Deputy T. Lynch has given notice that he wishes to raise the subject matter of Questions 46 and 47 on the Order Paper of 28th February, 1962.
Adjournment Debate. - Waterford-Tramore Bus and Rail Passengers.
I should like the Ceann Comhairle to assist me in this. I asked the Minister for Transport and Power two question and I am raising the subject-matter of them tonight. I know I am allowed to speak for about 20 minutes on a question. Does that mean that if I am raising two questions, I may speak for 40 minutes?
The Deputy is too naive altogether.
I have no experience of this.
One question is all that is usually raised. I have allowed the two questions because they are on the same matter and they will be dealt with as one question. I shall allow the Deputy 20 minutes.
On 28th February, I asked the Minister for Transport and Power what was the number of farepaying passengers carried by C.I.E. bus service on the Waterford-Tramore service last year. The next question asked the Minister the number of persons carried each year by C.I.E. on the Waterford and Tramore Railway from 1954 to the last day of the existence of that railway.
The Minister said that statistics of the number of passengers using particular rail or road services are not published "nor have they been furnished to me pursuant to any direction given by me under Section 34 (5) of the Transport Act, 1950." I then asked the Minister to tell us "how are we ever to find out how many persons travelled on this railway if he refuses to publish the figures. He goes around the country making speeches and telling everybody how many people travelled"—I was interrupted then by a former Parliamentary Secretary. Then I asked if the Minister would tell us why he would not give us the figures and the Minister replied: "I have given any amount of help". I said that the Minister had not. I said: "I have asked the Minister how many people travel on this railroad and he said only a small number more than travelled on the railroad were carried by bus."
Later, I asked the Minister to give me the figure and the Minister said he had already given me the figure. He had not; he never mentioned a figure. He said the background to this matter was that because of the public agitation stirred up by a few people in a number of areas in which railways were to be closed, he carefully collected the figures for a short period in order to indicate the general position in regard to passengers and also in order to indicate the result of C.I.E. making changes. He had no intention, he said, of starting to answer long, detailed questions as to the number of passengers carried on this or that section of the railway. Were he to do so, there would have to be a special staff in C.I.E. and he should have to have a special staff to compile the figures.
That is very enlightening. But only a fortnight before, in answer to a question by Deputy Ormonde—perhaps it was a prompted question— asking the Minister if he would state in regard to the Waterford-Tramore bus service whether there had been any improvement in the financial return and the number of passengers carried during the past year as compared with the old rail service, the Minister replied:
I assume that the Deputy is referring to the substitute bus service provided by C.I.E. I am informed by the Board that the operation of the service during the year ended the 31st December, 1961, showed an operating profit; the former railway was operating at a loss at the time of closure.
The number of bus passengers carried by C.I.E. in the period 1st April-30th October, 1961, showed a small increase on the number of rail passengers carried in the same period in the preceding year.
I asked:
Would the Minister tell us what the figure is?
And the Official Report then continues:
Mr. Childers: The actual figure of C.I.E. bus passenger fares?
Mr. T. Lynch: Yes.
Mr. Childers: It is only a very small increase but, if the services arranged privately are added to that, the total number of people who travelled was 40,000 greater in the period April-October, 1961, than in the period April-October, 1960.
There is a private bus service running to Tramore with which the Minister has nothing to do but the Minister, evidently, is able to have compiled or some estimate made of, the number who travel on that service when he says about 40,000. He knows, according to that, the number of people who travel on the service and he refuses to give that figure. He says that a special section would have to be set up in C.I.E. and he did not intend to do so. That is stated at Column 735 of the Dáil Report of 28th February, 1962. I did not ask the Minister to answer long detailed questions. I put down two questions asking the Minister for two figures which, according to his answers to Deputy Ormonde, he has. If he has not, these figures in the answers he gave to Deputy Ormonde are not correct. What grounds had he for giving Deputy Ormonde these figures? Will the Minister answer that?
I want the Minister to give me the figure he mentioned in reply to Deputy Ormonde, the number of bus passengers carried by C.I.E. in the period 1st April-30th October, 1961, which, he said, showed a small increase on the number of passengers carried by C.I.E. in the same period of the preceding year. Would the Minister be kind enough at this late hour to tell us what these figures are? I think I am entitled to be told. The Minister has practically refused to answer that question. I do not want to labour the matter but if the Minister does not answer the question, I believe I am entitled to put down a further Parliamentary Question or to consider with the Leader of my Party what steps could be taken to get the Minister to give this information.
The Minister has ducked his head several times here and has said that the Deputy should write to C.I.E. Deputies have a right to put down questions to Ministers, especially to the Minister for Transport and Power, if those Deputies want to find out information relating to our transport services. It is not right for the Minister to tell a Deputy to write to C.I.E. when a Deputy asks the Minister for a figure that C.I.E. has already supplied to the Minister.
I am asking the Minister to give me these two figures: the number of passengers carried by C.I.E. in the period 1st April-30th October, 1961 which, he said, showed a small increase on the number of rail passengers carried in the same period in the preceding year. The reference to Deputy Ormonde's question is the Official Report, columns 93 and 94 of 14th February, 1962.
I think the Deputy misunderstood what I said on the occasion when he asked the questions previously. One of his questions implied that I should start giving lists of the numbers of passengers carried on the Waterford-Tramore line for a considerable number of years back. As I indicated at that time, if we were to start that kind of fractionalisation of information in regard to any of the State companies we would, first of all, take away from them the power to carry on their business from day to day without interference either from me or from the Oireachtas. Secondly, we would encourage all kinds of pressure groups to try to get privileges for themselves in one area at the expense of another area.
I would refer the Deputy to the address given by the Taoiseach to the Institute of Public Administration on the position of State companies and their relation to the Oireachtas and to the Minister in charge of the company. I would also refer him to my own remarks on the occasion of the Estimate, including the stage of the debate on the Estimate at which I gave a very full account of how I regarded my relationship to the State companies and, in turn, the relationship of the Oireachtas to myself and the Government. If the Deputy studies those two documents he will see the need for not giving excessive information when asked for on day to day activities which simply results in pressure groups being established and State companies losing money and becoming inefficient to the detriment of the whole community.
Particulars of the number of passengers carried on the C.I.E. bus service between Waterford and Tramore in the calendar year 1961 are: 403,836 compared with 424,000 carried by the C.I.E. rail service in the year ended 31st March, 1959. In the period April to October, 1961, there was a slight increase of 559 bus passengers over the number carried by rail in the directly comparable period in 1960—an increase of 559 on some 300,000 passengers. In addition to that, C.I.E. have estimated that 40,000 passengers were carried in the same period by the private bus service between Waterford and Tramore and on an annual basis the figure given is 60,000 passengers. My purpose in giving the figures to the Deputy was not that they had any absolute importance. Figures can vary from year to year, particularly in areas like Waterford and Tramore, because of weather and climatic conditions; when there happens to be good weather there would be a variation in the week-end and mid-week figures. I gave the Deputy the figures to show there would be no collapse in the service, that there was no evidence that widespread inconvenience had been caused. When a railway service ceases, agitation is inevitable in this and other countries and I gave the figures——
The Minister gave no figures.
I gave a great deal of assistance in this House to Deputies who were worried about the position. That does not mean I intend to give fractional information in regard to all the State companies and their activities. I was doing it for a specific purpose. There is nothing unusual in what happened in regard to the Waterford-Tramore service.
The fare increased by 9d. per head.
When rail services go, the bus services are usually found to be reasonably satisfactory. It has become the normal practice in a great many countries for rail services to close where a bus service is more convenient and less costly. A great many people travel on buses who did not travel previously on the train because they can board the bus at more stopping places. Another common feature is that the time taken by the bus, even with a greater number of stops, is not very much greater than the time taken by the train. All these changes from one form of transport to another that are taking place are normal. I was trying to help the Deputy in respect of the agitation in relation to the closing of the railway service by just giving some limited figures with a limited value showing there had been no collapse. I indicated the same thing in relation to the Cahirciveen-Farranfore line.
I beg the Minister's pardon. In none of these cases did he mention the figures. Were it not for that fact we would not be here now.
The number of passengers taken was steady. I hope I have given the Deputy all the information he requires. There would be no use in my going back and giving the number of passengers carried since 1954.
The figures are in the Minister's office and for spite he would not give them.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.50 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 14th March, 1962.