Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 May 1961

Vol. 189 No. 8

Committee On Finance. - Vota 30—Oifig an Aire Oideachais (Atógáil).

Debate resumed on the motion: "Go gcuirfí an Meastachán siar chun a athbhreithnithe"— (Ristéard Ua Maolchatha).

Mr. Sherwin

When I reported progress last week I was about to refer to the lack of physical training in the schools. In July, 1929, Mr. Farrell, Chairman of the National Coaching Society, gave as his opinion that this country was greatly lacking in physical training, especially physical training for schoolchildren. He expressed the view that, looking at people going along the street, it was quite obvious that their lack of proper poise and balance was due to their not having received physical training in their youth. I noticed an advertisement in Saturday's Irish Press which stated: “A physical training course for men teachers in national schools will be held at St. Patrick's Training College, Drumcondra, Dublin, from July 17th to 28th. Application forms, available from the Department of Education, must be returned by June 30th.” I do not know whether this is an innovation or not. So far, no policy statement has been made by the Minister that physical training is to be part of the curriculum for schoolchildren.

I am not aware of any sum in the Estimate for any specialised training or for the engaging of any specialists for this purpose. Perhaps the Minister would enlighten us about this training course? Is it for the benefit of the teachers or is it intended that the knowledge gained will be applied to the children by the teachers? Assuming that it is an innovation and that the Minister is thinking of physical training in the schools, I should like him to know that, apart from any physical training teachers may receive, there is need for expert and specialised advice. Physical training can be compared with training on the barrack square. We know that N.C.O.s are quite efficient but they know nothing of the art of war. They speak their training parrot-like. When it comes down to the art of the thing, they know little or nothing. Likewise, a physical training instructor may be able to tell a group of boys to put their arms forward and to put them down to their sides again, but there is a lot more to it than that.

If all children had to undergo an examination by an expert, one out of every ten would be considered a physical defective. You cannot put a physical defective through the training applicable to a normally healthy youth. A physically defective child must receive specialised treatment. An ordinary trainer could not apply such knowledge because he has not got it. Knowledge of this sort cannot be learned on a short course. A movement of the body affects certain muscles, as I know from a study of anatomy, and another movement of the body has a contrary effect. If you use the right side of your body, it may cultivate certain muscles on that side, but it will also cultivate muscles on the other side. Therefore, this study of the effects of each physical act requires specialised knowledge. A trainer who has done a short course will not be qualified to give instruction and, in fact, his instruction could be dangerous.

For instance, if a child had a slight curvature, what would the ordinary physical trainer know about treating that? He could cause paralysis. Supposing a child were developed on one side and not on the other, what would the instructor know about that? A man in ordinary industrial employment in many cases uses only his right arm and naturally it becomes highly developed, while the left is not similarly developed. That is why boxers in training often have their right hands tied to their sides and are made to punch a bag with their left hands so that they will be equally developed on both sides.

It is said that no chain is stronger than its weakest link and therefore a man is only as strong as his muscles. When you use a muscle, it brings into play other muscles which may be weak and you can only do as much as the weak muscle will stand. The point I am making is that there are children who are physically defective and it is necessary that all children, before being subjected to physical training, should get a check-over by an expert and that those found to be defective should be put into a special class to get special advice. It is not enough to have some physical trainer who has done a short course of instruction. The Minister should have a specialist attached to the Department to advise him at all times.

I know what I am talking about. I studied anatomy and muscles and I happen to have made many visits to homes for crippled children. I had reason to visit such institutions because I was partly crippled myself at one time. I hope that what I read in the newspapers on Saturday means a new departure but I would ask the Minister to go a little further. One of the evening newspapers quoted a coach at Santry who said this was only a beginning. That is all it is. The Minister should have a specialist available to give advice to these instructors and in regard to the need for special classes in the case of children with physical defects.

Something should be done, apart from physical training, about swimming. It is terrible that children should fall into ponds and such places and be drowned while adults can do nothing about it. I read in an English newspaper yesterday of two brothers who fell into a quarry; two adults who came to the scene could not help because they could not swim. They feared they would be drowned. That is a pitiful state of affairs.

I think it was Deputy O'Malley who mentioned that we could house visitors in some schools in summer. We have swimming pools which are not much used in winter, and similarly, they would provide an opportunity for holding classes for children in winter if the water were heated. With local authorities, the emphasis is on building swimming pools and this should be developed. Children should be taught to swim and should get physical training and those with physical defects should get special training.

Schools should be encouraged to compete in sports and games. The average child does not know his own potentialities; only when he wins a race does he know that he is good. Only in competitions can children learn their own capabilities and other people discover their talents. Spotters will go around and encourage the more successful children to enter various athletic teams; that will advance the whole athletic programme and perhaps give us a better chance in the Olympic Games. We had very little success this year even though we were only a very small country against the world. The representatives of this country were the product of a few, a handful, of voluntary clubs and associations but, if our school children got a chance of training and an outlet, our representatives in future would be the product of many organisations.

This has another importance. As we know, people often fail in something because they are not "in form". That applies to a child also. If a child is not "in form" in school he will not come out on top in his school subjects because he will be unable to concentrate. It is a well-known fact that the reason for the failure of some famous men in history is that they suffered from ill-health at some stage of their career. Napoleon lost the battle of Leipzig and, incidentally, his future career, as a result of illness. These considerations apply even to school children. They may suffer through poor breathing which makes them unable to concentrate. Their bodies must be in good condition and nothing is as good as exercise. Many people suffer from stomach trouble which exercise could cure. If children are in good physical shape they will do better at their lessons.

I want to repeat what I said about the need for expert advice. Physical training can harm certain children while it can do no harm to normal children. It is notable that children with physical defects become worse as they grow older just like an old, falling house. The incline continues in the one direction. I would go so far as to say that half the cripples in this country are cripples because of some physical defect that was not corrected in their youth. An ordinary trainer cannot help these children. It needs a good surgeon to sum up such a case and know the right answer.

About a year ago I asked the Minister how many schools did not supply school meals and the answer I got was about seven. I understand it depends on the school manager whether or not meals are supplied. If the manager applies, the local authority will supply the meals and, if he does not, there will be no school meals. This should not rest with the school manager. Some managers are a bit snobbish and do not like it to be said that the children need school meals. Some of the children may not but some may. It should be mandatory on the manager to apply for the meals if there is a demand and it should be left to the children to say whether they want them. Those who apply for them should get them. I object to this idea of any individual deciding whether meals will or will not be provided. On one occasion when a manager was questioned he said: "I do not want the job of cleaning up the school." That is no excuse. Whatever mess bread or cakes might make there is nothing messy about a bottle of milk. I would ask the Minister to consider the question of managers having the sole right of deciding whether children should receive bottles of milk.

The only other point I wish to raise is that I think the Minister should consider the question of raising the school leaving age. It is a question which is often discussed. I know that the difficulty is that there is not sufficient accommodation but it is a fact that children are leaving school at 14 and they are not sufficiently educated. While there is a considerable outlet in employment for girls, there is practically no outlet that I know of for boys. If the Minister considers this matter, I would suggest that the age could be raised gradually, that is, that he could raise the age for the boys first. It would give them a chance in life so that they would have a fair knowledge of Irish and English. The question of raising the school leaving age for boys to 15 should be considered.

Donnchadh Mac Seoin

Tá cáineadh go leor le cloisint fé láthair maidir le oideachas sa tír seo fiú amháin san Meastachán seo, agus, mar sin, ba mhian liom go mbeadh focal fós ón Aire maidir le caighdeán na hoiliúna atá le fáil anso.

Deireann an tAire go bhfuil sé sásta airgead—nó tuille airgid—a sholáthar má tá gá leis, ach ní dóigh liom ón méid atá san ráiteas seo go bhfuil sé sásta leis an gcóras oideachais go fóill.

Ba mhian liom mar sin go nochtfadh sé na lochtanna atá ann agus má táid ann a innsint cá bhfuil siad agus cad tá ar intinn aige a dhéanamh chun iad san a leigheas.

Ós rud é go bhfuil tagairt in oráid an Aire do chaighdeán na Gaeilge atá ag mic léinn ag deire cúrsa tréineála, ba mhian liom a fhiafraí den Aire cén caighdeán a bheidh ann do labhairt na Gaeilge as so amach, agus an mbainfead sé seo le nua-mhúinteóirí ar fad. In óráid an Aire—leathanach 6—deineann sé tagairt don rud seo nuair deireann sé: "... tá socair agam athrú do dhéanamh ins na rialacha a bhaineann le cáilíochta Gaeilge le haghaidh múinteoirí náisiúnta," agus "Tá ar intinn go mbeadh caighdeán an-ard sa triail sin, caighdeán nach sroisfí, de ghnáth, ach ag an gcainteoir ó dhúchas nó ag an té go raibh tréimhsí caite sa Ghaeltacht aige." B'fhéidir ga ndéanfaidh an Aire tagairt don rud seo agus é ag freagairt. Agus an n-innseódh sé dúinn an bhfuil rud cosúil leis ar intinn aige do mheán-scoileanna ós rud é go bhfuil béal-thriall ann anois don i gcóir na mac-léinn?

In this debate each year at about this time we get a rash of criticism in regard to the educational system. The educational system is concerned with the four sections, if you like, which go to make up those engaged in education, whether on the receiving end, the administrative end or those who are giving instruction—the children, the teachers, the administrative staff, the programmes laid down and school buildings and equipment. Equally we have the four stages, primary, secondary, vocational and university. The figures which the Minister has produced in his statement show that the number of children in all sections have increased. That is a healthy sign. It is a healthy sign when we find that in the primary schools at the moment there are over 500,000 children and that the ratio of teachers to pupils has been reduced somewhat although it has not been reduced sufficiently, as the Minister admits in his statement. We hope that that ratio can be reduced further to the benefit of the children receiving instruction.

There is no comment from anybody in regard to the administrative side because the administration of education has its own peculiar form and it is outside the scope of any debate. With regard to the building programme, I notice in the Minister's statement the large number of children catered for. I hope he will not overlook the fact that the number of schools is important. A single large school may cater for 1,000 pupils but what is needed is a programme which has been laid down of 100 schools a year. The small two-teacher school is very important so far as primary education is concerned.

I am very glad that the Minister has been able to deal with this question of maintenance. It is not generally appreciated with regard to the maintenance of primary schools that the local manager is in the position of holding this baby. It is regarded as being his job to provide for the maintenance of the school. I am glad, therefore, that the Minister has come to his assistance because I am afraid that the manager had nothing but what he got from the local community by way of voluntary contribution. It is very praiseworthy that school buildings should be maintained in a sound condition. Perhaps the Minister would indicate in his reply how often the allowances he referred to will be given. Will they be by way of annual grant and will they be applicable to certain stated purposes?

The four stages of education should sustain one another. Naturally, we would all hope that education would be a continuing progress and that, from the primary stage, the pupils would move to the secondary or vocational, and later to the university stage. That, of course, is not feasible for all because of lack of opportunity by reason of financial considerations or the areas in which the children live. A further hindrance to this lack of continuity is that there is not a sufficient link between the teaching services available. When the teaching staffs at the various stages of education can compare unfavourably their conditions, remuneration and otherwise, it is not very healthy and does not lead to harmony between them. Very often, it is a hindrance to obtaining the best results. Therefore, I think it is advisable, when considering these matters, that nothing should be done that would in any way unnecessarily disparage any section of the teaching profession.

Sometimes people attempt to measure educational progress, or the amount of work done educationally, on a financial basis. There is no method which can measure the influence of teachers on those who come into contact with them. It is essentially a relationship of the mind and consequently there is no measure in the ordinary way that can be applied to it. Indeed, there can be no reward in the ordinary way in monetary terms. Incalculable harm can be done, if those imparting education feel dissatisfied with their conditions, or become unmindful of their vocation to teach.

Teaching is not a job, as it has been referred to at times; it is a vocation. We can be justifiably proud that that vocation has never been looked on from the mere money point of view. The teaching profession has given something to the country which cannot in any sense be measured in terms of material benefit conferred. Reference has been made to that fact already and tributes have been paid to the teachers. In this country where we profess to be Christian, a Christian education requires a dedicated teacher. Anyone who knows the type of work which has to be done in all the stages of education will appreciate how much tact and patience are absolutely necessary on the part of those engaged in teaching to get from the material at their disposal the type of result they set out to achieve.

There is need also for something in the nature of guidance for children. In some primary schools, because of the size of the classes and because some teachers have two, three or four classes to deal with, they have not the opportunity to give that guidance. Indeed, some teachers might not have the up-to-date information which would be of benefit to the adolescents in their charge. There is a necessity for such guidance at all levels, from primary to university. Even at university level, students have difficulty in deciding what type of career to pursue. In secondary schools, even at the end of their last term, students often cannot make up their minds as to what walk of life they wish to follow. While education can fit people generally for a career in life, we should give more specialised advice on what bent a child should follow which seems to suit him.

I mentioned last year that there should be a link between the secondary and vocational schools. When a child finishes in the primary school, he goes to the vocational school, if one is available, or to a secondary school. We never hear of a child going from a secondary school to a vocational school. I believe in the age in which we live, and the age which is opening up before us, there is a necessity for secondary school students to proceed to a technical education. By so doing, they will equip themselves with a sound educational basis and become first-class technicians. We would not find ourselves depending so often on foreign instruction for our technicians, if people, on finishing their secondary education, availed of the technical educational facilities available.

It is not so long since the E.S.B. advertised for a couple of trainee surveyors. Leaving Certificate standard was specified in the advertisement. From inquiries I made, I believe the Board had something like roughly 600 applications for the two posts. A selection had to be made from many students who had secured numerous Honours in the Leaving Certificate examination and who were seeking employment with the Board. We are living in an industrial and technical age, with the advent of the Common Market and so on, and we could, with advantage, siphon off quite a number of Leaving Certificate holders to the highest training in our technical schools.

In that respect, I made mention previously of technological colleges. We might with advantage do something about technological training. That type of education is available in Dublin but it is not available in the country generally. Its availability would help a great deal in the industrial progress we hope to make in the future. Technical instruction is not readily available to all. At the moment pupils have to travel seven, eight or ten miles to vocational schools. I know it is not feasible to provide such schools in any and every centre but the building programme could be accelerated. Where the committee have considered the matter and decided to build a school, the programme should be speeded up. If we are to take our place in the sun, we cannot afford to wait too long. If we allow the opportunity to pass, those willing to establish industries may decide against doing so because of a dearth of trained personnel and in the long run, it will be the economy of the country which will lose.

Secondary education is not available to all who should benefit from it. In some constituencies, lay people are providing secondary schools, thereby giving children the opportunity of this type of education. Children from these schools are able to obtain good posts in the Civil Service and elsewhere. The important point is that they have not been compelled to emigrate. I believe that the people who found these schools should be given some assistance in respect of building by the Department of Education.

Deputy Lindsay referred to languages. Now that we are on the threshold of the Common Market, more and more continental languages will need to be studied, particularly those which are regarded as commercial languages.

I listened with interest to Deputy O'Malley's suggestion as to the use of schools as an adjunct to the activities of Bord Fáilte. We have one example of that in Kylemore. The only difficulty is that most schools use the holiday period for carrying out renovation, etc. but if the suggestion does not interfere, I think it is worthy of support.

The Minister mentioned last year that he intended to increase the number of scholarships available for post-primary education. He also said he intended to increase the number of university scholarships. Now that education is becoming more appreciated, it is important that these scholarships should be increased in number.

With regard to music, the position is at the moment that, if a scholarship is obtained in Galway through the medium of Irish, then the scholarship must be taken at Galway University. Galway University has no music faculty and therefore it is not possible for a student to avail of such a scholarship. I think such students should be permitted to take out a degree in music in Cork University. It does seem unfair that a brilliant student who wishes to take a degree in music should be prohibited from doing so.

I join with Deputy O'Malley in relation to the claims of Limerick for a university. However, this is something Limerick will place before the Commission when the time comes. Deputy O'Malley referred to the Faculty of Agriculture and said we were starved for graduates. As a result of inquiries, I have discovered that of 80 graduates last year in Agricultural Science, only 35 found employment at home. The remainder were exported.

There are 500,000 children in our primary schools. That fact speaks for itself. The Minister gave a figure of some 26,000-odd receiving technical education. The universities run somewhere in the region of 20,000. The majority of our people receive a primary education and they should be ensured of the best. There are, of course, many factors involved. There is the question of healthy children, proper surroundings adequate equipment, trained staff. Anybody who has anything to do with schools knows that not every child is a normal child and a good deal of leeway needs to be made up in providing education for mentally and physically handicapped children.

The schools which are being provided are conducive to the type of work which should be done in them. There may be minor faults but we shall have an opportunity of discussing these on the Vote for the Office of Public Works. With regard to equipment, in the girls' schools and in the infant schools, the staff are still expected to provide the necessary materials and equipment. I appeal to the Minister to take some steps to remedy that position.

The Minister has done something in regard to the sizes of classes. I hope he will continue his efforts to reduce the ratio between teacher and pupils. I welcome the improvements made in that regard.

The school staffs have been referred to. I do not wish to dwell on it but there is no doubt that at the present time the primary schools staffs are not satisfied. They are very far from it. They are a very dissatisfied staff at the present time. Having said that—I am sure the Minister appreciates the reason for it—I do not wish to dwell further on it at present.

The Minister's figures in this statement are hopeful. The real question in Irish education is the environment in which we seek to progress. If the environment is what it should be, then everything else will be all right. The progress towards that ideal environment for all grades of education is not as satisfactory as everybody would wish it to be. The Minister infers that in his opening statement when he says that more money is needed to provide a satisfactory type of education.

Cooperation is needed in education more than anywhere else. Cooperation is necessary between the various people engaged in education, between the various systems of education, be tween the parents, the teachers and the pupils. It was refreshing to hear the point of view expressed by Deputy Lindsay, one which normally, I am sure any teacher would not attempt to put forward for the simple reason that it might be inferred that he was saying it just to suit his own line. It has to be realised that modern conditions affect both the work and the discipline of schools.

Criticism of education is all right if that criticism is helpful, fair and realistic, but it is not always so. There are sometimes those who belittle the type of education available in this country. There are sometimes those who criticise for the sake of criticism and actually prostitute the cause they profess to serve, the interests of education as a whole and of the child in particular. There is not much use in criticising in general when one ought to be specific. There is nobody who will deny that there may be occasions when criticism is necessary but to generalise and to attempt to give the impression that all is not well and that the type of education available here is of a lower order than elsewhere is something which needs serious reconsideration by those who make such allegations.

There are people who say quite frequently and blatantly that children in this country are illiterate, that they cannot compete with their counterparts across the water or anywhere else. As one who has had some experience of children from across the water, both from visiting their country and having some of them here during the war years, I can say quite freely that the Irish child at any stage is as well equipped educationally as any child who ever came from across the water. Irish boys and girls who have gone to other countries have been well able to hold their own.

People speak sometimes of the beauty of a building being enhanced by each storey which is built. Primarily, its lasting beauty must depend on the foundation. So, too, in education. The worth and beauty of education depend upon the foundation the children get. The type of foundation our children have got, are continuing to get and will get, in the primary schools is sound, good, beautiful and spiritual. The little school, the school at the back of the hill, to which the tiny tots go and where some of our boys and girls finish their education is providing the same type of foundation as it ever provided, which proved in the past to be a sound type of education, the foundation on which the youth of the country have succeeded in going on to secondary, technical and university education, and as a result of which they have been, when they have gone abroad, a credit to themselves, to the educational system which produced them and to the parents who gave them their opportunity in life. The teachers in all grades recognise that they are privileged in that matter, that they are privileged to take part in that education of youth. It is their vocation.

Anybody who has read Padraig Pearse's The Murder Machine and knows the type of castigation which he used against the outside influence on education, the control which was foreign to us at that time, the materialistic treatment and conception, could not but be struck at present by the changes that have been wrought now that we have the direction of affairs in our own hands. The Minister today is in the position, as Ministers have been since the foundation of the State, of trying to gather up the various ends of education so as to bring them together to give us a system which will avoid the ills of the past and will keep us from the pitfalls in the future. That is the role of the Minister for Education. He must create a proper type of environment in which the various facets of education can be set.

Before I conclude, I should like again to refer as I did previously, to the treasures which we have in our National Gallery and National Museum, to which reference is made in the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee from time to time. We ought to do something about providing more room so that these treasures may be properly housed and located and more readily seen by the people. There is no reason in the world why the young people living in remote places should not have the opportunity of seeing these treasures which speak the past to the present. I made an appeal on a former occasion that some of these collections might be taken about and exhibited in various places where there are civic museums. It would do much to help our people to realise the rich heritage we have in the National Museum and the National Gallery.

I hope that before the Minister concludes the debate he will give us his estimate of how Irish education stands at present. There are a great many people giving estimates of education. There are a great many people who pass condemnation on Irish education at present. It would be refreshing if the Minister, with the facilities he has at his disposal, being able to draw on the information available in his Department concerning all spheres of education, told the Irish people from this House how Irish education stands. Is it really as bad as some people would have us believe or is Irish education really progressing, as I believe it is, perhaps not making enormous strides, but soundly based, soundly proceeding, not perhaps fulfilling all the dreams of everybody for every child of the nation but providing for all at least that amount which we ought at all times to be ready to give to a rising generation on which the future of any country always depends?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.