Vol. 195 No. 8
asked the Minister for Justice if he will give an estimate of the number of premises in the State which are at present used as restaurants or refreshment houses, excluding hotels and guest houses registered with Bord Fáilte which have a hotel licence or a publican's licence.
20.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will give an estimate of the number of premises in the State which are, or could be, structurally adapted for use as restaurants or refreshment houses and, subject to compliance with the other requirements of section 15 of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1962, would entitle their owners to receive a licence for the sale of intoxicating liquor of all kinds on the premises in accordance with the provisions of that section if it became law.
21.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will give an estimate of the additional number of premises in the State which it is anticipated will become licensed to sell intoxicating liquor with a substantial meal in accordance with the provisions of section 15 of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1962, if that section becomes law.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 19 to 21 together.
I assume that the first Question, like the other two, is intended to be read in the context of the provisions of Section 15 of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill.
I do not think that I could be expected to attempt to answer such a question as how many premises could be structurally adapted for use as restaurants, since given sufficient money to spend on the job, it would be difficult to find any premises of any kind or condition which could not be so adapted.
Section 15 is very far from providing that a licence to sell intoxicating liquor with a substantial meal can be got for any restaurant. The requirement that the premises must be structurally adapted for use as a restaurant is clearly only a minor one compared with the requirement that the premises must be bona fide and mainly used, not just for any kind of restaurant business, but for supplying substantial meals of a kind that come within a definition set out in the Bill.
The applicant for the licence would have to satisfy the Circuit Court, on sworn evidence, that his premises was one which qualified—it is not a question of the police having to prove the contrary.
Not only must the main business of the premises be the supply of substantial meals costing at least 5/- but the licence, when granted, would apply only to the serving of drinks with meals of this kind.
While I am not prepared to hazard any guess as to the number of restaurants that now exist or that might come into being which could be shown to the satisfaction of the Circuit Court to be doing a business consisting in the main of the serving of substantial meals costing at least 5/-, I do not think that there is any doubt that the number is and would remain very small.
What about the chain of restaurants that is to be set up?
Has the Deputy some information about it? I have not.
The Deputy has.
Would the Minister have any idea as to the number of premises that would qualify under the section?
I do not want to anticipate at Question Time the debate that may take place in the Dáil later but I have stated that, subject to the various qualifications I mentioned I do not think the number will be very large.
The Minister has replied to a supplementary question by Deputy Corish related to the possible number of restaurants which might qualify under the section, if the Bill became law. I should like to know from the Minister if, prior to the introduction of the proposal, he or his Department made any effort to assess the number of restaurants in the country which are outside the Bord Fáilte registration. Has he any idea at all?
We have not made any such attempt because I do not think it would be of any value. The matter was very carefully considered. One of the things that might help to throw some light on the problem is the number of wine licences which were applied for. I want to point out to the Deputy that practically any restaurant proprietor in the country can, by paying £1, get a wine licence. The significant factor in that situation is the small number who have done so.
Surely the Minister and the Government must have had some idea of the number of houses likely to be affected before this proposal was brought in at all? Is it 200,000 or two or what?
I have already given the information that in our estimate the number is small and will continue to remain small.
What does the Minister mean by "small"?
Does the Minister not agree that the number who would apply for a limited wine licence is no real indication of the number who would think it worth while to apply, if they could apply, for a wine and spirit licence?
I do not fully accept that. I think the fact that so few restaurants, out of the total number, have applied for wine licences is a good indication of the number who will apply if Section 15 becomes law. The provisions in the Bill are such, I think, as to limit very considerably, first of all, the number of restaurants who will be able to apply and, secondly, the number who will want to apply.
What is the sense in bringing it in then?
It will be a very valuable amenity for the restaurants which will qualify.
They will be very few.
Is the Minister suggesting that there are a small number of people who would take stout instead of wine?
I shall not anticipate the debate any further.
This is becoming an argument.
What does the Minister think is the relationship between the number who drink wine and the number who drink porter——
I have been informed that porter is hardly drunk at all.
Stout, then.
