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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Jun 1961

Vol. 190 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Health (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."— (Deputy T.F. O'Higgins.)

I dealt last night with the Minister's apologia pro vita sua for holding up the building of necessary hospitals and his provision of this money now when that work could have been efficiently proceeding during the past three years. The Minister interjected to defend himself on the ground that his credit would not permit him to provide the employment and the amenities of these hospitals at a time when it was urgently necessary to do so. I think that is a very poor alibi. The event has demonstrated clearly that funds were abundantly available for this work. Now, on the eve of the general election, he announces with a flourish that he intends to put it into operation; but those who might have contributed materially to it form part of the 200,000 who were forced into emigration.

Those who have had to do without the hospital accommodation which they might have had for the benefit of their health, and possibly for the saving of life, have had to do without it simply because the Minister misjudged the situation. There is nothing we can do about that now because these precious years have been lost and these precious people have been lost. But it is right that we should note it and register an emphatic protest against what I believe was the base political gimmick which inspired the Minister to withhold the funds necessary to complete this useful work and to provide this necessary employment for the thousands of skilled and unskilled workers who have had to go to Birmingham, London and Glasgow to build houses and hospitals for the British people when they could have been very much better employed here at home building them for their own.

There are some other matters in regard to this Vote I should like to raise. I want to refer to the voluntary organisations for the rehabilitation of patients who have suffered protracted illness and who find some difficulty in resuming normal employment, owing either to the disability left after their acute illness has been cured or to the protracted nature of the illness which has left them out of touch with their ordinary channels of employment.

Voluntary work of this kind often produces the best results, to judge by the results that have been obtained by the National Rehabilitation Association. The voluntary workers in that body are getting very remarkable results. It is true that where you have a successful voluntary organisation, there is a great deal to be said for letting them rely on their own resources and enjoy the absolute autonomy that independence confers upon them. But there is a danger that, when they reach a certain point in their work, the mere shortage of money to provide certain important equipment makes it impossible for them to carry on, or at least makes it necessary for them indefinitely to postpone activities in which they might efficiently engage.

I had similar problems in another sphere when I was Minister for Agriculture and I eventually persuaded the Government to the view that it was legitimate in certain circumstances to provide a voluntary organisation of that kind with funds for specific purposes, on the clear understanding that that would involve no claim on the part of the Government to control their activities. I do not think one can do that generally, because it is a sound general principle that if public funds are involved, there must be supervision of their expenditure; and that is not a principle from which we should readily depart. But I feel where a voluntary body is doing excellent work it is not unreasonable to suggest that, if funds are required to finance their current activities and they are restricted in the scope of their activities by the want of accommodation or equipment, the Government might in those circumstances offer the capital cost of buildings and equipment so that the voluntary body can carry on its work.

We have accepted the principle that where religious Orders are prepared to undertake the care of the sick, the mentally retarded or the old, we will provide the buildings and equipment they want to carry on their work. I would suggest to the Minister that we should favourably consider the present financial stringency of the National Rehabilitation Association, which they themselves are seeking to relieve by a national campaign for funds. I believe these funds are mainly required for buildings and equipment; and if it appears that, without any unreasonable departure from normal practice, some financial assistance could be provided, the Minister should favourably consider asking the Government's authority to make such provision.

I want to make it quite clear I am in no way authorised to speak for the National Rehabilitation Organisation. So far as I am aware, they are cheerfully going about the business of collecting all the money they require by a campaign to raise funds. I think they aim to raise £250,000. I hope they will get a large part, if not the whole, of that and I would be glad to do anything to help them towards that end. It seems a very formidable burden and it seems a pity that their work should be postponed until the money is available if it were in our power to give them any assurance that they could go forward now in the knowledge that, if their drive for funds falls short of their target, they might confidently look for sympathetic consideration from the Minister for Health in helping them to meet any deficit in which the expansion of their accommodation and equipment might involve them.

I want to mention another matter now, and that is the care of old people. I notice in the Minister's opening statement that he says that he is now committed to an extensive programme of repair and reconstruction of county homes. God knows, the county homes are not very luxurious establishments. I want to renew the suggestion I have made on more than one occasion when discussing the Vote for the Department of Health that we ought to reconsider our whole approach to the problem and care of the old. There are old people living in the city of Dublin and, if they require institutional treatment it is all right, I suppose, that they should be gathered into one centre, because access to that centre from any part of the city of Dublin is readily available to their relatives at low cost and the possibility of the old people seeing familiar faces from time to time is not reduced substantially by their occupancy of institutions.

I should like to ask Deputies to consider the circumstances of old people living in rural Ireland. One of the great tragedies of old age in rural Ireland is the loneliness and the feeling of not being wanted any more. We all know that the great majority of old people spend their declining years in the homes of their children. They are a familiar part of the family circle and, even though there may sometimes be a little friction and upset, that all constitutes part of the natural family life, and the old people feel that they belong somewhere. The great tragedy is the old people whose children have emigrated, or who are the last survivors of the families they brought into the world, and who find themselves living alone in a room on the old age pension till the day comes ultimately when it is no longer safe for them to be alone. They meet with little accidents. Perhaps they get burned at the fire or spill a kettle of hot water on themselves and are ultimately prevailed upon to go to the county home. I have known such cases.

I have often been rebuked for trying to enable some of my old neighbours to hang on to their inadequate rooms which they inhabit in their home town. It was suggested to me that I was obscurantist in trying to make it possible for them to stay on when they were in grave peril to themselves. Maybe I was, but I have always felt that, so long as it is humanly possible for them to live amongst their neighbours and have their own little independence, however humble, that is infinitely preferable to the best of institutional care in the county home 30 miles away from their neighbours, with not a familiar face to be seen, and where they are simply waiting to die, and waiting to die amongst strangers. That is a pressing evil for us all and I doubt if there is a single Deputy in this House who does not share my solicitude for that dilemma.

The county homes are there. These old people are silent. Unfortunately it is also true that, sometimes in rural Ireland, there are those who are anxious to get old people removed to an institution where they no longer constitute a responsibility upon their relatives. Bearing all these things in mind, I want to remind the House that those who went before us in past ages had a very much better solution for this problem that was as real centuries ago as it is today. Their solution for that problem was the establishment of what used to be called charities, of which we have some examples in the country towns of Ireland today. I think there is one such charity in Mitchelstown, for instance, which takes the shape of a group of houses in which old people can be accommodated. Some of these old charities have associated with the tenancies of these houses a modest stipend as well. I think there are several in the city of Waterford.

The great merit in that system is that where the old people find themselves either alone or in very straitened circumstances they can be looked after in circumstances which make it possible for them to see a familiar face, to meet their neighbours and, above all, to "belong". They can go on going to the chapel every evening, as they have gone all their lives, to say their prayers; the little walk up and down brings them in contact with neighbours with whom they can pass the time of day and, from time to time, neighbours will drop in on them to have a cup of tea or bring them a little present, and life continues. They are not doomed to incarceration in an institution, waiting death.

I do not want to reflect on the institution. I remember asking a very distinguished woman, the Reverend Mother of one of them, how could she possibly have spent so many years in the service of these derelict old people who are very often most unrewarding patients because they are lonely and unhappy and consequently prone to complain. And who will blame them? She looked at me and said, "If I did not see the likeness of the Lord in their faces I would not have lasted a month." Those words have stuck in my mind ever since she uttered them close on 30 years ago.

The condition of the old county homes has been very materially improved since that time but, it does not matter how much you improve them ; to take old persons from their familiar surroundings and accommodate them 20 or 30 miles away in an institution and cut them off from everything that makes life worth living for them seems to me to be wholly wrong. Could not we, instead of spending vast capital sums on the county homes, appropriate some of this money to building small groups of houses for the accommodation of the poor and aged in their own parish, albeit that that would involve the employment of a matron or an almoner to exercise general supervision over such a group of patients and to be the friend and helper of old people who wanted some assistance in maintaining their domestic establishment ? I do not think that is an impossible thing. Lots of these old people are active and brisk if only they have some useful work brought within their reach that they are able to do. You would often find amongst the old people who inhabit charities of that kind, of a group of 12 or 14 houses, one of the old ladies very willing and anxious to act in the capacity of almoner to the rest. In fact, you would find that a great many of them would help one another and a kind of community life could be built up which, with the assistance of neighbours, would function very well.

I put it to Deputies from rural Ireland, if some of their old neighbours became unable to look after themselves without some help and they had the alternative of accommodating them in their own parish amongst their neighbours or of sending for the ambulance and carting them to the county home 20 or 30 miles away, which would they prefer ? Would they not infinitely prefer to see them accommodated at home amongst their own people ? If we are all agreed that that is a good thing to do, why do we not try? Those who went before us tried and the charities they established 300 and 400 years ago are still operating. There is no greater testimony to the efficacy of their plan than the fact that it has endured down through the centuries and is still operating. It was during the period of the deplorable Poor Law mentality of the middle of the 19th Century that this whole concept of workhouses emerged. One hundred and fifty years ago there was no workhouse in this country. Workhouses were the fruits of the famine and the evictions. Why should we feel ourselves chained to that system ?

It is the cheapest.

The Deputy is inclined to take a very cynical view of everybody's attitude. I do not believe Deputies in this House really care to count the cost for their own neighbours. I think the Deputy, who has very many virtues, does himself a disservice in assuming that all his colleagues in this House are kind of savages. I have the lowest opinion of many members of the Fianna Fáil Party but I do not think I would appeal to any of them in vain in this cause. I believe they understand this situation as well as I do and that they are as sympathetic as I am.

They have been there for 40 years now.

They have. I am trying to find a reason for it and I think the reason is that it is very easy to accept the established state of things, forgetting how that state of things came about and believing that there is no alternative. I am trying slowly to educate them—and mind you, I have educated them very successfully in a number of other things—to a realisation of the fact that we had our own system before the Poor Law was instituted. That was not something unique to Ireland. Great Britain had their own system and it was a good system and probably we acquired that system of the parochial charity from the English during their occupation here. Of course, the fact is that that went back to the old monastic tradition that the monastaries accepted responsibility for charitable works of this kind and wealthy persons either endowed monasteries or set up analogous charities, which these old charities designed for the care of the poor and destitute largely were.

Without going into all that long social history of the country, I am only putting to the Minister that we ought to try it out and not irrevocably commit ourselves to the spending of millions on the rehabilitation of all the workhouses in the country because, if we do, even though we call the rose by another name and, instead of calling it the workhouse, call it the county home, even though it is perfectly true and we should not attempt to deny it, that the atmosphere of the county home today is very far different from the atmosphere that used to obtain in the old workhouse, fundamentally many of our neighbours whose age and weakness requires them to have some special care, who are carted away 20 to 30 miles from their home are suffering and they are suffering at a time when we ought to be concerned that they do not suffer.

They have enough burden to carry with all the aches and pains and weariness of old age. We, at least, ought to be able to keep them at home. Does Deputy MacCarthy not agree with me? I think he does. I would suggest energetically to the Minister that he should at least experiment along these lines. What I am terrified of is that if we embark on a huge programme of capital expenditure on workhouses, we will have them hung around our neck for another two or three generations, whereas if we could at least experiment along the lines I am suggesting it would very rapidly become clear to everybody that the parochial solution of this problem is infinitely preferable and it was by no means impossible of realisation or operation.

There is a third matter to which I want to refer, and that is, the blue card. The blue card is becoming a sort of perennial persecution to us all. I was in the public life of this country for years when the old system obtained that the person who wanted a red ticket went to the local public representative or warden. In all my years as a member of this House while that system operated I never got a letter for a red ticket. My experience was that anybody living in the area that I live in who required a red ticket got it.

I never had a letter from a constituent in County Monaghan complaining that he had been denied a red ticket. Anyone in need of medical care who was not able to get the ticket called to his neighbour—who was either a county councillor or a warden, or one of a limited number of persons who were appointed wardens ad hoc for the purpose of issuing red tickets—and got them. Now, we have substituted this system whereby the county manager is responsible for issuing blue cards. It does not matter how zealous or industrious the county manager is, he cannot have any intimate knowledge of the circumstances of individuals living 15 to 30 miles away from his office. He refers the case to the local relieving officer or home assistance officer who inquires about it. If somebody kicks up a row I imagine the case is referred by the county manager to the superintendent home assistance officer for reinvestigation and after that procedure sometimes they get the blue card and sometimes they do not.

I think the system has broken down completely. I do not mean that I am, by any means, suggesting that the vast majority of people who ought to have blue cards have not got them. I think the vast majority of people entitled to blue cards have got them but the trouble is that a very considerable number of people are suffering under a deep sense of grievance that they should have access to these medical services and should not be denied them when they know full well that under the old red ticket system the services would have been available to them.

I always have the frustrating experience when I take up one of these cases for blue cards that the machinery for investigation is most unsatisfactory and unsympathetic. Everything is made to fit people into watertight categories and, if they can be fitted into that category, they get a blue card and if not, they do not get it. I am sure every Deputy has had much the same experience as I have had, that there is a perennial war going on to get blue cards and people who do not get them are faced with expense with which they are not able to grapple. I think it is a most unsatisfactory situation.

I suggest some review should be made of the blue card system ; let us find out for what categories of our community we can make provision and let us make provision for them. Let us scrap this effort to segregate them into rich and poor, denying people, who in my opinion ought to have access to full health services, the benefits which they are at present being denied.

I could embroider that ad infinitum but I believe most Deputies know from their own experience what I am talking about, that the blue card system appears to have broken down and it is not good enough simply to coast along and leave a bitter sense of grievance in the minds of many people which, I do not believe we can conscientiously say, is unfounded. I believe it is largely an administrative problem but it has reached such dimensions that I think effective measures should be taken to put an end to it. I do not believe it is impossible to devise such a measure and I hope that if this Minister is not prepared to do so a successor will be found after our Autumn altercations in the country who will be able to provide the solution.

A Deputy

The Deputy is an optimist.

Optimism is the breath of life ; if I had not been optimistic for a long time in the public life of this country I should have cut my throat long ago. The Deputy should not forget that I lived through 20 years of his administration and what kept me alive was my belief that one fine day we might get rid of Fianna Fáil for the benefit of the country and we did and, please God, we shall again.

There is one final matter that I want to urge on the Minister, and that is the choice of doctor. I believe that we could vastly improve the health service we are providing if, at least in the metropolitan and larger urban areas, we could substitute for the existing dispensary system the right of patients to choose their own doctors. In rural Ireland the plain fact is that in certain parts of the country it would be completely illusory to offer patients free choice of doctor because very often there is only one doctor available. Frequently, it is difficult enough to get him to stay there by paying him the dispensary salary.

Ideally, I think it would be a good thing generally to provide that everybody would be free to choose their own physician. It is only when you stop to think of these matters in relation to yourself that you realise how minimal such a right should be. I should not like the Minister for Health or anybody to tell me what doctor I am to go to. I cannot imagine any more distressing circumstance than to have to consult a physician I did not like or with whom, conceivably, I had quarrelled. Mark you, rural dispensary doctors do quarrel with neighbours just the same as anybody else and, of course, neighbours quarrel with them.

Therefore, I say the ideal would be that everybody should have free choice of his own doctor but I am prepared to say that, as a first stage, what we should try to do is to avoid the existing major problem of the overworked dispensary doctor in the large metropolitan areas and to substitute for that a system whereunder every family could choose their own physician and this physician could be recouped with a suitable capitation fee instead of the dispensary salary which he at present receives. That might involve some additional expense but I believe that sooner or later it is an inevitable development and once a thing becomes obviously inevitable and once it appears to us that it is desirable in principle then I think we should take our courage in our hands and do it.

If I were concerned simply to advocate impracticable reforms, I would clamour now for the abolition of the dispensary system all through the country and a free choice of doctor for all forthwith. I prefer the gradual approach in matters of this kind. I am always conscious of the fact that we may be wrong in our belief. Therefore, I prefer the experimental approach and I should like to see this tried out in those areas where it seems to be most urgently necessary now. If it works out there, then we can extend it gradually to all areas in God's good time. I believe there is an urgent problem in the metropolitan areas and even in the large urban areas. I am quite prepared to say that if circumstances permit this reform to be brought about in the metropolitan areas only for the present, let us start there and see how we get on. I think our experience will lead us to extend it further and further afield as circumstances permit, but at least we will feel we are moving, and moving in the right direction.

I do not want to conclude without exhorting the Minister once again that there is no use in saying that someone else started the quarrel. It really does not matter a hoot who started the quarrel. The one obvious and manifest fact is that it is an undesirable thing in this or in any other community that the Minister for Health for the time being is not talking to the medical profession. It is an undeniable fact that there is no Minister of State who has not difficulties with organisations and interests concerned in the Department of which he is the political head.

I am certain that the Minister for Education is frequently exasperated with the I.N.T.O., the Secondary School Teachers' Association and even with the clerical managers. I am sure there are many occasions on which he wishes to tell one of them to get to hell out of his office—but he does not. He manages to carry on. I can certify that frequently as Minister for Agriculture I met various agricultural and quasi-agricultural organisations whom I longed to tell to get to blazes out of my office—but I did not. When the more acrimonious of them came to me, I met them, talked to them and heard their views. If we differed, we differed. What I tried to find was some small fraction of our area of difference where we could agree.

That system works well. We were often in a situation where they were breathing fire on the Minister for Agriculture. The Minister for Education, if he is in the position that an organisation is breathing fire on him, decides to sit down, send for them and say : "Listen, breathe all the fire you want, but let us find if there is some small segment of our mutual problems on which we could find agreement." I believe that in any discussions it is the Minister's job to keep trying to find some area of agreement and understanding so that relations can be improved.

If it is an admitted fact, as I suggest it is, that it is grotesque that the Irish Minister for Health is not talking to the official association representative of the medical profession, if we are all agreed that such a situation is ludicrous, surely the responsibility is on the Minister to take the appropriate initiative to put an end to it. I ask him to do that. No one wants him to produce a miracle and be able to announce that in respect of all matters he has arrived at complete understanding with the Irish Medical Association. I have no doubt that he will not. What I want is an assurance that they are talking.

I could draw many analogies to portray the present situation but I shall spare the Minister's feelings. I hope that by paying that modest tribute to his well-known quality, which frank friends sometimes describe as vanity, I shall be able to persuade him to display in this matter the statesmanlike humility which will put an end to the present deplorable situation in which he is the only Minister of State in this country who will not speak to vocational interests with whose welfare he is primarily charged.

If this kind of thing went on, he might retire into an ivory tower and talk to no one but himself, and frank friends would perhaps suggest that would be for the general welfare. I am prepared to say, however, that anyone who functions as Minister for Health ought to be free to do his work. I think the Minister is working himself into a situation in which he is not able to do the work he is charged to do, and that largely by his own fault. It is time he changed and realised that there are more important things in this life than self-esteem. Anyone who has been afforded the dignity of the office of Tánaiste ought to be content, and be reassured that a search for reconciliation will not be misconstrued as self-abasement. All his colleagues would be capable of making that effort —or I should hope they were—and it is time he tried.

At the end of a Parliamentary session, it is very difficult for me, at any rate, to decide whether there is any purpose in seriously discussing any Estimate in so far as the Minister is coming to the end of his period of office, and is unlikely, even if he had the power at the time, or were in a position to do so to carry out the suggestions one would like to make in regard to his Department. That reluctance to intervene in this debate is reinforced in the case of this Estimate by reference to the many speeches and interventions on matters of health other Deputies have made over the years and particularly over the years of office of this Government. We should recognise that we are beating the air in making virtually all the suggestions that have been made—certainly by myself—over the years.

We have heard of speaking to the converted. It is quite clear from our experience of the past five years that so far as the Minister is concerned, one is speaking to the unconvertible. However, in spite of the frustrating experience of drawing attention to the grave neglect of the many serious tasks facing the Department of Health by the Minister over the years, lest his successor may take his assessment of achievements as valid and accept our silence as acquiescence we should make some comment on the Estimate before us.

As Deputy O'Higgins suggested, this is the Estimate on which we must have the right to consider the activities of the Department since the Minister took over. What is the position ? To me, it shows a depressing record of inertia, stagnation, complacency and dithering indecision on the major issues with which the Minister has been faced since taking office. With his typical cash register mind approach to this terrible human problem of sickness, pain and disease, his proudest boast appears to be that the expenditure on the health service tends to increase. How little he appreciates his true responsibility, surrounded as he is by so much avoidable illness, preventable pain and curable disease and placed in the position he was when taking office of having—I think it is true to say—the finest prerequisites to the establishment of a first-class health service. The finest collection of hospitals and institutions of every kind were available to him and to serve those hospitals he has the best nurses that anybody could find anywhere in the world. Generally speaking, he has also first-class technically qualified members of the medical profession.

It is good to see that at last he has ceased his perennial moan about the position of the Hospitals Sweep Funds and that he now finds it is possible to carry on with the continued planning in respect of some of the hospital projects. What the Minister seems to overlook is that the provision of money for the building of hospitals by means of sweepstakes is a completely exceptional situation. It is a very welcome fact that the money is available from these sweepstakes. That is very welcome and desirable but it is accepted in most societies that the provision of hospitals by a community for a community's ill, sick and disabled is the responsibility of that community even if there were no sweepstake funds and even if there was no horseracing. Even if there were none of these things, it is the responsibility of the community to care for its sick. That would appear to be one of the simplest tenets of Christian teaching.

One should not depend upon the success or failure of a lottery to decide whether you will house the sick or provide them with the proper equipment. The care of the sick and the aged should not depend on the success of gambling operations. That they can go ahead with the provision of Elm Park or the Coombe Maternity Hospital and that that should be contingent upon the increased income into the hospital sweeps is an interesting mirror to the mind of a Minister who has this purely, coldly materialistic attitude to the parents.

If a new maternity hospital were needed and if there were no sweepstake funds available, then there is the Minister for Finance, taxation and community funds. It is quite clear from listening to the Minister's Estimate speech—the Minister for Health has tremendous power and authority—that he has faced it in one of two ways. When one is in a position of great power, one can use it either to make decisions to get things done or the power can also be used in another interesting way and that is to refrain from doing things. That clearly is the perverted attitude of the Minister to his position of great authority. It is to refuse to take decisions and to continue to maintain a position of indecisive inconclusiveness in relation to the serious decisions of his Department.

We read of fiddling marginal changes made in the installation of electrical equipment, the provision of a cobalt unit, the installation of water supplies, the decoration of buildings and so on but the really great decision must still be taken. With regard to many aspects of the Department's functions, great decisions still remain to be decided. The Minister's whole behaviour has been that of a timid, obessive do-little refusing to take any decisions on the really serious issues.

His Estimate speech is a litany of unfinished projects, commissions to be established, inquiries to be made, facts to be found, decisions to be taken, planning to be continued but no hard decisions in relation to these great projects, are, in fact, taken. There are the county homes which are still pitiful and still awaiting progressive action. He is still waiting to decide how he is going to get the local authorities to do something about the disgraceful conditions in many of them. He is cutting one aspect of the dental service in order to begin to make developments in relation to another. There is little or no real progress in relation to the terribly serious problem of what we are going to do with the mentally-retarded children. The nurses have been told that they must wait until things are better for them.

Then the Minister talks about what he considers to be radical medical thought—the idea of the merits of the medical panel system but of all the most outmoded Victoriana the panel system must be counted as one of the most exclusively out-of-date. Surely the Minister's mind is not fossilised and mummified in the 1916-22 era, the Golden Era, his moment of greatness. He should begin to understand it is 40 years on and that this is 1961. Radical changes are needed in his thinking if he is to continue to be a Minister for Health in a modern economy. One of the saddest things for any of us associated with the Department, a person like myself anyhow, who was associated with it at one time, is to see the result of Ministerial policy and to see that the old descriptive phrase, "with the Department", is now understood to mean that the project is in cold storage, that the idea is in a pigeonhole. The Department has once again become the administrative St. Michael of Government Departments where no decision will be taken—everything considered, but no decisions taken— as a direct result of the Minister's personal intervention in all these issues.

The Minister gave us his figures in relation to tuberculosis. They are welcome but I suspect that the rate of reduction could be improved. A case could be made for reconsidering the whole system of case finding in relation to tuberculosis. If I might express a personal view, as a physician, I was never very convinced of the benefits of the idea of mass radiography but I did not allow that personal view to influence me. I still think it has a place in the case finding of tuberculosis but I wonder is it as important or as effective as it is alleged to be? I suspect that many of the people sent to hospital as a result of mass radiography are people who have quiescent lesions but one of the difficulties is to establish that. It usually takes anything up to three months out of the active working life of the people concerned to establish it. It is unfair that they have to be referred to hospital before one can eliminate activity. It is wrong because of the great fear involved for the individual and the stigma, which of course is much less now than it used be, of being in a sanatorium and the great upset in the domestic life of the individual, in addition to the uncertainty in his mind. Eventually in so many cases it is found that the person had not got active tuberculosis at all and that the investigations were unnecessary and time-wasting.

The Department might consider whether any steps could be taken to try to eliminate that weakness in the mass radiography system and the system whereby the general practitioners in this case finding system are inclined to refer to hospitals patients who suffer from a number of clinical conditions associated with tuberculosis. The Department are aware of the work done by Doctor Pritchard many years ago in which the case finding record in London County Council was very much higher through their particular process than that found in the mass radiography system, the reason of course being that they were investigating a much more likely type of case than those investigated by the mass radiography group. The case found by mass radiography is usually symptomless and in my experience is to a very high degree a quiescent case and consequently should not be brought into the ambit of the service at all.

I appreciate it is a difficult problem but it is one that should be seriously considered by the Department to see if there is any way of remedying the defect of sending people to sanatoria who have nothing wrong with them and to see if they could organise public health clinics so that these people would not be sent away from their work to sanatoria until it had been decided that they were active cases of tuberculosis.

I am glad to see, although the Minister makes very little reference to it, that a certain militancy is appearing in the nurses' organisation. One of the most frustrating experiences of my life has been what you could call a love-hate association with the nursing profession in so far as I have always had a tremendous regard for the profession, like most people who have been ill over a long period and who owe a debt of gratitude to them, and a great sympathy for the great work they do. That frustration has arisen from my observation of the appalling obsequious subservience which they show to the wishes of the medical profession and their lack of independence.

When I say their lack of independence, it would be fairer to attribute it to the leadership of the nursing profession. So far as the average working nurse is concerned, she takes little or no practical interest in nursing politics. I think they are putting themselves at a grave disadvantage but then in some ways it is a measure of their objective self-sacrifice, that they are not self-seeking and have never really pursued their own interests as single-mindedly as they might have done. The result is, I think, that they have been harshly treated. They have long hours and in many cases they have very bad working conditions. These have improved very much with the improvement in hospital buildings. Their salaries are not commensurate with the hours they work and the responsibilities which they have. I do not know whether they have changed very much since I was a student or a doctor in general hospital practice but the conditions under which they are trained, the near remand-home atmosphere, the appalling autocracy of the average matron, the very stringent discipline—all these conditions belong to another age altogether. They should be changed and in my view should long ago have been changed.

If we can rely on the speeches and promises of the various Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries that we are going into a period of great prosperity, greater employment, and so on, then we shall find here what they have found in Great Britain, that many of the girls who now go into nursing will no longer do so. Many girls go into nursing because of a purely vocational attitude, to serve the sick and the public generally but many others do so because they have no alternative training, because this is training which gives them a wonderful prospect in life in some ways and gives them access to work in other countries under different conditions. In Great Britain and America it was found that where girls got training in other branches of office work, commerce or industry it became more and more difficult to get girls to go into nursing. It is a very demanding profession. It is semi-religious in many ways, in the supervision and in the conditions of work. It appeals less and less to girls as alternative opportunities for employment occur in offices, businesses, industry, and so on.

It would be a good thing if the Minister would try to anticipate that development here and not wait until we find ourselves with a grave shortage as they have in Great Britain and for which many unsatisfactory makeshifts were devised. We should try to improve the standard and conditions of work, living conditions and above all the opportunities for promotion to the talented girls in our hospitals, see that any girl who is sufficiently well qualified, sufficiently able, can be promoted to any nursing or administrative post in a hospital. It is these narrowed opportunities of advancement in our hospitals which drive many of the more ambitious girls out of the country.

I hope the new militancy which is evident will be a permanent one among nurses, and that they will be able to improve their conditions. The record of their leadership in the past is disgraceful. In my own experience I remember their failure to accept the challenge in relation to the opportunity of getting access or being given access to the higher posts in all the hospitals which I tried to give them over ten years ago. I used to notice the most remarkable exhibition of obsequious subservience to medical opinion in the discussions of the National Health Council. Invariably the nursing representatives sided with the members of the profession, in most cases against the interests of their own members. However, in their struggle for better conditions into which I hope they have now entered seriously, I am certain that this group more than any other group will have widespread sympathy.

As to the conflict with the Medical Association there is a certain absurdity about it but it seems to me to represent part of the Minister's makeup that he should want to appear to be engaged in a major conflict with this association, a Walter Mitty character who wants to create the impression of tiny David standing up to the almighty Goliath. Of course this is not true. He himself has shown that, in regard to this relatively unimportant issue, Goliath is not able to prevent getting the very highly qualified men for the posts available. The Minister wants to create the myth in the public mind that he is fighting a great battle for the public against the depredations of the Medical Association. Goodness knows, they are responsible for many depredations and many defects in our health services. If he wants really to fight on behalf of the public, if he wants to defend the public interest against the vested interests of the Medical Association there are first-class issues he can take up.

There are real issues against which it would be worth the Minister's while to fight and for which to pledge the resources of his Department. Fight them on the issue of a free, no means test health service. Fight them on the issue of giving free choice of doctor to the lower income group. Fight them on the issue of providing a salaried service. Fight them on the issue of establishing a group practice. Fight them on the issue of the nepotism and jobbery of hospital appointments. These are worthwhile issues which concern the public and which influence the way in which the public are served in our hospitals and by our medical service.

The Minister, in his conflict with the Medical Association, is indulging in what the military strategists call sand-table tactics, playing with soldiers, playing at offences, retreats and defence strategies. In fact there is no battle going on at all. The people are sick and tired of it and completely uninterested in the outcome. The Minister should have no illusions about that. As he said, the posts are being filled by very highly qualified people and everybody knows he is only shadow boxing.

To whom was that due? It was not due to any help got from the Deputy.

Deputy Dillon spoke about the old people. Again we have a manyana, a long-finger reference by the Minister to the care of the aged in a county home. Of course, from a man who, in his capacity as Minister for Social Welfare is paying old people 27/6d. a week on which to live, it is quite clear he is not going to do anything substantial to alleviate the conditions of these people in our county homes. His references to the county homes are yet more pious platitudes, and should be recognised as such. As long ago as 1951 an inter-Departmental Committee was established and it made many disturbing findings. As a result of these findings certain recommendations were made and accepted by the Government of which I was a member at the time concerning the fixing of loan charges and so on, facilitating local authorities to deal with improvements in county homes. That is ten years ago. Deputy Dillon appears to defend the situation and suggests that people are not aware of it. We were aware of it in 1951 as a result of that inter-Departmental Committee, and we made a decision at that time. The net result is the Minister's continued dithering with the problem.

I am not certain whether Deputy Dillon's solution of the parochial treatment of these old people is the best one. It is a very complicated problem. At the same time our position is that 40 years after taking over the State we have developed neither the parochial solution to the problem nor have we developed the county home solution. There are areas, a few sparse areas, in which there are enlightened county managers and in which some advancement and improvement is being made; but, by and large, the conditions under which the old people live in these county homes are conditions of which we should be highly ashamed. They are conditions under which we would not like our own parents to live. They are conditions under which the present Minister would not like to spend his declining years, and I would not ask him to do so. I do not think any members of our society should be asked to live in these conditions.

Ten years have already elapsed.

How long more are we going to wait before we deal with this problem ? Ten years in the lives of persons of 60 or 70 are in most cases the ten final years of their lives. This is an urgent problem. When one visits countries like Sweden, which we all claim so godless and so unchristian to find there the simply wonderful conditions under which old people are treated, it emphasises the complete mockery of the Christian ethic which we make here in our daily lives. If there is any Christianity in the world, it is to be found in these Scandinavian countries like Sweden and Denmark. If there is any anti-Christianity in the world, if there is such a thing, I believe it is to be found here in Ireland in our county homes, in our dispensaries, in many of our schools and elsewhere. The conditions under which we treat our fellowmen are the only conditions by which I judge, and by which I think any rational person would judge, the bona fides of a person's assertion of their Christianity.

The Minister talks of this question of the county homes as if it were a new problem, as if he were a neophyte in the Department. He has been in office since 1932 in one way or another—the best part of 30 years. Yet he still comes into this House and gives this summary of his last five years' work as if it were his first five years, as if indeed it were his first year and that he were still feeling his way and probing out the best solution for the serious problems of his Department. It is not the first time the Minister found himself in the Department of Health. It is about time he was prepared to start making some decisions.

The facts of the matter at the moment are these, as far as my information goes. As soon as these old people become in any way senile, perhaps, weak-minded, querulous or cantankerous, they have the choice of either going into the cheerless, cold, bleak, institution-like atmosphere of the county homes, on the one hand, or a mental hospital, on the other. Apparently many of them are finding their way into our mental hospitals because of the slight level of mental deterioration brought on by old age. To my mind, that is a shocking indictment of those responsible.

I felt slightly disappointed and discouraged recently to get a circular from an Order for which I have the highest regard. I think if there is any apotheosis of Christian work to be found in our society, it is in the work of people like, particularly, the Brothers of St. John of God. But I was disappointed—probably irrationally; I do not know—to see a circular from them saying they were establishing a home in Dublin for aged people. There was a wonderful programme of what they intended to do to rehabilitate them, re-educate them and re-equip them for life after illness. There was the appointment of a medical director, a geriatric specialist and so on—everything one could ask for the care of the aged in beautiful conditions and lovely surroundings.

These facilities were all available to old people on payment of £9 9s. a week. I suppose there must be some explanation of it from their point of view. I do not wish to appear to be critical because I have a very high regard for them. But it seems to me that this Order, with its world-wide record in the care of sick and disabled people, should not be placed in the position of having to place that barrier between the disabled and the aged and the wonderful amenities and facilities which they appear to be able to provide for them in this new institution. I think they should be facilitated in providing these and similar institutions and with the proviso that they are available for those who need them, and without a means test of £400 to £500 a year— £9 per week.

I am sorry the Minister made no reference at all to a matter that has been debated here on a number of occasions. I refer to the question of the cost of drugs where the middle income group is concerned. I do not think anybody here will deny the fact that the cost of drugs is very high. Even those who are concerned in the pharmaceutical side of the drug business, while they may have explanations in relation to the cost of drugs, cannot controvert the statement that the cost is very high. In the case of the dispensary patient, the patient probably gets as much as he should for the 4/- that we are told is the figure but, if that figure is correct, he cannot be getting the antibiotics he should be getting. However, leaving the dispensary patient aside for the moment, it is true to say that the patient in the middle income group finds himself in a particularly difficult situation.

As I have said before medicine has passed from the witch doctor stage and is now moving into the Golden Age of Medicine. Tremendous advances have been made on the therapeutic side. Really wonderful things can be done with antibiotics now for sick people, but these antibiotics are very expensive. They have replaced the old placebos in the blue bottles which, whether the patient got them or whether he did not, made no difference anyway. Where the antibiotics are concerned, the white collar worker is not getting fair treatment. He and his family are by-passed in this antibiotic age. He gets no benefits from these miracle drugs because he cannot afford to pay for them. The doctor whose patient he is cannot prescribe these drugs because he knows the price of them would bankrupt the patient. The doctor is placed in the wholly undesirable and unethical dilemma of having to prescribe less effective drugs in order to save the patient's pocket. I do not think any doctor should have to face such a decision and, more important still, I do not think the patient should be denied these drugs because he cannot afford to pay for them.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, whose responsibility this matter really is, has said that the cost of drugs here is no higher than in Great Britain. Let us accept that. It is, of course, irrelevant from the point of view of the patient, and it is here the responsibility of the Minister for Health enters in. If the Minister for Industry and Commerce does not know, then the Minister for Health must know that there is in Britain a national health service, and that, under that service, drugs are provided virtually free because they are to a considerable extent subsidised. It is completely irrelevant to talk about an analogy, for none exists. It is contemptible to draw a comparison between British prices and our prices. We are not interested in these actuarial gymnastics in relation to national finance. Our interest lies, or should lie, with our sick who cannot get these drugs because they cannot afford them. In my view they will be able to afford them only when the Minister is prepared to introduce some kind of subsidy. If he will not give us the national health service we want, the service we believe we should have, he should at least provide some sort of assistance for the provision of these drugs to the middle income group so that they may have the benefit of these drugs.

The dental service—or rather, lack of it—is another scandal. This is yet another of the neglected aspects of the Minister's responsibility. He comes in here with the appalling information that he will sacrifice the dental welfare of adults in order to concentrate on the children. Why should there be this Hobson's choice ? Why should there be penalisation of any section of the community ? What is there a shortage of ?

There is plenty of equipment ?

Dentists—that is what there is a shortage of.

There is plenty of equipment. There are plenty of hospitals. There are plenty of dentists, if the Minister is prepared to pay them. Throughout his speech on the Estimate, as there is throughout every speech he makes in his public life, there was the usual whinge and whine : "We cannot afford to pay." That is the whinge and the whine whether it is our nurses or our dentists. We cannot afford to give better health services. We cannot afford this. We cannot afford that. That is the whinge and the whine in what we are told by every Minister on the Government Front Bench is an expanding economy, a prosperous society.

I have never heard or read of the Government of any prosperous society so chronically hard-up as this Government. Whether you want to give more money to the old, whether you want to give more money to the Minister for Education, whether you want to give better salaries to the dentists, whether you want to provide more facilities for retarded children, whether you want to provide better dispensary buildings, whether you want to pay for a better general medical service, the plea invariably is that it would bankrupt the country. The prosperity is obviously as mythical as the achievements of the Government over the years. Plenty of our graduates would be glad to stay here if they got the same remuneration as they get in Britain. They are leaving in their hundreds as they graduate. They are not leaving from choice. They are leaving because of the better conditions in Britain.

The Minister referred to the significant increase in lung cancer. It is a frightening figure. He gave us two lines —it could not be called a homily— on the dangers of cigarette smoking. That appears to be his total contribution to discharging his responsibility to the public to warn them of the grave danger associated with cigarette smoking. For years he has been urged to take some action. He evaded it, as he evades everything else, as long as he could, on the basis that no relationship had been established to the satisfaction of the medical profession. At last the relationship is unquestionable. Yet, the Minister makes no attempt at all to go out and explain continuously and repeatedly to the public the grave dangers of cigarette smoking, the dangerous poison which cigarette smoke is, the dangerous habit which cigarette smoking is. Not only does he make no serious attempt to deal with that problem but he allows, on the other side, the cigarette manufacturing companies to step up their propaganda in favour of cigarette smoking. In the newspapers, there is a daily appearance of great quarter-page or half-page advertisements. On the radio, people are encouraged to smoke cigarettes. Shops, pubs, hoardings, are plastered with advertisements encouraging people to smoke. No doubt, when we have our own television service we will have a further stepping up of this blatant propaganda for cigarette smoking.

The manufacturers know quite well that you will not have any appreciable effect on the public's habits by making a two line reference to the advantages of cigarette smoking. They know quite well that vast sums of money must be spent in order to corrupt public thinking into believing that cigarette smoking is good, painless, harmless and great fun.

It is an obscene betrayal by the Minister of his responsibilities that he refuses to place the dangers squarely before the public, even if he refuses to suppress the cigarette manufacturers' propaganda. It is a betrayal of his responsibility that he does not draw the attention of the public repeatedly and continuously to the terrible danger associated with cigarette smoking, its relationship to lung cancer and all the appalling pain and suffering which is associated with this horrible disease.

Cancer will continue to happen no matter whether we smoke or not but it has been clearly proved that it will happen more frequently among heavy smokers. The Minister should learn from this advertising how efficient it can be even, in such a poor cause and if he wants to, he could learn how efficient such propaganda can be in a good cause, that if he really wants to win success for his poliomyelitis campaign, his campaigns in relation to B.C.G., diphtheria and inoculation, he has got to take on the selling of these ideas, not on such a great scale, but on a comparable scale.

It is no good coming in here and moaning to the individuals here who spend our time in the Dáil about the non-success of his campaigns. If the managing directors of the tobacco companies confined their remarks and their propaganda to the annual general meetings of their shareholders they would sell precious few cigarettes. With the exception of some leaflets to school children, these two lines in his speech are virtually the Minister's sole contribution towards this campaign to try to bring to realisation in the public mind that as well as being a silly, costly and stupid habit, cigarette smoking is a highly dangerous one from the point of view of their health.

I am particularly interested, of course, in the Minister's reflections on the need for free choice of doctor. It seems difficult to understand the kind of man who would spend forty years in public life, many of them in the Department of Health, and at the fag end of his career come in here and tell us that he thinks a case can be made for having a free choice of doctor. I wonder often whether the Minister is a complete hypocrite, whether he is dishonest or whether he is particularly stupid. I find it difficult to understand the justification for this dithering dissertation on the merits of free choice of doctor, the advantages of the panel service and the need for consideration of the problem. I wonder whether at last the Minister is convinced by our arguments. Is it possible that he is not the inconvertible we talked about earlier on? Is it possible that at last it is beginning to percolate into his consciousness that there is a grave injustice in insisting that a person who is ill cannot take the doctor of his choice and get treatment from the doctor of his choice, as is the position in the dispensary service?

On the other hand, I wonder if on election eve it is stop press news for election purposes, to round off an election manifesto, or is this the best the Party could do in order to kick this man into the 20th century, in order to make him accept the fact that something has to be done about the patchwork of inadequacies which constitutes our so-called health services?

As I said, the panel service is an esoteric relic of Victoriana. Lloyd George discarded the panel service, but here it is being postulated in 1961 as a tenable proposition for the solution of the problem of the needs of the sick in the fading twentieth century. It is as if the Minister for Education were to tell us that he is thinking of introducing compulsory education up to the age of 12 or, as if the Minister for Justice were to tell us he thinks flogging is a good thing and that he is going to introduce it, or as if the Minister for Agriculture were to come in and tell us he had just invented the wheel and it was going to revolutionise agriculture. Surely the Minister cannot expect us to take seriously this absurd contribution towards the likely needs of development in the health services ?

May I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that the panel service was tried for the best part of 30 or 40 years in Britain and discarded because it was useless, inequitable; because it failed in its purpose to provide an equitable service and was replaced by the national health service with free, no-means-test services. It was quite rightly replaced.

Have the British doctors no panels ?

Do not quibble. You have made an ass of yourself sufficiently without continuing——

The Deputy is caught now, you see.

Is there not a national health service ? Under the national health service, which is the only system likely to give an equitable health service, there is free choice of doctor and there must be free choice of doctor, not only of dispensary doctor. That would be futile because that would limit the patients to a lesser extent than at present, but would still limit the patients to a dispensary doctor. If there is a free choice of doctor, it must be a free choice of any practitioner in the area. In addition, I think that presupposes the ending of the dispensary service.

It has been said that the need for a free choice of doctor arises in the metropolitan areas, that in the rural areas it is not a practical proposition because there is only a dispensary doctor there anyway, particularly in remoter areas. That is quite true, particularly the reference to the dispensary doctor in remoter areas, but I think there is one qualification. If there was a free choice of doctor, I think there would be an influx of young practitioners who would be glad to take up the challenge of medical practice in rural Ireland if they could be assured of a free-choice-of-doctor system and of a right to compete against the dispensary doctor on the same terms as dispensary doctors have.

I believe it will transpire that the logic of the situation will be that the dispensary service must go. That was my view in the Department. One of the reasons I made relatively few serious attempts, I confess, to expand the dispensary service to any great extent was that I felt the time must come when the dispensary service must be replaced by a general practitioner service in which there would be completely free choice of doctor, a free choice not confined solely to the lowly. I believe that as long as we have the definition or the barriers between the paying and non-paying patients there will continue to be two-tiered medicine. As long as there is the panel service, the fever patient panel service for the lower income group, with the middle-income group paying their way, as they are at present, there will be two-tiered medicine. The only solution is to abolish the dispensary service altogether and compensate the persons who entered the dispensary service in the bona fide belief that it offered them salaried work for the rest of their lives, and abolish it as a good riddance, a heritage of the old poor law system. As long as it persists the people will continue to believe that it retains the old stigma of the poorhouse.

While I have nothing but contempt for the reasoning of the Minister in his Estimate speech on this matter and for his equivocal, dithering doodling on the question of whether we should, or should not, have a free choice of doctor, I welcome it as an indication that, even to his deeply-submerged social consciousness, it is at last beginning to penetrate that the existing general medical services are grossly defective; that they give, broadly speaking, a bad medical service on the dispensary side and a grossly inadequate medical service for the middle income group. I recognise this silly interjection of the Minister—silly though it may be—as an understanding, a realisation by the Minister that there are people behind him who are closer to the public than he is himself and who have a clearer recognition of the needs of the public in their health services and that they are at last succeeding, as I said before, in kicking him, willy-nilly, into the mid-twentieth century, and that he will, in the near future, leave off the self-admiring daydream of his mid-Victorian love, the 1916-1922 era.

I want to take this opportunity to draw the attention of the Minister to the position in my constituency with regard to health treatment generally, and to some aspects of it specifically. In Cork, we have many hospitals, some of which are now old buildings which would need the expenditure of a considerable sum of money on renovation and reconstruction to bring them up to date. Even the oldest buildings I am glad to say serve the community in the very best tradition.

I should like to draw attention, as I have done before, to the very definite need for a nurses' home attached to the North Infirmary. The staff there are living in absolutely deplorable conditions. I am aware, and the Department is also aware, that a site has been procured, purchased and cleared, and what is necessary now is the money to build. That is a very urgent problem.

There is also a very urgent problem in the St. Finbarr's Hospital which has been awaiting decision from the Department for some months, that is, the position in regard to the children's ward. There is a positive and acute danger of cross-infection in that the children can go into the ward in which there are no cubicles. There again, I am perfectly satisfied that the Department is aware of the seriousness of the position. What I cannot understand is why the decision should be so long delayed. I admit it will cost some money but that work is so urgent and necessary, and so much good work is being done in that hospital, as in others, in spite of difficulties, that it calls for an immediate decision.

The South Infirmary, the Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital and the Mercy Hospital all have their own problems, some fairly serious—none too serious— but all awaiting attention. The question of where the money is to come from arises, of course, and that brings me to a problem that has been agitating us in Cork for many years—the provision of a new regional hospital. It seems to me that the cost of all the needs of the other hospitals could be met at one quarter of the cost of a new regional hospital, that is, the capital cost. Of course, when the new regional hospital is built, it will have to be staffed and maintained at a considerable annual expense, while the existing institutions, with a little renovation and the extension of some wards in parts of the buildings, could be so fitted so as to meet modern needs and requirements. It is my personal view that there is no immediate need for a regional hospital in Cork. I wonder what will be the fate of the hospitals which have been there so long and have served the community so well ? If this regional hospital is ever established for what purpose will the other institutions be used.

Another problem, to my mind, is the overcrowding in St. Mary's Mental Hospital. Overcrowding is causing considerable uneasiness and particularly now, as there seems to be a new awareness amongst many people of what can be done for mental illness, many more people are beginning to take advantage of the services that can be rendered to them in these institutions. The doctors in charge have opened clinics in other hospitals in the city and, as I say, they are being extensively used. That is a good trend, but there must be facilities for these patients. St. Mary's is very overcrowded.

It is also a fact, as has been said, that many old people have been discharged from that institution as soon as alternative accommodation was provided for them such as was provided some years ago at Heatherside Sanatorium. We heard yesterday evening and this morning of the need for old people's homes. The need is as great in my constituency as anywhere else. In the past few months, we have inspected disused institutions in Youghal and Kinsale, and last week in Macroom, we found an institution which had been left idle for six or seven years but which is in a remarkably good state of preservation. As a layman, I would say that about £1,000 would put it in excellent condition to provide accommodation for old people.

I should like the Minister to tell me if it is a fact that the principal objection is that it would not house more than 25 or 30 people ? Although that may not be economical, surely there is something to be said for taking the long view. These people would be living in their own district, near their own relatives, and the staff from the adjoining hospital would be able to lend a hand with regard to cooking facilities and other staffing arrangements so adjacent to them. Surely there is some economy in that very fact ? Besides, to my mind, it is desirable to have people living within reach of their own relatives in their own nice modern building in their own locality. Therefore, until such time as we can provide the Utopian ideal solution that some people envisage, we should be content to renovate the smaller places which exist and spend money on them to provide homes for old people in their own localities.

I am also interested in the position in regard to retarded children. There again, I am satisfied that progress has been made fairly rapidly in the past few years in treating children handicapped physically or mentally. Parents are becoming anxious, as we all should be, about the rehabilitation of these young children when they reach the age of 16, 17 or 18 years. Rehabilitation committees have been set up by the Department and they should try to co-ordinate their activities and co-operate with one another.

In Cork, for instance, we have a cerebral palsy clinic, but not knowing the magnitude of the problem, we are not in a position to meet all our needs. There is one organisation dealing with retarded children and it has residential buildings where the children attend from Monday morning to Friday afternoon. I feel that with a little co-operation that building, or some part of it, could be used to house the children afflicted by cerebral palsy who have to come to Cork for treatment. I can state that there are children who should be treated at least twice a week in the Cork clinic and they are not able to travel to Cork more than twice a month. That, certainly, is something that should be avoided if possible and remedied.

I welcome the course which the Department have provided for teachers at home and abroad who are engaged in educating children defective in mind or body. I also welcome the course which has been provided for physiotherapists. I think these are very necessary. I should not like to depart from that subject without paying a special tribute to the amount of voluntary effort, physical and financial, put by the public into the various organisations in my constituency which deal with retarded children.

I welcome the Minister's attitude in regard to dental treatment. I agree that if we could afford it, all classes of dental treatment should be tackled at once, but if we cannot afford it and have to draw the line somewhere, I think the money is spent most wisely when spent on work of teeth conservation for children. I think the Department could not do better than expand the schools dental service. I commend the work done at the clinic in Cork where they have four or five dentists employed. They are doing excellent work for children only. I should like to see that work extended.

With regard to adults and the work done at the dental hospital in Cork there is a matter which is very much in the forefront in Cork at the present time, that is, the provision of a new dental hospital. I might mention that this very week the results of the examinations for dentists in Cork have been published. They were, as they have been for some years now, one hundred per cent. Every student passed the examinations and became qualified, some of them with honours and that under rather appalling difficulties.

They have not got the space there to enrol more than 12 students per year. The Minister spoke about the shortage of dentists. I must point out that we are short of dentists in Cork because we have not the physical accommodation to provide for students. I know there are Departments other than the Department of Health interested in the provision of a new dental hospital. I am sure the Department of Education and the Department of Finance would also have something to say in the matter but I hope the Department of Health will put their full weight and influence behind the provision of a new dental hospital for Cork. There are only two centres in the country— one in Dublin and one in Belfast, and since the latter is not under our jurisdiction, I think it is absolutely necessary that the one in Cork should be brought up-to-date and modernised.

As regards the provision of dentures, much can be said in public about it and some things can be said which can be misrepresented. It seems to me that while people who are used to having teeth in their head should be provided with dentures, at the same time, if the money is wanted for other dental treatment more urgently, there is a case to be made for people who have been 20 years without dentures. I think that in such cases medical opinion should be sought. I think it would be necessary to have a medical man's certificate to say that such an aged person requires teeth for the good of his health. I am not at all to be taken as suggesting that dentures should not be made available to people but I feel that some safeguard should be provided so that that service would not be abused.

I listened to the criticism of the blue card, the red ticket or the medical card, as it is called in Cork. I am rather surprised that there still seem to be public representatives who fail to appreciate that although a person may not have a medical card in his pocket continually, he is still entitled to treatment for any specific illness. Where he requires attention, if his circumstances are such that he cannot afford to pay for it himself, he is entitled to free medical treatment within his means.

I must pay a tribute to the manager of our health authority. As far as I am personally concerned, any representations I ever made for a person who may not have qualified on the face of it because of income have always been met with consideration and sympathy. Since the Health Act was enacted, I have yet to meet a person who suffered because he could not afford to pay for medical treatment. There is difficulty in getting a medical card. There are too many people who feel it is absolutely indispensable to have a medical card in their pocket. I do not think that is always necessary at all. Nowadays, it should be realised that if an illness happens and you have to go to hospital, you can be treated free if you cannot afford to pay and get the best services available.

I would appeal, therefore, to the Department for an early decision on the project of the proposed Cork Regional Hospital. I listened to Deputy Desmond and Deputy Corry last night and I would say that in that particular matter, they have real reason for being vocal because it has now come to the stage in Cork where, when you want a couple of thousand pounds for any institution, the matter is deferred pending a decision as to whether we are to have a £2,000,000 Regional Hospital or not.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself but my personal opinion is that a regional hospital at the present time is not necessary, urgent or even desirable. I feel that with £250,000 of the £2 million, we could have a splendid medical hospitalisation service in Cork. Therefore, to avoid any misunderstanding for the future, let us at least be on a par with other centres when we request money for the renovation or improvement of our institutions. I would ask that the Department give us an early decision on this matter.

Finally, I should like to congratulate the Department and the Minister on granting the necessary money to the Erinville Hospital, to enable it to provide a very necessary service, a service which was long awaited. I hope that now that the position is, as the Minister admits, more fluid and a little more money is available, with the decision I have asked for, the position in Cork will be very much improved before we come to next year's Estimate.

The first thing to which I should like to refer is the construction and building of hospitals. I noticed from the Minister's statement that this work is to be recommenced. I found myself in agreement with the previous speaker in that there are many hospitals and buildings which could be reconstructed and a great deal of money saved rather than starting from scratch and building new hospitals. Arising from that, I want to refer to representations I made to the Department recently in regard to the Wicklow Memorial Hospital in Arklow on behalf of the trustees of the hospital. It is a building which was constructed as a hospital and is suitable as such and my representations were that it should be taken over by the Department and utilised. That suggestion was not acceptable to the Department. The reply I received was that it was really a matter for the local authority.

I want to know, if in my constituency or any other constituency, there is a building which is suitable for reconstruction, is it a matter for the local authority to decide that or is it a matter for the over-riding authority of the Department of Health? It does not make sense to me. The Department must have an over-all say in the construction of our hospitals.

When the Minister or his advisers receive representations in regard to hospitals from Deputies, or even from local representatives, they should examine those hospitals to see if they can be utilised. If existing buildings could be made suitable, the taxpayers could be saved money. I hope the Department will reconsider the matter of the Wicklow Memorial Hospital and ensure that buildings such as that which have served a useful purpose over the years will not be sold as scrap, because that is what is going to happen.

The Minister has introduced his fifth Estimate. I consider that the Minister is not a bureaucrat's stooge but a man who forms his own opinion and takes his own action and anybody who has listened to his speech or has read it must be disappointed to a certain extent. It is his fifth Estimate, as I say, and possibly it may be his last as Minister for Health. Of course that remains to be seen in the uncertain days that lie ahead. However, it has undoubtedly emerged from listening to the debate, and in particular to the two speakers who were protagonists of the policy of State medical service, that all is not satisfactory in the country.

I listened to two speakers, who I remember spoke with some vehemence and expressed views — contrary to the opinions I was expressing from 1951 to 1954—in favour of a State medical service and the system of bureaucratic control that exists over the private lives of individuals today. One was Deputy Desmond of the Labour Party, speaking last night, and the other was Deputy Dr. Browne. They both expressed the gravest dissatisfaction with the health services as they are now. I have been accused, as I was accused from 1951 to 1954 when I opposed this Health Act and all that it entails in its administration, of being a reactionary. The Health Act is just as unworkable now as it was then. I want to put my views before the House in regard to the vexed question of health cards. The changing of the name "red ticket," as it was called heretofore, to "health card"—that is about the sum total of the health services that have been given to this country, apart from the maternity service which, as I stated before, is a success.

The maternity service with the free choice of doctor allowed thereunder, and the ante-natal care provided is satisfactory. Apart from that, the health services are just as obsolete as the day the Act was passed and proof of that lies in the health cards. I have not been a Deputy for 10 years— although it is not 10 years since we passed the Health Act; it is about seven years—nor am I holding medical qualifications without knowing the difficulties the general public are facing with regard to the question of health cards. A health card entitles a person to free medical service and it also entitles him to free treatment in hospital. In my constituency, I can appreciate the difficulty of the county manager who is constantly fighting to keep within the finances available. That is his job as overall executor. It is only natural that he will endeavour to keep down to the lowest possible level the number of medical cards and there are certain instances where it is justifiable to suggest that a man who is in regular employment, and perhaps some members of his family who are in regular employment as well, are not entitled to health cards.

But it has been my experience that the many people who come to me endeavouring to get health cards are not so much worried about the treatment which is necessary as with the fact that they may have to go to hospital. The answer is always given that if these people have to go to hospital, they will be dealt with on their merits and as separate cases. That may be, and in many cases they are dealt with as such, but people do not always know these things. I am sure there is a great deal of anxiety neurosis being suffered by breadwinners who do not want to go to hospital and give up their employment. They feel that if they go, they will have to pay and that they will have to leave their families and that anybody who may be sick in that family will be unprovided for.

For that purpose I suggest to the Minister there should be two types of health card. Apart from the ordinary health card which entitles people to general medical practitioner treatment, there ought to be another health card issued to those who do not come within Section 14 of the Health Act so that they could avail of free medical and specialist treatment in hospital. That would be an innovation and would help in clearing up the situation that exists not only in my constituency but elsewhere in Ireland, and would prevent people suffering from a continued anxiety neurosis.

On the question of the health card itself, the position as to who is entitled to a health card and who is not has never been clarified and I do not think in the life of this Dáil under the aegis of this Minister for Health that it will be clarified. As far as the health services generally and the maternity service in particular are concerned, there is very little improvement since the Act was implemented and as it has been administered by the Minister and his advisers. This is a matter that requires urgent consideration.

In his opening address the Minister mentioned that the principal causes of death in Ireland still are cardiac disease, coronary thrombosis and cancer and that there is evidence of an increase in the incidence of cancer of the lungs. Many arguments have been adduced from time to time in support of the contention that tobacco smoking is directly responsible for cancer of the lung. I am inclined to agree with the opinion expressed by some Deputies that smoking may be a predisposing cause of cancer of the lungs but I would not accept the proposition that it is in itself entirely responsible for that condition nor would I accept the argument that if smoking were abolished altogether or if people were encouraged to smoke less than they do, there would be any significant change in the statistics. I hasten to assure the House that I do not smoke at all myself and have not done so for years. It is a fact that many people die of cancer of the lungs who never smoke at all. One might say that from the period of the first World War, 1914-18, smoking has been heavy not only among men but among women as well. It is true to say that, when women smoke, they smoke just as heavily as men but the incidence rate of cancer is not as high among women as it is among men.

I suggest to the House, as I have done before, that the most likely predisposing cause of cancer of the lung is oil fumes. The use of diesel oil has been greatly extended over the past few years. Twenty-five years ago practically all ships were power driven by coal and it is only recently they have changed over to oil burning. The statistics compiled by the British Navy, one of the best services for compiling statistics on this subject, show that the incidence of cancer is very high among stokers, who live in an atmosphere of oil fumes. In every city in the world today there is a greater quantity of oil fumes floating about than there were in the past. This is noticeable in any crowded traffic centre. Our buses and trains are propelled by diesel oil, and even petrol fumes which also bear a relation to the problem, permeate the atmosphere.

This is a serious matter even taking into account the fact that there is a higher rate of diagnosis of lung cancer than heretofore. It is my opinion that, if research is to be carried out, it should be approached from that angle. Although tobacco smoking may be a factor to be considered the other is a greater danger to the public and the evaluation of the problem in other countries over the past few years goes a long way to substantiate that claim.

Deputy Dr. Browne suggests we should have a free-for-all health service without a means test. To give him his due, he has always advocated that. He is one of the few Deputies in Dáil Éireann who believe in a complete, shall I say, socialisation of medicine. The figures the Minister gave the House would indicate that there is an increasing charge coming all the time for health services. Every Deputy will accept that that in itself is not an undesirable thing provided this service is producing an adequate return for the money that is expended. I jotted down a few notes from the Minister's speech this morning. Apparently it is costing the country £18 million this year; it cost £17.6 million a year ago and £16.8 million the year before; in 1957 the figure was £15.8 million and for 1953 the figure was £11.2 million. One will see from that that there is a considerable advance in the money that is being spent.

One or two Deputies complained that when they made representations with regard to people receiving treatment and so forth they did not always meet with the satisfaction they expected. One Deputy in particular stressed the fact that the county manager was the person responsible for denying people the benefits to which they are entitled. Therein lies the whole fallacy in regard to health administration. I would like to see the best conditions and the best service possible afforded to everybody concerned. If you try and standardise the treatment of medicine and lay down hard and fast rules as to who is and who is not entitled to treatment, you are going to create hardship.

I have spoken about medical cards, but I want to come now to the middle income group, the most controversial group. The middle income group is covered by Section 15 of the Health Act, which is supposed to make available to the people the most wonderful services and State assistance. The trouble with all these State panaceas is that you have to have hard and fast rules. Those over £50 valuation are not entitled to any treatment. Those over a certain income —I think it is now raised to £800 a year—are not entitled to anything either. As against that we have Section 16 under which, I think, undue hardship suffered by anybody is to be alleviated by the beneficient State. That is where the whole snag enters into the question of State medicine, where these huge sums of money voted will not be properly expended.

The difficulty is this. When I was a medical practitioner in rural Ireland, if a person required medical treatment, independent of their valuation or anything else but purely on the conditions I found within the confines of that household, I used make a recommendation to a voluntary hospital and it used to give the patient the requisite treatment. He had to pay only the amount he was able to pay. I am not now in medical practice myself but I am frequently approached by other people who are. The medical practitioner can still make a recommendation but he does not make it to the hospital—he makes it to the county manager. The county manager refers the matter back to the home assistance officer and the home assistance officer then decides, purely on the person's valuation or the amount of money going into the House, whether that person is entitled to free treatment or not.

It all looks lovely on paper. Bureaucracy is happy about it. There we have State medical services. We are going to give people with a certain income all the benefits they want. I want to put a question to the Minister and his advisers. You can have a person with £900 a year, which puts him outside the middle income group, and you can have a person with £52 valuation on his farm. The man with £900 a year may have nine children and he may be living in Dublin where he has to pay for everything. The same could apply to the man with the £52 valuation. It may well be answered that all they have to do is to apply to the county manager under Section 16. But a county manager's job is to try and contain his expenses. He has to try to keep the rates down as much as possible because he knows the county council will not permit him to increase the rates unless it is absolutely necessary to do so.

I have only cited these facts to show that to try and put medicine under State control and to put medical matters under laymen creates an impossible situation. I do not blame the county managers. That is their job. They have been put as the executive of the health authority to contain the health services and run them as cheaply as possible. But I have cited these facts to show the great difficulties people face. I am absolutely satisfied myself from my own experience of the anxiety and worry being caused to the general public. Those anxieties and worries are far bigger now than they were in the far off days when our health services were run largely through the voluntary hospitals.

In my own county it is very unusual for a Section 16 case, concerning people unable to pay themselves without undue hardship, to be made operative. Some Deputies may say: "Why not revert to the original position and have the original arrangement with a voluntary hospital or institution?" The answer is simple. The voluntary hospitals are themselves caught up in this vicious circle. They are dependent for their existence on the grants they receive from the Department of Health. They are always nervous of the fact— those in charge of such institutions have never hesitated to say this—that if they allow people to come in at a lesser rate, they will be told "You have done so and so. Therefore, you do not want the grant" and they have difficulty in getting their grants afterwards.

I want to take my hat off to voluntary institutions. There is still a great deal of charity in the world, not only in the institutions run by religious authorities but also in lay institutions. I recently had to go to a lay institution where some unfortunate people had a bill of £135, which they were totally incapable of meeting. I want to state publicly in Dáil Éireann that when I went to the authorities in this hospital and told them the position, there was no come-back; they simply said "We are a non-profit institution. We are trying to do our best for the general public. The only thing we can do in this case is to meet you and forget that the money is owed."

The only thing they asked me to do was to ask the people if they could contribute something towards the cost. I am proud and happy to say in this year 1961, when we all seem to be becoming socialists or State minded, that the debt was wiped out, that the members of the family came together and, although they could ill afford it, contributed £40 towards the payment of the debt. That is something to be proud of. It goes to show that, with all the talk of State institutions and State medicine, every question is a personal one. It is only by working on those lines that you can really do the best possible for our people.

I was disappointed in the Minister's statement. I mentioned before he came in that I believed him to be one of the Ministers who is not a bureacratic stooge and that he had his own point of view. But I am disappointed that his statement on the administration of the health services, which everybody knows to be a washout, was very much in the nature of laissez faire. This is the fifth Estimate he has introduced. The question of choice of doctor has been raised. It is a very difficult question and one on which one should be slow to speak unless one has a certain amount of first-hand knowledge and experience. As I said, there is a choice of doctor in regard to maternity cases. I think that is one of the really satisfactory things to emerge from the 1953 Health Act. There is a free choice of doctor there and it has removed a lot of hardship.

A woman who is to have a baby likes to go to the doctor of her choice. Under the present system she is free to go to whom she pleases. With regard to the rural areas, however, I do not think the same system would be feasible. I cannot conceive of any scheme whereby you could implement the same system in rural Ireland unless you had a total State service. A total State service is something I would eschew. I think the House realises why in the light of some of my earlier comments.

It should be possible to ensure a choice of doctor if they were concentrated in bigger centres and if they were interchangeable. We must, however, accept the fact that we have a limited population in rural Ireland. Indeed, that particular feature of our countryside forms one of our main tourist attractions; tourists regard the country as one great park. But that is by the way. We have, as I say, a very limited population and, therefore, we can reasonably have only one doctor in each area. It is just wishful thinking to think a choice of doctor could be given. In the more densely populated areas, however, there is no reason why there should not be a choice of doctor. Indeed, I believe the doctors themselves would commend such a system.

Again, there must be safeguards for those entering the service. If a man sets up in medical practice here he is not an all-time man. At least, very few of them are. The young, married man would have to be protected if we want to have the service adumbrated in Section 14. There could be a limited choice of doctor. I take it Dublin is divided up into several dispensary districts. It should be quite easy to group different districts together. In Wexford there are three or four doctors. They could be grouped. In that way a choice of doctor could be provided. That is the only way I see in which it could be done. The only other way would be the panel system of which Deputy Dr. Browne does not approve. Neither do I. I think it is a bad system. Certainly it would be unworkable here because we have not got the population to support it.

I have some comments to make now with regard to tuberculosis. That disease is still with us. I support the Minister's suggestion that more people should avail of the mass radiography service. People are very prone to T.B. in early adult life and they are very actively infective to others. That is the root of the trouble. I do not think mass radiography is as well advertised as it should be. People are not cognisant of the fact that the service is available to them. It is vital that we should keep down the tuberculosis rate. Some years ago it was the principal cause of death in this country. The way in which it has been reduced is nothing short of miraculous and, though I do not agree with Deputy Dr. Browne's outlook in relation to medical services, credit must be given to him for the part he played in curbing the incidence of tuberculosis. It was he, as Minister for Health in the first inter-Party Government, who carried out the drive against tuberculosis. It is vitally important that the need for early diagnosis should be impressed on people. They should also be made aware of the liability of certain age groups to the disease. Only in that way can we hope to maintain our present mastery over this disease.

Finally, I am a member of the Irish Medical Association. I am not, perhaps, a very good member. I pay my subscription, and that is about all. The association represents the majority of Irish doctors. I think everyone must agree that the situation today with regard to health services is unsatisfactory. It is only by a collaboration of all the interests concerned that one can hope to rectify the situation. The position with regard to mental health is most unsatisfactory. Now, let me assure the Minister at once that I do not blame him for that. Part of the cause may lie in the fact that we obtained our freedom so late. Services had to be built up over the years.

One of the existing disabilities is that the medical profession is not represented at the conferences with the Minister. I have never referred to this delicate subject before. I have never, though I could have done so, asked a Parliamentary Question about it. It is most desirable that the present disagreement between the Minister and the medical profession should come to an end. I do not suppose the Minister will be Minister for Health in the next Government. He has always treated me with courtesy. I give him credit for having a mind of his own. I make him one offer: if, as a member of the Irish Medical Association, I can do anything to bring the Parties together for the purpose of settling this senseless dispute, I shall be both happy and willing to give my services in that direction.

This is another Estimate in relation to which the professional has a decided advantage. However, we all have certain experiences and we receive complaints from time to time which it is our duty to make known. I intend to deal particularly with the question of treatment and the ceiling of £800. Before doing so, I want to refer to the conditions under which nurses serve in hospitals.

It so happens that I am a member of the Dublin Health Authority and, as such, I was on a visiting team to all the hospitals under the Department of Health. I was also on a subcommittee that met recently to discuss nurses' complaints. As a result of questioning matrons and nurses, it would seem to me that there is great difficulty, not only in getting girls to enter the nursing profession but in holding them, that while girls may remain on for a year or two, they are only too glad to emigrate to countries where they can get much better conditions. The matrons say that they are never certain as to how long the girls will stay on. It is quite obvious that there is dissatisfaction, not only about remuneration, but also about conditions. Unless we treat our nurses better, we will always have this problem.

Nursing appears, on the face of it, to be a glamorous profession like that of an air hostess. The fact remains that the nurse's job is most unpleasant at times. In any profession where there is any work that is known as "dirty" work, there are special conditions. I should not like to refer to the work of nurses as "dirty" work but it is often most unpleasant work and nurses should receive special remuneration on that account.

It has been represented to me that there ought to be more privacy for maternity cases entering maternity hospitals. Entrance to the Rotunda Hospital is made from the public street and there are always a number of "gawkers", which must be most embarrassing for a pregnant woman. Many urgent cases are carried in on stretchers. I have objected to this on a previous occasion. There is a private entrance to the hospital but it is not used. I should like the Minister to raise this matter so that cases entering the hospital need not be a public exhibition. I have had complaints from women in regard to this matter and that is why I raise it here now.

Deputy Esmonde referred to the problem of hospital treatment and cost. Any public representative has experience in this connection. From time to time, persons complain to their public representative about the lack of a blue card or in regard to hospital bills. People have come to me in a panic. The worst cases were people with £1,000 a year. A person can obtain a blue card only if he is unemployed or has a small income. It is a fact that workers who have only a labourer's wage and who have a family are denied the blue card. The Health Act which was enacted to do good, has done as much harm as good. Disease should be tackled in the early stages, in which case we would not have half the hospital cases we have.

Under the Act, a married person who has five or six children and an income of £8 or £9 a week must pay the full cost of hospital treatment and must pay for what was formerly free treatment, namely, dispensary treatment. The average worker with a family has a particular way of living and on a Thursday has no money and is looking forward to pay day. As a member of Dublin Corporation, I know that a great many of these people find it difficult to pay their rent, never mind paying 10/- or 15/- every time one of their children has a cold. If he has not a blue card, he must pay the doctor and in most cases the doctor writes out a prescription, which must be paid for.

About six months ago, a woman came to me with a prescription for a couple of tablets she had had made up. The cost was 17/6d. If workers, borderline cases, if you like, are denied a blue card and have to pay for every little ailment, it stands to reason that they will not call in the doctor and the children will suffer.

That is why I say that the Act, which was supposed to be the cure-all, encourages people to deny their children medical attention for the reason that they are without the means to pay for it. The lack of medical attention in the initial stage means that disease may be aggravated. Children are allowed to suffer without medical aid for the reason that their parents have not got the 10/- or 12/6d. to pay to a doctor every time they develop a cold. Instead of early treatment in this case, those children are allowed to suffer and in many cases must stay out of school for weeks. Where young children are employed they must stay out of work. Very often, also, although they have the name of being employed the employment means 30/- or £2 a week and when the child deducts pocket-money, clothing-check money or something else, the income of the child, allowing that it must be fed, becomes nil.

This raises another question. When a person's income is estimated the income of the family is also considered. We, in Dublin Corporation, calculate only part of their income for the purpose of rents but in the case of medical treatment the total income is considered. From personal experience I know that a large number of parents do not obtain treatment for their children. They just let them suffer for the very reason that they have not money to pay for treatment. I think that the people who have under £800 a year should at least be able to get, if not free dispensary treatment for children under a certain age, treatment at low cost. Formerly, they could get treatment at a dispensary for 1/- or 1/6d. but since this Act became law they cannot do that. They must go to a private doctor.

I am allowing a fair amount of latitude to the Deputy. He may not advocate changes in legislation. He may discuss only the administration of the Department and of the Act.

Other speakers have "gone to town" on this and I think I should have the same right. If you have over £800 a year the local authority will not make any contribution. The Minister should consider raising that ceiling to £1,000. In the 1957 Act the figure was £600, but a few years ago it was raised to £800. Now, the time has come to raise it to £1,000.

The Deputy should ask the I.M.A. about that.

If there was any justification for raising it a few years ago because of rising costs and the drop in the value of money, surely the same argument holds now. This question of the £800 limit is a joke. It is a joke on me, anyway. I have some little experience. Perhaps it is always desirable to speak of a third party and not of yourself, but I have no objection to speaking about myself. One knows one's own experience best.

I pity all those people alleged to have over £800 a year and who have to foot the complete bill. Some of them have to live up to certain standards. A worker may go around with his shirt sticking out and the heels out of his socks on occasion, but persons in certain employment must dress to suit it. They are probably paying for houses; they probably have one or two children going to a college or secondary school. They must meet certain outlay. They may have the name of owning a house, but because of having to pay for it and meet all the other outlay in which they are involved, they can hardly afford to buy a drink for themselves at the week-end. They have all the appearance of being well-to-do, but actually they are poor people. While £800 a year would appear to be a fabulous sum to some people, I would say that many of these over-£800-a-year people are poor people, as poor as many of those with half the income. It is shocking that such people should have to foot £50 or £60 bills.

I know one such person, a reporter, who had the name of having £1,000 a year. He could not pay these bills and was threatened with court proceedings. This £800 ceiling should be raised to £1,000. As for my own experience, I happen to be a member of the House. There are probably thousands in a similar position to mine but they have not the chance of being able to make a case to the Minister. I am making this case for them and not so much on my own behalf because I have sacrificed so much that a few pounds one way or another does not matter. As a member of the House, I have the name of having £1,000 a year, less £60 for pension purposes. If anything happens in my family, I am asked to pay the full bill, but it so happens that having no other income but my salary—I have evidence of that in my income tax returns—and seeing that I have to pay my own expenses to get into the House, I estimate my income as £10 a week, not £1,000 a year.

I have the bills for the municipal election, the last general election and the by-election and there is another general election coming in three or four months. I can produce the bills I have had to pay out of my salary. I have only half the £1,000 a year and I can prove that. I can bring in receipts for all the payments I have made. If I did not pay those moneys I would not get in beyond the door. I got a voluntary hospital bill which I was asked to pay in full. I am asking no favour. I suppose there are thousands of people in the same position. That is my experience. I am giving out half of what I get in and if I do not hand it out, I shall not get anything. That is a case in which a man's outlay should be considered in deciding whether or not he should get some support from the local authority.

Last year I mentioned that I was interested in the cancer problem. I do not claim that I am able to make any contribution towards a cure— nobody can do that—but I am interested in the whole matter of early diagnosis. While every effort is being made to diagnose other ailments, such as T.B., for which we have this campaign whereby you can get free X-rays, there does not seem to be similar emphasis on early cancer diagnosis. When I asked why was the same campaign not carried out to diagnose cancer, I was told: "Oh, it is a much more deep-seated problem and you need other forms of appliances." There are elaborate appliances on the market. With the advances of science you can buy a radio and put it in your vest pocket and surely the appliances are no problem.

My point is that while there may be no guaranteed cure for cancer, there is some hope for a person if the cancer is diagnosed in the early stages, from what I know or have been told. I have known cases where the average cancer sufferer is not aware of it until a couple of months before his death. I have known of people who never complained and who because of some sudden sharp pain, were forced to have an X-ray. Only then were they told they had cancer which was so advanced that an operation was useless. As this is not a disease that shows any signs at the early stages, surely a campaign similar to the T.B. campaign for diagnosis should be carried on?

I know people, friends of mine, who never complained and suddenly, like a flash, they were informed: "You have a serious cancer and you cannot live longer than three or six months." Surely we can do something more than we are doing in our efforts to combat cancer? Surely there should be a campaign similar to the campaign carried on in regard to T.B.?

I cannot elaborate on this Estimate because I am not a medical man. I speak only from my own experience and from complaints which have reached me. Old people suffer from various complaints and one of them is stiffening of the joints, involving inability to climb stairs or to walk. It is a muscular complaint. I am sure that many of these old people, if they could obtain treatment in local clinics and get some massage treatment, would have their condition eased and their lives made more tolerable. Wealthy people can get daily massage but old people who are poor are not in a position to be treated in a clinic regularly once a week. As I say, if they got relief, it would make their lives much more tolerable. It is shocking that people should be stiff and unable to move their legs if their sufferings could be eased by the treatment I have suggested.

Unlike other Deputies I want to say that I feel the Health Act of 1953 has had beneficial effects and its administration throughout the years that followed, and in particular, the year just past, has been satisfactory. I know it has its defects and I realise that I cannot now advocate changes in it, but I say to the Minister that the defects of the Health Act that have shown themselves in the course of its administration, to my mind, are far outweighed by the benefits given to the poorer sections of the community.

I have to look at it from the narrow compass, if you like, of Waterford, but I am sure that conditions there are typical of the rest of the country. In particular, I want to emphasise the benefits given to married women at the periods their babies are being born. I think the Minister's speech, which I read, is conclusive proof of the value of the Health Act. Infant mortality has dropped. Why? I suggest because of the Health Act and because of the fact that the poorer sections of the community, and the working class people, receive medical care and treatment comparable with the best in Ireland. It is not a question of their means; it is a question of their needs.

In my own county, I am proud to say, there is no married mother or unmarried mother who during her pregnancy and at the time of the delivery of the baby is short of anything, because of the fact that she has not any worldly goods. That is a good thing. The cost may be questioned by other people but so far as I am concerned, I am very proud to think that when the Act went through in 1953. I was the principal speaker for the Labour Party and I supported that Act, as did Deputy Dr. Browne and various other speakers. If it were only for the section that gave to the poor people, the ordinary people, the right to have their babies with ordinary care and in comfort which was, prior to then, the privilege of people who could pay, it is a good Act. Thank God, in my county that is the case at present. There is no person who, because of lack of money, can claim that she is less well treated than the highest in the land with regard to service. That is a good thing.

I am an unrepentant supporter of the Health Act, while admitting that it has its defects as thrown up by its administration throughout the years. I shall deal with those defects in a limited way very shortly. Let me move away from the maternity section of the Health Act to the ordinary hospital services. Again, let me say my knowledge is confined to my own health authority in Waterford city and county. There is no better service than that given by the Waterford health authority. Again, if it costs something, the fact that the service given is of the highest standard is something of which I am justifiably proud. If it costs money and it must cost money, I am an unrepentant believer that that money is well spent.

During the course of the past week or so, because of a certain illness in my own family, I visited Ardkeen Hospital which is the central surgical unit for Waterford city and county. The services I have seen given there to the poorest sections of the community are comparable, I suggest, with the best services not only in Ireland but in any country in the world. Money is not the factor which decides the service; rather is it the need of the patient. I am proud to be a party to and a supporter of that scheme, irrespective of what any person says. I have seen people who in the past would be hidden away practically in cellars or garrets disabled, disfigured and unwanted, turned into normal human beings ready to take their place in this life. If that is the effect, I think that the money expended on health charges is money well spent. I have no quarrel with it beyond the fact that in the working of the Health Act certain defects have turned up.

There is just one thing I would say from which the Minister can draw his own conclusions as to whether or not he should do something about the Health Act. I realise that I am not permitted to advocate legislation but I am permitted to say how people feel about the administration of the scheme at present. I would say that a good deal of the resentment has arisen from the fact that the £800 ceiling is out of date. In 1953, it was £600; later, it was £800. Money had a different value then from what it has today.

Since then, through trade union action in which I have taken part in my own constituency, we have secured improved standards but, unfortunately, in improving these standards, we have thrown out of a category of benefit people who we feel were entitled to it. I take it that the improvement we got was to compensate for the prices of things, the cost of living, call it what you like, the varying changes in money values. I think the Minister should examine the validity of that argument. Is there a change in the money values? The Minister should examine this matter and see if an adjustment can be made.

I am quite well aware that there is a section outside and above the present group. There is the lower income group, the middle income group and people in the higher group. I know there is general resentment about the people in the higher income group. They are allowed, permitted or encouraged to take part in voluntary insurance for their families. They have to pay under a confined scheme, because if you have a bad health record or your family has a bad health record, you can get only a limited kind of scheme, a limited premium. They pay that, which is only right, but they also have to pay for those of us who are in the middle income and lower income groups. That may be distributive justice and I have nothing against it. As I interpret it, they are willing to do that, provided that in some way they can get some limited amount of benefit out of the money they so willingly give now to help other people.

I may be told that this is Deputy Dr. Browne's tale of the means test but there should be some way in which people who contribute and who get no benefit should be encouraged to contribute and get some limited benefit in accordance with their means so that they would feel that they were not giving something for nothing.

The Deputy is advocating amendment of legislation.

I know I am running very close to it. I do not want to violate the rules of the House. It is difficult to talk on this, I know. I am only trying to interpret the feelings of the people and I am leaving it to the Minister to understand. My grievance in regard to the administration of the health service is this. Whether by design, by Government instruction or whether this just applies to County Waterford I do not know, but the fact is that the number of people who are entitled to a medical card and all the wonderful benefits a medical card gives—and they are wonderful benefits—are getting fewer year by year. I should have liked last week or the week before to ask the Minister what was the percentage in Waterford this year compared with last year or the year before. I do not know but I suggest, if I do ask this question next week, that it has dropped. It used to be around 30 per cent but I suggest it has dropped somewhat.

That could be brought about by two things. Wages have been increasing, due to trade union action and other factors. That may have had the effect of putting people outside the scope of the health services. I have already dealt with the effective value of wages. There is a tightening up of the means test. I am quite certain that that is happening —a severe tightening up of the means test.

I know that on previous occasions when I asked the Minister and the previous Minister whether or not there was any scale of charges and what direction was given to the local authorities, I was met with a blank negative. I know exactly the scale of charges. I know when a person is entitled to a medical card or not. I know that the Act gives permission to the county manager, the administrative officer, to decide, if there is a case of hardship, to extend practically unlimited entitlement. In connection with the Health Act, the members of the Labour Party put down an amendment asking for a right of appeal to the Minister. I felt it would be useful. Perhaps, the Minister was wise in leaving in the hands of the local administrator the decision as to the granting of a medical card.

I can say that locally I have no great grievance. Any genuine case of hardship has been met fairly. I am very honest about it. I am not advocating legislation. This is for the Minister's benefit. I feel that the problem is this. The county manager as such is above reproach but he gets his report from minor officers, local relieving officers. I think there should be some system of a re-check on their findings. They are human beings who, living in a small area, have their prejudices, their likes and dislikes. I am not suggesting bribery, corruption or rottenness in any way but I am suggesting that they have their likes and dislikes. They are confined to a narrow area of population. I would suggest that the Minister should consider whether he could issue directions, without changing the Health Act, to county managers and other people in regard to some sort of tribunal to which local representatives could put forward a case to have re-examination of the right of people to the facility of a medical card.

I have said as much as I want to say on the administration of the health service as I see it. In my county, it has served a wonderful purpose. We have a service which is second to none in Ireland and if the cost is somewhat high, I am unrepentant and still 100 per cent. in support of it. No cost is too high to give to the people the service they require and no person in any country should be left short of medical service because he or she has not got the luck or good fortune, or whatever it is, to be born with wealth.

Deputies T. Lynch and McQuillan rose.

I suppose it is a joke to come in here at 10.30 in the morning and wait until 1.30——

I would point out to the Deputy——

I am not interested in what you have to say——

The Deputy should be, as he has just questioned the ruling of the Chair.

I will question it because I have been here since 10.30 this morning and some Deputies who spoke came in only about 20 minutes before they spoke.

I do not intend to be facetious when I say that 50 per cent. of the Deputy's Party has already spoken, which is a greater percentage than any other Party, and I am now calling on Deputy Thaddeus Lynch.

I am not interested in an inefficient and incompetent chairman but I am interested in fair play in this House.

The Deputy always gets fair play from the Chair.

That remark is uncalled for.

I put it that that is a most disorderly remark. Everybody discounts very largely what Deputy McQuillan has to say but I think in justice to the dignity of your position, Sir, as presiding over this House, you should ask the Deputy to withdraw the remark.

May I put it this way? The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has suggested he is not being facetious when he makes a "crack" that 50 per cent. of our Party has spoken. I do not believe he intended to be facetious and in the circumstances I would not like my remark that he was inefficient, which was made in haste, to be accepted as completely accurate.

I am very glad that Deputy McQuillan said that. I have often been here myself for hours waiting to be called and one feels a bit angry at the time but I suppose these are things that will happen.

As far as the health services are concerned, I would say that they have been much improved. I remember when Deputy Dr. Browne was Minister for Health—I like to give credit to anybody entitled to it—he visited Waterford when I happened to be mayor, to see the state of the hospitals. To say that the hospitals were primitive would be an understatement. Since that time, we have got Ardkeen and great improvements have been made in the county hospital. The County and City Infirmary always did well but it was too small. The service given by the hospitals in Waterford is splendid and the proof of that is that when I needed hospital treatment, I considered they were good enough, and the surgeons and doctors skilled enough, to entrust my life—perhaps worthless—to them. They did a good job on me as you see. Great advances have been made over the years. The Minister may claim some credit for that and there is some credit due to my colleague who was Minister for Health for a period.

Any Deputies who are members of local authorities must, in the course of their duties, visit the hospitals and they have all seen the great advances made. A few years ago, if anybody had anything wrong with him which was not even of a major character, he had to go to Dublin and he needed money to bring him to Dublin. If he had not got money, he stayed at home and died. We have now got out of that position. I have seen many children who would have been disfigured for life being made whole by these skilled practitioners we have. The people can now get first-class medical and surgical treatment from the hospitals and people are brought in who have been involved in serious accidents and made well again.

The only shadow over all this is the blue card and the £800 ceiling, to which I would draw the Minister's attention. If he consults with his officers and prominent members of his Party in various parts of the country, I am sure he will find he must agree with me in this matter. This morning, I heard Deputy Dillon speaking about the county homes, as they are now called, but which to the people in the country, will always be the poor houses. He said that they had improved but at the same time the stigma attaching to them remains. They are a hang-over from the old Poor Law. People in the country have a horror of going near them and the poorer the people, the greater the objection they have, especially if they are getting old and if the day dawns when they may have to go and end their days in these places.

I come from Waterford city and we have had experience of institutions for old people. We have institutions which have been there for centuries and the Minister is in the way of getting first-hand information about these from his chief executive officer who happens to be a native of Waterford city also. The oldest one, the Holy Ghost Hospital, is a magnificent building, built in the 80's. These people came from establishments set up after the dissolution of the religious houses and monasteries at the time of King Henry VIII. One of these religious houses which was confiscated by the Crown was the Franciscan Grey Friars Abbey in Waterford city. After some time, it was noticed that there was an immense number of people homeless because the monastery had been closed and a Catholic merchant from Waterford, whose name was Walsh, made an offer to the Crown for the Abbey and bought it. He said his intention in doing so was to re-open it as a home for the poor and destitute people on the streets in Waterford.

The offer was sent to the King's Commission in London and the King himself who agreed to accept it—he must have been short of money at the time—said: "I will endow it with so much land." The land with which he endowed it was the land that surrounds us in the city. The land there at the time was a mud swamp. Years went by and it was reclaimed and a great deal of the city is built on it. Then some prominent Irishmen led by the late Edward Leamy pulled this whole estate together. The old abbey was falling to pieces and they applied to the Commission of Charitable Donations and Bequests to allow them to build a new place. They built this place called the Holy Ghost Hospital which is administered still in the manner in which Henry VIII said it should be administered by the Mayor of Waterford, the aldermen and the bishops.

The Bishop of Waterford and Lismore and the Bishop of Cashel and Emly are both members of the board. Old people are entitled to go there and get a room. For married couples there are small cottages available in the grounds. There is a nun there from St. John of God's who supplies the meals from the kitchen. It is very well run. I might say in passing that old Henry in giving this land said that when this monastery would be opened, the only rent he would demand for it was that the aged in this institution would say the rosary every night for him and his predecessors, and they are saying it still.

That is only one of the institutions in Waterford. There are also the Walsh's, the Matthew Shea's, the Wyse's, the James Fanning's, the Brunetti's, the Burchall's, and the Widows' Apartment. Those were all set up by Catholic merchants. They were much appreciated by old people who did not have to go to the poorhouse. The point I am making is this: When those Catholic merchants were prepared to do this for old people, now that we have native government, we should, instead of spending lots of money on the county homes, consider the advisability of having some cottages or apartments built for old people. I do not want to delay the House but if the Minister would like more information on this I can provide it. An official from the Department of Health—I think he is in Dublin now —gave a lecture to the Old Waterford Society on institutions for old people. That is in print and if the Minister would like a copy of it, I will send it to him.

I know the Minister is an aggressive man and he can carry on his battle with the doctors—that has been dealt with by other Deputies—but he should be more of a cavalier and not carry on the battle with the nurses. He should hearken to the plea of the nurses for better treatment. It is a good thing to have the doctors and the hospitals the Department have supplied but what we must all depend upon is the great nursing service we get from these very fine girls who follow this vocation. Irish nurses or Irish nuns who take up nursing are second to none in the world. Their delegates made representations to the Minister only a short time ago and in replying to them, the Minister used the same weapon as he used against the doctors.

I do not think so.

He should be more of a cavalier in dealing with the nurses.

I was never a lady's man.

It is about time the Minister would be.

It is too late to begin that now.

Nearly all the points I would like to have made in this debate have been covered by other Deputies. I do not intend to repeat them at this hour because there are other Deputies who want to speak and I am sure the Minister wants to get his Estimate through. However, summing up, I would ask him to investigate the shadow that is over the whole health service, the question of the blue card, the £800 ceiling, and the matter of homes for old people so as not to have the shadow of the county home hanging over them. Lastly, I would ask him to deal leniently with the nursing profession.

I wish to congratulate the Minister and his able officials on the satisfactory state of hospitalisation. Undoubtedly it gives confidence to the Minister and his officials when they hear all the praise being sung by Opposition Deputies. It is very encouraging to them that only pinholes are being pricked. There is no greater inducement to them to do a little more, if at all possible.

Deputy Lynch referred to what was once the workhouse. I am glad to say that in my constituency the people have forgotten it was the workhouse at one time. It is now St. Patrick's Hospital. These places should not be referred to as county homes any longer. Nowadays such an institution is a place to be loved, not shunned, by any young or old person, who has to enter it. The proof of that is that every day people are looking for the available beds in it.

I should like to ask the Minister who has the right to admit an old or infirm person to such an institution. I know of a case where a humane medical officer—I do not know the gentleman; I never saw him—on two or three occasions issued an admission ticket to an old lady, 90 years of age, who is totally blind, but her entry into hospital was refused. It was not refused by the matron, who has not the authority. It now appears that the authority, in South Tipperary at least, is the home assistance officer. It would be a very bad thing if that were allowed to continue. A home assistance officer has very little, if any, training. He is not a medical man, and I would not stand over the proposition that he should be able to override the decision of a medical officer; and I do not believe the Minister would stand over it either. I could understand, perhaps, people having a grievance against a man called Eichmann, but I hope and pray that we are not going to have any Eichmanns in this country. If we are, their activities should be nipped in the bud before they do any serious harm.

There is a great difference of opinion about medical cards. I would earnestly ask the Minister to give some more explanatory definition of persons who are entitled to cards. Nobody will tell me that a man earning £6 or £7 a week whose wife and children are, unfortunately, delicate and very often in need of medical attention, should be put on the same level as a man earning the same, perhaps, but with one or two children who are fortunate enough to be healthy and who have a healthy mother. There was a case recently of a poor woman, a hard-working, industrious woman, the wife of a hard-working, industrious man, who is delicate and some of whose family are delicate. They are not able to afford the good hospital treatment they desire. Again, we have the untrained mind, the home assistance officer, perhaps because of some sort of spleen or jealousy, refusing to serve people of that kind.

I ask the Minister to appoint as soon as he possibly can extra inspectors who will hasten to investigate cases of this kind. No matter what it costs, even if it means Supplementary Estimates, I say it is a thousand times better to meet those costs rather than that one poor person should die because of failure to receive hospital treatment through lack of money. There have been such cases, and I should be only too pleased to give particulars of them to the Minister. We know that the hospitals have taken on a new look and we can congratulate the staffs in the county hospitals that they are able to give to people desiring medical attention the specialist treatment to which they are fully entitled and which would have cost them so much prior to the advent of the county hospitals because it would have meant having to travel to the larger cities.

Deputy Sherwin talked—I would not say too much—about that terrible canker in our lives, cancer. I am sure the Minister and his staff and the medical profession throughout the country are doing all they can to eradicate this terrible disease which, up to now at least, has defied medical science. No money any State could give could be counted too much to try to find a remedy for this terrible disease. Statistics show how deadly it is, how prevalent it is and it is now taking priority on the death roll in this and many other countries in the world. It is true that people should be more careful and more anxious about a certain state of health which may develop with them, and thereby help our local medical officers. If at all possible they should have that type of X-ray which will show that terrible canker in its true light at a very early stage. I am certain that, if the Minister so decides, this House will never refuse to make sufficient funds available to fight that terrible disease.

I suggested that inspectors should be appointed to investigate cases of appeal against admission to hospitals. I should also like part of their function to be to act as appeals officers where people are refused home assistance. There is no appeal I know of, once the almighty, powerful home assistance officer decides that so-and-so must die of hunger rather than upset his eqilibrium or his weekly paysheet. As far as I know, there is no appeal from this almighty tribunal known as the home assistance officer. As often as not, they are untrained minds and they should at least be subject——

This does not arise on the Health Estimate. It would relevantly arise on another Estimate.

It is serious if people die from hunger.

The Deputy is discussing the question of home assistance officers.

I shall have a further opportunity to speak on this. I would ask the Minister to take if at all possible a more liberal interpretation of those who are entitled to be on the medical register and to be given medical cards. I know Deputy Sweetman would not be entitled to a medical card. Indeed, he looks much too strong to need it.

Much too strong to use it, even if he got it.

We have this despicable practice of medical cards being given to people and then, even though there is no improvement in income, the cards are demanded back by the local authorities and the county managers post haste. My advice to people has been, and it will continue to be, to hold tight if there has been no increase in income and let the county manager prove to the satisfaction of the Minister that there has been an increase which justifies the card being demanded back. There is a great deal of anxiety about cards. Were it not for the humanity of our doctors and their generosity in treating patients not blessed with these precious cards, we would have endless trouble in my constituency. In particular, in the mining district of Slieveardagh the medical officer has been most conscientious; he has never refused medical treatment or advice, and I am certain he never will. I appeal to the Minister to consider these points. Perhaps some good may ensue.

I think one of the best cases made in the House to-day for the abolition of the degrading means test was made by Deputy Davern without his realising it. He suggested that no matter what the cost, no matter how many Supplementary Estimates had to be introduced, we should be anxious to make all the necessary money available rather than see any person deprived of medical treatment. He argued that where home assistance officers are rather harsh in their investigations the Minister should appoint yet another horde of inspectors to ensure that these home assistance officers will be more liberal in their interpretation of the regulations under the poor laws or pauper laws. Rather than appoint another horde of inspectors, would it not be an infinitely more satisfactory proposition to make that money available for the purpose of providing better health services?

I have sat here listening since half past ten this morning, and every Deputy who spoke—they were all, with the exception of Deputy Dr. Browne, in favour of the type of health services we have—had criticism to offer of the medical card system. Some felt the ceiling ought to be raised. Others wanted the ceiling in regard to the middle income group raised. All were dissatisfied and all put their own interpretation on what the respective ceilings should be. It is rather extraordinary that so much time should be consumed with this obsession as to whether the ceiling should be £800 or £850 in the case of the middle income group or whether £6. 10s. or £6. 15s. per week should be the minimum for the issue of a medical card to a worker or small farmer. On another occasion here, I pointed out to the Minister that the cost of administering this degrading means test should in itself be sufficient to make the test undesirable.

A number of Deputies spoke about the administration of the Health Act and seemed to think that in general it is working in a satisfactory manner. I think such speakers just have not got their ears to the ground. I do not believe they appreciate the hardships imposed on people all over the country. I do not believe they realise the utter inadequacy of the services provided. In a motion in this House some months ago the Minister suggested that the majority of our people now have a health service available to them and the question of hardship with regard to payment does not arise. He further suggested that, if hardship does arise in specific cases, the machinery is available to local authorities and county managers to ease the burden and alleviate the worry that possesses people faced with big hospital bills.

I put a number of cases to the county manager in my constituency and, in so far as the county manager is concerned, he is very anxious to stretch the law so that the utmost assistance will be given. But that stretching of the law by the county manager in Roscommon, or in any other county for that matter, is not enough. I believe the Act should be scrapped, but I do not see much hope of that so long as the present Minister remains as the ministerial head of the Department of Health.

It is significant that in the course of his opening statement he appears to have at last begun to realise that the system is not good and that the services are not what he thinks they should be at the end of five years. At the close of his period in office he is now apparently prepared to consider one very important development, namely, giving a choice of doctor to what are described as dispensary patients. For years Deputies have been advocating that in this House, but, up to the present, the Minister has turned a deaf ear to all the appeals made to him. Now, six months perhaps before a general election, he casually drops a hint in the course of his speech that the question is one that should be considered and will be considered by the Government.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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