This section increases from 90 to 110 the maximum permitted strength of the inspector rank of the Garda Síochána. Subsection (2) of Section 5 of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925, prescribes that the Garda Síochána shall consist of such officers and men as the Government shall from time to time determine not exceeding the total number of officers and men respectively specified in the Third Schedule to the Act. In that schedule, as amended by the Garda Síochána Act, 1945, the specified number of inspectors is 90 and this number is being increased to 110 by Section 1 of this Bill. It is necessary to create 13 new inspector posts in order to implement in full the scheme for the reorganisation of the Dublin Metropolitan Division of the Force. An additional seven posts are provided for to meet further contingencies.
Committee on Finance. - Garda Síochána Bill, 1961—Committee Stage.
When the Government tell us they want this number to have more efficient organisation and working by the Garda in order to deal with their police duties, I do not suppose we can refuse them. However, I am a bit perturbed about the system of promotion to this inspector rank, and indeed, to all other ranks, but in particular to the inspector rank. Before we would give this measure to the Minister I should like that he would assure us that promotions to this rank of inspector in the uniformed branch will be from the uniformed branch and that inspectors being promoted in the detective section will be promoted from the detective section. I have reason to believe that there is dissatisfaction with regard to promotions that have taken place not only recently but perhaps over the years: that members of the uniformed Force are brought in to the detective section and promoted to the rank of inspector, and that members of the detective section who have a very good record, an excellent record, are passed over.
In my opinion, that creates a certain amount of dissatisfaction. I found myself, when I occupied the office which the Minister now holds, that there was this dissatisfaction and that it was continuing. Now that we are increasing the number from 90 to 110, there is space for greater expansion and greater opportunity.
I should also like the Minister to tell us in regard to promotion, that not only will a good service record and efficiency be taken into consideration, but that where there are members of the Old I.R.A. with a 1916-21 medal, with or without bar, it will be taken into consideration in deciding on promotion to the rank of inspector, for the length of time they will be there. As a matter of fact, I would urge on the Minister that it should be taken into consideration in all cases of promotion. It is only a passing phase and in a very short time, say, in 10 years, I suppose, no one with a medal with or without bar will be left. For the time they will be there, I feel that the Minister and the Government should take that into consideration when making these promotions.
There are several other matters which one would feel inclined to raise but which would not be in order on this Bill and I do not propose to touch on them. I want to eliminate as far as is humanly possible one piece of what I know from experience to be definite dissatisfaction.
This Bill was introduced as a result of a reorganisation of the Garda in Dublin. That reorganisation has brought about a situation in which additional inspectors are required. Although there will still be room for the appointment of, I think, seven inspectors more than are immediately required, I should like to ask if the Minister is satisfied that he has provided in this Bill for the appointment of a sufficient number of inspectors?
What I am interested in is that as Dublin has been reorganised and more inspectors are required, is it not desirable that such reorganisation should take place in Cork, Galway, Limerick, and other urban areas? If such reorganisation takes places will the Minister not find that he will have to come back with a similar short Bill? I take it that no one finds any objection to the Bill, but between now and Report Stage, the Minister should look ahead and consider the possibility that future reorganisation in various centres throughout the country will necessitate the appointment of more people with the rank of inspector.
On Second Stage, the Minister also referred to the closing down of some stations in rural areas. I understand that takes place only where there is a record of no crime for a considerable period. It seems therefore that possibly fewer policemen will be administering greater areas than heretofore. In that respect also, it might be necessary to have reorganisation as time goes on, which will mean the appointment of more inspectors.
In Dublin today, the biggest problem confronting Dublin Corporation is the rapid growth of population. With that growth, again, is the Minister satisfied that this reorganisation will not have to be further extended, with the extension of the city area, Corporation estates, private buildings in the suburbs, and so forth? Will the Minister consider increasing the number from 110 to, say, 120, or even 150, and then he, or whatever Minister is in office in the years to come, will be in a position to deal with any future reorganisation that might become necessary ?
The present retiring age is, I think, 63 years. In Dublin, I understand there are a large number of inspectors and officers of higher rank who will be due to retire in the very near future. A large number of them will be retiring at the same time. Those experienced inspectors will be replaced, I take it, probably, by younger men. Although I agree with the previous speaker that people who have given service to the country, and have medals with or without bar, should be given very favourable consideration, when it comes to finding suitable people to fill vacancies, from the information given to us on Second Stage, it is apparent that many younger men will be considered for these positions.
It seems to me that if a large number retire at the same time, or around the same time, the smooth administration and running of the Garda might be interfered with because of so many changes taking place together. To me, that is a good case for an extension of the service of suitable men, provided they are considered fit in every way, pass suitable health tests, and so on. Those extensions, to my mind, should not be granted on more than a year to year basis, but for a smooth change-over from the existing inspectors and superintendents to the new men who will replace them very shortly, I think the Minister should ensure that there is not a sudden change of a large number, and that the change will be gradual. In order to achieve this gradual change-over, I think the Minister should consider, in certain circumstances, extending the retiring age from 63 to, say, 65. A two year period would enable that smooth change-over to take place.
I mentioned on Second Stage that superintendents and higher ranks were entitled to two years' extension, provided they have a medal with bar. I am glad that in the last year this extension now applies to all ranks. This extension is long overdue and the Minister is to be congratulated on bringing it in.
As this is the Committee Stage of this Bill, would the Minister consider, before we pass to the Report Stage, whether it would be desirable to increase that figure of 110 and thereby leave himself free, in co-operation with the Commissioner, to carry out any future reorganisation which might be found to be desirable? I hope the Minister will deal with these points in his reply.
Mr. Donnellan
I am informed in connection with promotions that not one of those promoted was from the province of Connacht. That is very strange because in the five counties in the province of Connacht, there are as good men in the Force as there are in any other province or county. I merely want to ask the Minister why no member of the Force from the province of Connacht was called for promotion.
I am very glad Deputy MacEoin mentioned this matter of promotion. I know he will believe me when I assure him and the House that I am just as anxious as anybody, possibly more anxious than most people, to remove any possible cause of discontent that there may be in the Force. We know that discontent and dissatisfaction can arise for many reasons. Men can become dissatisfied with their accommodation, with their pay, with their prospects but I think possibly the grievance that seems to be the most serious and eats most deeply into a man's mind is this discontent or dissatisfaction over promotion.
I mentioned on the Second Stage that it is inevitable that in any Force of this size and this nature there should be disappointment from time to time. Men will be disappointed that they have failed to be promoted. The important thing is to ensure, however, that that disappointment does not become anything more than disappointment and the only way we can ensure that is by endeavouring to have a system of promotion throughout the Force which will not alone be fair but be capable of being seen to be fair, so that every man in the Force will be able to say: "Well, if I did not succeed, at least a better man did" or "At least I got a fair chance of promotion." I should be very anxious that we would be able to bring about a situation where that would be generally known and realised throughout the Force and if I can isolate any factor which would prevent such a state of affairs, then I shall be very glad to do something about it.
I also explained on Second Stage that promotion within the Force depends on merit, that the system is based on suitability for promotion and that in the event of other things being equal, then seniority counts. I think that is the way it must be and that is a fair way to have it, particularly, as I pointed out on Second Stage, as in the Garda Síochána, any man joining the Force can be promoted right up to the top. There is no entry into the higher echelon by means of a cadet force or anything of that nature. That being so, when it comes to promoting people at any level of the Force, regard must be had to the fact that the person to be promoted could eventually go to the very top. Therefore, serious regard must be had to his capabilities and to his qualifications. Having said that much, I must go on to say that, other things being equal, seniority must count.
I have promised the House, and I shall adhere to my promise, that I shall discuss this matter fully with the Commissioner. I shall mention to him everything that was mentioned here and see whether there is any way in which this system could be improved, not alone to ensure that it seems to work fairly but that it actually does work fairly. This is one clear case where justice must not only be done but be seen to be done.
I am afraid I cannot agree with Deputy MacEoin in his suggestion that national service should count in regard to promotion. The position in the Force is that national service is taken into account in deciding whether or not to grant a member this extension of two years from 63 to 65. When I say national service, I mean, of course, national service which has merited the medal and bar. That is as far as we can go in giving recognition to national service. It would be undesirable and objectionable to have national service counted as a factor in determining whether or not one man should be promoted over and above another. I know this House would be inclined in any of these matters to do what they could to pay tribute and to grant some recognition to members of the Old I.R.A. who have national service but this is not the way in which it should be done. We have gone as far as we can in giving two years' extension to men with medal and bar.
Deputy Lemass mentioned the question of the reorganisation and asked me if I were satisfied that 110 was a large enough figure. In that regard, I want to point out that at the time the examination was made of the situation in Dublin, the examination from which this proposal springs, a corresponding examination was carried out throughout the country and in the cities he mentioned, Limerick, Cork and so on. It was decided as a result of that examination that no particular change was necessary but a scheme of reorganisation was decided upon for Dublin and, as I mentioned briefly on Second Stage, that scheme involves the putting of an inspector in charge of each of 21 of the 23 Dublin stations and an inspector with each detective unit, and also provides for the establishment of a communications officer and a crime prevention officer. Much of that scheme has already been put into operation. The remaining part of it was held up because of not having a sufficient number of inspectors and that is the reason for this Bill.
We are now giving ourselves statutory authority to appoint the additional number of inspectors required. I should not like to come here, having estimated the number of inspectors we require, to ask for twice that number. I think the statutory provision of a maximum number of any rank is based on the fact that it is a good idea that this House should keep control of the particular situation and that it should not be left entirely to the discretion of the Government to appoint any number of any particular rank they would like.
The police force is a fundamental institution. It is a good thing that if the Government want an increase in any number they have to come to this House and justify the increase. Therefore I think there is an obligation on me to decide the number of inspectors I need and then to ask the House to give me statutory authority to appoint that number, with a little leeway, and that is what I have done.
If it transpires that a situation would develop in Cork, Limerick or elsewhere in which we would need extra inspectors, we have a leeway of seven. In asking the House to vote us twenty additional inspectors we need only thirteen. Therefore, we have given ourselves thirteen with a little leeway of seven. I do not think it would be desirable to look for any greater number than that.
Deputy Lemass also touched on an aspect of the force which is very much in my mind at the moment. That is that, because of the historical development of the force, a very large number of the higher echelon will be going out within the next two or three years. For the younger members of the force at the moment, it is excellent. There will be wonderful opportunities of promotion over the next two, three, four, five years. However, for the force as a whole, I do not think it would be a good thing. I am inclined to agree that is not desirable that there should be a wholesale clearance of the higher echelon, being replaced completely in a very short period of time with new people. Unfortunately, that is the situation and there is not very much we can do about it. In so far as anything can be done about it, it is being done with this provision that, other things being equal, seniority counts. That will ensure a certain leavening out of the sudden transition that is due to take place.
I was distressed to hear Deputy Donnellan's complaint about Connacht. I have not heard anything about it before.
Mr. Donnellan
The Minister has heard it now.
I have heard it now and I certainly shall look into it. I hope that it is not so.
Mr. Donnellan
It is so.
I doubt if it really could be so. What does Deputy Donnellan mean by the province of Connacht? Does he mean a member of the Garda born in Connacht, no matter where he is serving?
Mr. Donnellan
No, stationed in Connacht, even if he is from Dublin —and there are good fellows there, too. Not one of them is from Cork— plus Donegal.
I should be aghast if I thought it were true. I shall certainly make immediate inquiries of the Commissioner.
Mr. Donnellan
Thanks very much.
I find it very hard to believe that it could possibly be so.
Mr. Donnellan
Well, so I am told.
We shall look into it.
Mr. Donnellan
Thanks.
The question of the closing of rural stations was mentioned on the Second Stage and I explained the situation. A rural station is closed only after the most careful consideration. I think it is the invariable rule that the station is closed only when it can be shown that the area covered by it has virtually been free of crime over a number of years. In that connection, I pointed out to the House that we had a duty to the taxpayer that the force be administered as efficiently and economically as possible and that a station which is obviously an anachronism and is no longer serving any useful purpose be closed. I can assure the House that no station is closed without the most careful examination and without every aspect of the proposed closure being examined.
I am glad to learn that the Minister accepts the view—which I do not suppose was ever really in doubt—that in promotion not only must justice be done but be seen to be done. That is very important. However, for some reason or another, a particular type of assertion is made and some evidence is put forward to justify it. I want to draw the attention of the Minister to it and to hear a statement from him in this House that, as he says himself, not only will justice be done but will be seen to be done. It will not be too easy to do that and nobody knows it better than I do.
Mention has been made of the number of Gardaí who will be going out on pension. It is the opportunity every young Garda looks forward to. Even Deputies like to see the old fellows moving out.
Mr. Donnellan
That is not so. I do not agree.
It is quite normal and natural.
Deputy MacEoin, without interruption.
I know that every time an officer of the Garda or of the Army is retained he is blocking, as it were, the promotion of somebody else. There are difficulties. I am glad the Minister gave me an opportunity of mentioning it. It does not come fully within the ambit of this Bill and neither did the Minister. I suggest that, being a young Minister, it would be a very nice gesture on his part and on the part of the Government he represents if it were agreed that the 100 or 150 members of the Garda who have a medal without bar would get the two years which their colleagues get. They got it in the Army. Why make fish of one and flesh of another? I would ask the Minister to reconsider that matter.
On the question of promotion, the Minister spoke about everything else being equal. I do not ask for the promotion of a fellow if he is not good; I do not want that. However, everything else being equal, I ask that he get the benefit of that service or that he get recognition for it.
Deputy Donnellan complains about the position in Connacht and says that, with all the Irish speakers in the force in Connacht and with everybody shouting about the great work the Gardaí are doing in Connacht— Gardaí from Dublin and elsewhere stationed in Connacht—none of them has been called for promotion. I do not know how true that is. The Minister has now said he will look into it. It would be well if the Minister laid the complaint to rest or confirmed it.
Mr. Donnellan
This is what I am told as regards Connacht.
Take the Minister's word on it.
Mr. Donnellan
The Minister asked if they are all Connacht people. He knows very well they are not. They are from different counties.
I would not hold that against them.
Mr. Donnellan
I would not, anyhow, whether or not Deputy MacEoin would. Definitely I would not hold it against them. I just want to point out to the Minister that Connacht is generally considered a backward area. Many Garda sergeants are in the area —many of them are from Dublin, if the Minister wants it that way—and the strange thing is that Donegal is included as well and for all that province, from the five counties, not one of the sergeants has been called even for interview. I thought as a Connacht man, I might point that out to the Minister. I suppose I need not do so. Indeed, I suppose I might have begun by congratulating the Minister on his appointment as Minister for Justice. I need not do that—he knows my feelings very well. Because these sergeants are in Connacht, in any of the five counties of that province, they have done very hard work; many of them have degrees but not one of them has been called for interview. As a Connacht man, I think there is something wrong with that. I am sure the Minister will not mind my pointing out the fact and asking him to tell me why.
There are only two complaints I have received in this connection. The first is that a garda who is recommended by his superior officer on a number of occasions to go before an interview board feels a sense of grievance if, after numerous appearances before such a board, he finds he is consistently turned down. That may be a reflection on the superior officer concerned rather than on the board. Possibly, the Minister might like to consider that matter because I can well understand that a superior officer may be very slow to say to his men: "I will not recommend you to go before the board." Commanding officers may feel that "Garda So-and-So is a sound enough fellow; he should not be discouraged and he should get at least a chance of an interview and if he does not make the grade, that is his own worry. I shall have at least given him the chance." If commanding officers continue to recommend unsuitable material, it should be brought home to them that they are not acting in the best interests of the Force and the best interests of the individual Garda.
The second complaint I have received is that in certain cases there is a leakage of information after the interview board has met and considered its findings. Here, like Deputy Donnellan, I am speaking only on hearsay which may not have any basis in fact, but, as he says, I am told in certain cases it becomes known that a certain candidate has been ranked No. 4 by the interview board. It subsequently becomes known that on further consideration, the level had been reduced from No. 4 to No. 8. On final consideration, he discovers he is not in the running at all. There may be just a leakage of information that is incorrect, but it is only to be expected that within a comparatively small force, not only information but rumour will spread quickly. If a man who was before an interview board for one of six vacancies and was originally allotted place No. 3 and fell down and finally did not make the grade at all there is a terrible danger that he feels somebody was in a better position than he was——
Mr. Donnellan
He became sour.
——and consequently, that he was not excluded on merit but on certain information that somebody else had. Once that feeling grows in a force, the situation becomes extremely dangerous. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not making any accusations at all because I could not justify any formal accusation of impropriety but I know these feelings are present in the minds of some members of the Force. While I accept unreservedly the Minister's assurance that he will try to ensure that justice is seen to be done, I only mention the matter here so that he may have a possible line of inquiry which he might make and which I hope would restore confidence in the Garda generally and in the whole promotion system.
I am grateful to Deputy Booth for mentioning these two points because they are typical of the sort of misunderstanding that can get abroad. I agree that a man who is sent forward on a couple of occasions to an interview board and does not succeed would be entitled to say that there was something wrong, that either his divisional officers were wrong in sending him forward or that the interview board was wrong in not promoting him. It is not always as simple as that. Very often there is the case where a man is not promoted, not because he is not an excellent man himself, but because there happens to be somebody better. We all know how that sort of thing works and how misapprehensions can arise engendering discontent.
The second matter mentioned is a very natural and human one, a situation where the results of the interview board purport to leak out. Very often, as any of us know who have done examinations, the wildest and most unfounded rumours leak out as regards results. When the actual results come out, there is disappointment for those who, going on the original rumour, thought they were successful and who, as it subsequently transpired, were not. These are all matters which we should look at as closely as we can and try to obviate any source of discontent or grievance that might be liable to flow from them.
As regards Deputy Donnellan and the province of Connacht, I must apologise to the House that I cannot give a categoric reply to the matter that is worrying the Deputy but I think it would be extraordinary if it were true.
Mr. Donnellan
I am told it is.
I know. I can tell the House that when it comes to a question of promotion to the rank of sergeant outside Dublin, every division, that is, every chief superintendent's area, nominates a certain quota to go forward for interview. The area officers are responsible for sending forward the people they think merit interview. Certainly, I can assure Deputy Donnellan that so far as the four or five chief superintendents' areas in Connacht are concerned, they did send forward their quota for interview——
Mr. Donnellan
They did, but they were not called.
I am not in a position to say if Deputy Donnellan is right, but if he is, I should say it could happen but it would be very coincidental and I shall certainly have a look at it and see what the position is.
There is just one other point I would like to raise. The Minister has stated that there are to be 21 inspectors in 23 stations. I take it that two have been left out for a particular reason.
Raheny and Kill-o'-the-Grange. Raheny is been worked from Clontarf and Kill-o'-the Grange from Dalkey.
Is there not a proposal to build some 2,000 houses in Raheny area so that it will become a very large and important suburban area in due course ?
Another matter I should like the Minister to explain is this crime prevention inspector. I gather he will have very special duties. Will he be senior to the inspectors in the different stations and be able to direct them on certain ways of crime prevention or will he simply be of equal status and able to make recommendations to the superintendent, chief superintendent or Commissioner? This is a new job and I should like the Minister to explain what this man's power is to enforce any regulations on crime prevention.
The Minister did refer very briefly to accommodation and in that respect in my constituency we have three barracks. A new one is to be built in Crumlin and there is good barracks already in another side of Crumlin but in Terenure and Rathmines the accommodation is extremely poor. I certainly think there is not a room in Rathmines or Terenure of which you would say: "There is suitable accommodation and you are the inspector in charge of this barracks." I know there are plans to build houses but what I do not know is how these plans will affect these two older barracks in my constituency and I should like some information of that point from the Minister.
To take the last point mentioned by Deputy Lemass first, I fully agree that accommodation in Rathmines is not what it ought to be.
Could we build?
We have taken steps to replace the accommodation. A site has been procured in Rathmines and we are proceeding as rapidly as possible in providing a new station there.
When?
On the point of the proposal to appoint a crime prevention officer, the officer will be required among other things to make a study of crime prevention methods, to advise firms and individuals on the best methods of guarding against house breaking and loss of property, to lecture members of the force on crime prevention or detection generally. That will be a special role and he will not be in the chain of command above or below a particular area inspector but will be given the special job of making a study of crime prevention and advising both the force and the public on methods of prevention of crime.
On the other point mentioned by Deputy Lemass, Raheny, I want to make it clear that this reorganisation about which I am talking is an administrative job and, in the existing administrative set up, it is better to administer Raheny from Clontarf and Kill-o'-the-Grange from Dalkey but if at any time population basis changes render that necessary, different adjustments can be made and there is a margin of seven inspectors on whom we can draw.