Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 Aug 1961

Vol. 191 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Cork Gas Order, 1961—Motion of Approval.

I move:

That the Cork Gas Order, 1961, proposed to be made by the Minister for Transport and Power and laid in draft before Dáil Éireann on the 17th day of June, 1961, under subsection (4) of section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, be approved.

The Cork Gas Consumers' Company is a statutory body set up under a private Act of 1868 and is not subject to the ordinary provisions of company law. Any alterations in the statutory provisions relating to the company have to be effected by means of a Special Order under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, which enables me to grant additional powers to the company. Before the Order is made, it has to be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. The Houses of the Oireachtas may by resolution approve the draft Order in the form submitted or approve it with modifications or additions. When such approval is given I may make the Order in the form in which it has been approved.

Before I may make such an Order, it must be publicised in order to give an opportunity to all concerned to make objections. If objections made are not either accepted or withdrawn by the objectors I may direct the holding of a Public Inquiry before making the Order.

Notice of the proposed Order was published in the Iris Oifigiúil and in the newspapers and copies were sent to the local authorities in Cork and to other public bodies who might be concerned. Two objections were made by the Cork Workers' Council. One was withdrawn and by agreement the draft Order was amended to meet the other objection. In the absence of any other objections and as there was nothing repugnant to the public interest in the Order, I recommend it to the House for approval. The Order has already been approved by Resolution of the Seanad. In the debate in that House, I was surprised to find objections raised to the reasonable provisions of the Order on grounds of what I can only describe as doctrinaire socialism. It may, perhaps, be helpful to the Dáil if I deal in some detail with the main objections raised in the Seanad. Objection was taken to the increase of the company's capital from £150,000 to £750,000; to the issue of bonus shares and to the building up of reserves which make that possible. The assets of the Cork Gas Company are now valued at £574,000 and some £176,000 further capital additions are planned for the near future to enable the company to give better service and to complete on better terms with electricity and other forms of fuel.

The £150,000 share capital was fixed in 1868 and is now entirely unreal. The reserve built up reflects very little more than the change in the value since then of real property generally. The extent to which the increased share capital will be met by new subscriptions or by bonus shares is entirely a matter for the company. I can see nothing wrong in the issue of bonus shares in respect of the accumulated capital assets which are the property of the existing shareholders. It is largely a book transaction. Unless the earnings of the company are increased there can in the long run be no increase in dividends. If by any chance the law was amended to provide for no-par shares as has been recommended by many authorities these objections would cease to have any meaning at all.

The limitation of £10,000 on the amount of reserve funds also dates from 1847 and is now unreal. Moreover, the accumulation of reserves in our situation is a useful and desirable form of saving. In present circumstances, the provision of a ceiling on the reserves which may be accumulated by the company serves no useful purpose.

Reference was made also to the need for controlling the charges and profits of the company. In present circumstances, there is no likelihood that the Cork Gas Company would be able to make excessive profits. The days when it enjoyed a real monopoly are gone and it must now face intense competition with electricity as well as with solid fuel and oil appliances. In any case I have power under the Gas Regulation Act, 1957, to fix maximum charges by Order following consideration by an advisory committee. If ever the circumstances warranted that course I should have no hesitation about establishing the necessary advisory committee.

The normal existing provisions whereby consumers are responsible for meters are clarified in the Order. I know that in some circumstances rifling of gas meters has caused hardship but human nature being what it is, it would be impracticable to shift the responsibility from the consumers. The company have assured me that they will deal with genuine hardship in such cases with generosity and discretion. They find it pays to be kind in this context.

Finally, I must say that the changes which are being made by this Order are similar to the changes which, if the company were a private one, a wise board would seek to have made in their Articles and Memorandum under the Companies Acts. They are aimed at the prudent and useful deployment and expansion of the company's resources in the interests of the shareholders and public alike and no one could take serious exception to them who does not hold the now out of date view that all profits are immoral.

We are advised that there is no serious objection to this Order but I should be interested to hear from the Minister for Transport and Power why it is still thought desirable to maintain in respect of the Dublin Gas Company the strict link between the dividends permitted and the price charged for gas, or has that proviso been removed?

It has been removed.

Certainly when I was young in this town, the Dublin Gas Company could not increase their dividends if they did not provide the consumers with a corresponding reduction in the price of gas. On the whole I think it is true to say that what may have been a monopoly in the old days is no longer so, particularly with the introduction of electricity. Gas now competes with it and other varieties of heating and of course it is no longer a significant source of illumination. Still, if the power were not there, which it is, I understand, to control the price of gas, if the necessity did arise, I would be uneasy. I think I am right in saying that the Minister has power which can be invoked to control the price of power.

Yes, on the advice of the advisory committee.

We must not close our eyes to the fact that gas is very largely the cooking fuel of the poor. While, in theory, it is true that there is effective competition between gas and electricity, if people in modest circumstances have equipped themselves to cook with gas, it is not much use telling them to throw out their gas cooker and put in an electric cooker when they cannot afford to make the change. Therefore, it is necessary to have power, if the attempt is made to exploit the essential needs of poor people, for profit, to intervene on behalf of the community in order to redress the situation.

I did not read the debate that took place in the Seanad but I am not a doctrinaire socialist and yet I would be prepared to maintain that sources of power ought to be in the control of the community. Does anyone suggest that the E.S.B. ought to become a private company? If anyone did suggest that to us, we would think it pretty odd. This controversy has raged long and loudly in the United States of America, and that is not a citadel of doctrinaire socialism, but I should say that almost every liberal-minded man and woman in the United States of America now would be prepared to say that power ought to be in the control of the community which uses it.

Speaking as a confirmed and radical liberal, who believes in free trade and who has actually lived to convert Fianna Fáil from its obscurantist and doctrinaire convictions——

I reserve my right to reply now that we are opening on free trade.

The Minister can reply until the cows come home.

This matter seems to be beyond the nature of the subject under discussion.

I am told it is doctrinaire socialism even to examine the possibility——

I was not referring to free trade.

I do not think we ought to pursue that line.

If the Minister says he condemns anyone who criticises his Order on the ground that it is doctrinaire socialism to advocate public control of these powers, I think it is in order when discussing the Cork Gas Order to give my experience of the world, and it must be of some value to the House. I have seen this issue fought out in societies where nobody could suggest that doctrinaire socialism was the order of the day and it was the liberal, open-minded elements in the society who were concerned to defend private enterprise.

I do not see how private enterprise versus doctrinaire socialism arises on this Order.

I can draw your attention to the relevant paragraph. The Minister said, referring to the Seanad:

In the debate in that House, I was surprised to find objections raised to the reasonable provisions of the Order on grounds of what I can only describe as doctrinaire socialism. It may, perhaps, be helpful to the Dáil if I deal in some detail with the main objections raised in the Seanad.

These are the objections which the Minister described as doctrinaire socialism.

The matters relevant would be matters raised here.

I do not think the canvassing of the possibility of gas and electricity and other sources of power being under public control is doctrinaire socialism.

That was not what was the matter of discussion.

I followed the Minister's statement as clearly as I could. What I want to say is—wherever I heard that issue canvassed, it was the most liberal elements in the society who were in favour of public control of light and power and it was the conservative, reactionary element who did not give a damn about anybody who took up the doctrinaire position that it was contrary to public morality that there should be public control of light and power.

I do not think public control of light and power represents doctrinaire socialism. I believe it represents sound liberal principles for which we have the support of diverse persons. But for the fact that I believe that circumstances obtaining in Cork and circumstances obtaining in Dublin effectively prevented the gas company either in Dublin or Cork from having an effective monopoly, I would be in favour of the public control of both, but I think it is true to say that in the modern conditions in which we live, there is competition and where there is competition, I believe you will get the best value for the consumer.

That is the only yardstick by which I measure the merits of this matter. I have no doctrinaire convictions in respect of it, but, even believing that, I feel, for the reasons already stated, that it is wise to retain an overriding power to inaugurate control, if that should prove necessary for the protection of the poor. So long as that safe-guard has been incorporated in the Order, we see no objection to its general terms.

Question put and agreed to.
Top
Share