covering the business settles for a small sum rather than have the expensive process of going into court and gets it made a rule of court. That then comes to be regarded as an award and all of the items in the statement of claim are accepted by the public as proved. This inspires people who otherwise might never take any action to initiate these spurious actions, as indeed many of them are. In the interests of peace, on the other hand, and the saving of expense, on the other, small awards are made. That is made a rule of court and gets headlines. One would imagine from such settlements that, up and down the country, teachers— particularly primary teachers, because these are the only people who appear to come under the lash—are maniacs for punishment. That is not true. It is only in isolated cases that it arises and it will be found that, whether the reason be good or bad, there is a reason for the teacher acting in that manner. It might be the wrong reason but it also might be from a good motive.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That subject would be more appropriate on the Estimate for Education.

Mr. Lindsay

I agree with the Chair but it is something that should be said. I might miss the Estimate for Education and might not get an opportunity of saying this. I do think all of that leads to juvenile delinquency. It causes a rot in the whole course of discipline. Therefore, the Minister may well be able to cooperate with the Department of Education, and with such parents' organisations as he can, in an effort to destroy the rot at the top, so that the children will not get it into their heads at a very early age that they can join forces with their parents against someone who is actually in loco parentis for the greater part of the day. That is perfectly reasonable and within the compass of the Minister.

There is very little to be said about the Department otherwise. Certain things need to be tightened up but, with the resources at our disposal, a very good job indeed is being done. I should like to conclude by again paying tribute to the Garda, not for their great ability to detect crimes, which is ever present, but for their great tolerance and moderation in pursuing the necessary inquiries. Other speakers have paid great tributes to the Ban-Gharda. I am sure they are extremely useful but, so far, I have been fortunate enough not to have had any dealings with them, administrative or otherwise.

Mr. Ryan

When I spoke on this Estimate last year, I prefaced my remarks by referring to the unsound practice of selecting the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána from outside the ranks of the Force. I indicated then that so long as I am a member of this House, and so long as I feel there is need to express disapproval of that practice, I shall continue to express it. I indicated then, as I indicate now, that my remarks are no personal criticism of the present holder of the office or of any of his predecessors who may have been selected from outside the force.

My criticism of that practice is based upon the view that we have, within the ranks of the Garda, many mature and experienced officers who are well fitted for the post of Commissioner. I believe, in selecting a Commissioner from outside the force, that one does untold damage to the spirit of the force itself, that one creates a spirit of bad feeling between the Commissioner and the regular members, and that one stops certain chances of promotion within the force itself.

It is quite apparent that in any force, be it an army, Garda, or any other disciplined force, if you select the head from outside the body itself, you stop the succession of promotion within the force, whereas if you select from within such a disciplined body a man of character, experience and ability, and promote him, you thereby create a flow or succession of promotion through the whole force. I appreciate that it is perhaps only once in a generation that you may appoint a Commissioner of the Garda. I sincerely hope the present Commissioner has many healthy and active years ahead of him. As I say, in making these remarks, I intend no criticism of him. They are a criticism of the principle of selecting a man from outside the force as head of the force.

I have endeavoured to find some illustration of this practice outside the country, and the only case I have been able to find is that which obtains in Great Britain. As I pointed out last year, there is an entirely different set of circumstances in Great Britain. The British police force is not a unified force such as ours is. It is a combination of local authority forces and, in such circumstances, it may well be not unwise to select as Commissioner a man who might be better by reason of not having any prior parochial loyalties.

In Britain also there is the opinion that the head of a Department, of a force, or a Minister of State is better by reason of not having any previous experience in the post and is therefore, able to exercise independent judgment and give decisions without the loyalties and affections which he might have, had he been a member of a force or a disciplined body. I believe our own history indicates that the Garda is a well disciplined body, and that it has been controlled for many years, fortunately, by men of mature judgment and wide experience, but I believe it is a reflection on the force itself to go outside it to select a person for the office of Commissioner.

The reason it is necessary to utter these remarks on this Estimate annually is that, in the normal course, when a vacancy arises in that office, the Government of the day make the appointment without referring the matter to the Oireachtas. The power of appointing the Commissioner lies in the Government of the day. We know, of course, that the Government of the day are advised by those in the Department of Justice and elsewhere who are in a position to advise them. It is in order to ensure that these advisers are made aware of the wide concern that exists, both within and without the Garda, that it is vitally necessary to refer to this matter annually, in the hope that when a future appointment has to be made, it will be made from within the Garda force.

We know there have been a number of resignations from the Garda in recent years, particularly of young men. There is a certain feeling that the opportunities of promotion are limited. We know for a physical fact that that is true. In the early days, members were recruited from a wide field and many of them were men of limited education. The highest education most of them had was primary school standard. That is no reflection on them; it is a mere recital of fact. Now, the ordinary "flat-foot" who patrols his beat may well be a better patrolman by reason of not having any higher education, but in this day and age when there are far more applications for the force than it can absorb, it is the better-educated, more highly qualified and more able man, who succeeds in becoming a member of the Garda. In many cases, it is the honours Leaving Certificate or Intermediate Certificate students who are recruited and, perhaps, for that reason the Garda force is better.

Men who have achieved that degree of education, men who have spent many years in acquiring that education, and whose parents have spent money on giving them that education, become frustrated and worried about their future in little or no time. They find themselves marking time in a force in which their chances of promotion are only one in five or six. That is one of the reasons for the number of resignations from the force in recent years, and I do not think an improvement in pay or conditions will necessarily remedy that position.

I believe, we have to go further. I believe the office of Commissioner will, in the long run, affect only one person in each of the various grades in the Garda: the grades of Deputy Commissioner, chief superintendent, superintendent, inspector, sergeant down to Garda. By choosing the Commissioner from within the force itself, you will help to improve the morale of the whole force. On that account. I would hope that on no occasion in the future will we seek to choose the Commissioner from outside the force.

Another argument advanced in favour of selecting the Commissioner from outside the force is that it might be dangerous to select as head of the force a man who has been a policeman all his life—that we might face a coup d'état by the police force. I believe that, if anything, we are too conservative here. It was alleged at one time there was a danger of such a coup d'état. We all know only too well there was no fear of that.

In the Book of Estimates, we note an increased provision of £7,199 for headquarters' staff. Since we discussed this Estimate last year, an appointment was made in that Department which, in the last year alone, cost just £5,000. Deputy McGilligan has already referred to it. One of our leading and more responsible newspapers has seen fit to take to task Deputy McGilligan and myself for criticising that appointment. I am not going to address my remarks now in answer to the leading article in that newspaper but in relation to the appointment itself.

I want to make it clear that my criticism of the appointment is not a criticism of the individual. I am sorry for the individual himself. I believe he is a young man of ability who can contribute much to the political and economic development of the country. I am sorry for him that he should have been launched into the governmental sphere through an appointment that is as unnecessary as it is undesirable. All criticism from the Fine Gael benches is focussed upon this office because it is unnecessary and unduly costly, even if it were desirable.

In addition to his allowance, or salary as it is now to be called because of the Bill introduced by the Government last year, of £1,000 which he earns as a member of this House, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice receives an additional £1,200 a year. Therefore, his position costs the taxpayers £2,200. Deputy McGilligan quoted Professor Parkinson to illustrate the operation of Parkinson's Law in relation to this unnecessary and undesirable appointment. He pointed out that the creation of this post has apparently created extra work. He referred to the boasts of extra work on the part of the Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government Party in general. I do not intend to follow that line; there is no need for me to repeat it.

However, I would repeat that the position of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice has necessitated the appointment of a private secretary to that individual who last year earned a salary of £1,017. He had to have somebody else to help him with the unnecessary work. He had a shorthand typist who earned last year £517. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice had to be allocated a motor car for his use as if it were his private property, and also two chauffeurs who are established members of the Garda. According to figures obtained from the Minister during the course of the last year, this cost £2,200. We find that the post, over and above any allowance made to Deputy Haughey as a member of this House, according to the figures we know, cost last year £4,930. In the next year with the ordinary increments to the private secretary, the confidential shorthand typist and the two members of the Garda, the cost will be over £5,000.

In the whole history of this State, when the very foundations of the State were in danger of being undermined, when our Garda force was much larger than it is today, when there was much greater need for members of the Government to be active in the Department of Justice, there was never need for a post of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice. Indeed, since the days of the previous Government, one of the responsibilities of that Department has been jettisoned, that is, the responsibility upon the Minister in relation to gun licences. I believe if we were to go through the Estimates over the years, we would find that many one-time responsibilities of that Department have since been offloaded on to other Departments, but for reasons best known to the Government, in 1960, an appointment of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice was made.

We have no hesitation in saying that that appointment was unnecessary and undesirable. We left it to the Government to justify it, if they could. How do they justify it? The matter was raised by me within one month of the making of the appointment when I asked the Taoiseach if he would say what duties had been assigned to the Parliamentary Secretary. Unfortunately, I was taken by surprise tonight and I have not got the actual reply before me, but I remember its substance. We were told that his duties were in relation to establishment matters in the Garda, matters which I say would not occupy at the outside more than three hours per week.

The Minister knows well, or ought to know, that under the Garda Síochána Act the day-to-day functions and duties and affairs of the Garda are vested in the Commissioner. If the Minister and his Department are interfering in that matter, it is about time they stopped doing it and, if they are, it is contrary to the powers conferred upon the Commissioner and the Minister for Justice by this House. If the Parliamentary Secretary is interfering in the affairs of the Garda, then he is doing it contrary to an Act of the Oireachtas and it is about time it stopped. The Minister may say there are certain establishment matters in relation to barracks and other matters that have to be attended to. We know well they have been attended to by the Department of Justice over the years. They certainly have not lacked attention because there was not a Parliamentary Secretary to look after them.

We were told also that the duties of the Parliamentary Secretary related to establishment matters concerning the courts of justice. Again, we know that the courts of Justice must work independently of the Executive or of the Oireachtas. In fact, the ordinary day-to-day arrangements of the courts of justice are primarily the concern of the judiciary and of the principal officers in the different court offices.

There is attached to the headquarters of the Department of Justice for some years an organisation and methods officer who investigates the workings of various court offices and such things. The establishment officer of the Department of Justice is also concerned with those matters but they are mainly functions which are proper to the administrative side of the Civil Service. They certainly are not political matters in which it is necessary for either a Minister or a Parliamentary Secretary to interfere.

Lest that was not a sufficient decoy to pretend that there was a necessity for the Parliamentary Secretary, we were told also he is concerned with establishment matters in, of all great institutions, the Public Records Office and the office of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests. Both of these offices are almost insignificant from the headquarters point of view. The amount of work a Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister could possibly bring himself to do in relation to them, even if it were a busy year for work in relation to these insignificant offices, would be one hour a week.

Therefore, on the answer of the Taoiseach himself, the total amount of man hours the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister could possibly occupy himself with in any one week would not be more than five hours— and that would be exceedingly generous—and the Taoiseach and the Minister and his Department know that well.

Mr. Traynor

I do not know any such thing.

Mr. Ryan

It must take the Minister and his colleagues an awful long time to come to a routine decision. These are purely routine matters. If the Minister has not time to do it, I should like to know what he is spending his time on. He is occupied far less frequently in this House than the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Education, in fact than almost any Minister you can pick from the Front Bench. I challenge the Minister or any member of the Government Party to look over the debates of this House for the past year. It will be found that the Minister for Justice had far fewer Parliamentary functions to perform than most of his colleagues on the Front Bench.

Was ever such nonsense repeated in this House? I do not know what the Minister means by that. You would think it was a nation-wide census of the population. It does not take any more than six months to enumerate the 2,750,000 of other people in the country.

On the Estimate for the Department of Justice for years back, you will find Deputies complaining about the inactivity of the Department in relation to the itinerants problem. I believe that commission was appointed so as to silence the justifiable criticism that arose from all quarters concerning the itinerants problem and the inactivity of the Department of Justice and of local authorities in relation to the problem. Those of us who are vehement and forthright in our criticism of the manner in which itinerants behave are sometimes compared with an Eichmann or a Hitler, the insinuation being that we would like to put them all into concentration camps. That is the type of cheap argument which gets us nowhere.

I believe in liberty of the individual. I believe that the liberty of the individual is the liberty of any individual to do what he likes so long as he does not restrict the liberty of other people to enjoy the happiness to which they are entitled. We know for a fact that itinerants do not respect the rights of other people. They do not respect the rights of private property or of people to peace in their own homes. We know it to be a constant occurrence for itinerants to call at the homes of people in the country and in the cities looking for charity. If it is not given to them to the extent to which they want it they threaten the people and the threats are frequently succeeded by actual interference with private property and by actual violence.

I appreciate the ordinary difficulties of the Garda in facing this problem. They have not the co-operation which they ought to have got from local authorities but still they have not done their share. I asked a number of questions over the past year about the number of pounds in Dublin city into which wandering horses, which in the main belong to itinerants, could be put. There was a sneer from that great officer of the Government, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice, when I asked a question last October as to when a pound would be provided on the south side of Dublin. I was told that one had been provided. Unfortunately, the general public were not aware of this. When I looked into the matter, I discovered there is a small pound in Churchtown which is supposed to cater for all the wandering animals, horses, and so on, belonging to itinerants on the south side of Dublin and, indeed, for a portion of the north side.

The Minister knows for a fact, or he ought to know if his Garda officers have reported complaints to him, that most of the itinerants' encampments in Dublin are to be found on Corporation estates, in places which have been reserved for what Acts of the Oireachtas call the housing of the working classes.

The people of Mount Merrion, too, were pestered for a long time but the tinkers have now gone out to my area—to Drimnagh, Crumlin, Inchicore. In these areas there are many decent people trying to keep houses and gardens tidy and neat. There are people who, after long hours of work, have to cycle home at night. They find their gardens ruined by wandering horses; many of them are put in danger of their lives, cycling on dark roads obstructed by wandering horses. They are even molested on their own doorsteps by these tinkers. Any vacant plots in the area are ruined by filthy refuse.

I got in touch with the local superintendent of the Garda only to be told that it was the responsibility of the local authority. I got in touch with the local authority, who referred me to the superintendent of the Garda. The buck is being passed even more quickly than ever, since this commission was established. The excuse is now being given that it is a very difficult problem, that it cannot be solved overnight. That is purely a Pontius Pilate attitude and the Minister knows that very well. A situation should not be tolerated in which anyone, be he an itinerant or a private individual, is permitted to interfere with the liberty and the lawful rights of other people.

I am told that in Cork itinerant encampments are not permitted inside the confines of the city. Prosecutions are brought in respect of each day an encampment is found inside the city boundary, but here in Dublin you cannot get anyone to accept responsibility. You cannot get any authority to take prosecutions and the result is that it is permissible for anyone to occupy a plot of land and to stay there for a fairly lengthy period until the local residents become so infuriated that they take the law into their own hands. It is only when people set about physically removing the tinkers that the Garda step in to stop a breach of the peace. Sooner or later there will be some serious violence done and the blame for it will lie on the Minister, the local authorities and the Garda.

It so happens that within a few months of his appointment to solve this problem of the tinkers, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice was relieved of this onerous duty. An excuse then had to be found to continue an appointment which the Taoiseach said at the time was only a temporary arrangement. I ask members of the Government Party to look back on the Taoiseach's reply to me in May of 1960. He said the appointment of the Parliamentary Secretary to this Department was only a temporary arrangement while urgent law reform work was being done. He said there would be no necessity to make it a permanent appointment. A year later I asked him when the appointment would be terminated. We accepted at the time that it was to be only a temporary arrangement and I now charge the Taoiseach with saying that it would be temporary when he knew that it would not be.

The Taoiseach had never any intention of dismissing the Parliamentary Secretary as soon as the temporary work the Department had to do was terminated. I strongly deplore that the head of an Irish Government should have tried to get out of an embarrassing situation by pretending it was purely a temporary appointment. He hoped then that we would let the matter drop. Well, we have not let the matter drop. Our criticism now is as it was then—that there was never a need for the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice and nothing the Government or Government spokesmen have said in the meantime has convinced people who know anything about it that there was a necessity at any time for such an appointment.

The matters mentioned as justifying the appointment would take only a few hours a week. The Parliamentary Secretary went to a Fianna Fáil meeting and delivered a learned address about the need for law reform, but one of the significant things about it is that it could take the Department two years to prepare a White Paper to justify this urgent need for law reform to such an extent that it required a Parliamentary Secretary as a permanent assistant to the Minister for Justice. Not so very long ago, it was said we should not carp and criticise because the Minister for Justice needed a lawyer to help him with the law reform Bills because the Minister in the last Government had the assistance of many lawyers, including the Taoiseach and the Attorney General.

I have as much respect as anybody for the Minister, both as an individual and because of the service he has rendered the State, but if it be that the peculiar needs of the Department of Justice are such that a layman like the Minister is unable to cope with them, the Taoiseach has power to re-arrange his Cabinet so as to provide for the appointment of a lawyer to the office of Minister for Justice. It is not for me to suggest how he should reorganise his Government but it is open to him to do so. That would have been the proper course for him to have taken.

It is not without significance—and I do not intend any disrespect—that a non-practising barrister such as the Parliamentary Secretary is eligible for jury service. The reason is that a non-practising barrister is presumed not to know the law. I repeat I am not saying that as a criticism of the Parliamentary Secretary's ability, but it is significant that the law presumes that such a person as the Parliamentary Secretary does not know the law.

I would also point out that the law reform measures introduced here in recent months were on the stocks from the days of the last Government. The former Attorney General, Deputy McGilligan, has clearly indicated that, as have several members of the previous Government. Some of the Bills which have since become Acts had, in fact, been in their formative stages in the Department of Justice for years past. They were not even inaugurated and set on foot during the last Costello Government but as far back as 1948 and 1949. Should anybody care to look at the statute book, he will find that the major law reforms were carried out in the days of the John A. Costello Governments because the irrefutable facts are that the law reform now being put through the Oireachtas was in its embryo stage years ago because of the interest the then Taoiseach and the then Attorney General took in the matter.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 9 May 1961