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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Mar 1962

Vol. 194 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 34—Science and Art.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonófar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31 ú lá de Mhárta, 1962, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais na bhForas Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon, le haghaidh Seirbhísí Ilghnéitheacha áirithe Oideachais agus Cultúir, agus Ildeontais-i-gCabhair.

This Supplementary Estimate is merely a token Vote to enable savings on various subheads to be applied to increase the grant-in-aid to the National Library for the purchase of books, etc., and to provide a grant-in-aid to the Catholic Workers' College.

The increase of £1,000 in grant-in-aid to the National Library is required for the purchase of the Gormanston Register. It is the entry book of the title deeds of the Preston family. I understand it is the oldest surviving manuscript in the form of a register dealing with lands in Ireland. It is a 14th century manuscript. It is of great interest for place names and for history of the Dublin, Meath and Louth areas.

The grant-in-aid of £2,000 to the Catholic Workers' College is a new provision. The college which was founded in 1948 by the Jesuit Fathers provides courses for trade union students, management students, supervisors and foremen and various other groups. As the college constitutes an important centre of adult education I thought it desirable that it should be provided with the minimum of State aid necessary to enable it to continue its work. It needed the aid so, this year, it is getting a new grant-in-aid of £2,000.

The mention of the Gormanston Register which, the Minister tells us, the National Library is to acquire, brings a certain analogous matter to my mind. First of all, I congratulate the Minister on enabling the Library to acquire this manuscript because these kinds of family documents are very liable to be lost and they constitute a very important part of the social history of our country. I think a great many similar documents are in imminent peril of being lost.

I remember salvaging a box of documents in a country house in Ireland, which the Library subsequently acquired, which made a very real contribution to a strange part of the history of this country, of which I had personal knowledge. If the papers had not been found and finally deposited with the National Library, that side of the story might have perished altogether, the story of a landlord. I remember people saying, when I was young, that their grandfathers had knelt down and thanked God the day he was murdered for that he was the worst man who had ever walked the world. Yet, when that box of documents was opened, an entirely different version of his life was told.

Looking back on those days, I have very little doubt now that he was a very good man who was anxious to do what was right by his people, but, as good people often are, he was wholly misunderstood, cruelly misrepresented and finally murdered. That is a story into which I do not propose to go now. Still, these old family documents constitute a very vital and essential part of the social history of our people. Here is the point I want to make today. I believe that in the files of the Land Commission there is an immense mass of documents relating to the old estates they took over under the first Land Act and all the way down since the eighties. They have never been catalogued. I do not believe anybody knows what is in them.

We are all conscious of the perennial outbursts of activity that take place in Government Departments when somebody takes it into his head to clean up the place. The files become too numerous, accommodation is overcrowded and suddenly an heroic decision is taken that everything more than 20 years old is junk. The Land Commission have shown a very prudent reluctance to do that for which they have sometimes been criticised. I think they were wise and right to have held their records as long as they have. I do not know how far back they have held them but I think the National Library ought to collaborate with the Land Commission to get these documents catalogued and either preserved or at least microfilmed so that a complete record of them can be kept.

I imagine it is almost true to say that practically every acre of land in Ireland has at some time or other passed through the hands of the Land Commission since we bought the last of the landlords out under the 1923 and subsequent Land Acts. A record of that ought to be preserved and of all that went before that, most of which is history contained in the rent books and the records of the old estates. I had a certain interest, not because of any family connection but because we happened to be tenants of it, in the Dillon Estate in the West of Ireland which, as some Deputies in the West know, stretches from Castlerea to Charlestown.

The papers of that estate have been lost to us. They were taken to Ditchley and I pursued them there and hoped to get them for the National Library and then I found that through some subsequent will, they had been left to some obscure museum in Portsmouth or Plymouth. I imagine the title they have acquired to them is of such kind that it is highly unlikely they will ever be recovered to this country. They relate exclusively to land and homes in Roscommon and Mayo and it seems odd that they should have found their ultimate resting place in Portsmouth or Plymouth, where nobody can have the slightest interest in them but whither any scholar who wants to consult them must go. I suggest that in cases like that the National Library should be facilitated to microfilm such documents and bring back the record for installation here.

The next point I want to make is that I believe there is a mass of material in the Land Commission at the present time which should be catalogued and either preserved or microfilmed for the records of the National Library. The trouble about this sort of proposition is that very few people give a damn and the great danger is that because there is no proper preservation of that record, just through the process of inertia, nobody does anything about it. The Minister for Education is a young and zealous person and he should be concerned for the social history of Ireland. It is a thing a great many people ignore and are not interested in but it is the very fabric of the lives of our people and one of the few good things the landlords left, these exhaustive records. We should not be such fools as to suffer these treasures to perish simply because we associate them with a source of which we have bitter memories.

The other point I want to mention is that the Catholic Workers' College needs Government help. It should be given that help but I cannot help registering a note of regret. I always regret when I see a voluntary undertaking which has been carrying on under its own steam successfully having to fall into the category of the multitude of enterprises which have become partially, if not wholly, dependent on Government aid. I should have thought that the Catholic Workers' College here could have looked to the trade unions and to the business establishments of the country for such modest funds as they require.

Macra na Feirme and the Irish Countrywomen's Association could have done the same thing but they got State aid also. I think the Deputy was the one to recommend it. I think he started it in the case of the Irish Countrywomen's Association.

Yes, but there is a distinction. The problem of the Irish Countrywomen's Association was that they had no funds for organising. I said to them: "I shall not recommend the Government to give you a penny for general funds." They said: "If we could get organisers to communicate to the people the kind of work we are doing, we would not want Government funds. We can raise all the money we need to carry on our work without Government assistance but the one difficulty we have is to get people to go around organising branches. It is not only a question of paying them a bare living wage but also of paying their travelling expenses." I did ask the Government to make a sum of money available to them, on the understanding that their only obligation would be to give me, or the Minister for Agriculture for the time being, a certificate at the end of the year stating that they spent that money on organisation. They have no help at all other than the peripatetic organisers. I think there is a distinction. I do not grudge the Workers' College this money: if they need it, I think they should get it. I merely register regret that it cannot be carried on by voluntary effort where you have trade unions and an employers' federation, both of whom ought to recognise the value of this work, and the sum involved is very trivial compared with the resources of the bodies to whom I now refer.

The great danger is that the moment grants of this kind fall to be made by Government Departments sooner or later the Comptroller and Auditor General or somebody brings pressure to bear on the Department to supervise the expenditure of the money. When I was asking the Government to provide funds for the Irish Countrywomen's Association, I erected a ten-foot fence all around the proposal in order to ensure that nobody would require me to interfere in the internal affairs of the I.C.A. and it was specifically set out that their only obligation was to hand the Minister a certificate stating: "We spent that money on organising."

I trust that if this grant-in-aid becomes an annual feature, we may rest assured that the Minister will not be required to take the College under his control and supervision and that it will continue to be, as it at present is, a wholly independent institution working along lines laid down by itself. I am not without hope that the trade union movement and the Employers' Federation will combine to undertake this burden themselves and thus render it unnecessary in future for the Department of Education to make funds available for this purpose, excellent though this purpose is.

I agree that the value of the College lies largely in its independence and both the administration of the College and I were reluctant to arrange in this way to help them. However, it is a grant-in-aid with no intention on my part that the College should ever come under the Department of Education. They have other sources of income from fees. The more successful they are, the more help they will need from outside. They have associate membership which perhaps does include a number of people in the trade union movement and management. They get help from people who become associate members and subscribe fees without attending courses. I do not think there is any grant from the bodies as such.

On the question of historic documents, I understand the law is that we are entitled to inspect and photograph any document which may be going out of the country. We have no right to stop it being exported, but when a licence is sought, the Director of the National Library has the right to inspect and take a photograph of it. This document was purchased in England at a public auction. Of course, the Library has to compete at an auction with collectors. Sometimes collectors are very wealthy and very interested. We were lucky this time to get the register. I do not know what treasures may lie in the Land Commission but I undertake to examine the matter.

Vote put and agreed to.
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