Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Mar 1962

Vol. 194 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the motion:

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—(Deputy Dillon).

Mr. Crinion

I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister a situation in my parish where the same telegraph poles are carrying telegraph lines from two post offices. This is happening on the line from Kinnegad to Ballinabrackey which is automatic. There are two houses on that line and they have to get their line from Castlejordan as that is not automatic. The line for Castlejordan is in front of Ballinabrackey post office with the result that the two houses have to wait quite a long time to get a telephone call when their neighbour down the road can, by dialling, get the service. It seems strange that that should occur.

Another matter I wish to bring to the notice of the Minister is the postal service at Tyrellspass, Rochfortbridge and Miltownpass. The delivery van comes from Kilbeggan each morning and leaves the post in these three towns but will not take out any post. They maintain there is not sufficient post to warrant delivery at this time. The people there feel that if the service were provided there would be sufficient post to warrant the delivery man delaying just a little longer to take up a small bag and put it into his van. It seems a hardship that people have to post early in the afternoon when they could post at night time or later in the evening to catch the post the following morning.

I was glad to see from the Minister's speech that the amount in the Post Office Savings Bank had increased by £1 million last year. I think all of us would agree that next to the piggy bank the savings bank and savings certificates are appropriate in encouraging children to save. I would like to see more advertising done. I know there are advertisements in the post offices but I should like to see advertisements in the newspapers as well to encourage children to save. They are hardly going to go to a bank at an early age. This is the first bank that is open to them. The Post Office is also providing a good service in relation to prize bonds Those two services alone are bringing in a lot more than what the Minister for Finance would be looking for in a National Loan. I think the two services have brought in something like £32 million.

In regard to postmen, where the occupant of a pensionable post retires in a country area and needs to be replaced by a qualified man, that qualified man would usually be a boy who had been delivering telegrams and then been put on the postal service. In a small place like Kinnegad, Longwood and Carbury, for instance, there are very few telegrams coming through and consequently you do not employ a telegraph boy. Therefore nobody can qualify for the post. I would urge the Minister that when a temporary man has been filling it to the satisfaction of his Department and the satisfaction of the people to whom he is delivering the post, the Minister should consider making him permanent. He is doing exactly the same work as his predecessor but he does not get the same facilities. When he retires he will just go out on the ordinary old age pension because his post is not pensionable. That is a hardship on that man.

I wish to congratulate the Television Authority on the good work they have done over the past three months. We have all been very pleased with the service which has resulted. The Authority have realised that there was a challenge to them which they have met very satisfactorily. They have been depending on advertising from our own firms here so they had to produce a good service. This service had to come from very limited resources. U.T.V. have resources up to £80 million and the B.B.C. have something like half of that. I believe our own Television Authority are providing as good a service if not a better one than that being provided by the other two corporations. They have been looking to the future. They realise that on the Continent and in America, the 625 line is regarded as better, but in order not to inflict hardship on our own viewers who are looking in on the other two programmes they decided to provide the 405 service, leaving themselves the option to change over at some future date. However, for the people in the south of Ireland, the 625 line service will be second to none.

I should like Telefís Éireann to go down the country now and again, perhaps once a week, and do a feature on amateur plays. Drama is becoming quite popular in the rural areas. Even in remote halls in the heart of the country drama groups are putting on plays. Some of them are quite good. If Telefís Éireann filmed some of these plays it would give a tremendous incentive to people to produce exceptionally well. Someone from Telefís Éireann could go down and watch a performance. Later in the week, if his report were favourable, a film could be made of the play, or of extracts from it. That would bring many more on to the television screen. It would provide encouragement to these groups and would also provide them with some money.

I remember years ago when every Sunday night Radio Éireann produced an Abbey play. Most people looked forward to that feature. The Abbey players are renowned. They have played on Broadway and on the Continent and everywhere they have been acclaimed. I should like to see more of these plays and players on television.

I should like, also, to see a programme produced by the Department of Agriculture. Native films on Telefís Éireann will help our tourist industry. Our scenery is very photogenic. Killarney is famed in song and story. The scenery of the West and parts of the Midlands is without compare.

I compliment the Minister and his Department on the good work they have been doing. It is a matter for congratulation that the Department have been paying their way for the past five years.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present.

Mr. Rooney

I was surprised to learn from the Minister that there is a deficit of £1,000,000 in his Department. His Department is, generally speaking, regarded as a profitmaking concern. It is unfortunate that it should not be making a profit now, though it does seem to be improving.

The Minister mentioned that the minimum charge for a sealed letter will be 4d. and a heavier letter can travel at the same rate. Apparently it is only the minimum weight that will be affected. This charge will be a heavy burden on those who use the postal service extensively. A business concern with a bill at present at £400— there are quite a number of them; some may have bills as high as £4,000 —will have to pay £133 extra in future for postage. This impost will not hit the casual who writes an odd letter. It is business firms that will have to bear the brunt of it. In addition to that extra charge for postage, there will be an extra charge of £1 10/- on telephone rentals. That will be a heavy imposition on the private individual who makes, perhaps two calls in a day, or a dozen calls in the week. He will be harder hit than the business firm making 100 calls in the day.

We should examine the position of auxiliary postmen. These men get their names and photographs in the papers after 45 years' service. They are then thrown on the scrapheap, with an old age pension, or some other pittance to keep them alive. It is time some superannuation scheme was devised for these men. It is not beyond the capacity of our officials to devise a suitable scheme. They are one of the few classes now of regular workers for whom there is no pension scheme.

It may be argued that some of them work only four hours in the day, or possibly six. They start at eight o'clock in the morning and finish at midday or two o'clock in the afternoon. Whatever time it is, they must perform these duties. They must be available every morning six mornings in the week to provide this public service. It has been argued that if they finish at 12 o'clock, 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock, they can take up other part-time employment if such is available. But it is not always possible for these men to find suitable other employment near home after a hard day's work up to finishing time. Finishing time varies in different places, according to the circumstances.

Those postmen may have gone out early in the morning, may have been drenched to the skin and braved the storm. They have to cover their rounds within a specified time. They are expected to follow a rigid time-table in the matter of deliveries, and the public expect them to be there on time. I am emphasising these points to show these men are giving public service. They are considered to be in part-time employment and are paid so much per hour. Surely a pension scheme could be devised for them based on each man's particular earnings and whether he works four hours, six hours or full time? By "full time" I mean that he works what is regarded as a full 40-hour week or whatever the figure would be.

The time has come when a pension scheme should be devised for these auxiliary postmen instead of having them retire with a few words of praise after 45 years' service when they are no longer able to go on. Other workers who do not have to work so hard have pension schemes and can retire at 65, but in the case of the auxiliary postman it is a question of whether his health will allow him to go on until he reaches 70 and qualifies for the old age pension. We find there is a great number of auxiliary postmen with ten, 20 and 25 years' service who have no prospect of getting a pension. Most people in the public service have the benefit of pensions.

I notice the Minister's statement that fewer telephones were connected this year than last. In other words, there seems to be a falling back in the connection of telephones. The previous speaker mentioned that at present 10,000 people were waiting for telephones. I am glad to see from the Minister's statement that he intends on this occasion to apply for £3½ million compared with an average of £2 million in previous years. That is a good investment. No Minister for Finance should refuse the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs desiring to invest money in the telephone service. Such investment not only improves the telephone service itself but improves trade, commerce and agriculture generally. I hope the Minister will spend that £3½ million during the coming year and will provide more and larger exchanges.

At present more than 200 people are awaiting telephones in County Dublin. There are 60 applicants in the Rush area. They cannot be told when it is likely they will have the service, but they are told that the existing exchange facilities are working to full capacity and that if extra subscribers were taken on those already on the exchange would be deprived of the service. I should like the Minister and his technicians to go into this in more detail. I shall discuss the position in Rush, because the pattern there is the same as in all areas where people are waiting for the service.

First, I think these 60 applicants should be classified as to whether they are shopkeepers, farmers, professional people or retired people. Then the average number of calls per day these people are likely to make should be worked out. Some of them might use the telephone on only three occasions in a whole day, whereas others might use it 50 times a day. Therefore, extra subscribers could be taken on if they were not likely to make much use of the phone and would not upset the existing service until such time as more modern equipment could be provided and all the applicants in the area were catered for.

Deputy Donegan mentioned the ordinary mouthpiece provided, which is an extremely heavy and substantial instrument. I understand that a lighter Swedish type is available for those people prepared to pay a substantial price for it. I am open to correction on this, but I believe there is a regulation which prohibits the subscriber replacing the cumbersome, heavy instrument with the light and much easier to use Swedish one. I need not describe it. It is a combined dialling, speaking and listening apparatus.

Mr. Hilliard

We would not object to that at all if it was an improved type.

Mr. Rooney

Do the subscribers have to get permission to connect?

Mr. Hilliard

They would have to say they were doing it, but we would not object.

Mr. Rooney

I understand there was some regulation that they were not really free to substitute these instruments for what is officially provided. I have dealt with the increase in the number of applicants on the waiting list to 10,000. A very special effort should be made to provide them with the service and the classification as suggested for the Rush exchange area could be applied to those 10,000 subscribers in order to see how many of them could be connected.

There are others for whom the telephone service is very important. They may be engaged in business and they would only tie up the service if their calls began to go through exchanges which were not up to sufficient capacity. Naturally they must await their turn. In Dublin County that situation is growing in several areas. There are at least four exchange areas in County Dublin where there are about 25 applicants awaiting connection. There are 60 applicants in the Rush exchange area alone. Something must be done about improving the equipment in such exchanges. I feel sure the equipment in the Rush exchange would be very useful if it were dismantled and taken to an area where there would not be so many subscribers. A larger set of equipment could, in turn, be provided at Rush.

The same would apply to other areas where the equipment is now incapable of catering for the heavy volume of telephone traffic. I was glad to see that the automatic telex system seems to be expanding, albeit very slowly. There were only about 20 extra telex sets provided in the past couple of years. This is very important, particularly having regard to the desire to increase our export trade. In fact most of these telex systems are being operated by people who have trading activities with the Continent of Europe and, with the prospect of the Common Market and the probability then of a considerable amount of inter-communication and trade between the member countries, this telex system seems to be the answer as far as telecommunication is concerned.

It should be encouraged and if there is any way of inducing exporters to acquire telex sets all the better because it will certainly assist us to expand our trade and sell our goods if we can have direct communication with traders on the Continent who desire to trade with us. We are anxious to increase our trade with a number of countries but figures have shown that in a number of countries our trade has been falling. Improved communication, public relations and salesmanship could remedy that situation.

After severe storms in this country thousands of people are left without a telephone service, mainly because trees fall across the wires and because other damage is done. All that inconvenience lends support to the idea that telephone lines should be put underground as far as possible. It would be desirable to encourage this underground cable system, particularly between the larger centres.

Deputy Tully mentioned something about post office appointments. I understood a few years ago, after the Baltinglass racket, that arrangements were made to prevent any interference with the appointment of postmasters— that they would be selected and appointed without any reference to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. Hilliard

That is not so. The appointments are made by the Minister.

Mr. Rooney

I understood that from that time the appointment of a subpostmaster would not be referred to the Minister. I gather now that what happens is that the applications are examined, selections made and finally the matter goes to the Minister either to accept or to reject the selections which have been made.

Mr. Hilliard

There is no rejection.

Mr. Sweetman

He can reject.

Mr. Hilliard

In theory the Minister is responsible for the making of appointments and the Minister could tomorrow morning abolish the system and revert to the one which was there previously and accept the full responsibility. Even in the present system he does accept full responsibility no matter what the outcome is.

Mr. Tully

Even if there happen to be three in opposition?

Mr. Hilliard

No matter what happens, whether they get arbitration or not.

Mr. Rooney

I am glad to hear that. Possibly Deputies may have a chance to make representations in respect of suitable and deserving applicants.

Mr. Hilliard

Representations that come to me have never been passed on by me to the Board.

Mr. Rooney

Then it would be a waste of time for a Deputy to recommend a person to the Minister.

Mr. Tully

There will be others making representations.

Mr. Rooney

In the course of his statement, the Minister mentioned that there are 48 extra cross-channel lines provided via Belfast but unless we are to have a completely new system—and the Minister did mention the microwave system—across the Irish Sea it seems we must face the fact that we will have to lay a submarine cable. I feel sure the technical men have examined that question of a submarine cable across the Irish Sea in order to relieve the telecommunication burden between the two countries. It is very gratifying to see by the Minister's speech that there is a great prospect of an internal microwave system which would improve the service very rapidly.

The Minister also mentioned that deposits in the Savings Bank are more or less static. People are not being encouraged to put more of their money in the Post Office. Saving at the moment stand at a little over £80 million. It is a sizable amount. Most of that money comes from people who have deposited very small amounts. I doubt whether there would be much money on the limit for deposit in the post office which at the moment is £1,200. I doubt if there would be many accounts with £1,200. I think this £85 million is made up mostly by people who have small Post Office Savings Bank Accounts.

I consider that the interest on that money, especially when it is in small amounts and considering its value to the State, should be increased. An effort should be made to pay more than the existing rate of interest to depositors. Many people have thought so little of the interest available to them in the post office that they have invested in what they consider another gilt-edged security, namely, the Prize Bonds.

Instead of waiting to accept the annual interest on the money on deposit in the Post Office they have decided instead to take it out and to take a chance by investing in Prize Bonds from which they get no interest but have a chance of a lucky draw. I believe that if the interest on Post Office Savings Bank accounts were made more attractive, people would continue to leave their money there. Savings Certificates are certainly very attractive for people who are prepared to wait until the date of maturity.

The Minister did not give us much information about the activities of the Savings Committee. Tribute was paid to them in the past for the very useful work they have done and the encouragement they have given to people to save. The Savings Committee is considered to be very useful from the point of view of encouraging thrift amongst people who have money which might otherwise be wasted instead of being made available to the State for national investment.

Some day or other, we shall have to examine the whole system of payment of subpostmasters. Only for the fact that many of them are engaged in other activities, usually running a little shop along with their post office, they could not possibly give the service. They could not afford to keep their post office open on the small allowance given to them to run the business and pay assistants.

According as our social services expand, these subpostmasters are called upon to give extra service. In parts of the city, for instance, you will see long queues of people on the first Tuesday of every month, waiting for payment of children's allowances. That service has been imposed on the subpostmasters. Similarly, they have to provide a telephone service where there are no automatic exchanges. They have to issue wireless licences, apart from postal orders, money orders, stamps and so on.

The main thing is that subpostmasters have to employ assistants in order to give this service. The amount of money made available to the subpostmasters is so limited that many post office assistants are very badly paid. Certainly they are not sufficiently paid for the time and the amount of service they give the public. Therefore, some time or other, we shall have to alter the system that exists at the moment whereby subpostmasters are required to provide so many services and are allowed such a small amount of money, in order to ensure that these services will efficiently be given—and they are efficiently given because there is a very regular inspection from the Post Office. The inspectors walk into those offices and take over and check everything, and rightly so. Post offices have to be operated efficiently in order that the inspectors will be satisfied. They are kept up to date by frequent inspections.

We were to have a central sorting office for this city. I should like to hear from the Minister just what are the prospects of having it very soon. This city has grown very large. A central sorting office is desirable as soon as it can be provided. I know that everything cannot be done at once but it seems that a sorting office at the moment is very desirable.

That brings me to a point regarding Christmas sorting. Something should be done in an organised way regarding the sorting of the Christmas mail. If I know it rightly, what happens at the moment is that some few weeks before Christmas a number of schoolboys or, if you like, a number of juveniles, are recruited to assist with the sorting of the mail during the Christmas rush. At the same time, there are family men who are registered as unemployed and who might be able and willing to work the few days or the few weeks in the Post Office. Preference should be given to such men rather than to schoolboys. It would be all very well to bring in schoolboys if we had already provided for the unemployed family man who could do with the pay available for this type of work.

There was something which I wished to say in relation to the television service but I shall leave it over for the moment.

Mr. Dolan

Ba mhaith liom cupla focail a rá ar an Meastachán seo. From the very lengthy speech the Minister has made it is evident to everybody why it is necessary to provide this money. There have been increases in salaries, wages and allowances, which account for quite a big slice. The Estimate provides an opportunity for people to make reference to various branches of the Post Office and the various sections under the jurisdiction of the Minister. I am glad to see that a sum of money is allocated to the renovation and provision of buildings and sites. I know that in many places there is a need to replace the old inadequate and dilapidated buildings. In particular, the county town in the constituency from which I come is very much in need of a new post office. That was placed on the long finger for quite a while. We are hoping that in the near future something will be done to remedy that situation.

I should like to make some reference to Radio Éireann. While the programmes are balanced, at the same time, I think that very often some of the programmes come on the air at an inopportune time. Judging from the country districts, there is no great need for having so much of the time of Radio Éireann devoted to symphony concerts. I realise that the allotment of time to these various programmes is probably not a matter for the Minister, but I should like to refer to the matter here and now.

Mr. Sweetman

I know one person who would object to that.

Mr. Dolan

I beg the Deputy's pardon.

Mr. Sweetman

It is only a private joke between myself and the Minister.

Mr. Dolan

One of the greatest national blunders ever made in this country in recent times was the sabotaging of our short wave station when it had almost come into existence. Radio in modern times is a very important medium whereby a nation can get its view across to neighbouring countries. We in Ireland were very badly handicapped by virtue of the fact that we were unable to get our national programmes across to our exiles. It is true to say that even in the cities of London, Birmingham and other places, where there are huge concentrations of Irish exiles, unfortunately they are unable to listen to our Irish programmes. Indeed, they are unable to enjoy the many Irish programmes which our radio provides for local listeners. The same thing applies to our exiles in America.

When, in the month of September, we are faced with trying to broadcast the all-Ireland hurling and football finals across the world, we are at the mercy of some outside agency so that we can ensure that our exiles will at least hear these finals. That, I think, is a very important link for a mother country to maintain with her exiles. It was a national catastrophe that the short wave station was sabotaged at a time when we had actually secured an international wavelength. I do not know whether it could be possible to remedy that situation now or whether, in view of the advances made by television in recent years, it would be worth the cost. However, I think the cost should not be a deterrent. If it were at all possible to start even now, it would, from the national point of view, be very desirable.

I am not so well versed in regard to Telefís Éireann getting their programmes across to our exiles or whether they are able to beam that far but I want heartily to congratulate them and the Minister concerned. I can safely say that the Minister has carved for himself a niche in the history of this country by his dynamic driving power in seeing to it that we, a small and young nation with very limited resources, would not come in "at the heel of the hunt", so to speak, but would take our rightful place in providing our people with the most up-to-date way of entertainment and raise the prestige of our country in the eyes of our own people and those of our exiles.

The visual aids are very important methods of getting one's message across to the people in our country, our exiles and those who are watching us in other lands. We should ensure that we will maintain the very high standard which has already been set by Telefís Éireann.

The choice of emblem for Telefís Éireann was a very laudable one as it spans thousands of years of our country's history. The Irish language should get, as I think it is getting, fair representation on the programmes. I am not a constant viewer but I must compliment the service for the programme in which a ventriloquist uses both Irish and English. It is a very laudable and very effective way of getting across the language to our people, many of whom are now bilingual. It does not bore anyone and it is one of the many ways in which a national television service can help to uplift the morale of the country. It can also do much to ensure our survival as a nation.

Every effort should be made to see that nothing that would take from our greatness as a nation would be allowed to appear on any of those programmes. I could mention programmes for national schools, colleges and so forth but I think it will suffice to refer briefly to the matter at present and leave it until the other Estimate comes up.

I realise that this question of telephones is a very big matter for any Minister to face because in recent years the demand for public and private telephones has been more or less phenomenal. In view of the many services now sponsored by co-operative creameries and various other institutions, the telephone service has become very important and is used to a great extent by the farmers.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. Tuesday, 3rd April, 1962.