Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Jul 1961

Vol. 191 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 40—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moran)

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £1,634,400 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1962, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (No. 13 of 1946 and No. 6 of 1956) including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

The gross Estimate for Forestry for 1961/62, at £2,929,400, is practically the same as the gross Estimate for the previous year. A substantial increase in the allowance for Appropriations-in-Aid, however, reduces the net draw on the Exchequer by £179,300, giving a net requirement of £2,387,400.

Before I go on to deal in detail with the subheads of special interest to the House—Subhead C.1—Acquisition of Land, Subhead C.2—Forest Development and Management, Subhead G— Appropriations-in-Aid and Subhead D —Grants for Afforestation Purposes— I propose to refer briefly to the other subheads of the Vote.

Subhead A — Salaries, Wages and Allowances — shows an increase of £24,675 on the provision for 1960/61; this is attributable to essential increases in inspectorate, engineering, forester and indoor staff and to normal incremental progressions.

Subhead B — Travelling and Incidental Expenses—shows an increase of £5,600 on the provision for 1960/61. Of this, £4,000 is to cover extra expenditure on travelling and subsistence allowances, an inevitable feature in an expanding service. An additional £1,000 is provided for advertising and publicity and the remaining £600 represents a non-recurring item in connection with educational exhibits at provincial shows.

Subhead C.3—Sawmilling—is lower by £4,300. This subhead provides for the operation of the Department's fixed sawmills at Cong and Dundrum. Provision for labour in the sawmills, at £15,500, is up by £2,000 compared with the previous year; the decrease on the subhead as a whole is due to the non-recurrence of provision for the purchase of additional equipment and for the carrying out of certain structural works at the sawmills.

The provision for Forestry Education—Subhead E—is up by £5,085. It is expected that in the current year there will be an average of 92 trainee foresters undergoing instruction at the Department's two training establishments.

Deputies will note that there is a special item of £5,000 included in this subhead for expenditure expected to be incurred this year on the reconstruction of Avondale House as a forestry training centre. A sum of £20,000 has been allocated for this work from the American Grant Counterpart Reserve Fund and provision is being made in the Appropriations-in-Aid subhead for the recoupment to the Forestry Vote of the amount expected to be spent in the year. Detailed plans for the work have been prepared by the Office of Public Works and it will be undertaken under the supervision of that office. The main architectural features of the house will be preserved. Avondale House, the old Parnell home, was the cradle of Irish forestry. When reconstructed, it will provide a suitable centre for short-term refresher and specialised courses for our forest technical staff, a very necessary development in this age of specialisation. It is very fitting that Avondale should again come to play an active role in Irish forestry.

Sub-head F—Agency, Advisory and Special Services—is down by £1,560. Provision is being made under this subhead for continued engagement of the services of a firm of industrial consultants for part of the year in connection with the incentive bonus scheme for forestry workers and allied matters and also for the re-engagement for some months of a consulting engineer to advise on road and bridge construction problems.

Turning now to the more significant parts of the Estimate, Deputies will note that the Grant-in-Aid provision for land acquisition (Subhead C.1) is £130,000, £55,000 lower than the provision for 1960/61. This reduced provision does not reflect any intention to slow down the tempo of land acquisition; on the contrary, it is intended to accelerate acquisition to the highest possible level in the current year. The reduction in the provision is, however, justified by the fact that there was a substantial balance of £108,000 in the Grant-in-Aid Fund on 31st March. 1961, and this, with the new grant or £130,000 sought, will give a total of £238,000 available for the acquisition of land in the current year.

Last year, a gross total area of 29,169 acres was acquired for State forestry purposes. This was the largest area ever acquired in a single year to date. The plantable content of the area acquired was in the region of 25,600 acres. The effective plantable reserve at the begining of 1960/61 was 48,000 acres. The total area planted in 1960/61 was 25,800 acres, of which an estimated 2,000 acres consisted of land previously classified as unplantable or woodland areas cleared for replanting. With the addition of the plantable area of 25,600 acres acquired in 1960/61, the effective reserve on 1st April, 1961, was 50,000 acres, an increase of 1,800 acres above the figure for the previous year.

This slight improvement in the plantable reserve position is very welcome but the reserve is still quite inadequate to permit of proper programme planning and, furthermore, the uneven distribution of the reserve over the country inevitably means that to meet a planting target of 25,000 acres over-large programmes have to be undertaken at some forests while at others it is not possible to maintain planting at an even level because of rapid exhaustion of land reserves.

A significant feature of land acquisition progress in 1960/61 was that the total productive area of 25,600 acres taken over was acquired in 504 separate transactions, giving an average of 51 acres per case. The downward trend in the average area of the individual lots acquired has been accentuated in the past two years. In 1959/60 a productive area of 23,323 acres was acquired in 346 transactions, giving an average of 67 acres whereas in 1958/59 a productive area of 25,244 acres was acquired in 339 transactions, yielding an average of 75 acres.

This drop in the average size of productive area acquired is partly attributable to a falling-off in the number of substantial blocks of land suitable for forestry development coming on offer and partly to the more welcome fact that State forestry operations are now so widespread throughout the country that the acquisition of smaller areas can be more favourably considered than formerly. The overall effect of the reduction in the average size of acquisitions, however, is that considerably more cases have to be dealt with to acquire any given area of land, thus adding to the difficulties being encountered in our constant efforts to bring the plantable reserve to an adequate level. It is encouraging that the year's work secured an overall increase in the area acquired, notwithstanding the sharp fall in the average area per transaction.

When I was introducing last year's Estimate I mentioned that the Statutory Regulations to deal with commonage and title difficulty cases under the provisions of the Forestry Act, 1956, had been made and that action had just been initiated in the first case to be dealt with under the new procedure, which involves the formal use of the compulsory acquisition machinery provided in the Forestry Act, 1946. Since then, progress has been made in several cases suitable for treatment in this way. The position at present is that acquisition orders have been made by the Land Commission in respect of a total of 2,514 acres, applications for acquisition orders in respect of 2,822 acres have been made and are awaiting hearing and applications are pending in respect of areas totalling 1,714 acres.

In addition, negotiations are in progress with the owners of areas totalling 6,324 acres with a view to the use of this new machinery to complete acquisition. The total area at various stages of progress under the new procedure is, therefore, 13,374 acres. Because of the complicated nature of the cases involved it would be unwise to expect spectacular results in the earlier stages of the use of the new procedure but once that procedure has been firmly established and initial difficulties overcome it will facilitate the acquisition of very substantial areas that might never have been acquired by voluntary purchase in the normal way.

Subhead C.2—Forest Development and Management—totals £2,248,400, an increase of £25,200 on the provision for the preceding year. From the details of the subhead given in Part III of the Estimate, it will be noted that provision is made for increased expenditure on all Heads except Head 3, that dealing with new roads and buildings.

Head 1—State Forest Nurseries— shows no significant change compared with last year. I should mention in connection with this Head that considerable progress has been achieved in carrying out the policy of establishing large-scale nurseries to replace small existing nursery units of uneconomic size. Seven large-scale nurseries have now been established and other areas are being considered for acquisition. The operation of these large-scale nursery units will greatly facilitate the meeting of the heavy demands for plants of the various species resulting from the substantial annual planting programme now being undertaken. The present programme requires the use of 40 million young trees a year, so that an efficient nursery service is vital.

The provision under Head 2— Establishment of Plantations—shows an increase of £20,600 over the 1960/61 level and the increase is attributable to enlarged provision for the purchase of fencing wire and manures for plantations.

This Head covers all expenditure on fencing, ground clearance, drainage and planting of land. Deputies will recall that the ultimate State planting target of 25,000 acres of new planting was achieved for the first time in 1959/ 60. I am glad to be able to tell the House that planting continued at this very high level in 1960/61. The total area of new plantations established in the year was 25,800 acres and by the end of the year the total planted area held by my Department had increased to 332,000 acres. It is of interest that the area planted was in fact the highest figure ever attained; with a programme of the order of 25,000 acres, the final outturn is liable to be 500 to a thousand acres up or down on the target.

Plans have been completed for the planting of an additional area of 25,000 acres in the current year. I think that our forestry service deserves credit for tackling a programme of this magnitude despite the difficulties in regard to the size and distribution of the plantable reserve to which I have referred previously. If, as I hope, these difficulties are overcome, I have every confidence that planting will continue at the rate of 25,000 acres a year.

When introducing the Forestry Estimate last year, I made particular mention of the great expansion in planting in the western counties which has become such a feature of forestry development in recent years. In 1960/61 a total of 11,000 acres, that is to say about 43 per cent., was planted in the western counties. In the current year the programme for the West will continue at the same high level. It is noteworthy that 48 per cent. of the total productive area acquired last year was situated in the western counties and that about 70 per cent. of all land now on offer to my Department is in the West. These figures are indicative of the tremendous potential for forestry development in the western areas where some 2,000 men are now regularly employed in the State forests. As our existing plantations in the West develop and more plantations are established Forestry will contribute more and more to the fund of productive employment in the Western counties.

The sum provided for labour under the Establishment of Plantations Head for 1961/62 is £410,000—representing over 80 per cent. of the entire provision under this head.

Head 3—New Roads and Buildings —shows a reduction of £46,500 on the provision for the previous year but the reduced provision is in fact substantially higher than the actual outturn of 1960/61. It had been hoped that the record achievement of 1959/60, when 201 miles of new forest roads were constructed, would be surpassed in 1960/61 and the Estimate was framed accordingly. In the event, however, the bad weather experienced last Summer led inevitably to a drastic curtailment in the road-construction programme. Preliminary work returns indicate that the total mileage of forest roads completed in the year was 147 miles, a substantial achievement in the circumstances but less than had been expected. The Estimate provision for 1961/62 is adequate to provide for the completion of 280 miles of road in the year, almost double last year's actual level. If this programme is satisfactorily accomplished the most pressing needs for extraction roads to serve the plantations will have been met.

A great deal has been done in the past few years to rationalise methods of road construction and with the specialist services of engineering and surveyor staff now available the Department is well-equipped to tackle the many difficult and complicated problems in relation to road and bridge construction that have to be faced in the rough terrain characteristic of our forest locations in most parts of the country.

The provision for road construction this year includes a sum of £265,000 for direct labour. The provision for the supply of road materials on contract is £170,000; the bulk of this sum is for the supply of stones and gravel to road-sites and it includes, therefore, a significant element for indirect employment provided by contractors. The provision for buildings in Head 3 is £25,000, compared with £20,500 in 1960/61.

Head 4—General Forest Management—is increased by £27,400. This is the biggest expenditure Head in the Vote, since it bears all the costs of maintenance and protection of the State plantations, including such work as cleaning of young plantations, repair of fences, drains and forest roads, construction of fire lines, pruning and so on. As the area of plantations increases the expenditure under this Head must increase correspondingly. Far more attention has been given to the maintenance and protection of plantations in recent years. Sound forest management is essential if the plantations are eventually to give the best possible yields of timber and I am glad to say that all management requirements are now being fully met and that the drive for new planting is in no way being permitted to detract from the attention that must be given to the plantations already established.

The bulk of the provision under this head is accounted for by labour— £723,000 or 97 per cent of the total of £747,600.

Head 5—Timber Conversion—is up by £3,000. £90,000 of the total provision of £103,000 is for labour. "Direct labour" felling by forestry workers is now almost entirely confined to felling for the purpose of meeting special orders, such as transmission poles for the E.S.B. or the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and to felling in areas being thinned for the first time or areas where there are unusual felling problems. As far as practicable, forest produce is now sold standing and the material is felled and extracted by the purchasers' own employees. This policy has had the effect of switching a substantial volume of employment from the direct to the indirect category. The standing sale system has, in practice, proved itself to be the most satisfactory method of disposal of forest material and it is now fully accepted by all concerned.

Provisional thinning returns for 1960/61 show that the total volume of thinning produce for the year was approximately 2.8 million cubic feet, compared with 2.6 million cubic feet for the previous year. Other felling such as the clear-felling of mature timber, the clearance of blown material, the felling of specially selected poles to meet particular orders and so on, is estimated to have produced material with a total volume of approximately three million cubic feet.

Head 6—Mechanical Equipment for Forest Development and Management —shows an increase of almost £17,000. An additional sum of £10,000 is provided for increased purchases of machines and mechanical equipment and the balance is due to increased provision for running expenses and repairs. The provision for labour under this head is £60,500.

The total sum included for labour in the various heads of Subhead C.2 and in Subhead C.3 for 1961/62 amounts to £1,704,000, compared with an actual outturn on labour of £1,671,105 in 1960/61. There were 53 pay weeks in 1960/61, so that the provision for 1961/62 allows for increased labour expenditure of approximately £64,000 in the year on a 52 weeks basis. Agreement has recently been reached with the trade unions concerned to increase the basic wage rates of the forestry labourers by 7/6 a week with effect as from the 1st April, 1961. This increase will cost £84,000 for the year and provision to meet this extra expenditure may have to be made in a Supplementary Estimate later in the year. The position cannot be assessed properly until the probable impact of minor savings and excesses on other heads in the Vote becomes clearer.

The average weekly number of men employed in 1960/61 was 4,653, a drop of 126 compared with 1959/60, but about the same as the level for 1958/ 59. The higher level of employment in 1959/60 was primarily attributable to the exceptionally fine summer of 1959 which facilitated rapid progress with many forest operations and particularly with road construction. By contrast the weather in the summer of 1960 was anything but favourable and reports from the various centres indicate that sodden ground conditions rendered road construction work impossible in many areas. Forestry, like most outdoor operations, is subject to the vagaries of our climate but that is a difficulty we have to live with and we can only hope that conditions will be more favourable this year.

The Estimate for the current year was framed in the expectation that the average employment level for the year would be approximately 4,700 men. In the settling of the Estimate account had to be taken of the fact that this is the first year in which the incentive bonus scheme for forestry workers will be in operation at all forests. Application of the scheme was completed in October, 1960. It is a most encouraging fact that forestry workers generally have given a very favourable reception to the scheme. Their positive reaction to working under incentive conditions has been clearly indicated by a sustained rise in productivity levels, resulting in substantial savings to the Department in operational costs and in increased earnings for the workers themselves.

In the application of the scheme my Department has done everything possible to ensure that the increase in labour productivity would not lead to staff redundancy at individual centres and these efforts have been pretty successful. In a comparatively short time the natural increase in the volume of work requiring attention as a result of the rapid gain in the planted area will bring about a progressive increase in the level of employment provided, but for the present the emphasis must continue to be on the provision of steady employment for the maximum possible number of existing staff.

Turning now to Subhead G—Appropriations-in-Aid—Deputies will note that allowance is being made for an increase in forest income in 1961/62 to £542,000, an increase of £179,000 over the original income level expected for 1960/61. In the event, the Estimate for receipts last year proved to have been substantially undercast. Actual receipts for the year came to £457,000, by far the highest figure for forest income in any single year to date. The bulk of this income came from sales of timber in the forests, which realised £398,000 in the year. The remainder was made up of £33,000 from the sale of sawn timber from the Department's sawmills, £10,000 from sporting, grazing and other rents and £16,000 from miscellaneous sources, including the proceeds of sale of surplus nursery stock.

The total volume of timber sold in 1960/61 was 4.3 million cubic feet; almost 40 per cent. of this material was over 8" quarter girth and therefore in the sawlog or boxwood category. The market for all classes of material in the year was generally very favourable. In particular the increasing volume of heavier material suitable for conversion to structural timber becoming available from the State forest commanded a very ready market. This provides heartening evidence of increased awareness in the building sector of the competitive qualities of home-grown timber.

In the expectation that buoyant market conditions will continue to prevail in the current year and that there will be an increase in the volume of all classes of material becoming available, provision has been made in the Estimate for receipts of £490,000 from timber sales in the year. This is a high target. I hope that it is not over-optimistic but at any rate I can assure the House that everything possible will be done to reach it.

The overall level of receipts for 1961/62 has been put at £542,000. For the first time, therefore, it is expected that forest revenue will pass the half-million pound mark, a significant milestone for State forestry in Ireland.

I have mentioned the increasing acceptance of the satisfactory quality of home-grown timber. The vital importance of dissipating anything that may yet remain of the old ill-conceived prejudices against Irish timber is not being left to chance. The Institute for Industrial Research and Standards has already done valuable work by producing a standard specification governing moisture content limits for softwood timber used for building purposes. This standard specification provides a ready means for the settlement of contract clauses relating to the supply of timber for particular purposes. The Institute intends to formulate other standard specifications for timber in due course. As a result of recent discussions between the Institute and my Department it has been agreed that the Institute will instal the equipment necessary to carry out exhaustive tests into the mechanical properties of home-grown timber.

Objective scientific evaluation of Irish timber has hitherto been lacking and the provision of facilities to carry out the necessary mechanical tests will be an important step in the efforts being made to promote the more extensive use and better handling of our timber. In addition to providing scientific data of considerable importance to the timber trade and to all users of homegrown timber the tests will also be of great value to my Department in indicating the relative qualities of the various species being grown in the State plantations, variations in the quality of timber grown on different soil types, the effects of various methods of ground preparation, manurial treatment, and so on.

In this connection the House will be interested to learn that some months ago my Department received from the Forest Products Research Laboratory in England a report on the properties of some pinus contorta grown in an Irish State plantation. The British Forestry Commission had very kindly arranged for the carrying out of the necessary tests. Pinus contorta is a particularly important species for Irish forestry because of the extensive use that is being made of the species on some of the less fertile peat areas and the results of the tests are, therefore, of considerable interest. I am glad to say that the people who conducted the tests were very favourably impressed with the quality of the Irish Pinus contorta sent to them. It is, in fact, clear from their report that in some respects the timber was superior to Sitka spruce, which has found such favour in recent years.

The general conclusions from these tests leave no doubt that the continued planting of contorta pine is fully justified and it may well be that the species will eventually enjoy a very high reputation on the timber market. From the point of view of Irish forestry the results of the tests are most encouraging since Pinus contorta has proved to be so well-suited to our western peat areas and they support the view that our pioneer work in the use of the species is likely to pay a handsome dividend in the future.

As regards private forestry, Deputies will note that the provision for grants for afforestation purposes—Subhead D —remains unchanged at £25,000. No clear picture has yet emerged of the extent of private planting undertaken in 1960/61. During the year first instalment grants were sanctioned in respect of plantations totalling 987 acres, but most of this planting would have been done in the 1959/60 planting season. During the past year my Department's efforts to promote more private planting were continued at national and local level. Four counties —Laois, Offaly, Mayo and Kerry— were selected for special intensive campaigns and during the winter lectures on the benefits of small-scale planting were arranged at 92 centres in those counties.

During the past year, also, the minimum qualifying area under the planting grant scheme was reduced to half an acre for the congested districts in order to enable more farmers in those districts to avail themselves of the scheme.

The financial assistance for private planting now provided is on a generous scale. The full free advisory service ensures that lack of forestry experience need not deter any prospective planter from establishing a plantation on his holding. My Department will continue in its efforts to secure more private planting but in the final analysis the success of these efforts must depend on the response of our landowners. I sincerely hope that more of them will come to realise the value of the small farm wood-lot and that they will make full use of the improved assistance now made available for their benefit.

In conclusion, I would like to say as regards State forestry generally that in the past 12 months I have had the opportunity of visiting many of our forest areas and of seeing a representative cross-section of our plantations for myself. I was very impressed by the high quality of the work being done and by the enthusiasm and initiative shown by all the officers concerned with the development and management of our forests. We can, I think, be justifiably proud of the progress we are making in forestry development and it is in that belief that I recommend this Estimate to the House.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. The Minister did not indicate to the House what the Government's future policy is in relation to an increased afforestation drive. Up to 1948, the total area planted was 42,000 acres. We had in this country from 1932 to 1948 a Fianna Fáil Government and their best efforts at the end of 1948 were 42,000 acres planted.

We now have a new feature. The position now is that we have 330,000 acres planted. That did not happen by accident. In 1948, there was a change of Government. The first inter-Party Government devoted most of their energy towards reviving afforestation policy in this country. As a result of their efforts, most of the present State forests commenced to extend and expand. From 1948 to 1951, most of the forestry centres throughout the country were revived. Extra employment was given and further lands were made available for afforestation. A number of new forest centres were established. Unfortunately, in 1951, a change of Government took place, but in the 1952/53 Estimate there was a considerable improvement in the progress of forestry because of the groundwork laid down by the first inter-Party Government. The foundations laid were solid and produced results.

In 1954, the inter-Party Government again assumed office and continued with increased energy, determination, zeal, enthusiasm and efficiency to tackle once more the afforestation programme. Not alone did they tackle the afforestation programme from 1954 to 1957 but they had a re-examination as to what would be the best means of extending and expanding afforestation. All the difficulties were examined and many of them were sorted out. It was decided that legislation would have to be introduced for the purpose of simplifying the taking over of land.

It was the Forestry Act of 1956 which made it simpler and easier to unravel many of the knots which made it impossible for commonage to be acquired for forestry purposes. The very high acreage the Minister boasts about in his report today shows that the increased acreage under forests has been brought about by the efforts of the two inter-Party Governments and by the progressive legislation which they introduced during their periods of office. Great benefits were associated with the Forestry Act of 1956. That Act made it possible for some hundreds of acres of land to be acquired more speedily, without loss of time and without any great expenditure. It made it easier and simpler to acquire lands for forestry purposes.

Now we find we have reached, in 1961, a pleasant situation. In 1948, 42,000 acres were planted and in 1961, 330,000 acres were planted. Again, that shows that it was not by accident this was brought about. There were two periods during which the Governments of the day put special emphasis on afforestation.

The Forestry Department has been subjected on many an occasion to very severe criticism. I am sure the Minister will agree with me when I say that those people who criticise are fond of writing on afforestation and are anxious to comment either favourably or unfavourably about the headway in afforestation. It is the easiest thing in the world to plant trees on paper but it is a different day's work to implement speedily extensive schemes of afforestation.

The programme of afforestation can easily be divided into a number of categories. We have State afforestation, State planting; we have private planting; we have our marketing section; and we have the training of our staffs, which is very important. We must take into consideration that employment in forestry is an important factor in the rural areas, particularly in the West. If the Minister had brought in an Estimate for a much greater sum, it would have met with the approval of all rural Deputies. The amount provided is insufficient. As well as providing employment, afforestation can profitably utilise waste land. One would expect from the Minister, on this his last Estimate before the general election, a declaration of future policy and a substantial increase on all subheads.

There is an increase of £24,675 under the subhead for salaries, wages and allowances, attributable to essential increases in the inspectorate, engineering, forester and indoor staffs. I think there should be a special word of praise for the valuable work carried out by the engineering section and the inspectorate. Our qualified advisory and technical staffs are equal to, if not better than, the best in the world to-day. I venture to say that if there was a competition in which our forestry staffs were pitting their experience and practical knowledge against colleagues from such countries as Norway and France, which specialise in forestry, our men would give a very creditable account of themselves.

The Minister has charge of a very efficient and highly geared machine. That did not come about over-night. It took many years of training to reach the stage, as the Minister said, of having our trained personnel leaving the training colleges. We hope that trend will continue. It can be said that we have now made strides in afforestation. The forestry colleges have produced very good results. A tribute to the high standard of training and instruction given by the staff at the college in my constituency should be placed on record. While such standards exist we can expect that our trained forestry personnel in future years will be better than the best in the world. All of us are quick to criticise, but we should not be slow either to give deserved praise. Therefore, I take this opportunity of saying again that our advisory and technical staffs rank with the best in the world.

I am rather disappointed at the amount of money provided for publicity. I think we could do more in that field. I know the forestry section like to spend every penny wisely and that it is the duty of the heads of the Department to see there is careful and wise spending. But we must take steps to advertise. There should be publicity to encourage private plantation and further publicity in regard to State plantations.

The Minister referred to the progress of our forestry education, and we were glad to note that the expenditure for the coming year is up by £5,085. The Minister said it was expected in the current year there would be an average of 92 trainee foresters undergoing instruction in the Department's two training establishments. I believe there is a future in afforestation for the right type of person. In the past we have found very great difficulty in getting horticultural instructors; one cannot be got in my county to-day. There are other professions also in which it is difficult to get trained people because of the limited number entering them. With the expansion of afforestation and the possibilities of future development, there is a duty on the Minister for Lands to draw to the attention of parents, anxious to find a good profession at home for their children, the possibility of a career in forestry. We should draw up a plan extending over ten or fifteen years so that we would be in a position to have a fully trained staff to control our State forests and an advisory staff to advise on private afforestation.

There is a great future in private afforestation. It is only in recent years people have become interested in it. I think there is a great opening in forestry training for young men anxious to embark on a profitable career and this should be made known.

I am glad to note that steps have been taken regarding Avondale House, the old home of Parnell and a very historic spot. It is a source of great satisfaction that Avondale is again playing an important rôle in Irish forestry. The Department have acted wisely in that case and I am sure Avondale House will play a very distinguished part in the future of Irish forestry.

The bonus scheme for forestry workers is a good scheme because the workers feel that under it they can earn better pay and the Forestry Branch probably also realise that under it a greater amount of work is undertaken. I should like the Minister to give some consideration to initiating a pension scheme for forestry workers who are carrying out very specialised work. The ordinary county council road workers have a contributory scheme now and when forestry workers reach retiring age they should not be thrown on the scrap heap without provision. We have forestry centres in most parts of the country and each worker becomes highly trained each in his own sphere of work, whether thinning, drainage, preparing land or carrying out special trimming and pruning. Therefore, not alone should provision be made at present for workers but also for their retirement. I trust the Department will examine that possibility perhaps in conjunction with the men's unions or other organisations so that some practical move may result which would give the workers some security and return for the services they render in such an important sphere.

I wish to draw the Minister's attention to a very important factor to which the Minister and probably the forestry people do not seem to advert as much as they should. In many of our forests, workers are obliged to wear second-hand thigh boots and in many cases, certainly in my own constituency, workers object to this. There are many health reasons against this practice. The medical profession and officers of the Department of Health always issue warnings against wearing the boots of other people. Politically, it may be all right but I doubt if it is a wise thing for workers to work in boots that have been worn by others.

I ask the Department to make some provision to obviate this necessity. I do not know what provision can be made. The excuse given officially is that thigh boots are used only occasionally when drainage work is being done and that it would be impossible to have a pair for every worker. Some arrangement should be made by which the forester in charge of each centre would allocate the boots so that they would be worn by the same person all the time instead of having them passed round from one to the other.

It is common knowledge that certain diseases have been contracted through wearing secondhand footwear, and naturally workers are afraid to take the risk. I do not know what has been the result of representations I made to the Minister but I suggest that the Department should have sufficient thigh boots in stock to enable them to be allocated to the same people time after time—naturally to those specialising in drainage work. Each forester will know the best men for drainage, for thinning and other specialised work, and I ask the Minister to direct his officers to see that no worker will be compelled to wear secondhand boots if he does not wish to do so.

Last year a gross total of almost 30,000 acres was acquired for forestry purposes. That is a reasonably good result for one year. I presume the 1956 Act was responsible in no small way for that acreage. Could the Minister put on record the result of experiments that have been carried out —he made no reference to this in his speech to-day—in regard to the utilisation of certain bogland for forestry purposes? I know some experiments were carried out at Clonsast in Offaly but what the results were I cannot say. There was little reference to it in last years report and the next annual report will not be published for another week or ten days. State and private forestry, I feel, could work hand in hand with Bord na Móna in having certain types of bogland planted with plants that will thrive in the type of bogland available.

Previously I asked that frequent conferences be held between the Forestry Branch and Bord na Móna but I see little evidence of any land which Bord na Móna holds being planted and I know they have extensive areas of waste land. We have a very highly trained staff available for experimental purposes and it is difficult to understand why there has not been a greater degree of co-operation between the Forestry Branch and Bord na Móna, especially when in most areas Bord na Móna have large acreages of surplus cutaway bog.

The Minister referred to planting. I note he describes the target of 25,000 acres as an ambitious programme. The planting programme has certainly been speeded up but I think there is room for a greater degree of acceleration. There are 4,700 men employed. It should be possible to employ at least 20,000. The Minister told us that it is now possible to acquire certain lands in the West for afforestation. I remember receiving a deputation from the Muinntir na Tire organisation in South Leitrim. Proposals were submitted for an afforestation scheme there. The deputation came from Drumkeerin. I should like to know what happened to those proposals.

There is no reason why there should not be greater progress. We have the land; we have the trained personnel; we have the men; we have the nurseries. I expected the Minister to make some reference to the Shannon Valley. I understood the Forestry Branch were examining the position there. Right down from Longford to North Tipperary there are extensive properties on both sides of the Shannon which would be available for afforestation. The land, of course, is subject to flooding but very successful afforestation has been done in the United States of America under similar conditions. The Forestry Branch should survey the Shannon and the Nore.

Why is it not possible to have more land available for afforestation? The answer is that those who offer land to the Forestry Branch expect to get a little more for it. I have known instances in my own constituency in which I thought the valuers for the Forestry Branch valued a little bit on their own side. In most cases they are very reasonable. Remembering the high value placed on land for agricultural purposes it is a bit difficult to understand the rather low value placed on land for forestry purposes. I think that a more generous response would result if the valuation was increased.

In his opening statement the Minister said:

When I was introducing last year's Estimate I mentioned that the Statutory Regulations to deal with commonage and title difficulty cases under the provisions of the Forestry Act, 1956, had been made and that action had just been initiated in the first case to be dealt with under the new procedure, which involves the formal use of the compulsory acquisition machinery provided in the Forestry Act, 1956. Since then, progress has been made in several cases suitable for treatment in this way. The position at present is that acquisition orders have been made by the Land Commission in respect of a total of 2,514 acres, applications for acquisition orders in respect of 2,822 acres have been made and are awaiting hearing and applications are pending in respect of areas totalling 1,714 acres.

That demonstrates the foresight shown and the usefulness in introducing and passing the Forestry Act of 1956. It has contributed in no small measure to the satisfactory position indicated by the Minister. I think the amount of money provided for new roads and buildings should have been substantially increased. Nothing beautifies a country like trees. Every single acre should be acquired for afforestation, not merely to beautify the country but also because of the employment potential.

The position is we cannot bring visitors in through our forests to see them because of the lack of proper roads. The local authorities and the Department of Local Government should be prepared to set aside a sum of money either from the Road Fund or some other source to which a contribution could be made by the Forestry Branch for the provision and maintenance of roads convenient to State forests. Take, for instance, the route from Mountrath to Killenure right down to the Slieve Bloom mountains and across to Clonaslee, one of the most beautiful parts of Ireland. It is beautiful because of the tremendous work carried out by the Forestry Branch. In fact it is God's own country. Thousands of our people are travelling to the far corners of the world to view scenery while there is nothing to equal the scenery which can be viewed from the top of the Slieve Bloom mountains. Forest roadways would eventually be needed for the haulage of timber when it reaches the stage of being cut for sale or for commercial use. It is very hard to see how this timber can be transported economically from some of our new forest centres unless better roads are provided.

The Forestry Branch should give serious consideration also to the building of modern houses for our foresters convenient to plantations. It may be rather expensive to provide up-to-date residences for them but when we have a Forestry Branch let us look after those who are employed by it so that good results will be achieved.

Steps are also being taken, I see, for the establishment of large-scale nurseries to replace the existing nursery units of uneconomic size. That is a step in the right direction. When we realise that the present programme envisages the use of 40,000,000 young trees a year it indicates that there is great scope for large-scale nurseries. I have often wondered why it was not possible to establish large-scale nurseries in some of the forestry centres in the Midlands. If we accelerate the the forestry programme, take over more land, and have it drained, we may reach the stage when it will be 50,000,000 young trees a year instead of 40,000,000. In those circumstances it is only right that these large-scale nurseries should be established either by amalgamating uneconomic sized units or creating new nurseries on an extensive scale.

May I ask this question of the Minister for Lands? If one travels through France, particularly the South of France, one will notice the very beautiful tall trees growing on both sides of the road. What seems to be disappearing altogether from this country is the good old poplar tree. Many of them stood in parts of County Laois and County Kilkenny but usually after every storm or, after every high wind, there would be fewer of them standing. The Forestry Branch should consider replacing them. Those poplar trees were a landmark which beautified the country and I would suggest the planting of all lands which may become available near main roads and near county roads. The Forestry Branch may not like undertaking isolated schemes because of their uneconomic nature but I have often wondered why local authorities had not the power to plant small areas of land convenient to main roads. I expect the only provision that would be available for them would be the same as that for private planting. Nevertheless the Forestry Branch should consider having lands convenient to our main roads planted.

I must compliment the Forestry Branch on the work they carried out last year in the encouragement of private planting. Last winter was well spent in organising interesting lectures which I understand were given by Professor Cleere. Professor Cleere has the gift of imparting his very wide knowledge in a very understandable way to his listeners and he is a man of whom we can be proud. I am sure there are many people of his type who would be prepared to go through the country and lecture on the importance of private planting. While the Minister has increased the grant for private afforestation, it is insufficient to encourage private planting on a large scale. The Minister knows that in France new private plantations are exempt from local rates for a period of 30 years because it is recognised that young trees planted will not be a paying proposition for at least 30 years. That is a great encouragement. Special concessions are given in Denmark to encourage private planting. In Norway, in poorly wooded districts, taxpayers may claim all their expenses in connection with the raising of forests in their district, subject, of course, to certain limits. All the old-fashioned woodlands are profit-making.

In France, Denmark, Norway and British Columbia, special provision is made so that land owners may obtain a tree farm classification for tax purposes. If Irish land owners could get an abatement of rates or a financial concession of any kind, it would encourage private planting. I am sure the Forestry Branch has examined this matter but the Minister has not referred in his introductory speech to the means by which he will encourage private planting.

In Sweden the tax payable to the local authority is based on the income derived from the amount of land planted and if no income is being so derived the landowner does not have to pay his share of local taxation. It will be seen, therefore, that in Sweden, Norway, British Columbia, Denmark and France wonderful encouragement is given to private planting. In this country the encouragement given is insufficient to attract land-owners to carry out this work.

Let us consider the position in relation to the availability of advice for private planters. In this country it may be possible to obtain certain information from the local forester, but the local forester is not always available. In Sweden, private forest owners have at their disposal a comprehensive forestry organisation with Government employed forestry officers, forest guards, etc., whose duty it is to help private owners with the organisation of their forests and to advise on planting and thinning.

Private planting has been tackled properly and courageously in Sweden and, if we are anxious to embark on a scheme of private afforestation, we must take a leaf from the book of countries where it has been a terrific success. In no country in the world has there been the degree of profitable private planting that there has been in Sweden. That is not surprising having regard to all the facilities placed at the disposal of landowners who are prepared to spend a great share of their own money in private planting. We do not seem to have that service in this country. If we are to develop private planting, facilities must be made available. We have the experts. There are 92 trainees completing a course in College. We have the best and most highly technically qualified people in the world. In relation to private planting the only advisory service is the county committee of agriculture, the local forester and the Forestry Branch who may give advice when requested. The Minister for Lands should copy the Swedish method of promoting private planting.

In Denmark private planting has also been encouraged. It carries free supervision from the Department of Lands and there is also a very substantial and high rate State grant. The State grant here would not encourage people to use their land for planting purposes. In Denmark there is a free advisory service also. The Minister for Lands during the past year was in some country reviewing forestry work, with particular reference to private forests. I do not know if he was in Denmark or Sweden. Denmark and Sweden have produced results and there is no reason why we cannot produce them.

In Ontario assistance is given in drawing up plans and any assistance required is provided free of charge to anybody who has any portion of land for private planting, whether big or small. In Great Britain the Forestry Commission has officers in each area whose sole duty it is to visit private forests and plantations and to give every kind of advice and assistance that is required. The Forestry Commission there have already listed a number of private plantations and have guaranteed markets for the product. It would appear that private afforestation in England has made wonderful strides due to the amount of work being done by the Forestry Commission and the support they give to private planters.

We are making a certain amount of headway in State afforestation. We can make more. The land is available, the workers are available, the plants are there and the staff and technical personnel are available. Let us go full steam ahead. We are capable of employing twice as many men. Where there is mountain land suitable for afforestation, planting should proceed. A conference should be convened with Bord na Móna with a view to planting waste bogland. Let us courageously tackle the problem of private planting on the same lines as other countries have done. In that way we can make some headway.

About a year and a half ago the master builders referred to the fact, and every Deputy notes with pride and satisfaction, that the doubt that existed in relation to home-grown timber is dying out. It is a source of very great satisfaction indeed that our home-produced timber is now looked upon as the best for building purposes. It compares more than favourably with the best timber imported for construction purposes. The Minister must admit that is a great stride and a great achievement.

Naturally, we cannot allow this occasion to pass without commenting on the foresight of the first Cumann na nGaedheal Government in embarking on the first scheme of afforestation and planting. I recall, from reading the debates, the difficult problem they had putting the Estimates through the House but the timber now being sold is the pride of the forestry section. Thirty-five or 40 years ago, the land was prepared for growing the little plants which are now being used as timber which is the pride and joy of the building trade. The foresight understanding and wisdom of the old Cumann na nGaedheal and Fine Gael Governments are shown in their decision that our own houses should be built with native timber. We have now reached the stage where the building trade experts say that our own forests and woods produce timber that compares favourably with the best timber that can be imported for building purposes. That is what we wanted to achieve.

We should all realise, and the tax-payers should realise, that the money we sink in afforestation will not show results overnight. Afforestation takes at least 20, 25 or 30 years to produce results. The more money we invest in afforestation, the greater will be the yield in profits and dividends in 35 or 40 years time. I am glad there is such a market for our timber. I am glad it has been used by the E.S.B. as poles. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs also use it as poles. We now have the E.S.B. and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs using our own timber which has been stated publicly to be the pride of the master builders' association. If it were not for the first steps which were taken in afforestation, we would not find ourselves in the happy position in which we find ourselves today.

I hope I have not taken up too much of the time of the House on this Estimate but it is one in which the Fine Gael Party take a very great interest. The Fine Gael Party believe more people can be employed, and more waste lands utilised, the country can be beautified by trees, and the economy of the country can be strengthened through afforestation. The aim of this Party is to maintain and expand the afforestation programme initiated by the old Cumman na nGaedheal Government and carried on during the two periods of office of the inter-Party Government which certainly showed great drive and initiative in furthering our afforestation programme.

The Fine Gael Party established efficient marketing machinery for forestry products. That marketing machinery should be improved and developed to an even greater extent. There is room for the establishment of suitable rural industries to handle the by-products of timber. We have the trained personnel and we should now get down to the establishment of industries convenient to the forestry centres which will employ local labour, be it technical or otherwise.

The Minister made no reference to the by-products of timber. As I have said, we see the tremendous progress which was made in Sweden, Denmark and Norway in relation to local industries set up to deal with the by-products of timber. I wonder have our forestry section done any planning in that regard? Have they had sufficient foresight to plan and look ahead and see what industries can be set up to deal with these by-products?

Any steps taken by the forestry section are certainly steps in the right direction. They have a big job, a job which cannot be done overnight. Forestry will not produce results overnight. Forestry is the one section where you cannot see results from year to year because of the extent and nature of the work. Let us not be too hasty, but let us lay down the foundations for greater progress, drive and enthusiasm. There should be greater determination on the part of the State to bring home to the people the importance of afforestation.

The forestry section is looked upon by some Deputies as a second-rate section but I believe there is no more important section of a Department in the country than the forestry section. The forestry people realise that it should not be shoved into the background. It can give employment, beautify the country and bring us a return in the years to come. That is why I say every effort should be made to revive enthusiasm in relation to afforestation. We will get a return from the money we sink in it and we will get greater profits eventually. Is it not grand to see employment given and the countryside beautified and, at the same time, our own resources being strengthened, and to have the knowledge our own timber compares favourably with the best that can be imported from any part of the world?

I sincerely hope the Minister will bear in mind the great source of employment afforestation is. My view is—I do not know if the Minister shares it—that between State afforestation and the establishment of minor industries for timber products, with long term planning, taking into account the amount of land available —which can be got and which must be got, if we are to expand—the aim of all Parties in this House, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Labour, should be to develop afforestation to the fullest possible extent. It is not 4,500 men we should employ but 20,000. We have the men. All we need is the initiative, the drive and a realisation of the urgency and importance of afforestation. It can be done and it will be done with drive and initiative in the future.

Mr. Blowick

This is an Estimate in which I take a particular interest each year when it comes before the House. At the outset it is no harm to look at the nature of the work confronting the Forestry Department. They have three principal tasks, the acquisition of land, the actual planting of land—including the nurseries to grow plants, providing fences, drainage and road making—and thirdly, but by no means least important, is the sale of the produce of the forests. I was very pleased to learn this year that the Appropriations-in-Aid, the sales of timber, in the Department had come well over the half million pound mark. I remember the first time I had anything to do with forestry, in 1948, and the figure then was £103,000. Therefore these figures, the £103,000 in 1948 and the £542,000 in 1961-62, give a very adequate answer to any opponents afforestation might have. It is the one Department which is helping to pay its way. I can visualise the time in the years ahead when, instead of the Minister for Lands coming in to look for money, his Department will be showing a profit and funds will be going in to the Exchequer from the yields from the sale of timber now being planted and which will come to maturity slowly but surely.

The Minister told us there were 2,800,000 cubic feet of thinnings last year but he did not tell us what was done with them or where the market for such a quantity of timber was. I suppose they would be up to and beyond eight inches to nine inches in girth. In that connection it is relevant to inquire what is the Government's intention in regard to setting up a pulp mill to utilise this timber and to convert some of it into pulp. The Minister will probably tell me that there are already a few private industries participating to a certain extent in that work. As far as I can see, private industry could not establish an industry of the proportions needed to handle the output from the forests.

When the Minister is replying I should like him to tell the House what the cubic footage is expected to be in 1970, nine years ahead. While I have the greatest admiration for private industry which is already handling and converting timber thinnings into pulp and other by-products, I think the financial implications in such a huge industry could not be handled by private industrialists. I believe it would run into the region of £9 million or £10 million to establish a pulp mill with subsidiary industries to handle the out-turn of the forests in eight or nine years time. I submit that it is not too soon to look ahead to our doing that. It is something which the State must undertake sooner or later.

I should like the Minister to answer those two points: in what way were the 3 million cubic feet of thinnings disposed of last year, and secondly, what is the intention regarding the setting up of an industry to handle the output? I was disappointed to see that private planting was not making better headway. Might I give the reason for that? The planting of half an acre or an acre by the private individual is not so easy as it looks at first sight. I am quite sure many people who know nothing about land or the life of the average farmer think to themselves "Is that not a lazy fellow when he will not put an acre or two under timber?" For the average small farmer it is quite a substantial undertaking. Even the worst acre of land he has is producing something. It might be a run for a horse, a few sheep or cattle and while it may not be making a profit it is helping him.

We must remember that a man who intends to put an acre of land under timber has to fence it off completely and, while he is paying rent and rates for it, it will be absolutely no use to him for 12 or 15 years, when he may get a return. While £20 might seem a substantial grant, I submit it is totally inadequate for this reason. The Forestry Department have experts and they have all the machinery of the Government behind them. It must be admitted they are doing a huge job very economically but the Minister is asking for £3 million to plant 25,000 acres this year. If we do a simple sum of division, we find that each acre the Forestry Department is planting, has planted or will plant, is costing about £108. That includes the buying of land. If we take the £10 which is the highest figure per acre they give, we find that between nurseries and fencing, drainage and all the rest, each acre costs £108. When we look at it that way, we see that it still costs the Forestry Department, who are doing the job as economically as possible, £108.

The reason private planting has not gone ahead is that the £20 grant is just not sufficient. Deputy Flanagan suggested there should be some other inducement and I agree. I think the plantation, until it starts to earn some income in about 15 years time, should be free of rates. That would require legislation. The private planter could make a very good contribution and the question of increasing the grant should be looked into.

I understood from the Minister's opening speech that there was a surplus of plants disposed of last year. How were they disposed of and to whom? I was very glad to see that Avondale is being saved. The last time I was in Avondale was during the summer of 1956 and it was then showing signs of its age. The roof was bad and the floors were beginning to give way. I am very glad to see that the old home of Charles Stewart Parnell, who was good enough to make his home the first home for forestry, is now going to have sufficient money spent on it to keep it in good order. I do not care to what use it is put afterwards. I am glad that the fact that Parnell was so enthusiastic about afforestation to give his home and land to the government of the day for afforestation purposes is being appreciated. It would be a shameful thing if the house were allowed to fall into a state of disrepair.

There is a plantable reserve of 50,000 acres this year. I can describe it as being barely safe. It is essential, if we are to get on with forestry properly, that we should build up to at least a three years' reserve. That would bring us to a plantable reserve of 75,000 acres. I fully appreciate the difficulties of getting sufficient land. The lots of land coming on offer to the Forestry Department are getting smaller in size each year. The Minister told us that the average is dropping year by year. That is to be expected. The large areas of land, as far as I know, have come in already. There are not many more big widths of country to swell the acreage required. We shall have to fall back on smaller and smaller lots. Nevertheless that should not be a deterrent. If necessary the staff in the Acquisition Section of the Forestry Department should be increased to meet that threat. When we find the acreage getting smaller, it is a threat.

Over 400 cases were handled last year. That is a very creditable piece of work for the men concerned. Even 200 cases of title—and we know of the deplorable state of the title of a great deal of the land of this country—is, I think, very creditable for the Acquisition Section to have ploughed through and brought to a successful conclusion. Above any section of the Forestry Department, there is very great credit due to them for that work.

Being a legal man the Minister must know quite well how difficult it is to iron out all these small knotty problems that are so irritating. I shall not dwell any further on the plantable reserve. We have to be satisfied with it. We should like an adequate storage. However, it is not bad. It is quite enough to get by with, provided we can keep up an intake of 30,000 acres a year. I want to throw out a warning that I think it will be very difficult for the Forestry Division to maintain the acquisition of 30,000 acres a year.

The getting of 30,000 acres is a terrific problem. I would like to see an intake of 30,000 acres a year for a few years. That amount is needed but I do not see any hope of it. Forest enthusiasts now and again let themselves go and urge compulsory acquisition for forestry purposes. That is one thing that should never be contemplated for a moment. There is nothing more vulnerable than growing forestry. If the Forestry Department have not the goodwill of the people who live in the vicinity they will not have the forest. On a few occasions it was brought to my notice that, without compulsory acquisition proceedings at all, some local fellow did not like the fact that a piece of grazing was sold and that forestry put it out of his reach. In one case, he burned it for the third time, I believe. That shows that in the matter of acquisition of land the goodwill of the local people must be retained if the forest is to be a success. Otherwise it will be burned down.

I do not agree with the establishment of big nurseries. Smaller nurseries might be more economic. They might be easier for the Department to handle and to manage; and might work out cheaper in the long run. I think some of the small nurseries that were established and that gave very good and useful employment in areas where no other employment was likely should never have been abandoned. That happened to some of them when the present Minister for Transport and Power was Minister for Lands. It was a retrograde step.

A Forestry Department, as well as being saddled with the job of growing our requirements of timber, takes part in social work of a very high character. They give employment in the backward rural areas. The areas are backward because it is only where the land is poorest that the Forestry people can or will acquire land for afforestation. Along with the employment given by ordinary forest work in these areas, I think it was a huge mistake to close down some of the smaller nurseries which were giving very useful and much-needed employment. One, at Moore Hall, was established in 1949 or 1950. It was giving employment to about 30 men. That was closed on the ground of economy and the growing of the trees was transferred to God knows where. I made inquiries a few months back and to my surprise I learned that 22 of the 30 men had emigrated since they laid off work in that nursery.

That is one example of why, while it might be very creditable for any Government Department to effect as much economy as possible, it is a desperate thing when, for the sake of a few pounds economy, we lose 20 or 22 men in one small area. I know the place intimately; it is outside my own home. Whatever Minister advises that kind of thing is certainly not doing his work properly. I cannot understand how it is that the planting acreage is going up but that the number of men employed is shrinking. It was 126 lower last year compared with the year before. That needs a word of explanation when the Minister comes to reply.

The Minister told us that the English Forest Products Research Laboratory carried out certain research work on contorta pine timber submitted to them. I should like to hear more about that. I learned to regard contorta pine in a not very favourable light as a commercial timber. I should be delighted to hear that I was wrong. I should like the Minister to tell us some more about the samples submitted to the Forest Products Research Laboratory, the kind of soil on which they were grown and the elevation. All these factors should be taken into account in the testing of timber.

If you sow contorta pine on a very poor type of peat soil I know the type of timber you will get. On a good mineral soil you would get a reasonably good contorta pine. The Minister seems delighted that the British research people gave a favourable account of the contorta pine sample submitted to them. I should like to know more about it than that. The few curtailed remarks the Minister made about it do not make the position very clear.

As regards planting in the West of Ireland, I am sorry to note that since the Minister took over, or even since the present Government took office, not many new forests have been established from Donegal to Kerry. It is to that part of the country that we must look to get the greatest acreage of our forestry plantations. It would be sheer madness to plant arable or marginal land. Because the biggest area of suitable forestry land is in the west of Ireland, we look there for the land we need for this work. I am sorry to have to say that for the past five years no new forest I know of has begun and that any additions to existing forests have been meagre.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.