The Deputy must accept the apologies of the caller for that. We expect a further decline in telegram traffic. It would appear as if the decline will be mostly in internal traffic. The Post Office keep the telex service under review all the time. Its growth is being watched and whatever steps are necessary in order to keep the service up to date will be taken at the appropriate time.
The question of sub-postmasters was raised by several Deputies and many of them pressed for arbitration for sub-postmasters. Deputy Blowick made a very strong plea. So did Deputy O.J. Flanagan. Deputy Blowick asked me if I thought sub-postmasters were living in the lap of luxury? Of course I do not, any more than any other section of the community is living in the lap of luxury. Most sections have to work and they get a reasonable return for their labours. Very few in our community live in the lap of luxury. Does Deputy Blowick think that, because other sections have got arbitration, they are living in the lap of luxury? There are many sections that have not got arbitration. Farmers complain bitterly that they have no method by which their income can be assessed. Small traders, artisans and tradesmen provide a useful service for the community, but they have not got arbitration.
There is a history attached to this matter of arbitration for sub-postmasters. In 1949, the then Government, of which Deputy Blowick was a member and Deputy O.J. Flanagan was a supporter, ruled out sub-postmasters from participation in arbitration and conciliation. They ruled them out because they were not regarded as civil servants. Apparently the sub-postmasters union did not press the matter until 1952 and 1953. Further correspondence on this question of arbitration took place in 1956. Through the good offices of the Minister at the time the sub-postmasters consultative council was set up. But they did not get arbitration or conciliation. Indeed, the then Government went to great pains at the time to take conciliation out and put in the word "consultative" in the descriptive title of the council set up.
The same reasons were advanced then as were advanced in 1949 for the refusal to admit subpostmasters into the arbitration scheme. It was contended subpostmasters were not civil servants. They are appointed by answering advertisements which appear in local sub-offices. They make application by filling in a form and they contract to perform certain work for the Department of Post and Telegraphs. They contract to do that work under a certain system. They offer the premises. They must offer the premises as otherwise they would not be considered at all. They promise to conform to the rules and regulations applicable to the office. They offer to provide the service the Post Office demands of them. All that is written in in the agreement. They agree to accept the payment under the system laid down by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. One would need to be very well versed in Civil Service practice to have a clear picture of how the salary a subpostmaster receives is arrived at. Last year the subpostmasters union did not like my description of subpostmasters as contractors. I used the term "contractor" in the sense I have now explained to the House. They enter into a contractual arrangement with the Department to perform certain work.
The subpostmasters union asked again for arbitration in 1959. They were refused for the same reasons as they were refused in 1949 and 1956. But that refusal does not imply they are living in the lap of luxury. All it means is that, as far as the Government and the Minister of the day are concerned, the subpostmasters claim to arbitration is not being acceded to. The position at the moment is that this question is not under consideration.
Other matters, such as conditions and pay, are the subject of a claim by the subpostmasters union before the consultative council. Some Deputies complained about the length of time it took to decide some claims. It takes a long time to deal with some aspects of the claims made by civil servants and other people. Even if the subpostmasters had arbitration, matters would not, in my opinion, be accelerated. The consultative council is still in existence; these matters can be discussed there and, if agreement is reached, I believe sanction is automatic. A decision has recently been made on a claim by the subpostmasters for an increase in the minimum rate of payment for small offices.
I am precluded from making any comment on the proceedings of the council since they are treated as confidential. It is not a fact, as alleged by Deputy Oliver Flanagan, that the sequence of council meetings was interfered with in any way by the Department. There was only one occasion on which a meeting was not held. It arose out of a dispute between the sub-postmasters and the Department. The matter was resolved and explained to the union at the council meeting. The meeting was deferred on another occasion because the subpostmasters union asked that it be deferred. Those were the only occasions on which there was any disagreement about the holding of a meeting. The regulations under which the Council was set up in 1956 provide for three-monthly meetings. You would have to have business for each meeting. It would be senseless having a meeting if there was nothing to discuss. I do not think there is anything further to say on subpostmasters.
The question of postmen was raised. The established postman has a pension scheme, and gratuities are payable to other postmen. Deputies know the changes that have been made reducing the qualifying period from 15 years to seven for the unestablished and auxiliary postmen. To initiate a contributory pension scheme for every postman would present many difficulties. First, we must consider the manner in which auxiliary postmen enter the service. They come in on a list supplied by the labour exchange. The person appointed can be of any age from 18 to 50, and over 50 in certain excepted cases. For a long time the Department has been trying to get uniformity of hours for auxiliary postmen generally. They try to fit that in with the reorganisation of postal services which has been going on over the years with the object of providing a six day delivery in all posts. I have not gone into this question of providing a contributory pension scheme for auxiliary postmen, but I can see the difficulty in providing any scheme that would be of material benefit.
Other minor matters were raised concerning postmen in rural areas. I do not think I am called upon to deal with the question of providing motor scooter transport for postmen. There is no change in the regulations in that regard. The local postman, if he wishes, can use motorised transport. There are many difficulties facing a postman in that regard. There is the provision of the transport itself, the delivery of letters down long, narrow lanes and so on. There is also the question of replacements for the holiday season. I would rather see more men employed than have fewer men using mechanically propelled vehicles.
Deputy Norton asked me about the grants payable out of funds and gratuities under the Superannuation Acts. Part-time officers whose grants are payable from the Minister's Special Fund are already being given the benefit of the reduction in the qualifying period from 15 to seven years. Fulltime unestablished officers whose grants are paid under the Superannuation Acts cannot receive the benefit of the reduction in qualifying service until the passage of legislation. This is a matter for the Minister for Finance. The Deputy also asked me if I would break down the figure of 258 increase in staff in the Department. The break-down is: engineering staff, 179; telephonists 80. These are the main figures. There are some other minor increases and decreases. Deputy Norton also asked me about the building programme of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. In my opening speech I gave some indication of our building programme in the year under review and the very near future. I do not think it would be wise now to take up the time of the House giving a long lists of all the places in which the Post Office plans to develop existing buildings or to erect new ones. I would point out that the Department plans ahead for two or three years at a time but the Office of Public Works actually prepares the drawings and arranges for the building.
Complaints have been made on many occasions in the past and during this debate concerning delays in the erection of particular buildings for the postal authorities. Some Deputies have complained as well that certain commencement dates have been behind schedule. We accept the information we get from the Office of Public Works as to commencement dates. In some cases plans have to be altered because of late decisions to have bigger buildings or in order to provide Post Office engineering staffs with additional facilities and equipment. On other occasions delays are due to extra work in the Office of Public Works in connection with the State's general building programme.
It must be remembered that the State had to set out to improve the housing facilities of our people. Long years of arrears in that work had to be overtaken. The building of national schools also had high priority and the State was vitally interested in improved school facilities. It is commendable to see that successive Governments not alone interested themselves in providing decent housing and schools but that they also tackled the problem of public building throughout the country. But of course private housing and schools always had prior claims on the capital available year by year. I can assure the House that insofar as my Department is concerned our aim is, as far as possible, to provide the country with offices that would meet the requirements of the public and that will add to the attractiveness of our local towns.
Deputy Norton asked me about the Central Sorting Office and quoted me as saying last year that I hoped the pile foundations would go down this year. Since then a decision has been taken that pile foundations will not be necessary and the question has now resolved itself as to when a start can be made on the erection of the office on a foundation without piles. I would not venture an opinion as to the commencement date but it is hoped to have the tenders for the erection of the steel frame work issued in the near future. The tender for the erection of the main building will then be decided upon without undue delay.
I was pressed by many Deputies to provide certain areas throughout the country with telephone kiosks and new sub-post offices. In that connection I should like to point out that my aim is to see the Post Office pays its way one year with another. Down through the years the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has refused to erect kiosks or to establish new sub-post offices in areas where it has been obvious the Department would be unlikely to get a fair return for the capital expended in the provision of such buildings.
That policy may appear to be hard on the rural community but as I have already explained, it is expected of the Department that it should pay its way. I would point out that the surplus which accrued each year to the credit of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is very modest if we compare it with the amount of capital invested and the amount of service given to the public, so that even the slightest variation in income would upset the balance at the end of any given year. As a matter of fact, in 1956 the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, said: "Indeed it would not be inappropriate that the Department should make some contribution by way of profit to the general Exchequer revenue."
The policy of the Department is, and I thoroughly agree with it myself, that so far as telephone kiosks are concerned, the Department will see to it that a kiosk will be erected wherever there is a prospect of its paying its way and the same applies to sub-post offices. You could not conduct the business of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs on any other system; otherwise you would have to look for a subvention from the Exchequer to subsidise the working of the Post Office and I think that would be a very bad principle upon which to conduct the affairs of an important Department such as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.
In that connection, it would be just as well for us to realise that this country is already provided with post offices on a more generous scale than in the great majority of postal administrations throughout the world. We have a post office on the average for every 1,250 persons.
There is an important matter which was raised here by Deputy Oliver Flanagan in connection with overcharging in telephone accounts. I should like to deal with that. I answered a question earlier in the year in connection with it and when one answers a question the information contained may not be sufficient to give a full picture of the situation that obtained. I should like first of all to put the matter in its proper perspective. Every quarter the Accounts Branch of my Department makes out accounts for some 33,000,000 local calls, three and a quarter million trunk calls, plus charges for phonograms, removals, etc. About 105,000 accounts are sent out and collected. Only in a tiny minority of cases are the accounts disputed.
The policy has been, and is, to consider carefully and sympathetically every inquiry or complaint and in cases, where there is a doubt, to give the subscriber the benefit of it. In this regard I believe that the Post Office can stand comparison with any other large organisation in regard to the manner in which it deals with such complaints. As regards faults in or affecting telephone meters, it appears that it has come as a surprise to many people that not only do such faults occur but that their existence is actually admitted by the Post Office. Of course, faults affecting meters do occur not only in the telephone service here but in every country that uses them.
Moreover, practically every other service which uses meters finds that they are subject to faults of some kind. One cannot achieve perfection in this field —at least not without prohibitive cost. The system has not been designed which will give 100 per cent. accuracy at all times. Meanwhile, the most we can do is to use the best equipment obtainable and to try to keep faults and errors to a minimum. I have already stated that we use equipment of the best quality and standard of accuracy obtainable and everything reasonably possible is done in the way of checks, proper maintenance, etc., to keep the number of faults to the lowest possible level.
Some concern has been expressed that it is not possible to say how many cases of faulty meters have occurred. I have already given the number of actual and suspected cases in which refunds were made and pointed out that the number is only a small fraction of the total number of accounts issued during the quarter in question. One of the difficulties in determining the precise number is that faults occur in equipment associated with the meters which may or may not affect the meter. It is difficult, therefore, to segregate and prove the probable from the doubtful case. I do not accept that the number of overcharging cases is serious or abnormal or that subscribers are likely to be overcharged unless they keep a record. Some people do keep records, but most are satisfied to compare their bills from one quarter to another.
The average quarterly bill for the ordinary household is not as big as some people imagine. In Dublin where the local calling rate is highest over 70 per cent. make less than three calls per day. Our experience is that any marked discrepancy from quarter to quarter in such accounts is quickly challenged. The Accounts Branch also keeps a watch on any abnormal changes which may suggest an error in the meter reading or recording apparatus. There are standing instructions that service must not be normally withdrawn when subscribers will not pay a disputed account. This cannot be adhered to in all cases. Finally, while I can give no guarantee that faults of the kind in question will or can be eliminated, I can assure the House that everything possible will be done to keep the number to a minimum to ensure as far as practicable that no subscriber will be overcharged.
Deputy T. Lynch made a suggestion in connection with telephone directories, that he wished to have established a system whereby a local trader or local group of people could have a local telephone directory of its own. I had the matter examined because I thought myself that it might be a commendable thing and I wanted to see whether there was any merit in it. It is very doubtful whether there is any demand for a local telephone directory at the present. The exclusive rights of publishing advertisements are vested in the agents appointed for the purpose and while that arrangement exists the publication of local directories is not permitted. If it were permitted, there would be a danger that they would continue to be used long after changes had been made in the numbers shown in such directories. On the whole I think that the present arrangement of having numbers shown in the official Post Office Directory is the best one.
