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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 1961

Vol. 190 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1961 — Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following amendment:
4. Before section 12, but in Part I, to insert a new section as follows:
"In connection with any assessment for liability for income tax, where a person proves that he has incurred expenditure by way of fares paid on public transport in travelling between his normal residence and the place where the income is earned, he shall, subject to a maximum of fifty-two pounds in any one year, be allowed such expenditure as an expense wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred by him in earning such income."— (Deputies P. Byrne, Cosgrave and Ryan.)

Not very much more can be said on this amendment. I think we have already made the case. It is a most reasonable, restricted and conservative one, and I think we are entitled to ask the Minister to accept it. Last night, the Minister posed a fair question in regard to this series of amendments and asked whether or not it was better to introduce reliefs in the manner advocated here as an alternative to a reduction in the standard rate of income-tax. I believe that the greatest need in tax reform at present is to provide more relief for the individual taxpayer. It is significant that the reduction in the standard rate means more to the big taxpayer than to the small one. It means more to the corporation with profits of £50,000 a year than it does to the family man.

If one takes the case of a married man with two children with an income of £1,000 a year, he is gaining less by the reduction in the tax rate proposed by the Minister this year—the reduction of 8d. in the standard rate—than he would have gained by an increase in the child allowance of £10, and £10 is a very minor increase in the rate of child allowance. The reduction in the standard rate applies to all taxpayers, to the person with unearned dividend income, to the large corporation, to the big property owner.

Therefore, the answer to the Minister's query as to what is the right course of action to adopt is, to my mind, that the larger need is for relief for the individual, particularly for the wage and salary earner, those taxed in full for every 20/- in the £ of their taxable income who have no reliefs such as business people have. That is a matter we shall touch upon in a later amendment.

Last night, the Minister gave the total figure of costs in respect of the various amendments. Could he break that down, please?

I gave just a very rough estimate. I could not.

I suppose it would not be fair to say the Minister was just "chancing his arm" on them?

I was giving my own estimate.

The Minister's own guess?

To be taken, therefore, as a personal guess and not a guess from his right?

I think the amount involved in this amendment would be very small. It would also, I presume, probably have the effect of taking certain people at the bottom of the scale out of the tax bracket altogether. The Minister is aware that the cost of collection in relation to the taxpayer at the bottom of the scale is proportionately very much higher than that for those further up. I shall not deny, of course, that there possibly is, on the other side of the scale, a social argument to be made. But, regardless of all that, I am inclined to think that the real case to be made here is not entirely on the taxation end, but that it is good social policy to try to get our workers living outside the centres of our cities. Otherwise, the congestion and difficulty which will arise in obtaining sites in or near the centres of our cities will be very substantial.

The effect of this amendment is that there would not be the same pressure in certain respects on insisting that all new working class building schemes be very near the centre of our cities. I am inclined to the view that we are going to meet very considerable difficulties in Dublin, and I think they say the same thing in Cork. Only recently, we saw Cork Corporation having to apply to take further land into the corporation area from the county council. Judging by the reaction of certain Deputies here, that seems to have provoked a rather bitter war between the corporation and the county council. The trend should be the other way.

One of the ways in which the Minister could influence the trend is by acceding to this amendment, if the cost is not going to be quite prohibitive and I do not think the cost should be as prohibitive as all that. Certainly, I am prepared to maintain that the cost will not be so prohibitive until the Minister gives me an official guess, apart from a personal guess, as to the cost. So long as the Minister is merely guessing personally at the cost, his guess is, perhaps, as good as mine. If he is prepared to give me an estimate of the cost, then I might have to review my views if that estimate shows the cost was too great as compared with the benefit involved.

I said it was possible, and indeed probable, that it would be equal to a reduction of 6d. in the standard rate, particularly from the point of view of the amendment with regard to medical expenses and the amendment with regard to the definition of expenses. That amendment might cost a huge sum. Taking them together, it might amount to 6d. in the £. I think it would be much better, if we have the finance at our disposal, to make a reduction of 6d. in the £ because one would then benefit the man who had to meet medical expenses, the man who had to meet travelling expenses, the man who had to meet professional expenses, and so on.

The income tax code must be fairly simple. I admit it is not simple enough at the moment, but to make it more complicated would be a great mistake. If all the Schedule E taxpayers were to get a reduction of 10/- a week—this amendment would allow of a reduction of up to £1—that would amount to about £750,000. It might be argued that they all want the benefit of this. Suppose only half benefited, that would be £375,000. I am not resisting now on the grounds of cost but because it is a bad principle to adopt.

I do not question the calculations. We had some discussion last night in relation to the total amount raised under Schedule E. Including P.A.Y.E., I think it is £8,000,000 or £9,000,000. There are about 180,000 taxpayers.

For the purposes of this calculation, I am taking 150,000.

The Minister says it would cost £750,000. He must have regard to the fact that in 1960/61 as compared with the previous year there was an increase of £2,000,000 in tax collected from Schedule E. taxpayers, wage earners and salary earners.

It was a year fruitful of arrears.

A great deal of the arrears had been caught up before the beginning of P.A.Y.E. Can the Minister say—it is relevant to his figures— whether he believes that the carry-forward of outstanding tax under P.A.Y.E. is considerably less than the arrears that were cleared up before P.A.Y.E. came into operation?

I do not think there was tax outstanding. It was returns from employers that were outstanding.

Surely the employers pay their tax with their returns.

No. It is a matter of the calculation. We have not got the number of employees, and so on.

In other words, there is no substantial time-lag of actual remittances. How would 75,000 taxpayers —half of 150,000—produce £375,000?

I took 10/- a week and exempted them to the extent of 10/- a week on the average. That would mean £25 a year, and the tax on that would be £5 per year. If you take 150,000 and multiply by five you get £750,000. Take half that again.

A great many of them would be marginal cases. That is why the Minister has taken half.

Is the amendment withdrawn?

Question—"That the proposed new section be inserted" put and declared lost.
NEW SECTION.

The Minister says it No. 5:

Before section 12, but in Part I, to insert a new section as follows:—

"In connection with any assessment for liability for income tax, where a person proves that he has incurred expenditure by way of fees paid to an educational establishment for the instruction of his child, step-child or legally adopted child there shall be deducted from the income to be assessed the expenses so incurred subject to a maximum deduction of £50 in respect of each child and provided that the child is not entitled in his own right to an income in excess of sixty pounds per year."

The purpose of this amendment is to provide relief in respect of fees paid to an educational establishment subject to a maximum of £50 in respect of each child and provided the child has not got an income of his or her own in excess of £60 per year. The tax allowance in relation to a child now stands at £120 per year. What is the purpose of the allowance? What is the purpose of any personal allowance? Is there any theory governing allowances? Are they intended to cover certain specified outgoings or expenses? It is not laid down in our tax code, but I think it is accepted that the personal allowance and the allowance granted for a child are intended to provide minimum subsistence needs on the principle that there is no taxable income until subsistence has been provided for. In scaling the figure of £120 as being the appropriate figure at which to provide a child allowance, is it the official mind of the Minister and his Department that this figure includes educational fees? Is there any science to the calculation? I suppose the answer is that there is not. The time has come when we should consider fundamental principles in relation to all of these allowances. Indeed, it might be a very good thing if the Minister would ask the Income Tax Commission now sitting to look into that matter.

Ours is a country with very few natural sources of wealth. Our primary source of wealth is the brainpower of our people. Irish brains are second to none, if properly developed. There has been since the end of the war a growing demand for educational services in this country and throughout Europe. There are now 2½ times as many children undergoing secondary education as there were 10 or 12 years ago. In many forms and in a variety of ways the tax code provides encouragement for capital investment. There can be no more productive form of capital investment than investment in education. In that connection it is interesting that recently in Germany economists have decided that the one really significant factor which contributed more than any other to the fantastic recovery of the German economy since the war has been the high standard of general education in that country. Education is coming to be regarded as one of the prime factors in production.

It is appropriate that the tax code should recognise the fact that investment in education is as sound a capital investment as the purchase of a machine by a businessman or the re-equipment of industry by an industrialist. In this connection it is desirable that regard should be had to the fact that in this country little State aid is provided for education. We were discussing that matter on the Vote for the Department of Education last week. There would appear to be very little prospect in the foreseeable future of prevailing on the Minister for Education to provide capital grants for the extension of educational services. That, of course, is another day's work, but it is a factor which should be taken into account.

School fees here are very high and have increased very considerably in recent years. This amendment provides for a maximum deduction in respect of education of £50 per child, so that it is reasonable and restrictive. We are not asking or suggesting that the school fees paid to any of the snob schools should be recognised as deductible for income tax purposes, but merely that the minimum rates normally charged for reasonable educational services by secondary schools should be so charged.

In connection with university fees, it is of course true that £120 is allowed under the tax code in respect of any child over 16 years of age who is continuing in full time education. Particularly in regard to children attending at a university, it is necessary to ask ourselves is £120 per year a reasonable estimate of the expenses of a university student, including subsistence in addition to educational fees? Of course, it is not. Even in U.C.D., the institution with which most of us would be familiar, fees have increased tremendously in the past 10 years. For example, the annual fee for a course in the faculty of Arts and Commerce, which 12 years ago was £20, is now £50. In addition, students' digs are now much more expensive than they used to be. In some faculties in U.C.D. the academic fees alone amount to £75 and £80 a year and that does not cover examination fees, hospital fees and other extras which arise in the case of medical students and students in other faculties also.

Ours is a country which has a high and proud tradition in the matter of education. Our people have always put a premium on education. The average parent who is sending his son or daughter to a university usually makes great sacrifices to do so. He is a person who is most deserving of sympathetic treatment and encouragement in all his endeavours and it is very desirable that encouragement should be provided to him.

The Minister can rightly say that only a year ago he increased the child allowance from £100 to £120, and that it remained at £85 from 1954 to 1960. I do not know what the cost involved in this amendment would be. If it seems exorbitant and if the Minister is in any way favourably disposed towards the principle which we are advocating, I would suggest to him that he should have a look at the allowances granted in Britain, which are on a sliding scale. It is a graduated children's allowance, graduated to the age of the child and providing an increased rate of allowance for a child of 16 years who is engaged in full time educational pursuits. I think they call it the three-tier allowance and it is a principle which we should reproduce here. I suspect the Minister will repeat the argument which he made a few moments ago that he prefers to reduce the standard rate of tax. That is a very good thing to do and I know it is easy to advocate reforms and to bring in amendments but we are doing this in a constructive spirit to try to indicate the lines upon which we believe the tax reform should be instituted.

For my part, I believe that a major need in our tax code is to provide more relief for the individual and the family man. As I said last night, and I have no hesitation about repeating it, I believe that for the moment industry has received enough by way of tax concessions and until an instalment of equity and justice is given to the individual taxpayer, and, in particular to the family man, we should not consider giving any further major concessions to industrial taxpayers.

These personal allowances are not, of course, geared to actual expenditure. They are calculated to help a man to keep his wife and, if he has children, to keep them, but what the cost of keeping a wife or a child is was never measured exactly. They are merely a way of grading taxation on the family man and on the single man. When a taxpayer gets these allowances, he pays his tax and is free to spend whatever he has on food, clothes, education or whatever it may be. We cannot get down to every single little item and try to compensate him for the various things mentioned here.

If this amendment were to be accepted, I do not think we could stop at this point. It would be soon pointed out that a person was sending his boy to a boarding school and paying a fairly substantial fee and that the boy was boarded out. Another might send his boy to a day school and he would have a very equitable claim to get two allowances for boarding the boy as well as paying the fees. It would inevitably lead to a demand to have this £50 increased. I do not know what the cost would be but it would be fairly substantial. The allowance for a child was increased in 1960 from £100 to £120 and it was, of course, extended to take in apprenticed children in 1959.

The Deputy gave the figures for England, where they are graduated and start at £100 for younger children and go up to £150 for children being educated. It may be a good system. At the time I put the last proposal before the Government for increasing children allowances, I did put the alternative of leaving the young child at £100 and increasing the allowance for the other, which would have cost less but on the whole we thought it better to give the increase all round.

Although the older children may be costing more when they are going to schools where the fees are high, the younger child costs a good deal, too, and there is not much of a case for making a distinction between them. It is fairer on the whole to have the same allowance all round. I should also like to remind the Deputy that, in Britain, the children's allowances paid under social welfare are taxable but they are not taxable here, so that there is slight advantage here over the British system of children's allowances and therefore on the whole I am opposed to this amendment.

In regard to the Minister's point of the difficulty of looking at every single item of expense which the taxpayer incurs, under Schedule D, the inspector of taxes looks at every single item of expense the taxpayer incurs, and insists on accounts being submitted so that he can scrutinise them. In regard to children in boarding schools, there is no doubt that when a child goes to a boarding school there is a considerable saving in regard to some expenses so far as the basic children's allowance covers his subsistence in his own home and the necessity for that no longer arises. If a parent is paying £200 a year to send his child to one of the snob schools which cater for the rich and the thick—and for whom I am not looking for any particular concession here—he is doing so by his own choice. Such children would not necessarily obtain a better or superior education and he would have no grounds whatever for complaining about the allowance being restricted to £50 a year.

I am interested to hear that a year ago the Minister did have a look at the British system of graduated children's allowances and I would ask him to have a second look at that principle and perhaps ask the Income Tax Commission to report on the desirability of extending that principle to this country.

Certainly I will have a look at the British scheme but I think I would be right in saying that if we adopted the system, while it would cost less than our own system, the administrative expenses would be higher. There is no doubt about that.

Is amendment No. 5 being withdrawn?

Amendment put and declared lost.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 6:

Before section 12, but in Part I, to insert a new section as follows:—

"Rule 9 of the Rules applicable to Schedule E contained in the Income Tax Act, 1918 is hereby amended by the substitution of ‘reasonably to incur expenditure for the appropriate performance' for ‘to expend money, wholly, exclusively and necessarily in the performance'."

We had some considerable discussions about this matter on an earlier Finance Bill and the more I think of it, the more I feel that I am not absolutely happy about the position as it is at present. When we were discussing this question then, we understood, accepted and appreciated the difference that exists in the phraseology in respect of the expenses allowable for persons assessed under Schedule E as compared with persons assessed under Schedule D. That means, of course, that there is a different law for a person who is employed by another from the law for the person who employs himself in relation to a claim for expenses for purposes of income tax assessment. The case made by the Minister at the time was that the person under Schedule D would determine much more for himself having regard to the balance of profit from his business and that the cost was primarily on him and, in addition, that when bearing that cost himself, it was proper that he should be the judge in a loose way of what expenses were necessary for the business.

I do not want to suggest at all that in relation to the assessment of these allowances the Revenue approach is niggardly. My experience is that it is not. Having regard, but only having regard, to the phraseology of the statute under which they are acting, that statute is restrictive beyond question. Let me say at once that so far as the question of the cost of this amendment is concerned, it would depend to a very large extent on the phraseology used. For reasons which I shall give in a few minutes, I have deliberately chosen phraseology analogous to that which was recommended in the British Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income. The final report of that Commission was published in June, 1955, I think. The reference is CMD 9474.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of whether the existing rule is fair or unfair, it is an undoubted fact that there is a very strong feeling abroad that it is a most rigorous and unfairly restrictive rule. I am sure the Minister has met that opinion in his experience as a Deputy, quite apart from his experience as Minister. I am sure he has met it in relation to problems about which his constituents come to see him who have the necessity to incur expenses from the point of view of carrying out their job in a reasonable way.

We all know that employees, if they are to do their job properly, must on occasion take into account that if they happen to meet a customer of their firm outside the door of a licensed premises, they will be regarded as extremely mean if they do not suggest that he should come in and have a drink, even though it may not be necessary in regard to their actual job that they should make that suggestion. But it is, as we all know, standard practice and it would be regarded as mean and not in the least calculated to promote good relations, if expenses to that mild degree were not met from time to time.

The existing wording of Rule 9 is so restrictive that it does not take into account the expenses employees have to incur in a variety of cases. So far as I am aware—I speak subject to correction and I should be grateful to the Minister if he will correct me if I am wrong—there is no statutory relaxation in any way of the Rule 9 provision as between this country and Great Britain. So far as I am aware the Rule 9 provision operates in exactly the same way here as it operates across the water. I am not going to offer an opinion as to whether the gentlemen who operate the Rule here are more or less humane than their counterparts on the other side of the sea. I have experience only of the ones here and I am not making the case at all that their interpretation is unfair. I am making the case that the statute governs their interpretation in an unfair manner.

When the Royal Commission to which I have referred were dealing with this matter on the other side, they made recommendations in a series of paragraphs, some of which are so apposite to the problem as I see it in Ireland that they are worth quoting. Paragraph 129 reads:

It seems to be the general impression that the Rule governing the deduction of expenses in respect of offices or employments, under Schedule E is too narrow. It will be convenient to refer to it by its old name as Rule 9. We had before us a great many representations complaining of the operation of the Rule in various respects, to which we gave our careful attention. In making these criticisms our witnesses were doing no more than apply to their own particular circumstances the substance of a series of comments which have been made by Courts of law during the last thirty years. There can have been no part of the income tax code which has been so regularly the subject of unfavourable notice.

May I stress that last sentence? For a Commission solemnly sitting in relation to the whole gamut of taxation on profits and income to say categorically that there can have been no part of the income tax code which has been so regularly the subject of unfavourable notice is a very striking commentary.

They go on to say in paragraph 130:

Rule 9 has been variously described as "jealously restricted", "strictly limited", and "a very narrow and strict rule". Its words are said to be "notoriously narrow in their application" and "notoriously rigid, narrow and resticted in their operation...stringent and exacting." Nor has judicious sympathy been withheld from those to whom the "very strict words laid down in Rule 9" have been applied.

One of the judges in question made these comments:

This case raises a question of hardship. I may go further and say the position really is unreasonable... A great number of these cases have produced, in my judgment, extremely hard results ... a ...rule ... which undoubtedly causes a considerable amount of hardship when applied to particular cases.

That the "position really is unreasonable" is a commentary that frankly requires considerable explanation from the official point of view.

There was another Committee in England in 1936 which considered the codification of certain income tax laws and their reference to this section was "the extreme rigour of the existing law". It is fair enough to say that even though these criticisms have been made all along the line, nothing was done about it at all. I am not aware as to why exactly that was so but the difficulty that has arisen in the strictness of its application is that perhaps, in a very large industrial country such as England, there are so many facets that it would be impossible to alter it in the easy way in which it could be altered in a small country such as ours and particularly one which does not have the same type of industrial employment.

There must clearly be some statutory principle, some statutory guide, by which to judge whether expenses are proper to be incurred or not. It would, of course, be quite unreasonable to provide that the employee himself be the sole judge of what expenses he should or should not incur and by incurring them, claim deductions for income tax purposes. At the same time, I think that the obligement in the existing rule which lays down that the guiding course to be steered is that the person concerned will be asked if he does not incur the expenses is far too rigorous.

An employee's duty can be performed in two ways—willingly or grudgingly. This rule is based entirely in its phraseology on the old conception that an employee does his work only grudgingly and that it is only the very bare minima he is bound to do under pain of dismissal he will do. I do not think that is a fair and just presentation at all of the approach of the vast majority of employees at present.

I am not going to weary the House by going over all the arguments put forward in that Commission's report but they consider, first of all, whether the alternative solution was to have exactly the same rule for Schedule D as for Schedule E. Having rejected that, they then, in paragraph 140, came to the conclusion that the best solution was to recommend the rewording of Rule 9 on less restricted lines than at present. The wording they suggested would allow the deduction of "all expenses reasonably incurred for the appropriate performance of the duties of the office or employment."

We have just merely turned that around here because so far as our phraseology is concerned, the verbs are at the beginning rather than at the end. We believe that our suggestion would give a more liberal form of allowance to employees to ensure that the employee who was genuinely making an effort in certain respects to assist his employer, quite apart from making an effort to improve himself, would be, in consequence, enabled to claim.

It is not, for example, laid down in the contract of employment of an assistant solicitor that he will keep himself abreast of the law in respect of the particular side which he is carrying on for his employer but everybody appreciates and understands that you cannot do a job like that, unless you do make an effort to keep abreast of the law in that respect, but it is not necessary to incur expenses in regard to it, although it certainly is desirable and certainly is designed to increase efficiency, but yet, as I understand the situation, expenditure incurred for that purpose, because it is not actual expenditure that must be incurred under pain of dismissal, is not allowable as the law stands at present.

One could go through the various facets of our employees and produce a great many examples but I do not think there is any necessity to do so. I think everybody who is aware of the problem knows all the cases that have been met and realises that in relation to those cases, there is undoubtedly something that is not quite fair in the rigidity of the existing statute.

Again, the Minister may say that on the phraseology here, the cost would be very large. I do not think so. If it were very large it is one that could be met by a relaxation of the existing rule in the direction we have in mind. If we could not get the full amount of it, it certainly is a case that needs to be considered away and apart from any question of the standard rate to which the Minister refers. It is a case I have never heard fully argued out from the point of view of adhering to the existing rule which is certainly not at all in accord with modern times and not in accord with the spirit of willingness and anxiety to further the interests of the employer which is, thank goodness, abroad in the type of person to whom such a rule refers. If it were not abroad we would have a poor outlook as a nation. I think the Minister should lend his quota to acceptance and understanding and appreciation of that spirit that is abroad at the moment.

This amendment relates to Rule 9 of the rules applicable to Schedule E in the Income Tax Act of 1918—a British Act, of course. It is in fact intact in the 1918 Act from the earlier Income Tax Act of 1853. I am not sure if it goes back any earlier than 1853; it may very well do so. But I know for a fact that its present wording in our tax code is exactly as it was laid down in the Income Tax Act, 1953. Even its very verbiage is hopelessly old fashioned and archaic.

It is a Rule which provides for, amongst other things, the keeping and maintaining of a horse to enable an employee to perform his duties, as if it were one of the major expenses which he had to incur. It is a very good example of that type of archaic provision which is crying out for reform in this country.

These rules which determine what expenses may be allowed against receipts for determining taxable income are of fundamental importance. They are important because they affect the yield of revenue. They are important in the relative sense in so far as equity demands that taxpayers with comparable incomes should receive comparable treatment for tax purposes.

It is an old maxim that equity is a stranger to income tax. I do not know who first said that but I suggest it is a maxim which we should repudiate entirely in this country. There is a very grave social and moral obligation upon us to endeavour to make our tax code as equitable as we can. That obligation may not have been a very strong one in years gone by. Even up to 15 or 20 years ago very few people paid income tax. There was no crying need for reform of these archaic provisions in times gone by because so very few people were affected.

In addition, I think this Rule is defective right from the days it was first laid down. In Britain, certain disquiet was expressed about it. It is a very significant fact in regard to much of the clamour about income tax in Britain in its early days that the critics were quietened by the assurance that income tax was only a temporary tax which, of course, has long ceased to be the case.

Deputy Sweetman has quoted some of the strictures passed on this Rule by learned judges in court. As he said, no section of the income tax code has been more strongly criticised. It has actually been described as unreasonable and unjust. It has been held that it raised questions of hardship and inequity.

The Minister can say that notwithstanding the recommendations of the Royal Commission in Britain in 1955, the British Chancellor has not effected the reform which the Royal Commission recommended. I hold that that is not at all a valid argument in this country. I do not know why the British Chancellor has not accepted his Commission's recommendations and I do not care. The simple fact of the matter is that in this country there is a far graver obligation upon us to do justice to the Schedule E taxpayer, to the wage-earner and the salary-earner than there is in Britain. We are relying on the wage-earner and the salary-earner to a far greater extent, relatively speaking, than the British Chancellor for tax revenue. Eighty per cent. of our taxpayers are wage-earners and salary-earners. Since the introduction of P.A.Y.E., their number is increasing considerably.

I think it should be enough to point out to the Minister what the Royal Commission has said about this Rule, to point out to him the need for applying that recommendation to Irish conditions. It should not be necessary either for Deputy Sweetman or myself to go in to very much detail in advocating this cause. It is rather a technical matter.

I would recommend the Minister, if he has not already done so, to read what the Royal Commission have to say about it. He should make inquiries about cases of inequity which have arisen in this country. It is completely unreal to draw a distinction, as this Rule does, between those expenses which an employee is obliged to incur in the physical performance of his duties — I emphasise the word "physical"—and what it is desirable he should be able to do in order to perform his duties. The interpretation placed by the courts on this Rule is an extremely rigid and narrow one, even allowing for the fact that the Rule itself is a narrow one. The Rule draws a very unreal distinction between the type of expenditure which one is obliged to incur and the type of expenditure which it is desirable one should incur in order to be able to carry out the duties of one's office or employment.

The Rule specifies that those expenses which one is obliged to incur wholly, exclusively and necessarily in the performance of one's duties are the only expenses which may be deducted from the emoluments of a wage earner or a salary earner. It is a fact that expenses may be necessary to one in the performance of one's duties, without being exclusively incurred for the performance of those duties. They may be exclusively incurred in the performance but not wholly referable to the performance of those duties.

The contrast between the treatment meted out in this respect to the wage earner and salary earner under Schedule E and that given to the business person under Schedule D, is particularly marked. The Rule under Schedule D is more liberal. I am not suggesting that it would be a good thing to liberalise the Schedule E Rule to the same extent as the Schedule D Rule, and our amendment does not open the door to fantastic and outlandish expenses. Our amendment is a very conservative one. It is the amendment recommended by the Royal Commission. The Royal Commission, before deciding on that wording, had considered various other means of catering for this need and had rejected them. It does not mean, for example, that the employers' individual choice is the test of an allowable expense. Under our amendment, the revenue authorities would have the protection, which they have not got under Schedule D, of the condition that the expense must be reasonably directed to its purpose.

One could provide examples of the type of expense which is disallowed under the existing Rule and which is allowed under Schedule D to a person in comparable employment. The best example I can give is that of a professional person employed, say, as an architect or an engineer in the Board of Works who cannot even claim as an allowable expense his subscription to his professional association, notwithstanding the fact that if he ceases to pay that professional subscription, he will be struck off the professional register and will cease to be a professional man. However, we are providing specifically for that aspect in amendment No. 7.

It was slightly incorrect for Deputy Sweetman to say that the British Chancellor has done nothing at all about reform in this respect. He at least brought in a provision allowing for the expense of professional subscriptions for professional persons. That is in Section 16 of the British Act, 1958. There is an increasing tendency for professional people in this country to go into employment. This is an age of managerial revolution and there is developing a new managerial class of professional persons who are in fact employees. It is futile to argue that such persons are not compelled to keep at the peak of their profession in the academic sense, that there is no need for them to expend moneys on professional journals, books, instruments and so on. They are a class of persons who are particularly deserving of consideration.

The kernel of our case here is that there is a very grave need to provide equity for wage and salary earners in our tax code, equity which is at present denied to them. The contrast in many ways between the taxation under Schedule D and that under Schedule E is very marked. Many wage earners and salary earners labour under a sense of grievance. They feel it is inequitable that their employers should be compelled to act as taxpayers, because they have no way out of the tax net as have some business people. We may as well face up to that. The employee cannot resort to the legal avoidance or evasion of tax. Many persons taxed under P.A.Y.E. have this sense of grievance. They believe, rightly or wrongly—and I am not expressing an opinion on that —that other sections of the community pay less tax on comparable incomes. I would urge the Minister to discredit this old maxim that equity is a stranger to income tax and should resolve to provide equitable treatment for all our taxpayers, but in particular for those who are taxed under Schedule E.

I think everyone agrees there is justification for a difference in treating expenses under Schedule D and Schedule E. The Schedule D taxpayer must go out and look for business and try to build up profits for himself. If he increases expenses, it is for the purpose of earning more or making bigger profits and the case is therefore fairly clear that expenses should be allowed.

In the case of the Schedule E taxpayer, he is engaged to perform duties for somebody else. His field of activities is very well defined and very limited and he will get his remuneration so long as he performs his duties. It is no part of his duty to expand the business he is working in by spending money for that purpose. Therefore, on general principle, it must be admitted the only expenses he should be allowed would be those he must incur in order to keep his job. On that basis, the definition appears to be all right, "wholly, exclusively and necessarily." If a Schedule E taxpayer claims expenses not wholly expended on his job, nobody would argue he should get the whole lot.

He should get part of it.

The same would apply to "exclusively." The only dispute concerns "necessarily." What other word could we get? Deputy Byrne pointed out that these words are there since 1833. It is a long time, of course. His argument is that they are so long there that they should be changed. But I think the argument could be made the other way, too. They are so long there that it is fairly evident no good substitute could be found for them after 110 years. Even though the Royal Commission recommended a change, it is fairly evident that the British Government and the Revenue Commissioners have been unable to frame alternative words to meet the case. That is why they have done nothing about this Report from the Royal Commission.

Since the Royal Commission's Report has been quoted in favour of making this change, perhaps I might quote an opposing view. There was a recommendation of dissent to the Final Report by Mr. G. Woodcock, now Sir George Woodcock, Secretary of the T.U.C., Mr. H.L. Bullock and Mr. N. Kaldor. The words they used are—they were very blunt—that Rule 9 of Schedule E was "a powerful safeguard of good adminstration." That was their summing up.

Has the Minister got the page to hand?

I shall give it to the Deputy. This case was raised by Deputy Sweetman last year. We argued the case for some time and I think I said, as I am saying now, that this was a matter which should be considered by the Commission on Income Taxation, because they are considering this matter of allowances of various kinds. Deputy Sweetman was satisfied with that. My Private Secretary wrote afterwards to the Commission, conveying the Official Report, I think, but at least what was said on that occasion. Although I cannot say definitely, I presume they will report on this matter. But they may find it difficult, as it has been found difficult over the years, to provide alternative wording for these words that have been there for over a century.

I do not claim to know very much about the technical side of income tax, but, personally, I have never heard a very serious complaint with regard to the expenses for a Schedule E taxpayer. From time to time a complaint is heard, but it is never very serious. I have heard much more serious complaints in respect of expenses not being allowed, say, for the upkeep of a younger brother or sister. That appeared to me to be rather hard on the person concerned because it was a big matter and one which, from the human point of view the taxpayer could not avoid. That does not say, however, we should devote all our time to cases of that kind and not consider the particular cases made. I think the whole difficulty is to find the alternative words. That is why I would appeal again to the Deputies to await the report of the Income Tax Commission to see whether or not they, in their wisdom, suggest words that would be acceptable. Deputy Sweetman asked me for the page of the Royal Commission Report. It is page 393.

I have already found it. My recollection of the paragraph was entirely different from that of the Minister.

The only quotation I made was that it was "a powerful safeguard of good administration."

The Minister took one phrase out of the paragraph. I shall quote the whole paragraph. It says:

In our view if the Schedule E expenses rule were relaxed the same problems which now beset Schedule D assessment would be reproduced in the case of Schedule E—new avenues would be opened for tax avoidance and for disputes between the Revenue and the taxpayer—with little, if any, net gain in equity, as between one Schedule E taxpayer and another. We do not support therefore the change in wording of the Schedule E expenses rule recommended by the Majority, a change which in our opinion does not go nearly far enough to remove the difference between the two conceptions of income...

That is somewhat different from the portion the Minister quoted. My recollection of the Minority Report was that the alteration would not be sufficient on its own. It was because it was not sufficient on its own that it was going to create difficulty in administration. I do not think it is fair for the Minister to ignore that and to quote these three learned gentlemen. Mr. Kaldor's forte was tax on expenditure. While it was a wonderful theoretical scheme, it would require 2,500,00 people to administer it and collect the tax from the other 500,000 who would be left in the country. The Minority Report does not come down quite so flat-footedly as the Minister seems to think.

I just want to point out to the Minister that the Minority Report to which he referred went on to recommend a differential rate of income tax for the wage-earner and the salary earner. It went on to recommend a lower rate of tax for the wage-earner and the salary earner because of this difference in treatment. If the Minister opened that particular door, I think he would have cause to regret his decision.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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