Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 May 1961

Vol. 189 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"—(Deputy McGilligan).

Mr. Davern

I must, first of all, compliment the Minister on the peaceful conditions obtaining in the country. No doubt peace and prosperity go hand in hand, and it is only natural to expect that in the prosperous era in which we are living, the people will be content and will have a greater respect for law and order. I am sure the Minister has often visualised the day when a village policeman will be sufficient to maintain law and order and I think we are heading towards that day. After 700 years of enslavement, it is only natural that people should resent laws of any kind, good or bad. I would say that in the past 40 years, great progress has been made in that direction. The progress which has been made is really astonishing, and various Ministers for Justice must be complimented on the tactful way in which their officials and members of the Garda have handled these very difficult situations.

I want now to make an appeal to the Minister. I want to make a very special appeal for many of the Garda to whom medals have been duly awarded because of their services to the country. I believe they should get an extension of even one year. The distinction made as between members of the Garda who have military service medals with bar, and those who have military service medals without bar, is altogether too great, and there is no justification for it.

I am in a position to say—and because he held very high rank at one time the Minister is in a better position than I to say—that the reason many of the men did not qualify for pensions was not the lack of service, not that they did not obey orders, not that they were not as good as the men who got military service awards, but perhaps that they were less fortunate. As I say, the distinction made between the two is altogether out of proportion. I am appealing now to the Minister to give these men an extension of even a year. Not so many of them are left now, and in a couple of years, they will all be gone. They gave good service in difficult times and, with few exceptions, we saw very little political bias on their part. That is astounding when one considers the position when they first joined the Garda.

There are many officers and men with medals without bar who have given splendid service. Some of those officers served under me, so I ought to know. They did not try to make a case for themselves before a Military Service Board and that is the main reason they did not get a pension. Some of them should have got a pension and I appeal to the Minister to have their cases examined again. Where he finds a bona fide case of service to the nation, the Garda or the officer should get an extension of the period. In another year or two, most, if not all, of them will have gone.

I have every confidence in the young men who are now coming on. I differ from Deputy Dillon in that regard. He seemed to get all hot and bothered at the idea of a young member of the Garda. I do not know whether or not he was serious when he said he did not have the same complacent feeling in regard to them as he had in regard to the older men. I hope he was not serious when he said that, because I should hate to think anyone in this country was not prepared to give to the new members of the force the same confidence as they had in the older men. So far as I know, they are a fine body of young men. They are young and active and no doubt, as time goes on, they will settle down and will have even greater respect for the people's rights. One thing every police force must have is a wholesome respect for the rights of the people and, in that regard, we have found them, on the whole, pretty satisfactory. I do not know whether it was to the Garda or the Ban-Gharda Deputy Dillon was referring to, but I hope he was not serious in regard to either of them.

Again, there are many young Gardaí who are contemplating marriage and in many towns they find that their prospects of getting houses are nil. The older men came into the towns when great housing schemes were in operation. They were lucky perhaps to get houses, and many of them now intend to remain in the towns in which they are living when they retire. The fact that they are welcome to remain in the towns is a great tribute to them.

It would be too much of a tax on local authorities to provide new houses again for the young members who have joined the force in recent years. Therefore, I earnestly ask the Minister to urge on the Government the provision of a new housing scheme for the Garda. There are other reasons, too. It is bad for a young Garda to be under a compliment to anyone for the tenancy of a house, through subletting or otherwise, and he will always find himself to an appreciable degree under a compliment to a person who either gets a house for him or owns the house in which he is living. On the whole, it is bad for Gardaí to be under a compliment to anyone. They should have their own homes independently of anyone else.

While I agree that great steps have been taken in regard to new Garda barracks, much remains to be done. Some of the barracks are not fit for human habitation, even in frugal comfort. I believe there should be large barracks with married quarters to meet that difficulty to an extent, at any rate. Some of the old barracks are definitely not up to standard and yet the men must remain in them. Many of them are really quite bad.

I regret that some barracks which were in quite good condition were closed. Their geographical position had all to do with the case. Personally I do not think it wise to close down many barracks just yet. I notice that where barracks are being closed down the people are not as contented or confident as when they are left open. That is a natural reaction. Garda give their time, apart from their heavy duties, to promote athletics and other sports. Some Gardaí are also interested in drama and other cultural matters. It is very true then to say that they are missed when they leave an area.

I suppose the closing-down of barracks is a sign of peace. Nevertheless, I think such action is somewhat premature. I have in mind in particular mountain areas. The Minister should not give poteen-makers a free field. I am sorry to say we have a lot of the old bootlegger type of person in certain areas. It is a poisonous and dangerous brew. It is responsible for an increase in the numbers in mental homes. It is responsible also for breaking up many family homes.

I appeal to the Minister to make certain that the foul crime of poteen-making will be followed up to the last. I appeal to him to be merciless with those people who participate in this nefarious practice. No doubt they do it for the benefit of their pocket. It represents a loss to the revenue which is infinitesimal as compared with the great danger it does to whole areas. An area may be located a long distance from a licensed premises. We may come across persons who are intoxicated and inebriated with this foul product called poteen. With the price of whiskey and other spirits so high, it is only natural to expect that there would be ready customers for this brew. We know it is on the increase. The Minister knows it is on the increase. The Department of Justice knows it is on the increase. The Garda know it is on the increase. While we are doing a lot to stamp it out, I think we should do even more. It is raising its hideous head now in places where poteen-making has hitherto been unknown. There are terrible dangers to the community in that foul practice.

It would be much better if Garda barracks were occupied and occupied with more men rather than to reduce the number of men in areas where that terrible evil obtains. I sincerely hope that more and more thought will be given to the closing-down of barracks. The people in areas where barracks have been closed down have many legitimate complaints. A sergeant signs many documents and even a Garda signs some documents. It can be a great inconvenience to the public in an area where a barracks is closed down. In passing, I shall make a slight reference to the Intoxicating Liquor Act.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy would not be in order in so doing.

Mr. Davern

I have no intention of dwelling on the subject except to say that that Act has now been in force for a year. I would ask the Minister to reconsider something that rural Ireland wants and that is the opening and closing of licensed houses to coincide with summer time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot permit the Deputy to continue on that subject because other Deputies would be entitled to discuss the Act if the Deputy were allowed. The Deputy is not in order in discussing legislation.

Mr. Corish

Is that not a matter of administration?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is seeking an amendment of the law.

Mr. Corish

I do not think it needs an amendment, does it?

Mr. Traynor

He is advocating legislation.

Mr. Corish

Would it mean legislation to fix the time?

Mr. Traynor

It would, of course

Mr. Davern

New time, summer time, will never be accepted in rural Ireland as a whole. There are parishes here and there but I should like the Minister to bear that point in mind now. Rural Ireland cannot be denied that amenity. It has been denied enough.

I congratulate the newly-appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice. I hope that during his term of office he will see a peaceful Ireland. I am sure he will do his best to achieve that end. He occupies a position to which he is fully entitled. Some remarks have been passed in this House which were most uncalled for. Some people seem to lose their heads when they talk about seniority. If somebody is appointed because of seniority or because of ability, it is unfortunate that there is a trait in many of our people that, no matter what good foundation there may be for the appointment, they look for some wretched reason or another to decry it.

Another section of the community who present a problem are the teddy-boys. I feel that more authority should be given to the Garda to deal with gentlemen who wreck trains and towns. They came into the peaceful town of Clonmel. They wrecked the town. They wrecked some nice decent public houses in which decent customers are catered for. Those blackguards came in and wrecked the place before the Garda could get to them. I can tell you that when they come again they will get the devil's own surprise. They will not go back intact. I can assure you of that. The young men of the town of Clonmel were prepared to help the Garda. These gentlemen left just in time—and "left just in time" is right because only about half of them——

Mr. Corish

The worst thing about it is that they got down to Clonmel and Wexford for 6/- return.

Mr. S. Browne

Leave it to the locals to deal with them.

Mr. Corish

If they did the same for G.A.A. supporters they would have much more money in C.I.E.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Corish

Dalymount, then.

Mr. Davern

If a Garda draws his baton and strikes one of those teddy-boys who is committing an unlawful act there is probably an inquiry of some kind. Therefore he is afraid to do that. There should be no inquiries for scoundrels. It was never intended that blackguards with drainpipe trousers should interfere with the people's freedom or take advantage of decent people who want to go out and enjoy themselves. People from the city want to go out on Sundays and enjoy themselves, without being involved in a "war" of any kind. I congratulate C.I.E. on what they did, but I sincerely hope that the Minister will give carte blanche to the Garda to deal with these gentlemen as they should be dealt with. There is only one way to deal with them but perhaps it would not be very nice to say it here. I hope he will deal with them in a way they will not forget.

Mr. D. Costello

I want to intervene briefly to raise a few points on this Estimate. My first point concerns the provision of free legal aid to poor prisoners. It is a matter which I have raised before on this Estimate and I should like the Minister to look into it. At present the position is that the only way in which a poor prisoner can obtain free legal aid is if he is subject to a charge on a capital offence. It seems to me that we should have a system of free legal aid for poor prisoners. I doubt if we could afford the elaborate system that exists in England for legal aid in respect of civil as well as criminal matters, but it appears to me that there are instances of injustice where a poor person who is charged with a criminal offence has not got the legal aid which he could have under a system analogous to that which operates in England.

I do not wish to suggest that the justice, or the judge, or the jury trying the case, or the prosecuting counsel or the Guards or solicitor, are in any way unfair to a prisoner or an accused who appears on his own. In fact, the contrary is frequently the case and the person who is not represented by solicitor or counsel frequently has the law leaning over backwards in his favour. Nonetheless, prisoners who have not got professional representation because of lack of means do suffer hardship as a result of it and I would ask the Minister to consider adopting the system of wider legal aid.

Another point to which I should like to refer is that of law reform. Law reform is something which although not a matter in which many people may appear to be interested, nonetheless affects the lives of many people. I should like to see the formation of a permanent law reform committee. There are, all the time, matters arising as a result of decisions in the courts, of new aspects appearing in existing legislation, and all the time there is a necessity for reviewing present legislation and our present legal code. A law reform committee should be established whose task it would be to examine the decisions that occur from time to time, examine the changing circumstances, and make recommendations for reform of the law. This question of law reform is not a matter which should be left in abeyance until codified Acts can be brought in. It is not a matter which should be left aside until the time of sometimes very hardworked officials, or Parliamentary time, is made available. It is a matter which should be continually under review and legislation should be constantly brought in to deal with changing circumstances.

The third matter to which I wish to refer is the question of the control of traffic and the accidents that arise on our roads to such an appalling degree. We have been dealing with road traffic legislation but the problem of road accidents is not by any means solely a matter for legislation; it is a matter for the enforcement of legislation, particularly by the Garda. Part of the way in which road traffic legislation could be enforced is by means of more Guards on motor cycles. At present the Guard on the motor cycle is quite a rare sight and certainly he is a sight which is likely to make the driver of any vehicle drive with greater caution and care. At present expensive cars, manned by two or three Guards, are used for pattrol, whereas the motor cycle with one Guard would do the work just as efficiently and possibly more efficiently.

One final matter is this: why do we treat Northern Ireland as a foreign country for the purpose of our administration of justice? Would it not be simpler for us to decide that Northern Ireland is not outside the jurisdiction of our courts for the purpose of serving writs or civil bills and summonses on residents in Northern Ireland and also for the purpose of enforcing judgments obtained in Northern Ireland courts? This is a matter on which there could be cooperation between the two parts of the country. It is a matter in which the administrators of justice both in Northern Ireland and here have a mutual interest. It seems to me that it would be a fruitful field for discussion and cooperation between the authorities in the two parts of the country.

Even, however, if the authorities in Northern Ireland did not wish to give us reciprocal rights with regard to the enforcement of judgments, the issuing of summonses and civil bills out of the jurisdiction, I still think we could in this part of the country decide that Northern Ireland need not be a foreign country for the purpose of serving summonses and issuing civil bills. It would not be too difficult to devise legislation —and I know, Sir, that I am trespassing on your generosity here—to bring about a situation in which a summons could be served in Northern Ireland without the necessity of applying to the court for liberty to serve out of the jurisdiction. Similarly a civil bill could be served without the necessity of applying to the courts if the person was resident in Northern Ireland. It is, as I said, a matter which could be a field for fruitful cooperation between the two parts and even if it were not forthcoming, it would be efficacious for our own legal system and for the better administration of justice generally.

Mr. Corish

I want to make only a few brief comments on this Estimate and to raise some matters which I raised over the past few years. I should like to support Deputy Davern in his plea for some action by the Department of Justice in regard to houses for Gardaí. It is true, of course, that in certain circumstances local authorities in certain areas have made available local authority houses to members of the Garda, but that has not been the practice and I do not think it would be too harsh for me to say that there are not a lot of local people who have sympathy with Gardaí generally who are seeking accommodation, in any case, the married Guards.

The Minister has an admirable opportunity to do something in view of the recent Local Government legislation which established a housing trust whose function is to build houses which the local authority would not normally build in an area where there are new industries and an increase in employment. They have also permission, I believe, to build for members of the Garda. I know that this building cannot be done indiscriminately and I appreciate that it might not be proper to erect two or three houses in a small village solely for the Garda. I suggest, however, that in towns over a certain population a certain number of houses should be made available for these unfortunate people who, as has been described, though not by Deputy Davern, blow into a town.

For the first two or three years they are nobody's children. In the fourth year they become known. They become established socially. Only then will they be considered for a house. Many a young married man, his wife and children, have been driven demented seeking proper accommodation for years. They live in flats and broken down houses, accommodation quite unsuited to their occupation. When the Minister comes to wind up this debate I shall be pleased if he will tell us what steps will be taken by this new housing trust, established by the Minister for Local Government, to provide houses for members of the Garda.

I support Deputy Costello's plea for more traffic cops, or courtesy cops, in the city of Dublin. They are much more effective than ordinary Gardaí on foot. I committed a small offence recently and one of these traffic cops came after me and read the Riot Act. Mark you, I shall not offend again after the same fashion. I upset the traffic. This man told me where I had gone wrong. I did not act deliberately or maliciously. As far as I was concerned, he did much more good than an ordinary Garda who, because the offence appears to be trivial, does nothing about it; if he were to do anything, quite a good deal of time would be consumed in examining my taxation, licence, insurance certificate and so forth. If there were more traffic cops people would become more traffic conscious. Certainly my recent experience will result in a contribution, through me, towards making the general public in the city of Dublin especially a little bit more traffic conscious. More traffic cops could be very effective.

With regard to censorship of films, the Minister has indicated by way of reply to a Parliamentary Question that he appreciates the problem of suitable films for children. He is anxious to do something, but he says there is not much more that he can do. I believe in the sincerity with which he considered the problem but I believe also that he can do much more to guard youth against undesirable films.

I am not speaking now of immoral or dirty films. Some time ago there was mention in this House of a film entitled "The Summer of the Seventeenth Doll". That was a film which carried in all its notices, except on the occasion to which Deputy Ryan referred here, the information that persons under 18 would not be admitted. Could not that tag be much more widely employed? I saw that film and I do not believe it would do any harm to children because, whilst the theme was unchristian and un-Irish, the film would be entirely beyond the minds of young children. There are other films to which young people gain access at matinées. They are films which should not be shown to children at all. Yet that type of film is shown every day in the week here in Dublin and in provincial towns to impressionable youngsters from 10 to 14 years of age. It is fantastic that we should permit that situation to continue.

People are afraid of their lives of the word "censorship". One would imagine we were the only country which had censorship. They talk about the works of this great artist and that great artist, this great writer and that great writer. We are told we are narrow-minded because we will not allow certain pictures and writings in here. It is going altogether too far when we become so fearful of offending certain people. The films to which I refer are all right for those who have passed adolescence. I had occasion recently to take my children of 10 and 11 years of age to a film. I thought the film was all right but I was certainly astonished when I actually saw it. I took the children in good faith. It was a film they should not have seen.

Films are a legitimate part of our amusement. They are an innocent amusement. At the same time, it is vital that we should safeguard young children from danger. I do not want to place entire responsibility on the Minister. I do not expect him to do any more than he can do. If it is possible, through the Censorship Board, to have this tag that children under 18 years of age will not be admitted then he should insist on the Censorship Board being a little bit more strict and insisting on the use of that tag much more frequently than it is used at present. We do not really get bad, dirty, immoral films here as far as adult censorship is concerned.

My plea is directed towards ensuring that children of impressionable years will be protected. Some may say that it is the duty of parents to safeguard their children. Consider the tens of thousands of parents who, having endured their children the whole week, so to speak, are glad to give them 6d., 8d. or 1/- on a wet Saturday or Sunday afternoon to get them out of their sight for a couple of hours. No one can blame parents for that. As legislators, we have a duty, the Department of Justice has a duty, and the Censorship Board has a duty to ensure that the films these children see will not be such as to damage or incite young minds.

Much the same arguments can be advanced against the cheap novels coming in here, the paperbacks. I appreciate the Board's task but I am surprised to discover that only a few hundred of these books are censored. The Minister should explain to us how the Board operates. As far as I can gather, the only books censored are those sent to the Board by some people who have a suspicion about the books. Last year there were something like 600 of these paperbacks censored. There are tens of thousands coming in. Most of them should not be allowed in. It would be a fultime task for dozens of people to censor all these books.

If it is not the practice already, I suggest that if a book under the name of a particular writer finds its way into this country and is one which should be banned, all that writer's books or the publisher should be banned for a certain period. It is impossible for the Censorship Board to read through all these books and determine whether or not they are fit for public consumption. Let nobody misunderstand me. I refer exclusively to these productions which are churned out in England, America, or some other place not for their story or literature but for the filth that is in them. They are still coming into this country and either the writer or the publisher should be banned for a period or forever.

I would like the Minister to apply his mind to the problem of the treatment of boys of a certain age who commit petty offences. Many of these boys prior to their teens get into trouble, steal from shops, do damage to public property and so on. What happens to them is that they are prosecuted by a Garda and after a few weeks are brought before the district court. These are not serious crimes. They are petty offences which I will not say are natural for children to commit but they hardly merit the serious trouble in which the wrongdoers are involved. These children are very much affected by the situation which confronts them and their parents are worried and annoyed at the trouble the children have brought on them.

I wonder does it do any real good, especially in respect of children between the ages of nine and 16 years, to bring them before the courts for these offences? The offences to which I refer are regarded as petty crimes by the members of the Garda and I would suggest that the children concerned should be brought immediately before a member of the Garda of the rank of inspector or superintendent and given a warning. To give the members of the Garda their due, there are many cases in which they do not prosecute at all, especially in cases such as I have mentioned— stealing apples, pulling at trees or breaking electric light bulbs. No later than the other day I saw a member of the Garda reprimand a child of about eight years of age for some such misdemeanour. That would have much more effect on a young boy than being brought to the district court three or four weeks afterwards. The members of the Garda should have discretion to give a reprimand or a severe warning rather than have to bring children of a tender age to court.

Apropos of that, I wish to make a suggestion to the Minister for Justice. Again it appears like placing on him responsibility which is not really his. As Minister for Justice he and his officials are charged with enforcing the law and that may appear to be the be-all and end-all of their every activity in relation to such enforcement. I would suggest that lectures in civics be given frequently by members of the Garda in the various cities, towns and villages. The boys and girls now growing up—and I suppose they are no different from what we were—are not civic-minded. It should be sufficient to give one half-hour lecture per year to each class in the schools which would to a great extent eliminate the vandalism which is life. Anybody looking around any provincial town will see ornamental trees or shrubs planted a short time ago broken down to the butt. It is a great temptation to boys to take a pot-shot at electric light bulbs and cause other damage. Such civic lectures, whether given by the Garda or by the teaching profession, would impress upon their minds that every time they damage property their parents have to pay for it through the rates. I hope the Minister will convince his colleagues in the Government of the necessity for such lectures to ensure that our boys and girls will become more civic-minded.

Mr. Cosgrave

There are a few matters on this Estimate to which I should like to refer. In common with other Deputies, I am glad the Minister has continued the law reform proposals initiated by the previous Government. Many of the changes made are most desirable and in many respects we in this country have lagged behind law reform generally. I have no doubt that some of the reforms which are promised will be generally welcomed. Indeed, it is obvious that quite a considerable volume of work still remains to be done in that sphere. There is, however, one matter which it seems to me could be considered in connection with proposals for reforms, that is, the modernisation of court procedure. In the main, most of the procedure adopted here has been in operation for many years. In fact, quite an amount of the procedure dates back before the beginning of the century, and, with changes that have taken place in the mode of life since then, there is a very strong case for a more up to date approach to these problems.

The changes required could, in the main, be carried out without legislation; in fact, administrative action is all that would be required. The mere fact that the existing procedure has been in operation for many years is no reason it should continue in certain cases. On the other hand, some of the procedures in operation could probably not be improved on. I think the Minister in conjunction with the Attorney General, the judicature, the Bar Council and the Incorporated Law Society might consider this matter.

I mention it for this reason, that it is generally recognised that costs of litigation are extremely high. Some of these costs are unavoidable. Certain types of actions involve expenses that could probably not be lessened to any considerable extent, but where out of date procedure, such as the method in which actions are commenced, the filing of documents and so forth, is concerned, in these matters any reduction that could be justified, while at the same time affording all concerned a full opportunity of exercising their legal rights, would indeed be desirable. Quite recently this matter was the subject of comment in an article in the Irish Independent and some of the suggestions in that article were, I thought, certainly worth while considering. So far as reforms are concerned, these are some of the matters which in the general consideration of reforms the Minister might bear in mind.

Reference has been made in the course of this debate to the work of the Garda. I would like to express the view that, in the main, the Garda, who do very good and satisfactory work, should concentrate on serious crime rather than on less serious offences. I believe that in the main that is what is done by the force and that is the general line of policy laid down for all ranks. It does seem to me, however, that there are certain matters that receive attention and indeed probably more attention than is necessary.

One of these is after-hours drinking. Where only technical breaches of the law are involved, I do not think the aim should be to secure the conviction either of the publican or of the offender. If, on the other hand, a situation developed in a particular premises or a particular district that had become or was likely to become a grave abuse, then it is obvious that the Garda should take whatever steps are necessary; but merely acting for the purpose of securing a conviction because a person is found on the premises a few minutes after closing time, which does not seem to me to be a very serious offence, is not desirable.

Similarly in the case of parking offences. If there were to be widespread disregard of the law, involving the blocking of traffic or hindering its free movement, it is undoubtedly a matter that requires attention, but the parking of a vehicle for a few minutes while a person transacts business adjacent to the place where the vehicle is parked does not seem to be a very grave offence and one which should be looked on in a serious light. I do not want it to be inferred from these remarks that I condone breaches of either the parking regulations or the licensing laws, but discretion should be used in all these cases so that a proper approach is taken in enforcing the law.

There is undoubtedly a great deal in what has been said here, that young people are influenced to a considerable extent by films and will now be influenced by TV., and I believe that in a general desire over a period of years to approach young delinquents in a reasonable manner, we may have erred too far in that direction. It is important, as Deputy Corish said, that they should not see films or shows that have a deleterious influence on them. Undoubtedly people when they are young are more impressionable than when they have more experience. Consequently, efforts should be made to see that, whether it is a film or any other form of entertainment, only those suitable for people of tender years should be shown to them.

In so far as young offenders are concerned, there is a good deal to be said for the view expressed here that the re-introduction in certain cases of the birch might be justified. It does not mean that a decision of that sort should be regarded as cruelty, but there is a great deal in the old proverb that if you spare the rod, you may spoil the child. Undoubtedly we live in an age in which there is less restraint, less respect for discipline, less respect for control, than formerly. While we in this country have, I suppose, a historical antipathy to law and regulation for very good reasons, we are now responsible for administering our own laws and for securing respect for these laws as well as compliance with them. The need for such respect should be brought home to juveniles in the schools and wherever else it is possible to do so. To that end, I believe some of the lectures which the Garda authorities have given from time to time have a most desirable effect and indeed a most useful one. As I understand it, in certain cases classes have availed of these lectures and talks, and the beneficial results which flow from them are easily seen.

There is one other matter I would like to mention, that is, the appointment of temporary district justices. When we were in Government—and I believe the same view is held by the present Minister—it was always held to be undesirable that there should be temporary district justices. While that was the view expressed, the practical application of it meant that some temporary district justices had to be appointed. It seems to me that the proper approach to this question is that justices who are needed for a particular area for temporary duty should be appointed in a permanent capacity but should be movable so that they could be assigned to particular districts when the need arose. That avoids the undesirable position in which a justice is temporary, but it also enables the Minister and the Department to assign a justice to a particular district or area for whatever period is necessary, when, because of sickness or arrears of work, an additional justice is required. If a permanent vacancy arises, then a person who is a permanent justice but movable can be assigned to it.

In view of the fact that for a great number of years, there have always been some temporary justices, it seems to me that the obvious solution is to appoint these justices permanently but to have them movable. That will avoid the undesirable position in which, as occasionally happens, a temporary justice is not ultimately made permanent. I suppose it is understandable, human nature being what it is, but it happens that circumstances arise in which, because of a change of Government or even a change of Minister, a justice who is temporary is not appointed to a permanent position. I know that in the main most of the appointees have been made permanent. It seems to me that the advantages of this proposal would outweigh any disadvantages, that it would be possible to make permanent appointments and at the same time have the justice available for whatever district he was needed in.

Mr. P. Byrne

There are two or three points to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. I wonder if the Minister has recently had before him any reports about the illegal moneylending which is becoming quite rampant in several parts of this city? We have a Moneylenders Act which imposes certain maximum rates of interest and prescribes certain rules and regulations for the practice of the business of moneylending; but it is fairly common knowledge in certain parts of this city that infringements of that Act are all too frequent. I am referring in particular to the poorer parts of this city and the Corporation housing schemes where the dealer type of old woman—usually, if I may use a vulgar term, a "targer"—engages in illegal moneylending. It is very difficult for the Garda to trace this breach of the law, but it is one in respect of which, I think, their powers should be strengthened.

The usual transaction is for a loan of £5. Believe it or not, the usual rate of interest on that loan is £1 per week. The usual borrower is the wife of a workingman, perhaps in arrears with her rent, who borrows unknown to her husband. It is because of that aspect of it that the lender is able to enforce the ruthless terms she imposes. The threat of telling the workman that his wife has borrowed from her is usually sufficiently effective to enforce the exorbitant rate of usury exacted. It is a great source of evil, and in some ways it has contributed to the breaking-up of quite a few homes. The police are aware of the problem but, to my mind, not enough has been done to arrest this development.

One or two of my colleagues have adverted to the provision in the Estimate of aid for poor prisoners and have referred to the necessity for a comprehensive scheme of free legal aid. The legal system we operate here is the English one—happily for us, in my opinion, because it is a very fine system. I believe that, perhaps because of our preoccupation with important material and economic considerations, we are less zealous in our concern for fundamental liberties and rights than the people of Britain. It has long been the proud boast of that English legal system that all citizens are equal before the law; but 15 years ago the British Government recognised that that was a fallacy and that all citizens were no longer equal before the law. They therefore provided a system of free legal aid so that all people would be made equal before the law.

The real fact of the matter is that in this country we have one law for the rich and another for the bulk of society who are not in a position to avail of their rights and privileges under the law. Legal expenses have become exorbitantly high and, as Deputy Declan Costello pointed out, the only circumstances in which free legal aid is made available is in cases of the capital charge. In the Dublin District Court, ejectment decrees for the possession of houses are being turned out as if out of a sausage machine. We have the situation that unfortunate poor people are ignorant of their rights and much less are they in a position to defend their rights. In recent years we have brought through this House very fine Hire Purchase Acts restricting the rights of the lender to repossess goods out on hire purchase. Of what use are such Acts if ignorant people are not aware of what their rights are and are not in a position to enforce them? From the point of view of social justice, I believe a very strong case can be made for introducing such a scheme and I would urge the Minister to give it his consideration.

The Minister has reported on the decline in criminal offences, particularly in Dublin city, and has also referred to the fact that he has during the past year increased the number of Gardaí in the city. For many years prior to that, the number had declined, notwithstanding the vast increase in the population of the city and the area which Gardaí have to cover. The Garda seem to rely to a very considerable extent on the patrol car as a means of enforcing the law. I am not alone in my conviction that the patrol car can never be a substitute for the policeman on foot. The psychological impact of the patrol-man's appearance in the street is considerable. It gives the law-abiding citizen a tremendous feeling of confidence in the law to see the Garda tramp by his front door, shake the gate to see if it is properly closed, flash his lamp into a porchway late at night.

There are parts of Dublin where one very rarely sees a patrol man. There is a great problem in our Dublin flat schemes in relation to law enforcement. I hope I am not being unfair or inaccurate, but I think it is true to say that the Guards will not, as a general rule or in ordinary circumstances, in the course of their patrols, enter into blocks of corporation flats just to look round to see that everything is all right. In too many of the flat schemes, there is vandalism and rowdyism. We must realise that these big schemes are almost communities in themselves. Neighbours constantly rush in and out of one another's homes and I think it is true that rowdyism is contagious in these places.

I am sure the Minister, as a Dublin Deputy, has had experience, as I have had, of the young husband or wife bringing up a young family and coming to a Deputy and asking for help to get a transfer out of the block of flats in which they live because their children are subject to scandal and the example of rowdyism by others in the building. It is like the old parable of the keg of rotten apples—one or two rowdies in a block of corporation flats can do untold harm. If it is true, and I believe it is, that the Garda in the ordinary way will not enter these big communities, I think that should be rectified.

The same can be said of parks and gardens. Again, for some technical reason, I think, the Guards will not enter, except in exceptional circumstances. If I am wrong in that, I am sure the Minister will correct me.

I should like to support the plea made by so many other speakers to the Minister that everything possible should be done to improve the conditions of the Garda. We have heard too many examples of Gardaí living in conditions of squalor in barracks even in Dublin city. Some of the older barracks are most uncomfortable places in which to reside. Nowadays, we have in the Garda a splendid type of highly-educated young man and I think they regard their living conditions as equal in importance to their pay and prospects of promotion.

Deputy Corish and Deputy Cosgrave also referred to the need for improving the film censorship so as to prevent children from seeing undesirable films which may be suitable enough for adults. I know the Minister is concerned about this problem and I must say that I have sympathy for him in regard to it because it must be very difficult to decide what should be done. The suggestion that films should be graded, which I think was made by Deputy Corish, can lend itself to exploitation. There are cinemas in Britain specialising in showing films marked "For adults only." They get an "X" certificate. This certificate is exploited in a big way: one will even see films described as not sensational but "sexsational"—and a big X. It is difficult to know what to do. There is a great increase in the number of horror films coming on the screens. I suppose, with the growth of television here, there may be a trend towards the more exceptional type of film. As a youngster aged 10 or 11, I remember seeing a rather horrific film which left me having nightmares for years afterwards. I feel there is a very strong case for restricting the showing of films to which Deputy Corish and Deputy Cosgrave referred.

I should be grateful if the Minister would tell us if the Garda have any function in regard to the enforcement of the anti-litter bye-laws of Dublin Corporation. I understand they have. If so, I am at a loss to know why those bye-laws are not being enforced. It costs Dublin Corporation more and more to endeavour to keep the city clean but they are not succeeding. There has been a slight improvement in recent months but notwithstanding that, the amount of litter scattered all over the city is really quite disgusting.

At present we read of the expenditure which we are about to incur in decorating the city with flowers for the Patrician week next month and the visit of Princess Grace, but it seems to me that if we merely kept the city clean, we would be doing something worth while. If the Garda can contribute in any way towards urging the citizens to respect their city, I think it should be done and, for my part, I would not be averse from the imposition of fines for spreading litter. Now that Ban-Ghardaí are patrolling the city, it would seem to me to be a very proper function for them to perform, in a courteous way at first, to remind the citizen who scatters litter that he is breaking the law and then, after a few weeks or a few months, a few prosecutions might bring the litterbugs to heel.

I had intended to say a word or two about the licensing laws but in view of the attitude of the Ceann Comhairle when Deputy Davern was speaking, I shall not do so.

Mr. O'Donnell

I, like other Deputies, would like to congratulate the Minister on his progress with law reform. This is something which was introduced by his predecessor. The former Taoiseach, Deputy John A. Costello, gave it his personal consideration. I shall not single out members of the staff of the Department of Justice who have carried out considerable research in law reform but they have done a wonderful job. I congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he has tackled this matter and on bringing forward legislation to the House. I hope the Minister will not stop there. There are some statutes on the Statute Book that we want to get rid of. Some of the statutes which are invoked in our courts date back to Elizabethan days and should be wiped off the Statute Book. It is an insult to the Irish nation to have them there. When we go to Croke Park on a Sunday to see an All-Ireland final or semi-final or any other intercounty game, we are breaking the law. That is not as it should be. Steps should be taken quickly to wipe these obsolete Acts from the Statute Book and to give us all the respect we should have for the law and to ensure that all statutes of the State will be enforced in identical manner.

I should like to refer to the appointment of judges. In doing so, I do not wish to cast aspersions in any way on any judge of the Supreme Court or High Court or on any circuit court judge or district justice. No matter how we may try or wish to eliminate it, we will have our judges appointed on their political affiliations. I am not referring to the present Government; I am referring to all Governments since the institution of the State.

Two things are wrong in that respect. I refer first to the superior courts from the circuit court up. In the majority of cases, prior to their appointment, all judges have at some time or other been prosecutors for the State, with the result that they have a prosecution bias from the moment they get on the Bench. They can never see the defence and sometimes are inclined to look on an accused or defendant as being guilty until proved innocent. That is a pity. One can almost single out the judges who have not been appointed on account of their political affiliations by their method of summing up to a jury.

Again, in the appointment of district justice, there is political patronage. We will have it and there is not much use in decrying it here. The Minister has done it; his predecessors have done it down through the years; and I am sure his successors will do the same. But, we could improve matters slightly. I make this suggestion to the Minister, that before the appointment of a district justice, he should consult the Incorporated Law Society, or the Bar Council in the case of a barrister, to discover what is the professional standing of the individual. Again, I am not referring to any particular appointment that has been made in the past. If that suggestion is adopted, it will ensure that only justices and judges of a fairly high standing in their profession will receive these appointments. The Minister should seriously consider taking into his confidence the Incorporated Law Society and the Bar Council before making appointments to the Bench.

On an Estimate, I may not advocate legislation but under recent legislation, a solicitor who is a district justice may become the chief district justice or President of the District Justices and he may be senior to a barrister who is a district justice in the ordinary district court area, but, despite being senior to the barrister who is a fellow district justice and who, possibly, has less experience on the Bench, the chief district justice is debarred from becoming a circuit court judge but one of the district justices inferior to him is entitled to become a circuit court judge and to be so appointed by the Minister. I suggest to the Minister that he should look into that. It should be possible to amend it.

Another matter I should like the Minister to look into is this. Some 30 years ago an effort was made in our district courts to appoint district justices with a knowledge of Irish to Irish-speaking districts. Apparently we have forgotten all about that and district justices are now appearing in district courts who require an interpreter when they preside in an Irish-speaking district. I do not think that is right. There should be a sufficient number of district justices with a knowledge of Irish who could be assigned to Irish-speaking areas so that the old system may be revived whereby we encouraged litigants, Garda and professional men to use our language in the courts. We make it a condition precedent to their appointment to the profession that they should have a knowledge of the Irish language. Why stop there? Why not encourage them to continue using the Irish language? It would be a very good thing if the Minister could see his way to assign only Irish-speaking district justices to Irish-speaking areas.

I remember practising in a district court in an Irish-speaking area where entire cases were heard through the medium of Irish. Advocates addressed the court, district justices questioned witnesses, Gardaí examined and cross-examined, solicitors examined and cross-examined, through the medium of the Irish language. It is years now since I have seen it. It is a tragedy. The Minister should look into the matter.

There is another matter to which I wish to refer. It is the cluttering up of business in our courts, particularly our district courts. Under a recent decision of one of the superior courts, it is necessary for a district justice to enter personally in the Order Book his decision on a particular case and to do it at the time of coming to his decision. That has completely slowed up business in the district court. The district court is the only court in which that is required to be done. The result is that a justice dealing with twenty cases of unlighted bicycles has to spend five or ten minutes writing in his order. A district court clerk is employed for that purpose. It is the Minister's duty to see that alternative arrangements are made whereby it will suffice if the district court clerk enters the order and the justice signs it later. It would save considerable time and would enable litigants and all others having business in the district courts to get out of the courts much earlier. Quite recently, I was present in a district court which sat at 11 a.m. and finished at 9.40 p.m. with a break of three-quarters of an hour for lunch. That is very unfair to the district justice. It is very unfair to litigants, to professional men and Gardaí who have to spend all the time in court.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy must be living in a very disorderly area.

Mr. O'Donnell

No. We get out before closing time. I do not mean we were sitting in those premises. It is very unfair to a district justice that, in addition to having to give serious thought to dispensing justice to litigants, the prosecution and the defence he should be concerned with entering up the Order Book. The district court clerk could do that. In that way the work would be done much more quickly.

Last year the Minister introduced a new system of circuits for our circuit courts. I would ask him to pay particular attention to the matter of ascertaining whether they are working out satisfactorily or otherwise. I know that some judges are at the moment finding themselves falling into arrears of work simply because they are being inundated with litigation as a result of their being unable to devote sufficient time to each circuit town in which they sit. I particularly refer to the new northern circuit where we have a most hard-working and industrious circuit court judge. I do not know if he will be able to stand up to the strain having regard to the time he is expected to spend in the various towns in the circuit. That is something of which the Minister should take particular note. We do not want to fall back into the old position of having considerable arrears in our circuit courts.

Many Deputies paid compliments to the Garda and I should like to join with them. I should like, first of all, to compliment the Commissioner on the high example and standard he has set to the men under him. I think he is a credit to the force. He was not an ordinary recruit. When he came in, he was comparatively advanced in years. He came into the force from the Department of Justice. If he had come up through the force, he could not have been more successful in his work. I should like to compliment him upon the manner in which he has turned out recruits.

If I refer to a few points, it is not by way of general criticism. They are the exception rather than the rule. I think more attention should be given to the teaching of the law of evidence to our Garda recruits. On many occasions we find in our district courts that very vital evidence for the prosecution is ruled out simply because the Garda slipped in something which is not evidence. They appear to be completely ignorant—perhaps "ignorant" is too strong a word—of the law of evidence. They appear to have only the bare rudiments of the law of evidence. I think some more attention should be given, not only to the recruits but to some officers in the force. Let them be given lessons possibly by men more experienced in the law of evidence. It would be of considerable assistance to them in later years when they go out the country or appear in our courts and find themselves opposed to trained professional men.

A very bad system has grown up in recent years. When I say "in recent years", I am referring to the period over the past 20 years. It is something which has worried me and many lawyers throughout the State. That is prior consultation between officers of the Garda and sometimes State solicitors with district justices, circuit court and high court judges. I think it is a deplorable thing that any justice should be put in the position that a file should be placed at his disposal before he hears the defence or before he actually hears the facts of the case.

That has happened and it is a very bad thing. I think it should go out through the Minister and the Attorney General's office that there should be no such thing as prior consultation between a district justice, a Garda superintendent or a State solicitor. That is prejudicial to justice. It is unfair to the defence. It is something that should be guarded against. I am not saying for one second that district justices are influenced by seeing these files. I am not saying that the circuit or high court judges are influenced but it is unfair to them. Human nature is human nature and if they know in advance that a man has been previously convicted of crime, despite the fact that he is innocent until proved guilty his bad past is always at the back of their heads.

I do not blame the Minister in any way for it. I do not say that it has crept in in his time; it has crept in over the past 20 years. It is something of which we all have personal experience. We are all aware of it. I am sure the Minister will appreciate the position in which we are, for reasons which are very obvious. There are places where we cannot draw attention to it but this is one where we can. I do not wish to say anything more about it. It is a very bad system. It is very bad particularly from a defence point of view.

I should also like to congratulate the Commissioner on the new arm of the force, namely, the Ban-Gharda. I think they are a credit to the Garda. They are following in the tradition of the male members of the force. They are living up to the very high standards set by their fellow Gardaí. Many of us have seen what corresponds to the Ban-Gharda in other countries. I think that our lady members bear favourable comparison with them. I understand the Ban-Gharda are being sent to Cork, later possibly to Limerick and I hope eventually to Galway, Sligo, Waterford and the other large towns throughout the State. Other major towns throughout the State will have the benefit of being policed by these very fine specimens of womanhood, many of whom come from Donegal.

Deputy Byrne made an appeal to the Minister for an increased rate of pay for the Garda and I should like to join with him. I should like to see parity in pay between the Garda and members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. We sometimes deplore the fact that we find it necessary to have such a force in the thirty-two counties. Let me say that I have considerable experience of the R.U.C. I do not know whether this is the appropriate place to say it but they are as fine a body of men as I ever met. They are the most courteous police officers that I have come across and bear favourable comparison, indeed, with cross-Channel police and our own. I should like to see parity of pay amongst the members of the police forces, if at all possible. I know the Minister is doing his utmost to improve the living quarters of the Garda. I hope he will be successful in having their living quarters improved and brought up to the standard which they deserve.

We introduce new legislation in this House, and when it becomes law, there is sometimes a tendency on the part of the Garda to rush out to enforce it immediately. I think that is wrong. Last year, we passed the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1960, and to my own knowledge, in my own county, within the first three weeks of the passing of that Act, there were nine prosecutions of publicans caught 15 minutes after closing time. I believe that in the first case, a warning that new legislation has been introduced and will be enforced would have sufficed for the first month or so, because a second conviction is now a very serious matter. A second conviction carries an endorsement and that is a very serious matter.

Convictions imposed in the first month or the first three weeks—in one case I know of, within ten days of the passing of the new Act—may have very serious consequences in later years. I know that the Minister went on the air and informed the public that the Act would be enforced, but you cannot change the character of the Irish people overnight. We had been lackadaisical in so far as the enforcement of the licensing laws was concerned, and they were more honoured in the breach than in the observance. Unfortunately, it takes a little more than the Minister's speech on the radio, or possibly our own speeches here, to bring home to the people in the country that the Minister and the Garda mean business. The Garda might have been a little more lenient. They might have endeavoured to educate the people in the new hours rather than to ensure their enforcement. Possibly that might have proved useful and we would not have the outcry against the licensing laws which we now have.

Some Deputies referred to film censorship. The Minister will have to give very serious consideration to that matter from now on. While we know it is possible for the Minister to ensure that films and other shows on television will be properly censored, unfortunately he has no control whatever over the programmes shown from the six north eastern counties, or from across the water. I think that is a matter which could be grappled with by an exchange of views between the Governments controlling Great Britain and the Six Counties and our Government. It might be possible to set up an internation film censorship for what we might describe as the British Isles and Ireland. If that could be done, it would be a very good thing. There is not much use in our having a very strict censorship here if, by merely twiddling a knob, we can look at a film which our censor would reject at first view. That is something with which we will have to grapple if we are to make any use of film censorship, as I respectfully think we should.

It might be possible for the Minister, through the Minister for External Affairs perhaps to give serious consideration to that matter, particularly in relation to juveniles. We know the B.B.C. issue a warning that juveniles should not be permitted to view certain programmes. It might be possible by consultation between the B.B.C. and Radio Eireann to arrange that certain programmes will be shown at certain hours. That, in itself, might be of great assistance in the enforcement of our censorship.

On each occasion on which I have spoken in this House on this Estimate, I have either begun or concluded by complimenting the Minister on the manner in which he has conducted his Department, and on the courtesy he has shown to the public and to Deputies. I am sorry, indeed, that on this occasion I cannot do so and I am referring to two particular instances. With the exception of the Garda, there is no other body in this State more concerned in the appointment of peace commissioners than the legal profession, because they are in closest contact with them.

Some time last year, it was brought to my notice in my own home town that there was a shortage of peace commissioners. We had lost three peace commissioners in the then recent past. I was asked to recommend three candidates to the Minister and I selected three most respected men. Definitely, two of them had political views which were the same as mine, but they were above reproach. The third man was non-political and he was also above reproach. They were three businessmen in the town of Dungloe. I must say, if I may say so, that for my own convenience and the convenience of my colleagues in the town, I wanted those men who would be permanently available appointed.

I wrote to the Minister submitting the three names. I received an acknowledgment but I heard nothing further until I read in the local paper, some two months after, that three other men had been appointed. I am not saying one word against the characters of the three men who were appointed. Their politics were Fianna Fáil and the Minister was entitled to appoint them, if he wanted to do so, but he might have had the courtesy to tell me that the three applicants whose names I submitted were not acceptable to him. If I had received such a letter, I would have been quite satisfied, but the first indication I had that the gentlemen whose names I had submitted had been turned down was when I read in the local paper that three other gentlemen, as highly respected as the men I had recommended, had been appointed. I look upon that as discourtesy to myself.

Again, late last year in the town of Ardara, a peace commissioner, a member of the Church of Ireland, died. I was asked to recommend another member of that congregation as peace commissioner to succeed him. I was unaware then and am still unaware of the politics of the man I recommended. I wrote a letter to the Minister and recommended this man in view of his religious persuasion, and in view of the fact that there was a small minority of Church of Ireland people in the Ardara area. I thought that out of courtesy to them, a member of the Church of Ireland should be appointed as peace commissioner.

I received an akknowledgment from the Minister and I heard nothing further until I read in the paper that a Catholic had been appointed to succeed the member of the Church of Ireland who had died. I think that was discourtesy to me in person. These appointments were essential not only to the Garda but to me in my professional capacity as a solicitor. I went to the trouble of selecting men I thought would honour and respect the trust which the Minister would repose in them by appointing them as peace commissioners, and it was disappointing that they were turned down. I do not think such action is calculated to show the religious minorities that we respect them as we should.

While I am on that subject, and let me conclude on it. I remember that when a member of the Garda met a peace commissioner he accorded him the honour and respect due to a peace commissioner by saluting him. When a member of the Garda met a Minister of State, a Deputy, a clergyman, an Army officer or a judge of the courts he saluted him. That is something of the past. Deputies, Ministers, peace commissioners, and others, no longer receive that sign of respect. I am all against what is known in the British Army and all armies as "bull" but I am all in favour of respect. I think it is bad that such a practice is not continued. I do not blame the Gardaí. I do not think it is part of the curriculum of their training. I think it is a pity. It is a sign and a mark of respect that we should not drop.

I congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he has run his Department, with the two exceptions I have mentioned. I have found him at all times to be a most courteous Minister, a Minister who treated with respect any point of view placed before him. I hope that while he remains Minister for Justice, he will continue to conduct his Department in the same manner as at present.

Mr. Palmer

Listening to my colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, I thought he was speaking from the other side of the House because he congratulated the Minister so often on the work he is doing. However, I am in perfect agreement with what he says in that regard.

He must be a very innocent politician if he thinks that because he recommends certain people, no matter how respectable they may be, for appointment as peace commissioners, they should be appointed. I am very much afraid that the very fact of his recommending them causes them to fall at the first fence. I am sure that it is the privilege of a Government to appoint peace commissioners, judges, district justices, and so on, in accordance with the wishes of that Government. Of course, they are really political appointments. I do not think that that should be so. However, I cannot see any way under the present Constitution by which that can be changed.

Deputy O'Donnell also referred to the appointment of Irish-speaking justices to Irish-speaking areas. That is a matter, too, that requires consideration. If an Irish-speaking justice or solicitor or whatever he may be from Donegal or anywhere in the North came south and was appointed, say, in Kerry, he certainly would not understand the Irish language.

Mr. O'Donnell

Nor the English.

Mr. Palmer

Nor the English, either, perhaps. They have a peculiar intonation up there in the North. Neither would they in Donegal understand a solicitor or some legal luminary from Kerry or anywhere in the South. The same obtains in respect of Leinster and Connaught. Therefore, the Minister would be well advised if he has any appointments to make during the remainder of his term of office to consider that point. It is essential that where vacancies arise in Munster, Leinster, Connaught or Ulster, legal individuals from these particular areas be appointed who will understand the dialect of the area.

Deputy O'Donnell and all other Deputies in this debate praised the Garda Síochána, the old Garda and the new Garda. Certainly, in any country where you want law and order respected, you must respect those who enforce it. In connection with the parking of cars in this city and even in towns down the country, I have seen difficulties arise. A very respectable citizen may be held up because for some reason he could not get a parking place. Perhaps his wife or some member of his family wants to go into a shop and he is just holding on for a few moments while she or some other member of the family is inside. He cannot find a parking place. A young Garda or even an old Garda will come up to him and give him a lecture. A lady may be at the wheel of a car. Her husband may be doing the shopping or looking after some other business. In the end, the lady or gentleman at the wheel will feel a criminal because of the lecture which is delivered by the Garda.

I saw an example in a certain town in south Kerry recently when I was standing by.

Mr. O'Donnell

You should have told him who you were.

Mr. Palmer

No. I do not think that would be right. A professional man pulled up his car and could not find a parking place. Motor cars were parked on either side of a pretty narrow street. His wife was going into a shop for a few minutes. A young Garda came along and lectured him down the banks, asked him why he should pull up there. He was there for just a few minutes. I overheard that. I do not know who the Garda was but I inquired who the gentleman in the car was. I found he was a professional man. He felt the fact that he was pulled up and lectured by the Garda very keenly as I am sure I would or any of us would. That sort of thing can happen when country people come up to town, driving their cars. I know that when I first came up here driving my car, I got into very serious trouble. However, I found that the Gardaí were very reasonable. They would be in the city, I am sure, because they understand the difficulties.

Mr. O'Donnell

They recognise a countryman.

Mr. Palmer

They recognise somebody from the far distant north when they hear the accent. The Garda should be reasonable in that respect. Those people do not mean to offend against the law. They cannot help it.

I often thought something should be done in connection with the taking of the oath. I do not know exactly what can be done about it. Certainly it is responsible for wholesale perjury. Most of our people take the oath, having their case already made up in their minds. They never realise the sin of which they are guilty by telling untruths after taking the oath. I believe that to save them from that, it would be just as well to abolish the taking of the oath.

The erection and maintenance of courthouses I think is a duty of the local authority but the responsibility should lie with the Department of Justice and not the local authority.

I was never in favour of the appointment of the Ban-Gharda but I understand that, since they were appointed, they have performed a useful function.

I should also like to say that something should be done about pedestrians and cyclists on the roads at night-time. In fact, I do not know whether pedestrians are supposed to keep to the right side of the road but they are supposed I think to walk to meet oncoming traffic. That may be all right but in the ordinary way pedestrians walk on the left hand side of the road and at night-time they are in continual danger from oncoming traffic. They should walk one way or the other; people should be directed to keep either to the right side or to the left. Above all, cyclists should be warned that at night-time they should have reflectors or lights to warn oncoming traffic. Anyone driving a car at night-time knows that a pedestrian or a cyclist on the road is in danger, especially when there is an oncoming car with bright headlights and there is nothing to indicate his presence to another car following. I am sure many accidents occur in that way.

Like many of my colleagues I also have nothing but praise for the Minister for Justice. Since he was appointed, he has been always most courteous to us even when we approached him to reduce fines, especially on poteen makers in Donegal or Kerry. He has always listened to our case and if necessary has reduced fines or made representations to the Revenue Commissioners to do so. So far as we on this side of the House are concerned, and I am sure I can speak for the whole Party, we are quite pleased with the Minister and, if returned to office, we hope that he will carry out his duties in the future as he has done in the past. We are very grateful to him.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Traynor)

The general trend of this debate has, to my mind, been quite satisfactory. I should like to preface what I intend to say by remarking that I have no objection to criticism, however severe it may be, but I do object to the type of destructive criticism indulged in by Deputy McGilligan when he initiated the discussion following my opening statement. I have always found criticism very helpful. On numerous occasions I have utilised the views of Deputies from all sides of the House when I wanted to induce the Government to take a particular line of action. Therefore I always welcomed discussion on any subject with which I was concerned and however my administration was criticised, so long as it was fair criticism, I welcomed it. I certainly do not, however, welcome the type of carping, cavilling criticism with which Deputy McGilligan began the debate. I have no doubt that he led off with the hope and intention of inducing those of his colleagues who would follow him to take that lead. I must say to their credit that, with the exception of Deputy Ryan, that line was completely ignored and most of the criticism of the Estimate was fair.

Although I stated in my opening remarks that there was a decrease in crime and an increase in the detection of crime, Deputy McGilligan appeared to suggest that such was not the case. We have statistics to prove that the figures for the year just ended were, I think, 14 per cent. lower than the previous year, and that the detection of crime was ten per cent. higher. That position was not brought about just by accident. It was brought about by the detailed organisation of the Garda, by the introduction of separate and newer methods and by greater attention to detail by the members of the Garda. I can only express the hope that when this Estimate is taken again next year, whoever will be acting as Minister for Justice will be in the same position as I was this year and will be able to state that crime has diminished and the detection of crime has increased.

Deputy McGilligan also tried to belittle the enactment of the Criminal Justice Act, 1960. That was an Act which was a definite step forward in an effort to bring about better conditions in regard to the treatment of prisoners. Quite a number of prisoners undergoing sentence were enabled to go out on parole when a bereavement occurred in their families and at the same time we were in the happy position of releasing quite a number of prisoners for the Christmas period. The enactment of that measure deserved some little credit instead of being written off, as everything contained in the Estimate was written off by Deputy McGilligan.

He next dealt with that portion of my speech which treated of the achievement in the field of law reform. The promotion of the Courts of Justice Bill and the Civil Liability Bill was completely ignored by him. The enactment of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill he characterised as causing confusion, disappointment and agitation. Whatever one may think about the effectiveness, or otherwise, of the licensing laws before the enactment of the latest piece of legislation, there is one thing on which we can all agree: that legislation has brought about a better and healthier condition throughout the country as compared with the situation which obtained previously in which there was practically no respect for the licensing laws. In a situation in which one law meets with nothing but disrespect, the danger always is that other laws will receive in time the same scant consideration.

Deputy McGilligan made complaint about the Rule-Making Committee. He said it had failed to furnish annual reports in compliance with the provisions of the Courts of Justice Act. I am informed the Committee are not inactive. A sub-committee is dealing with the Superior Rules Committee. Energetic preparation is being made for new rules in relation to the Supreme Court. There is certainly progress there.

There is no truth in the suggestion that there is a big wastage in the Garda Síochána because of men leaving to join foreign police forces. On 22nd March of this year, I informed the House that up to 28th February, 1961, the number who resigned was only 37. A very small percentage, two or three per cent, resigned to join a foreign police force. The statement that there was a big wastage in the Garda is without foundation.

I do not object to fair criticism, but I do object to the type of criticism in which groundless charges are levelled. Deputy McGilligan went out of his way to describe the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary to the Department of Justice as a "job". He emphasised his statement by describing the "job" as "a job in the worst sense." I want to make the position very clear now in relation to that particular appointment. The Taoiseach was charged with making the "job". Let me give the House the history and, as the House will see, the history of the appointment completely refutes the baseless allegation.

In 1957, when we returned to office, the Taoiseach instructed us to find out what legislation was required in our respective Departments and what legislation should be enacted forthwith. Acting on that instruction, I went into the Department of Justice. I discussed the situation with the Secretary and, having assessed the position, I gave certain instructions as to what we should deal with there and then. One of the first pieces of legislation was that dealing with the establishment of the Courts of Justice. The courts were actually operating under a Constitution which was no longer operative. It was our anxiety to ensure that the courts should be properly constituted under the Constitution of 1937. That was the purpose of the Bill introduced here.

As well as that, there were other matters requiring attention. There was the report of the Intoxicating Liquor Commission, a voluminous report, which had to be studied by me before I could submit anything in the nature of recommendations to the Government. That took a considerable time. When the report was printed and circulated, it was brought before the Government and the recommendations were discussed over a period of more than 12 months. I do not suggest that they were discussed continuously, but they were discussed over that period. All the time I was receiving deputations in Government Buildings and here in Leinster House.

Added to that, there were the ordinary domestic day-to-day administrative matters of the Department in relation to the police, to prisons, and so on. I was concerned in a continuous task. The Intoxicating Liquor Bill was introduced here in 1959. It was debated over a period of eight months. All the time I was being inundated with other pieces of legislation which I was trying to produce for the Government. As Deputy O'Donnell will appreciate—he was a Minister—when a Bill is in draft and brought before the Government for consideration, it is the duty of the Minister in charge to inform the Government on the subject and to advise them. The Minister is responsible for helping the Government to make their decisions. Those decisions may not be acceptable to the Minister, but he must play his part in giving all the advice he can to help the Government to come to a decision.

In the course of that pressure of work, though feeling ill, I continued to pilot the Bill right up to the Christmas Recess. I had a very bad cold and I was advised by my doctor not to attempt to continue piloting the measure. When the House rose I was confined to bed and had the doctor called in. I was advised I had pneumonia. Out of that came other complications which necessitated my going into a nursing home for a period. When I came out, the Dáil was resuming and I attempted to take on the Committee Stage of the Bill against doctor's orders. Deputies are fully aware that in the course of that work I had to be assisted from the House due to a weakness which overcame me as a result of the excess of work.

When that occurred I went to the Taoiseach and appealed to him to give me help. I told him that if he could not, I was prepared to resign. The Taoiseach discussed that point with me and eventually thought he could help by assigning to me the Minister for Lands who was regarded as an expert in licensing laws. That was not of much advantage because the Minister for Lands had his own Department to look after and eventually his help was not available. It was then I pressed the Taoiseach for a Parliamentary Secretary and told him the benefits I thought would arise from such an arrangement. Amongst the arguments which convinced me it would be a useful appointment was that at the time the Department had something like ten pieces of legislation in an advanced state of preparation and that if I had a Parliamentary Secretary he could take business up to the Seanad while I was dealing with other business here and when the Parliamentary Secretary was finished in the Seanad he could come to the Dáil and I could go to the Seanad and that that could go on until these various pieces of legislation had been enacted. That was how the Parliamentary Secretary came to be appointed.

There was no question of a job, good bad or indifferent. When the Taoiseach asked me had I anyone in mind for that position, I said I would be very grateful if I could have Deputy Haughey who was a colleague in the same constituency as myself and whom I knew to be a very talented young man with legal degrees. The Taoiseach was very loath to do that but eventually I convinced him that it would be desirable. He had the moral courage to do something he knew would be misinterpreted by that mean type of mind that is always inclined to take the wrong view of a matter of that kind. I hope when the time comes the Taoiseach will have the moral courage again to do what he should do and that would be to appoint him to the office of Minister if he should be in a position to do so.

In that regard I want to say that this Estimate will be the last I shall have the privilege of bringing before the House because it is not my intention to contest the next general election. Therefore I think when the Taoiseach stated to this House that the position of Parliamentary Secretary would be a temporary one he had that in mind.

Mr. O'Donnell

We are very sorry indeed to hear that the Minister is leaving.

Mr. Traynor

I told the Taoiseach it was not my intention to go beyond the life of the present Dáil. It is regrettable that I have to speak in this way on what is the last occasion on which I shall be taking the Estimate for my Department, but it is necessary and desirable that a situation of that kind be clarified. I have endeavoured to make it clear to the decent-minded Deputies of this House that the statement that this was a job in the worst sense of the word, was unfair and unjustified.

Several Deputies raised the question of the rent that young members of the Garda are induced to pay. They also raised the question of accommodation. I wish to clarify the position in regard to the alteration in the pay structure of the Garda and I can best do it by reading this statement to the House, because there is an amount of grave misrepresentation taking place which is not confined to verbal expression but has been printed in the various newspapers. Therefore it is desirable to have all the facts presented to the public so that the significance of the alteration can be properly appreciated.

This alteration was not as people seem to think, a revision of the rates of pay for the various ranks of the Force: such a revision, under which substantial pay increases were granted, took place within the last twelve months. The alteration simply meant that a non-pensionable allowance became consolidated with pay and that as a result the allowance became pensionable. Nor was it a change which was foisted on an unwilling Force. It was one which has been advocated by the several Garda Representative Bodies practically since the inception of the Force. And it was brought about through the machinery of the Garda Conciliation and Arbitration scheme, a scheme which also had been the objective of the Garda Representative Bodies for several years and which objective had been achieved only as recently as June 1959. This scheme was set up to provide a means acceptable to Government and the Garda Síochána for the determination of claims and proposals relating to certain conditions of service of the Force. It covers all ranks up to and including Chief Superintendent.

As can be seen from the Garda Síochána Vote Estimate Garda remuneration is comprised of several allowances as well as pay. Until the recent change one such allowance, known as rent allowance, was paid to any member for whom, or, if he was married, for whose family, free quarters either were not available or were available but not suitable for occupation. The amount of the allowance varied according to place of location and, in the case of Sergeants and Guards, the maximum rates ranged from £27 4s. 6d. to £61 17s. 6d. per annum. This allowance was non-pensionable and, as I have already said, the Garda Representative Bodies had been making strong and frequent representations over the years to have it recognised as a pensionable emolument. As conditions of service in neighbouring police forces are so often cited for comparison purposes, I think it pertinent to mention that in Great Britain the consolidation of housing emolument with pay is still only a possibility of the future. In fact, the Royal Commission on the Police, in its interim report published in November last, stated that they did not consider a strong case had been made for disturbing existing arrangements and that they were not recommending consolidation.

When the Garda Representative Bodies last made proposals regarding rent allowance, the matter fell to be considered under the Garda Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme. These proposals, which comprised a claim for revised rent allowances and a claim for pensionability of rent allowances, were decided at conciliation level. As a result of their deliberations, the Conciliation Council, the Garda Representatives on which were one chief superintendent, one superintendent and two members of Garda rank, submitted an agreed report, the acceptance of which by the Ministers for Justice and Finance has brought about the new pay structure. The agreed report recommended that the non-pensionable rent allowance be abolished and that instead there should be a consolidated rate of pay which would include a pensionable element in respect of the rent allowance and which would be subject to a deduction in respect of the occupation of free quarters.

The amounts of the elements recommended for inclusion were £65 for sergeant and Guards, £80 for inspectors and £110 for superintendents and chief superintendents. The amounts of the deduction recommended in respect of free quarters represents four-fifths of the additions to pay.

The formula recommended and now given statutory effect is based on a simple pattern of uniformity and, in this, it follows the principles governing pay, pension and conditions of service. It does not differentiate between members of the same rank in the matter of their outgoings on accommodation nor does it purport to assess the value of free quarters. Clearly the Garda representatives on the council must have recognised that, having regard to varying rates of rent allowances, the different standards of official accommodation available and the differing costs of housing throughout the State, it would be practically impossible to produce a workable scheme which would give proper consideration to these factors, and that any hope of realisation of their ambitions must lie in an arrangement in the nature of a package deal which, while conferring equal benefits in the matters of pension, would prove less beneficial to some than to others in the matters of pay and might in fact affect adversely the pay of a minor proportion of the members.

This situation could arise in the case of a member in official quarters who had previously enjoyed tax-free accommodation but was now receiving an addition to pay which was subject to income-tax, the amount of which, if the member was not entitled to claim sufficient tax reliefs, could exceed by a few pounds the difference between the total amount of the addition and the amount to be deducted for the official quarters. But in any package deal there is some rough with the smooth, and this is the "rough" aspect which is being highlighted in the papers while the real benefits are only touched upon.

A large number will benefit substantially in pay as a result of the change. Over 650 sergeants and Guards will receive an addition of more than £33 in the year and over 1,200 will be getting not less than £27 10s. more. Altogether, the annual cost of the additional pay benefits flowing from the change will be around £134,000. About another £50,000 will be needed in the 1961/62 financial year to cover the cost of the increased pensions and gratuities, and in eight years' time the annual cost under this heading will have risen to £150,000. The consolidation of rent allowance with pay can be appreciated by illustrating its effect on a Garda member who is entitled to retire with the maximum pension and gratuity, i.e., a Garda who has 33 years' service. If there had been no change, the Garda would get an annual pension of £292 and a gratuity of £976 14s. 9d. With the change, he is now entitled to receive an annual pension of £324 11s. 9d. and a gratuity of £1,085 14s. 11d. In the case of a Garda member whose pension conditions do not provide for a gratuity, the maximum pension, which is payable after 30 years' service, was £389 6s. 8d. under the old system and this has now been increased to £432 15s. 8d. That goes to show the benefits which the ordinary members of the Garda are gaining as a result of the discussions which took place under the conciliation and arbitration scheme.

I want to impress on the House that the Garda authorities have, for 30 years, been advocating this change to having their claims decided not by the will of a Minister or by the Government but through the medium of a conciliation and arbitration board, and, as I say, I had the privilege and the honour of being able to induce my colleagues of the Government to grant that to the Garda. They have already, as members of the House will know, received a rise in pay as a result of the arbitration, and as a result of conciliation, they have secured this particular benefit of their conditions. I do not think then that they have very much to grumble about.

Deputies will remember that, as I mentioned in the beginning, some Guards had £27 10s. and others had up to £62. That was the way the figures ranged up and down. Now all get the flat rate of £65, no matter where they are living, whether in rural Ireland or in a city or in the capital of the country. So when Deputies talk now about urging the Minister to do something about increasing the pay of the Garda, the Minister's reply will always have to be to insist that this is a matter now to be carried out under the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme. That is the position to-day, and that is the reply I have to make to all those Deputies who advocated in the course of the discussion increases in the pay or standards of accommodation of the Garda.

A number of Deputies also referred to the closing of Garda stations throughout the country. I want to make the position in regard to that pretty clear. The criticism has been made of the tendency to close a number of Garda stations or reduce the number of men attached to them. I should like to make it clear that police efficiency is the dominant consideration in these cases. Before any change is made, a very careful survey is carried out and regard is had to crime statistics

A reduction in strength is made only in areas virtually free of serious crime. Where changes are made, the Commissioner is satisfied in advance that the new arrangements will not impair police efficiency in any way. Further, the new system is watched carefully and if experience should show that the change militated against efficiency I would have no hesitation in arranging for an increase in the Garda strength in a particular place. The Minister can always keep his eye on the position when Garda stations are reduced in strength. If the arrangement is found not to be working as efficiently as the Commissioner thought it would, the old position can be reverted to.

Reference was made by a number of Deputies to Garda accommodation, which was stated to be unsatisfactory. I must admit I am not very happy about the state of accommodation in quite a number of Garda stations, and I have been taking a very strong personal interest in the question. I must admit, too, that the progress I have made has not been as much as I would have liked. That is another matter which has been given to the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with, and I am satisfied he is very active and is responding to the pressure I am putting on him to deal with that matter.

A number of Deputies referred to housing accommodation. Deputy Corish suggested we should do something about bringing in Local Government. That has been done. We actually have a scheme now, which will be very shortly in operation, in which a company will be formed under the auspices of the Department of Local Government and will build houses specially for the Garda. In future, Garda stations to replace old stations may have accommodation, perhaps, for single men and a house on each side which will be made available to married members of the Force.

Mr. Corish

Would that be desirable in a town of from 8,000 to 18,000 population? Would it not be desirable to build five or six houses in some other part of the town?

Mr. Traynor

That is a matter which will be dealt with by this company. It was one of the reliefs which we felt could operate more efficiently than if the Minister himself tried to get something done. Now we hope to have a system whereby these houses will be built by this organisation at the request of the Department of Justice. I feel pretty certain we shall get results. Of course, it will take a little time because new buildings will have to be commenced. However, we are hoping for the best.

Mr. Corish

I do not like interrupting the Minister, but the building of these houses for Gardai will not be confined to places where barracks are required?

Mr. Traynor

No, not at all. It will be where housing accommodation is required for Gardai.

Deputy Noel Lemass and a number of other Deputies talked about the desirability of extending the retiring age in the case of Gardaí who had given national service. The present position is that chief superintendents, superintendents, inspectors, sergeants and Gardaí who hold service certificates under the Military Service Pensions Acts, 1924 to 1934, or who are in possession of the 1916 medal with bar, have a retiring age of 65. I cannot meet the request of the Deputies who have been urging me to give this distinction to all members of the Garda with I.R.A. service. First, the number would be too large; and, secondly, we do not want to block promotions and vacancies which would occur in the normal way by keeping on men until they are 65. From the physical point of view, I do not think they should be asked at that age to deal with some of the hard work often confronting Gardaí.

Deputy Noel Lemass also felt we should have mounted police. I do not think we could concede that request. It might be very spectacular and it might add to our ceremonial. The fact remains, however, that it would be a very costly innovation, and the Minister for Justice cannot get money simply to expend on ceremonials; it must be for effective work.

Deputy Noel Lemass also raised the matter of park rangers. The fact that there is little or no protection within public parks has been raised here on a number of occasions. It is a difficult subject to deal with. The suggestion I made to a deputation from the Corporation was that the installation of telephones in public parks would be the best method of enabling the rangers in co-operation with the Garda to deal with the kind of vandalism and rowdyism alleged to take place in these parks. We do ask the police to keep in touch with the park ranger and make it easy for him to contact the Garda. I think the simplest solution would be that the Corporation should instal telephones at strategic points in all public parks so that the park ranger could get in contact with the Garda immediately.

The only Deputy who criticised the white coats and the batons was Deputy Ryan. Most other Deputies praised these innovations. I am responsible for the white coats. Like every other Deputy who drives a car, I have often had the experience on a winter's evening of suddenly seeing a policeman in his dark clothes loom up. How these men escaped death was a marvel to me. What I advocated was that the white coat be worn by the policemen on point duty. I think it is an excellent innovation, in that they stand out on a dark winter evening when these men are on point duty at Butt Bridge, O'Connell Street and other places. It may be, as Deputy Ryan said, that they have no particular drill in respect of their batons, that they simply whirl them round, wildly waving them as if they were shillelaghs. I think he was exaggerating. It may be true that there is some form of drill that could be introduced for those batons. I understand that in Paris they are very effectively used and are regarded by the motorists as being an ideal method of signalling.

The question of legal aid was raised by a number of Deputies. It is a hardy annual. I am quite sympathetic to the idea, in a general way, but I must have regard to the question of cost which would be very considerable if, as Deputy Lemass seemed to suggest, that aid should be given in civil as well as in criminal cases. All I can say at present is that the matter is one which the law reform section of my Department has been asked to look into. I can make no promises.

Deputy T. Lynch deprecated the leniency with which some of the courts deal with serious offences. I must say I thoroughly agree with him. I am amazed from time to time, in dealing with police reports in my Department, to find that the Probation of Offenders Act has been applied time after time. Only the other day, I had a case in which an individual had, I think, 47 convictions and I was astonished to find that he had got the benefit of the Probation Act on no less than seven occasions. The Chief Justice apparently is of the one mind with both Deputy Lynch and myself because some time ago, from the Bench, he made this statement:

It is difficult to see why the Probation Act should have been applied more than once. And if the framers of the Act were justified in allowing an opportunity of reform and if, as in these cases an opportunity of reform was allowed, that it was not availed of is shown by the fact that these people come before the Court again. In such cases it is farcical that the Probation Act should be applied again.

I have no jurisdiction over judges or justices who apply that Act, but I sometimes feel that their reluctance to send offenders to prison or to St. Patrick's Institution may be due to the fact that they are not fully aware of the conditions under which prisoners serve their sentences. I should like some of these judges and justices to visit the prisons, Mountjoy and St. Patrick's. If they did, their reluctance to send there some of the boys that come before them would be lessened. They would have less hesitation in sending these boys to St. Patrick's. I am pretty certain that if the parents of some of the boys sent to St. Patrick's were able to see, as I have seen on a number of my visits there, the splendid conditions which exist there they would be very impressed. While conditions are magnificent the discipline is firm; there is no such thing as mollycoddling these boys: they are being taught very useful crafts—woodwork, bootmaking, tailoring and motor mechanics and other useful trades of that kind. In addition they have indoor and outdoor recreations and even visits from boys' football and boxing clubs outside. There is nothing in the nature of mollycoddling.

I am pretty certain that most of these boys when they come out will not return. There is a magnificent visiting committee there taking a very keen and personal interest in all these boys and I am very glad to say that quite a number of the boys have been given employment by large firms in the city. So satisfied are the firms with the services they get from the boys that on numberous occasions they have repeated their applications for boys in the Institution and the visiting committee have great pleasure in recommending boys they regard as exceptionally good. The number of these young fellows who have been recommitted is very small. A few have returned but they are only a minority.

Deputy Sherwin, apparently, would give no credit to the police for the reduction in crime or the increase in its detection——

Mr. Sherwin

Not "no credit," some.

Mr. Traynor

He said the reduction in crime was because of the emigration of all the burglars and thieves to London.

Mr. Sherwin

Read my speech again.

Mr. Traynor

It is "a new one" for me to know that the burglars have to emigrate for want of work.

Mr. Sherwin

I did not say none— some of it was due to emigration.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Sherwin has already made his speech.

Mr. Sherwin

I gave some credit and to say that I gave no credit is a lie.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not use the word "lie".

Mr. Sherwin

If the Minister says that I gave no credit what am I to take out of that?

Mr. Traynor

I shall repeat that statement.

Mr. Sherwin

Read my speech again.

Mr. Traynor

It is because I read the Deputy's speech that I am stating this. The House knows that the Deputy has a very vivid imagination and that most of what he states arises out of that——

Mr. Sherwin

I know.

Mr. Traynor

He told us of all the people he met over there including the beggar who told him all his colleagues were now in London instead of Dublin——

Mr. Sherwin

That is true.

Mr. Traynor

And the reason for that is that the Dublin police made it too hot for these gentlemen to remain here.

Mr. Sherwin

They are part and parcel of emigration.

Mr. Traynor

Surely that is to the credit of the Dublin police.

Mr. Sherwin

He says I gave no credit. I repeat, that is a lie.

Mr. Traynor

The Deputy also said—and he will tell me this is a lie also—that we should protect the stores, that we should have the Ban-Ghardaí in plain clothes going through the big stores in the city to stop pilfering——

Mr. Sherwin

As part of their job.

Mr. Traynor

If the Deputy knew anything about the law he would not make that foolish statement because protection of shoppers from pilferers is a matter for the management of the stores and for them alone. The Garda could not operate unless they were called in by the management of the store to effect an arrest. The Deputy's views on that are as wrong as they were on the other matters.

Mr. Sherwin

They can be seen coming in when they are in uniform and the culprits can get out the back way.

Mr. Traynor

Some day, when the Deputy is Minister for Justice, he can change the law in that way.

Mr. Sherwin

Do not worry.

Mr. Traynor

Deputy Richie Ryan spoke about the necessity for pounds in the south city and accused my Department of not making provision because of the expense. The Department of Justice has no responsibility for providing pounds. That is the responsibility of the local authorities, in the case of Dublin City, of the Corporation. The most that the Garda can do is to recommend to me that there should be a pound in a certain place and I would make a request to the local authority if I saw fit. My information is that the pounds that are provided at the present moment are often not fully occupied.

Mr. Corish

I thought the Minister had power to insist on a local authority establishing a pound.

Mr. Palmer

So he has.

Mr. Traynor

Deputy Ryan also mentioned that there had been delays in making "negative" searches in the Registry of Deeds. While there was a disimprovement in the early months of the year in the time taken to deal with requests for negative searches, this was due in part to extensive sick leave of staff and also to the necessity for carrying out prolonged searches in connection with big estates. Arrangements have now been made to increase the number of staff available for this specialised work and it is expected that the grounds for complaint in relation to delays will be removed very soon.

The Deputy also criticised the appointment of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. Of course, that matter was not relevant to the debate because the Commissioner was appointed in 1952 and we are debating the Estimate for this year, not for 1952. Therefore, I can ignore that.

Deputy Ryan also talked about petitions. There is provision in the Criminal Justice Act, 1951, for the remission, in whole or in part, of penalties imposed in the criminal courts. Before that, clemency was exercised under the prerogative powers of mercy. In all cases in which any remission of any kind is made the decision is made by the Minister for Justice himself. As far as I am concerned, whenever I get petitions from Deputies I have them exaimed very carefully. I consult not only the Garda Officers responsible but also the district justice or the circuit court judge, as the case may be. Usually I find that these people are fair and reasonable, and if it is possible to recommend anything in the nature of clemency they have no hesitation in doing it and I have no hesitation in operating the recommendation if that is in the public interest.

Deputy Ryan also made scathing comments on the traffic in Dublin. He made slighting references to the Parliamentary Secretary. I think the Parliamentary Secretary has done a very fine job of work in trying to clear up what was a terribly chaotic situation in the city of Dublin. Traffic is moving reasonably smoothly at the present time, not perhaps as smoothly as we would like, but it is very difficult to get people who have been for a long time operating in a certain manner to operate in a completely different manner. When all is said and done, there is a definite improvement and I have no doubt whatever that when the Road Traffic Bill begins to operate improvement will be noticeable to a much greater degree.

Deputy Burke referred to the incidents on C.I.E. Sunday excursions. I was going to say to Deputy Burke that if C.I.E. applied to the Garda Síochána for aid, no doubt that aid would be forthcoming, but I notice that they have done that without intervention on my part and with very good results. I have already seen that they dealt with incidents on an excursion to Wexford.

Mr. Corish

They had to stop the train only once last Sunday.

Mr. Traynor

They took out a couple of these young blackguards at some intermediate station and left them there for the Garda Síochána to bring to trial. Strong measures will have to be taken to deal with that type of conduct. As Deputy Davern remarked here tonight, they went to Clonmel recently and almost wrecked a public house. As Deputy Davern remarked, if they had been there for another ten minutes the young men of Clonmel would have dealt with them very effectively but I am afraid it might have been in an illegal manner and therefore I could not say "hear, hear" to that suggestion.

Mr. Corish

Not aloud, anyhow.

Mr. Traynor

Deputy Jones criticised the inadequacy of the capitation grant of 25/- a week paid to institutions which run detention homes for girls. It must be remembered that the capitation grant is intended only to bridge the gap between the value the girl gives to the institution in the form of laundry work and the cost of keeping her. The grant was increased only about a year ago. It was 15/- and is now 25/-. Some little advance was made.

The Deputy also referred to the question of films. It is very difficult to deal with that question. A number of films that are shown in England and which eventually come here would not get a certificate here in Ireland at all but they might possibly get a limited certificate. The danger of the limited certificate is that it induces people, who might not otherwise want to do so, to see the film. In actual fact there might not be anything in the film to which an adult would object.

Recently I read a criticism of a television show by an English writer. He said that in the course of half an hour no less than 15 people were killed. He posed the question as to whether it is desirable in a civilised country like Great Britain to have shown in the family home the violent death of 15 people within such a short period of time. What are the films for which we want a limited certificate? We surely do not object, I take it, to the young boys looking at a Western film. These are the films in which, to my mind, life is made so cheap that they may give rise to crimes and vandalism in the big cities and towns. I doubt very much if the limited certificate would serve any useful purpose. It might, indeed, induce a large number of people to go to see that film in which they might not have any interest, otherwise.

Mr. Corish

If there were a limited certificate, they would not be allowed into a cinema.

Mr. Traynor

The difficulty about that is that you have to fix an age limit. Suppose the age limit were 18. Very few of us here would be able to say whether a young fellow of good physique was 18 years of age or 21. You would be up against that sort of difficulty. The best thing, I think, is to rely on the good sense of the film censor who, to my mind, is doing excellent work in the censoring of films.

There is an appeal against his censorship and it is remarkable that the number of successful appeals against his decisions have been extraordinarily small. I would say that the percentage was very low, which shows his good judgment. We can safely assume that if an appeal is allowed, it is a very close thing as to whether it should or should not be allowed. The tendency of the censor, I think, is in the right direction. I think we can trust him to do the right thing.

Mr. Corish

Instead of grading the films X, Y or Z, would the minister not ask the Censorship Board to evolve a system whereby certain pictures would be banned at children's matinees? Then, there would not be any question of deciding whether a person is 16, 18 or 21 years of age.

Mr. Traynor

The Deputy mentions children's matinees. A questionable film would not be shown at that type of show.

Mr. Corish

They are. The picture shown on Friday and Saturday nights down the country is the one shown on Saturday and Sunday afternoons.

Mr. Traynor

I should like the Deputy to give me an example of the type of film so that I can consider the matter further.

Mr. Corish

I will, indeed.

Mr. Traynor

Personally, I am satisfied that the film censor is doing an outstandingly good job of work.

Mr. Corish

I agree. I am thinking about children rather than the general public.

Mr. Traynor

There was also the questions of a ban on air guns, flick knives, slings and other things of that kind. I am just wondering whether it would be possible to bring in legislation to deal with that type of thing. I do not think it would be. As long as boys are boys, they will have slings and air guns. They will act as boys. I was surprised the other day when somebody raised the question in respect of Cork. The suggestion was made that we should ban the flick knife because of the dangerous use made of it. When I examined the situation in regard to Cork, where there appeared to have been a number of attacks with knives, I was surprised to find that of something like 17 attacks, only two flick knives were involved. The majority of them, I think, involved penknives which you can hardly ban. One involved a bread knife and there were two, I think, involving boy scout knives.

I was going through a stores in the city the other day and I was surprised to see what appeared to me to be a terribly dangerous-looking boy scout knife in a scabbard. The price was only 2/6d. or something like that. That shows how easy it is to get these things but to bring in legislation to ban the use of these, I think, would be undesirable. Some other methods will have to be adopted, such as very severe punishment for the illegal use of flick knives.

Deputy O'Donnell raised the question of the appointment of P.C.s. He fell out with me over that. As Deputy Palmer said to him, he must be a very innocent politician if he thinks that I am going to appoint his nominees. We all know that the appointment of P.C.'s is a patronage business. Despite that, I have on a number of occasions appointed people who were put up to me by people like the Deputy but it was after consultation with the other local Deputy. There is no reason in the world why Deputy O'Donnell could not have consulted——

Mr. O'Donnell

The reason the Church of Ireland man was turned down was that you consulted the other local Deputy and he would not sanction it. I should like that to go on record.

Mr. Traynor

Is the Deputy suggesting that because the man was a Church of Ireland man he was turned down?

Mr. O'Donnell

That is what I take from reading the Minister's speech.

Mr. Traynor

I have appointed quite a number of people of religions other than ours. I had great pleasure in doing so because the people concerned were outstandingly good, decent, public-spirited citizens.

Mr. O'Donnell

So was the man I recommended.

Mr. Traynor

I had no hesitation in doing it. The appointment of P.C.s is a patronage of the Government in office.

Mr. O'Donnell

So that all P.C.s must be supporters of the Government.

Mr. Traynor

There is a way in which the Deputy could do it. There is no reason in the world why the Deputy could not have consulted with his colleague in the constituency and said: "I want to recommend so-and-so. Will you support me?"

Mr. O'Donnell

The Protestant minority are not represented.

Mr. Traynor

Deputy Byrne complained about illegal moneylending. I think he suggested the rate of interest charged was 100 per cent. If he gives me the information, I will be delighted to have the matter dealt with by the police. I think Deputy O'Donnell also suggested—I hope I am not taking him up wrongly—that a solicitor could not be appointed to the circuit court, or that a solicitor who is a——

Mr. O'Donnell

District justice.

Mr. Traynor

——district justice may not be appointed. That has always been the position.

Mr. O'Donnell

I suggested that in view of the fact that such a person may now become Chief District Justice, he should be eligible for appointment as a circuit court judge.

Mr. Traynor

That was considered——

Mr. O'Donnell

I was suggesting that the Minister might consider it.

Mr. Traynor

——and apparently it was not acceptable. The Deputy also referred to the fact that the judiciary are appointed on a political basis. It may appear that way, and that has always been done I suppose since the State was established.

Mr. O'Donnell

Admittedly.

Mr. Traynor

It may appear that way although the person appointed may not, in fact, be what I might describe as a live politician, in so far as he would not take any active part in politics. Because he was appointed by a Party Government, he may be dubbed as being of the same brand politically. I do not think anyone will say that the judiciary are not an effective judiciary, or that they are not honest.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am not making any such suggestion.

Mr. Traynor

That is what I am saying. No one would suggest that, and I think we can be reasonably proud of the manner in which the judiciary in general deal with the cases coming before them. There can be no suspicion whatever that they deal with them in what could be described as a political manner.

I have tried to deal with everything that has been raised. As I said a few moments ago, this is the last Estimate I shall have the privilege and pleasure of bringing before the House. I would be glad naturally to go out on the pleasant note which has always operated between me and my colleagues on both sides of the House.

Question: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration" put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.