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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jun 1962

Vol. 195 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 39—Lands.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £1,452,450 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission.

At the outset, I propose to comment on the more significant subheads of the Estimate and, in particular, on items which reflect a major change as compared with the amounts provided last year. I shall continue with a brief review of the principal activities of the Land Commission in the course of the year ended 31st March last and, by way of conclusion, I shall advert to some matters of general interest having a bearing on this important Vote.

The net total of the Estimate, viz. £2,490,050 represents a net increase of £162,170 on the corresponding amount provided last year. Whilst this overall increase is attributable, for the most part, to Subhead A, it is also borne to a lesser extent by a number of other Subheads, viz. B, D, G, H and L. I shall explain the reasons for the increases under these Subheads as I go along.

Subhead A, which provides for salaries, wages and allowances, shows an increase of £93,420 as compared with the amount authorised last year. As already stated, this is the greatest single factor in the overall increase this year. The additional amount now required — apart from normal incremental advances accruing to the staff — results from salary awards to various grades in the Civil Service consequent on the "Eighth Round" adjustment of salaries and wages generally. The number of personnel is being kept to the minimum consistent with the requirements of the land settlement programme.

Subhead B relates mainly to travelling expenses incurred on inspections and surveys under the Land Acts. Incidental expenses are also provided for under this Subhead. This year there is an increase of £4,700 — mainly to provide for an anticipated increase in travelling expenses on acquisition inspections, resulting from the impetus in these activities stemming from the increased land bond issues.

Subhead D represents the taxpayers' contribution in the current year towards the service of land purchase debt, accumulated on both tenanted and untenanted land, since 1923. The moneys in this Subhead are in the nature of statutory commitments. This year, the contribution amounts to £933,600 — or about 35 per cent. of the entire Estimate. Of this amount, more than £750,000 is required for the purpose of making good deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund arising from the statutory halving of annuities conceded in 1933. The increase of £28,600 in Subhead D this year is attributable almost entirely to the halving of purchase instalments payable by new allottees as land settlement continues.

Subhead G, which bears the general title of "Purchase of Interests for Cash", provides a total of £145,000 for two distinct items, namely:— (a) £140,000 for purchase of lands for cash in the open market under Section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, and (b) £5,000 for compensation, payable in cash, on the resumption of tenancy interests on the small outstanding residue of estates of the former Congested Districts Board. The sum of £5,000 proposed for this residual activity is unchanged from last year.

Since 1958, the amount provided for the purchase of land for cash under Section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, has been progressively increased each year. The amount proposed this year is £140,000, which represents an increase of £40,000 on last year's record provision. As Deputies are aware, the bulk of land acquisition is financed in Land Bonds issued under Land Bond Orders made by the Minister for Finance: activities under Section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, are confined to purchase of land required for the creation of migrants' holdings or to facilitate rearrangement of intermixed holdings. Last year, expenditure under Section 27 amounted to £135,795, the total area purchased for cash being 1,837 acres, compared with an expenditure of about £75,000 on the purchase of 1,296 acres in the previous year. Present prospects for cash purchases suggest that the substantially increased provision under Subhead G in the current year will be fully utilised.

Subhead H provides £7,000 for payment of gratuities, pursuant to Section 29 of the Land Act, 1950, to persons displaced from employment on lands being taken over by the Land Commission for division. It is difficult to forecast accurately the amount required for the purpose of Subhead H in any particular year. The charge to the subhead necessarily depends on two factors, namely, the volume of land acquisition and the personal circumstances of individual workmen displaced.

Any displaced employee who is deemed competent to work land is automatically considered for an allotment and, indeed, it is only right that such a person should have a strong claim. However, if he is regarded as unsuitable for an allotment, a displaced workman is eligible for a cash gratuity, depending upon such factors as the length of service, personal and family circumstances, and the availability of alternative employment. An increase of £3,000 in Subhead H is proposed this year, mainly because the basis of payment of gratuities was reviewed and a higher standard of compensation set during the past year. Last year, 21 ex-employees received gratuities totalling £4,500, or an average of £214 each. In the previous year, a similar number of displaced workmen received £3,134 or an average of £149 each. From the passing of the Land Act, 1950, up to 31st March, 1962, gratuities totalling £30,142 have been paid to 245 ex-employees — an average of £123 each.

The funds required to carry out the various improvement works on lands allotted by the Land Commission are provided under Subhead I. Provision under the subhead this year again stands at £690,000, which accounts for almost 26 per cent. of the entire Estimate. These improvement works include the erection of dwelling-houses and out-offices; the provision of access roads, fencing and drainage; development of turbary; repair and maintenance of embankments and so on. As such works are a vital feature of a comprehensive and well-directed land settlement programme, the expenditure incurred on them each year is necessarily of a high order.

During the year ended 31st March last, expenditure out of the Improvements Subhead totalled £622,613, of which some £287,00 was spent on building works. Last year, employment was provided by the Land Commission on estate improvement works for about 840 men whose wages were in the region of £240,000. The Incentive Bonus Scheme, which was extended to certain Land Commission works in the course of the previous year, has now concluded its first full year's operation. Application of the scheme, apart from bringing about a worthwhile saving in expenditure, has resulted in a significant increase in productivity as well as enhanced earnings for the workers concerned.

Deputies will recall that, as a first step towards settling a long-term practical policy for game promotion, provision was made under Subhead L in last year's Estimate for an initial expenditure of £7,500 for the purpose of making grants for the preservation and improvement of game resources in accordance with approved schemes. I stated at that time that such schemes would be confined, at the outset, to local organisations representative of all appropriate interests; and, in inviting regional game councils to send their proposals to my Department, I pointed out that grants would be made, within the funds available, to assist schemes which held out promise of worthwhile practical results and which were backed by efficient local organisation. In the main, these schemes embrace proposals for destruction of predators on game birds — apart from the fox menace which is dealt with by the County Committees of Agriculture— and for the breeding and laying down of game to augment wild stocks. However, in order that the business may remain completely flexible, I have deliberately refrained from insisting on any rigid national pattern for the schemes.

Last year, 15 schemes, involving an estimated expenditure of some £8,000, were approved. To assist in their implementation, grants up to a maximum of £5,055 were sanctioned on the basis of payment pro rata with vouched expenditure by the game councils concerned. Up to 31st March, 1962, the game councils' expenditure, as vouched to the Department, had qualified for grants totalling £2,130 which were promptly paid out. Since 31st March, 1962, supplementary claims have been received in respect of additional expenditure of about £3,400 appropriate to last year's schemes. The corresponding grants totalling a further £2,000 will be dealt with under the current Estimate provision. Some time must necessarily elapse before the practical results of last year's schemes can be properly assessed.

For the current year, provision under Subhead L has been increased to £10,000. Regional game councils, now established in 24 counties, have been asked to forward details of their proposed schemes as early as possible so that they can be considered for grants out of the enlarged allocation. In this connection, it should be understood that these grants are confined to financing locally organised direct improvement schemes.

I am glad to say that there has been an appreciable response to my appeal last year for full co-operation on the part of the various interests — agricultural, rural and sporting — concerned in the game development movement. In most counties, representatives of these interests are collaborating in regional game councils and doing good work. I hope that the few remaining counties will follow the good example so as to ensure that the movement is not hampered by any spirit of faction or mistrust.

With a view to promoting unity in the game movement, I would prefer to deal with representative groups on a county basis. The competence and achievements of all game councils will be carefully reviewed and it goes without saying that any active council, which is prepared to co-operate along practical lines, may expect assistance from my Department.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

To those who would urge that I should hand over control of game development, I want to make it clear that I am not prepared to give exclusive jurisdiction or right of consultation to any particular body to the exclusion of all others. Even yet, the time is not ripe to establish a national game authority. I am confident that, in present circumstances, the game movement can best develop on a county or regional basis — with due regard to different local conditions and irrespective of the loyalties or affiliations of the various game councils.

Having dealt at some length with the major provisions of the Estimate, it is scarcely necessary to comment on the few remaining subheads which are either unchanged from last year or merely self-explanatory token provisions. I shall, therefore, continue with a review of the activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last. While some of the returns are still provisional, they are unlikely to differ to any appreciable extent from the final statistics when they become available.

I propose to deal with tenanted land first. During the year ended 31st March last, a total of 1,298 tenanted holdings were revested in tenant purchasers. By 31st March last, on estates purchased under the Land Acts, 1923-54, the number of tenanted holdings pending for vesting in tenants was reduced to less than 7,000. In addition, there were about 2,300 holdings on estates of the former Congested Districts Board for which land purchase proceedings had still to be concluded. The total number of holdings, under all Land Acts, outstanding for vesting in tenants at 31st March, 1962, therefore, was approximately 9,300 — out of an original aggregate of some 400,000 tenancies. These difficult residual cases are situated almost entirely in the congested districts. As a substantial proportion of them requires rearrangement, enlargement or general improvement prior to vesting, the work involved in dealing with them is necessarily tedious but they are being disposed of as rapidly as circumstances permit.

On the untenanted land side, the acceleration in land acquisition to which I referred last year, resulting from the provision by the Government of substantially increased funds, both in bonds and in cash, was maintained during the year. With a view to considering the initiation of acquisition, purchase or resumption proceedings, an aggregate area of 70,000 acres was inspected by the Land Commission while proceedings were, in fact, instituted in respect of some 30,000 acres. The aggregate area taken over for division during the year exceeded 32,000 acres and included a number of large properties such as the Harper Estate in County Laois, the Legge-Burke and de Stacpoole Estate in County Meath and the McEnery Estate in County Kilkenny. The Charteris Estate in County Tipperary was purchased and possession was taken recently.

At 31st March last, acquisition proceedings were pending in respect of a total area of 42,260 acres. With these substantial acreages, acquired and "in the machine," there is good reason for being optimistic about land settlement prospects in the immediate future. During the year ended 31st March last, an area of upwards of 38,000 acres was distributed amongst 2,050 allottees, including the enlargement of some 1,100 uneconomic holdings.

The results for the year in the sphere of rearrangement were very good. In all, some 520 fragmented holdings were rearranged, bringing the total number of such holdings dealt with, since 1950, up to about 5,750. Rearrangement work is a very delicately-poised business calling for endless tact and patience on the part of the outdoor staff of the Land Commission engaged in it. Moreover, the work involved inevitably tends to become more difficult as the number of outstanding cases diminishes with each year's results. It is essential, therefore, if the successful implementation of rearrangement schemes is to continue, that tenants concerned should co-operate fully with the Land Commission's proposals. These schemes have so far operated entirely on a voluntary basis and are designed primarily for the tenants' benefit. It is, therefore, clearly in the tenants' own interests to ensure, as far as possible, that the schemes are not hampered by excessive demands or obstructive tactics by participants.

I have said that, so far, these schemes have been operated entirely on a voluntary basis: I cannot promise that it will remain so and I do not promise it for I am hearing of instances of obstruction. The fact is that some tenants, always few in number in relation to any given scheme, by their unhelpful and unco-operative attitude prevent the Land Commission from putting the rearrangement scheme into effect, there-by depriving, not only themselves, but all those tenants who were disposed to accept, of the substantial benefits and advantages of the scheme.

Migration is, of course, an inseparable feature of the rearrangement programme. To make available to the Land Commission the additional land required for rearrangement of inter-mixed holdings, it is invariably necessary to migrate some tenants from the particular area being resettled to new holdings elsewhere. During the year ended 31st March last, 68 migrations were effected. While this number fell short of the previous year's record results, it would undoubtedly have been much higher were it not for building difficulties arising from the cement strike encountered during the year and which had the effect of delaying the completion of dwelling-houses and other buildings on new holdings approved for migrants. As a result, the migration programme for the financial year was somewhat behind schedule but this has been compensated for to a large extent by the fact that, even in the past nine weeks, 40 additional migrants have been installed in their new holdings.

Building work generally during the past year was adversely affected by two factors, namely poor weather conditions and the cement shortage. In the circumstances, I consider the completion, by or with financial assistance from the Land Commission, of 139 new dwelling-houses and 213 new out-offices during the year ended 31st March, 1962, very creditable. In addition, 17 dwelling-houses were reconstructed.

As I announced last year, advances up to £200 — irrespective of the amount of the annuity payable by the applicant —are now available from the Land Commission to supplement grants made by the Department of Local Government for the construction of new dwelling-houses. During the past year, 34 such advances were made by the Land Commission.

Progress has been made on the preparation of a range of new building plans of modern design for Land Commission operations. However, until such time as these plans have been fully considered, it has been decided as an interim measure that, wherever practicable, the Land Commission will adopt, with certain essential modifications, one of the modern dwellinghouse plans used by the Department of Local Government.

The Land Commission are particularly anxious to ensure that tenants and allottees have satisfactory water facilities for farming and domestic purposes. The provision of water supplies is, therefore, an important facet of their activities. Four machines owned by the Land Commission are constantly engaged in this work but, in an effort to keep abreast of heavy and urgent commitments, it has been found necessary to engage well-boring contractors to augment output by the Land Commission machinery. In all, 106 wells were completed during the past year and this aspect of the work will continue to be expedited to the utmost.

I have already referred to the revesting of tenanted land by the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last. I should also say that satisfactory progress was made on the equally important work of vesting allotments of untenanted land in the allottees. In all, 4,635 properties, consisting of holdings, parcels and rights of turbary were vested in tenants and allottees in the course of the year.

The position regarding payment of annuities continues satisfactory. Out of a total collectable amount of over £70¾ millions, since 1933, the arrear at 31st March, 1962, amounted to £139,564— which represents a 99.98 per cent. successful collection. It is only right that I should take this opportunity to compliment the farming community on their remarkable record of annuity payment.

Progress continued during the year ended 31st March last on the Land Commission scheme of resettlements out of the areas of high flood risk in the Shannon Valley, in Counties Roscommon, Galway, Westmeath and Offaly. The scheme is now in its final stage. As has been made clear on previous occasions, this is not a scheme of flood control; rather is it aimed at affording relief, as far as practicable, from the hazards of flooding by the erection of new buildings on higher sites, the reconstruction of existing buildings in suitable cases and the provision, where necessary, of dry stands for stock in times of abnormal flooding.

The following is a summary of progress under the scheme up to a recent date:— work on 49 dwelling-houses and 50 out-offices has been completed by the Land Commission. A further 6 dwelling-houses and 4 out-offices are at present under construction while work is expected to commence shortly on the erection of 4 dwelling-houses and 6 out-offices. The allotment of dry stands for stock in 31 cases has necessitated the migration of 6 landowners and their resettlement on new holdings elsewhere. The cost of the scheme is being borne by the National Development Fund and, up to a recent date, total expenditure has amounted to approximately £105,000.

It is regrettable that despite my previous appeals for co-operation a few eligible participants still persist in withholding their co-operation from the scheme. I find it difficult to understand their attitude. I must repeat that there can be no question whatsoever of the Land Commission expending public money on the construction or repair of buildings on sites which are liable to flooding. Consequently, if the parties concerned do not fall into line with the Land Commission proposals, the scheme will have to be concluded without them; any future losses incurred by them through flooding will be entirely their own fault, and no amount of journalistic coverage will be allowed to arouse sympathy for them. Perhaps, even at this late stage, these parties might reconsider their attitude and co-operate in a project which is being arranged specially for their benefit at public expense.

Deputies will recollect that the Finance Act, 1961, contained provivisions whereby the Revenue Commissioners would keep the Land Commission informed regarding property purchases or leases in this country by non-national interests. Since 1st August, 1961, particulars of such transactions — apart from those relating to urban properties or residential non-urban properties with less than 5 acres of land — are being recorded in a register kept by the Land Commission under the procedure authorised by Sections 33, 34 and 35 of the Finance Act, 1961.

These arrangements, which are working satisfactorily, permit a ready assessment of the overall statistical position. From 1st August, 1961, up to a recent date, the total area recorded as having been purchased or leased by non-nationals — and on which the 25 per cent. rate of Stamp Duty had been paid — was 4,580 acres, comprising 56 properties, some of which are small units. In addition, 686 acres, involving 56 transactions, were acquired for purposes of industry other than agriculture; and 1,131 acres, comprising 14 transactions, were acquired for other purposes but exempted from duty under the relevant exemption sections of the Finance Act, 1961.

I am satisfied that the measures taken by the Government to ensure that the land settlement programme is not hampered by the indiscriminate purchase of agricultural land in this country by non-nationals are adequate. I think the foregoing statistics, which relate to a period of ten months, will enable the subject of land purchases in Ireland by foreigners to be viewed in its true perspective and also allay the anxiety and emotion formerly expressed in some quarters regarding this very sensitive business. It is good to get back to the language of fact, instead of emotive incantation, about this subject.

I should like to refer now to the recent Report by the Inter-Departmental Committee on the Problems of Small Western Farms. This important report concerns many aspects of the work of the Land Commission and I am at present examining its contents in detail. It will be appreciated, however, that until I have concluded my examination I will not be in a position to indicate what action will be feasible in relation to the various suggestions affecting the Land Commission contained in the report.

I believe changes in the current system are now desirable to meet the challenges emerging in this day and age. There are certain ideas under consideration on which final decisions by the Government have not been made and on which I and the Government would like to encourage public discussion before proposing legislation to the Dáil.

At this stage I do not propose to do more than refer to the report in a general way. There is one aspect of it, in particular, to which I have been giving a good deal of thought. This is the suggestion that Land Commission policy in relation to the size of the standard holding should be reviewed. I have often questioned the wisdom of the expression "standard holding" in the context of the land settlement programme. It seems to suggest that there is an inflexible rigidity in the implementation of land division policy and that the Land Commission wishes to force allottees into some unnatural conformity. In actual fact, of course, this is not the case at all. It occurs to me, however, that if we were to get away from possible misconceptions of this kind and concentrate more on the concept of achieving a viable farm unit in all parts of the country, including the West, we might be approaching the subject in a more realistic fashion.

As Deputies will be aware, the aim of the Land Commission, in non-congested areas, has been to create a unit of 33 acres of first-class land or its equivalent in larger acreage of land of mixed quality. The view is held — and I certainly subscribe to it — that there is no reason why such a holding, properly worked and with the owner availing himself freely of the local agricultural advisory services, should not afford a decent livelihood to a man and his family. Indeed, it is a remarkable thing that most of the prize-winners in competitions sponsored by farming organisations come from holdings of this size or even less. In this connection, also, it may be worth mentioning that no less an authority than Dr. Mansholt is on record to the effect that more than two-thirds of the farms in the EEC are less than 25 acres in area.

I should like to dispel the notion that in non-congested areas the Land Commission operate in such a way as to carve out holdings of 33 acres of good land and no more: in practice, this just does not happen. The newly-created holdings almost invariably comprise a mixture of good and inferior land, sometimes far in excess of this acreage. By way of illustration, I might mention that the average size of holding allotted to migrants during the past decade was in the region of 44 acres, the land usually being of varied quality.

In the light of this, I cannot envisage much justifiable criticism in regard to the size of Land Commission holdings in non-congested areas. If an increase should prove warranted, then, in my view, a modest increase seems to be the most that is necessary; but let me say that I would welcome the views and opinions of Deputies on this topic and I shall deem it a privilege to have them. It may be that the present standard as such is good but not the best and I do not want to make the good the enemy of the best, especially in the competitive era that is before us. As I see it, however, the real problem exists in the size of holdings provided by the Land Commission in congested areas.

In these areas a practice was evolved by the Land Commission of giving a number of very small additions to tenants in the immediate neighbourhood of the land being divided. This has led inevitably to the creation of lower standard units for farms in the West than for other districts. It has also led to the position that there are many land units upon which farming can only be operated at subsistence level or less than subsistence level by the tenants concerned. There is no doubt that great and ameliorative work has been done by the Land Commission in these areas. The fact remains, however, that in many instances viable farming units were not created and the individual recipients of the many fragments of divided land were still left in the position that they had to seek employment otherwise than on the land for three or four months of the year.

It is my personal view that we can no longer afford to have different standard units in different parts of the country. I further feel that the time has arrived when the national policy should be to create a viable unit, irrespective of other considerations, so that where land division or rearrangement takes place in the congested areas the aim should be as far as possible to create viable units of land.

I want the House clearly to understand what this change of policy would entail. It would mean that, where formerly on the division of land seven or eight people within a mile radius would have got additions, under the new policy as envisaged perhaps only two or three would benefit. The position, however, of these two or three would be that they would be dealt with for all time. If any of them failed individually, as some people will in all walks of life, we cannot say that it was because they did not have the wherewithal to succeed.

We have come to a time, and especially in the concept of the EEC, in which farming or the utilisation of land is a business, and a highly specialised and competitive one at that. It is utterly unrealistic in 1962 to think that men and women in the West of Ireland are prepared to accept the standard of living of their grandfathers or even of their fathers on land units upon which their forefathers were compelled to exist during the famine times. Many of the armchair critics who talk about emigration from the West would not survive on one of these £5 valuation holdings for 48 hours.

Our rural society is based on the family farm. This is in accord with the sociological concepts underlying the agricultural policy of the European Economic Community. Indeed, it will be recalled that the Taoiseach in his address to the Ministers of the Governments of Members States at Brussels in January last, referred to this matter and stressed the appeal which the emphasis placed by the Community on the maintenance of viable family farms had for the Irish people. Surely, the establishment of viable family units is as necessary in Western areas as it is in the East and South?

I should like to see a new concept of the family farm established for the whole country — a concept which would not be governed by any precise standard of size but, rather, one which would permit a variation in acreage and quality depending on the type of locality concerned and the farming pattern followed there. It would be a farm capable of providing a hardworking, thrifty family with a decent living. In some areas, where an abundance of prime land is available, the farm might comprise as little as 35 acres: in other areas, where mixed quality land predominates, it might comprise up to 55 acres. But, on average, my farm concept would be in the region of 40 to 45 acres of allpurpose land.

With the foregoing concept in mind, my personal view is that, in future, wherever practicable, new or enlarged holdings in Western areas should possess the potential for as good a livelihood as the typical farm unit created elsewhere in the country. I realise, of course, only too well that there are in the West some pockets of intense congestion where application of this concept would be quite impracticable in present circumstances but I feel that a start should be made by establishing the general idea that, where full-time farm enterprises are involved, the small western farm should, to the utmost extent practicable, be brought up to the level of its counterpart in the East or South of the country.

With a view to catering for those districts where the congestion problem is most intractable, it seems to me that special treatment will be necessary. What form this should take is not yet quite clear. Perhaps a measure of control of land sales within defined or scheduled areas, so as to prevent the agglomeration of holdings by non-agriculturalists, might help the Land Commission's efforts towards securing an improvement in the land structure in these areas; certainly my thinking is running in the direction of formulating such control and, again, that is a subject on which I would invite the views of Deputies.

The Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee suggests that the Land Commission should take power to control the undesirable agglomeration of holdings by private individuals or concerns. I believe that this proposition is worthy of examination, with particular reference to the congested areas. I feel, however, there is no practical way of achieving this objective without providing that the Land Commission's consent would be necessary to the sale of any land in a congested area or an area that would be scheduled by the Land Commission.

This would mean, in effect, that the Land Commission would have to approve of the purchaser of any land in such areas. I should like Deputies to understand that, generally speaking, this is already the law where the subdivision of land is concerned. In such cases, Land Commission consent to the subdivision is necessary and, if the subdivision is for the purpose of selling a portion of the holding, it means that the Land Commission do in fact approve the purchaser. Many Deputies will have the experience of instances in which the Land Commission have refused their consent to the subdivision on the ground that uneconomic holdings would be created.

The proposition, therefore, that the sale of land in congested areas, where uneconomic holdings abound, should be prohibited except with the consent of the Land Commission is not as revolutionary as it first appears. In many Continental countries there are very strict laws as to who may acquire land. These laws are, in the main, designed to ensure that those who get land are fully equipped, technically and otherwise, to make the very best and intensive use of it. While we have in the West a continuous pattern of consolidation going on whereby small holdings are amalgamated, we also have the agglomeration of land in the hands of people whose livelihoods are not dependent on farming at all. These people, in the main, are only concerned with the easiest or most convenient form of land user.

I, therefore, think the time has come to ensure that, particularly in the congested areas, the vendors of land there would require the Land Commission's consent to the sale. It will be appreciated that such a procedure would also ensure that the Land Commission would be aware of any land coming on the market that might be suitable for their purposes for the relief of congestion.

I referred to the law in other countries and I should like to touch briefly on one aspect of this subject here. Small farmers in the West are notoriously slow in making their wills. Many of us have experienced the appalling mess that is left by intestate landowners there. The son who is staying on the farm is in complete insecurity as far as the law is concerned for a minimum of 12 years — and in many cases for 20 years or more — from the date of the death of his father. This is a great dis-incentive for the young man who finds himself in this position. He is afraid to make any capital investment or improvements because some member of the family in England, America or Australia may stake his claim in years to come and scll him out. This position has, in many instances to my knowledge, led to bad land user and ultimate emigration. I accordingly feel that this aspect of the land problem in the West deserves examination and consideration.

Congestion is in some cases in the West aggravated by the existence of intermixed and rundale conditions. We have now reached the really hard core of this problem. The rundale estates that are left are, in the main, estates in respect of which the Land Commission have failed to make progress due to the lack of co-operation of the tenants concerned. In some cases where it is necessary to migrate, say, four tenants from such an estate, nobody is willing to go. In other cases where agreement for a rearrangement scheme is achieved amongst 80 per cent. of those concerned, there are one or two odd men out who will not co-operate and thus make the execution of the rearrangement scheme impossible. Again, in some of these cases, schemes are held up by old people or aged recalcitrant bachelors whose land may be essential for the completion of a successful rearrangement.

As an inducement to these people perhaps it would be desirable to have the power to give them a life annuity and leave them in occupation of their houses while they live, on condition that they would make available the rest of their land for Land Commission purposes. A general suggestion on these lines has been made in the Inter - Departmental Committee's Report to which I have referred. Whatever about the general application of such a measure, I feel it would be feasible, and indeed needed, in dealing with the hard core of rundale and inter-mixed estates which are left. In order to anticipate argument, I concede immediately that if I took this power it would be necessary to amend the old age pension code so that the Land Commission life annuity would not preclude the recipient from qualification for the old age pension. If this were not done, the new weapon as an inducement would be useless.

Let me again emphasise that the worst of our land slums in the West are comprised in these rundale and inter-mixed estates. While I am loath to advocate compulsory powers for the solution of this problem, I think that in special cases, where even the new inducements would fail, some form of compulsion might be justifiable. If I cite the extreme example of nine tenants being prepared to accept a scheme and there is one impossible man whom you will not lead or drive, there should be some method of dealing with him so that he cannot for all time hold up the progress of his neighbours. It may be that in such a case, when everything else failed, compulsory powers should be invoked.

A further suggestion which I should like the House to consider, is a power to enable a man to solve his own congestion problem. For instance, should the Land Commission have power to schedule a particular village or townland where there is a pocket of congestion? They know already it is necessary to take two tenants out of that pocket in order to leave the remaining tenants with viable land units. It could be desirable that the Land Commission be free to go to two progressive young farmers in that particular pocket and say: "If you go out and purchase an economic holding on your own and leave your own holding to the Land Commission we will pay you £X to enable you to do so." I make this suggestion not in substitution for but in addition to the other powers I have outlined for discussion by the House.

The Report has confirmed a view which I had formed earlier on the general problem of western congestion. I have become convinced that what is needed at this stage in the development of land reform is a greatly accelerated migration programme from the congested to the non-congested districts. I would visualise doubling, or even trebling, the number of such migrants so that each year's programme would make a much more pronounced impact than at present on the remaining areas of congestion.

This, of course, automatically poses the problem of acquiring more land to provide the additional new holdings for migrants. Whilst Section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, which enables the Land Commission to purchase land for cash in certain cases, is an instrument with which, as it stands, I have never been satisfied, nevertheless, an extension of the aims and scope of the section might go some distance towards achieving the accelerated migration programme to which I have referred. I am arranging for an overhaul of the section which will give it extra teeth.

If the Dáil gave such extra power as visualised here, I feel that the Land Commission should be geared to a massive migration programme with the continuous target of, say, 200 families a year. I think I should also point out the other side of what this programme would entail. It would mean in practice the virtual exclusion of all categories except migrants or genuine uneconomic holders in the immediate vicinity of the lands acquired in the East and South of the country. I have emphasised time and again that there is not enough land in this country to solve the congestion problem in the West unless we confine land division to those already on uneconomic holdings. Indeed, it is extremely doubtful whether there is nearly enough land now available to solve the problem even if the land acquired is confined solely to the categories mentioned. I am personally convinced that unless we now make it the national aim to move on the lines I have suggested in dealing with the land remaining to be acquired in the country, we will not make the impact on the problems of Western small farms that time and national economic requirements dictate.

These are but some of the matters which are currently exercising my mind as a result of the Small Farms Committee's Report. However, they will necessarily require much closer study before positive action can be taken regarding them. I am hopeful, however, that these and other means may from the basis for the final elimination of congestion within the foreseeable future and for the creation throughout the whole country of a much improved land structure aimed at enhancing the economy generally and capable of surviving the testing conditions, in the agricultural sphere, which may be expected to emerge from current developments in Europe.

I would like here to stress the urgency of the Land Commission's work by reason of our prospective membership of the EEC so as to create viable farm units. Deputies will appreciate that if we do enter the Common Market there are a number of limitations which we may have to accept in the form of farm support by way of subsidy which we can provide. It is therefore very necessary and urgent that we reassess the whole picture of our land structure here. I feel that the national aim should be, in so far as it is feasible, to provide viable units of land for those upon them which would be at least equal to the land units occupied by our partners in the Common Market.

There are many other ancillary propositions to those which I have outlined which I feel might be helpful in the solution of the problems confronting us. I feel, however, that a discussion by the Dáil on the various matters to which I have referred would be most helpful to me before I come to any final conclusion. I would also like to make it clear that I am not to be taken as having rejected any of the suggestions made in the Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee by virtue of the fact that I have not specifically referred to them. I have given considerable thought and study to this complex problem and I shall sincerely welcome the views and suggestions of every Deputy on the matters to which I have referred.

Before concluding, I should like to express my appreciation of the excellent work done by the staff of the Land Commission, both indoor and outdoor, during the year ended 31st March last.

I recommend the current Estimate with confidence and I will be interested to hear the views of Deputies from all sides of the House.

I move "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."

This Estimate gives the House an opportunity of dealing with what is one of the greatest problems facing the country. Many of our State Departments discharge very necessary and essential functions, but the Department of Lands is of particular importance. Rural Deputies realise that the whole future of the country depends upon the preservation of rural Ireland. In recent years, a very serious situation has been apparent there. We ask ourselves what are the reasons for mass emigration from many parts of the country—emigration not of individuals but of entire families.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

We must realise the seriousness of the many problems confronting the Minister for Lands. Not alone must our people be kept on the land but they must be encouraged to remain on it and be assured of a good standard of living. In recent times, the small farmers have been passing through a very difficult period. One of the main causes of this is the very limited income they are able to earn from their small, uneconomic holdings. When we ask ourselves why so many people are leaving rural Ireland, particularly from the west and part of the midlands, the only answer is that these people have not sufficient land on which to live, marry and rear families.

In reviewing the activities of the Land Commission, we cannot close our eyes to what has already been accomplished, but if we are serious about keeping our people on the land and assisting them to remain there, I do not think the Land Commission, as presently constituted, can do much towards achieving that aim. It was set up as a temporary institution and was never intended to be permanent. Now that the Minister has promised legislation in regard to the Land Commission, would he be prepared seriously to consider whether it has outlived its usefulness and whether the law can be simplified to deal with the urgent problems facing us?

Everybody knows that the Land Commission is a big body which moves extremely slowly and with the greatest possible caution. In the world in which we live there appears to be little room for big bodies that move slowly. In our experience there have been many instances in which applicants for land spent their whole lives in expectation and passed to their eternal reward without achieving their ambition, a decent holding and a proper standard of living on the land.

Will the Deputy tell us where the Land Commission is to get all the land necessary to satisfy everyone?

I maintain that there is one way in which many of those problems can be solved and that is by eliminating Civil Service redtape where possible. I hope that whatever legislation the Minister may have in mind will be legislation that will bring about the same results in the future as the Land Act of 1950 did, because whatever progress the Land Commission may now boast about, as was made clear on more than one occasion in the Minister's speech this morning, they always go back to the passage of the 1950 Act. In that Act there was a great degree of commonsense, planning for the future and progressive thinking and whatever Acts or laws the Minister may have in mind should be framed in the same spirit as the 1950 Land Act, to eliminate delays, to stand for progress and to endeavour to secure the confidence of the people in regard to whatever steps are taken to keep them on the land.

It is the function of every Government and, indeed, of every Party, to see that as many families as possible will be maintained on the land. We must realise the very great responsibility that rests on any Minister for Lands to ensure that the country will not be completely denuded of its rural population. Let the Minister not think for one moment that the trend of emigration is peculiar to the West of Ireland; we now experience it in parts of the South and Midlands. Small farmers are leaving the districts, not because they are anxious to roam or settle in the United States or Britain with their families but, as you will be told on every occasion, because they cannot obtain as decent standard of living on the amount of land they have.

The time has come when the Minister should seriously consider the case of the farmer's son who is not a land-holder himself and who does not qualify for an allotment or holding from the Land Commission under existing regulations. We must first bear in mind that there is not enough land for all the applicants who apply.

That is right.

That is generally agreed. On the other hand, we must realise that not every applicant has a very sound case to put forward, but I think that the farmer's son who is an expert on methods of agriculture though not in a position to purchase a holding himself should get an opportunity of making his home on the land especially when he is familiar with the countryside and the working of the land.

I wonder what has happened to the economic development programme planned some time ago by Mr. Whitaker, who strongly recommended that some arrangement be made by which an aspiring farmer could rent or lease land until such time as he would be able to buy it. We also recall that the third report of the Capital Investment Advisory Committee recommended that lands held by the State should be rented where available on lease to promising young men. Those are very sound recommendations but in recent years we see no evidence that they have been given any more than expressions of praise from the Minister's lips.

We must realise that our big problem today is emigration coupled with the lack of homes and the lack of schools in rural Ireland. It is not alone empty schools but empty sportsfields, empty halls and empty churches. When we get down to the root causes of this national decay——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Serious thought and consideration are required as to the best remedy to apply to conditions in rural Ireland. When, in many instances, the sons of small farmers have to leave the country the country suffers a very serious loss, the loss of their services to the community, the loss to their families and more particularly the loss to the nation because of the fact that those people who have the tradition of the land behind them are not able to purchase a holding for themselves. They must go because they have no alternative.

Let us take the case of a small farmer with three or four sons. One of those sons may get enough land for a small holding but the others must leave the land. We have many instances in the past in which the small farmer himself and the small farmer's son obtained seasonal employment either with Bord na Móna, or the Forestry Section. Our forestry work now seems to be rather pruned and, due to mechanisation by Bord na Móna, this seasonal work is no longer available to the same extent.

One way in which this problem can be solved is by a progressive land policy, a policy based on establishing more families on the land. There are many tracts of land set under the conacre system. Nobody disputes the fact that any farmer who wishes to set his land is entitled to do so but there are many instances in which the owner may be residing outside the State. The owner may not be dependent on the land and yet very substantial sums are being paid year after year for the conacring of this land.

The question of the assignment of conacre is one that should be seriously examined by the Government. The Land Commission have attempted to examine this problem but it should be part of Government policy that land be given to creditworthy young farmers, either on a lease or rent basis. Many of these young farmers have trained in some of our agricultural colleges and are expert farmers in their own way, but because of the high price of land to-day and for many other reasons, are unable to purchase holdings for themselves. Such young farmers who are anxious to marry and who are not anxious to flee from rural Ireland are the types we should encourage and assist.

The Land Commission have statistics of the amount of land under conacre. There may be many cases in which a small farmer, through illness, or a widow, because of lack of assistance, may be compelled to set land, as the only way of obtaining a livelihood. However, where there are extensive tracks of land which are set year in and year out, there is an obligation on the Land Commission and on the State to see to it that that land is leased to creditworthy young farmers, with an option to buy when they are in a position to pay for it.

It must be admitted that it was the 1950 Land Act which made it possible to deal with the rearrangement of holdings and made possible the allocation of the amount of land which has been allocated to many applicants in recent years. Let me put this to the Minister: has more work not been done since the 1950 Land Act was passed than was done during the entire existence of the Land Commission up to that date?

That is not so. There was nothing done under it until I provided the money.

We shall not argue that point this morning because everybody knows quite well, not alone in relation to the Department of Lands but every other Department in which a Minister wants an excuse and does not want to give an explanation, that all he has to say is: "There was no money there when we took over." That is like a record. That is the story being told by the Minister for Lands today and it is the story told here on every Estimate. That cock is a long time crowing and it has outlived its usefulness. Nobody believes it any more.

There has been a Fianna Fáil Government in this country since 1932 and yet the progressive sections of the 1950 Land Act were never thought of prior to 1950. If they were, why were they not implemented between 1932 and 1950? The law has been simplified by the 1950 Land Act and there is greater encouragement to people to sell to the Land Commission. Compensation is provided for those who lose their employment as a result of the taking over and division of land. The 1950 Act permits the Land Commission to buy land on the open market which they could not do from 1932 to 1950. There is no use in making excuses. We cannot close our eyes to the fact that any progress that has taken place in recent years is due to the working of the policy of the inter-Party Government, with particular reference to the Land Act of 1950.

Anybody would think the Deputy was serious, listining to him speaking.

Everybody knows that is a statement of fact and nobody knows that better than the Minister because he has the records of the Department behind him. He can study the progress made prior to 1950 and the progress made since 1950. Since 1950, there have been many cases of people offering their land to the Land Commission. Prior to that, there were more cases of compulsory acquisition, more cases of disagreement, greater delays, cases in which the employees on the estate were thrown to the mercy of the winds. Now there is provision for ample compensation, either in cash or by an addition of land, if they so desire and if they qualify. The 1950 Land Act has been responsible in the past 12 months for the addition of many acres to the land the Land Commission have for allocation simply because the Land Commission can now enter into the public market.

In the interests of the seller of the land as well as everything else, the Land Commission should actively interest themselves in the purchase of more land. I cannot say what degree of co-operation exists between the Land Commission and the various estate agents, auctioneers and others engaged in the buying and selling of land. I believe that, with a measure of co-operation between the Land Commission and those engaged in the buying and selling of land, a useful and valuable contribution could be made. The entry of the Land Commission into the public market ensures that the farmer who is retiring, and who is anxious to put his land on the public market, does so in the full knowledge that the Land Commission can, if they so wish, be a bidder for his land just like everybody else.

Down through the years here we have preserved something that is very important and very precious to us. I refer to the right of free sale without let or hindrance by anyone. The entry of the Land Commission into the public market has proved of immense value and of great benefit to those who believe in the right of a man to sell his land, if he wishes to do so. One of the most important fundamental rights any man has is the right to own his own property and to do what he likes with it.

I hope we shall never see the day here when the State will hinder any man in doing what he likes with his own property. Because of the importance of the right of private ownership and the guarantee given in past generations ensuring farmers ownership of their own lands, it is vitally important that we should maintain free sale. If the day ever comes when we lose free sale, the most serious consequences will ensure, consequences affecting the owners of land and all others concerned with land. That is why the recently passed Land Acts under, which the Land Commission recognise the value of free sale mark a step forward because the Land Commission now take their place with other bidders in the purchase of land in the open market.

That legislative provision has, in my opinion, ensured a better price for the farmer anxious to sell his land. The fact that the Land Commission can be a bidder is of immense value to local smallholders and others anxious to obtain a rearrangement of or additions to their holdings. Private property is safeguarded under the present system. Private property and the right to private ownership are amongst our greatest treasures. Semi-State or State bodies, and the Government, should always regard private ownership of property as something to be maintained and cherished.

I want to pose a very simple question now in relation to the whole land problem, not alone of the west but throughout the length and breadth of the country. What should be the size of an economic holding? We are living to-day in an age of mechanisation, a competitive age, an age of speed and efficiency, and we can no longer expect any man to live and rear a family, in accordance with Christian principles, on a 15, 20 or 25-acre holding. The day when that could be done, if there ever was such a day, has gone. The practice was for the man with the 20 to 25-acre holding to take alternative local employment of a seasonal character to supplement the limited income from his holding. That seasonal employment has ceased in many parts. Men in the west emigrated every year to Scotland, and elsewhere, to take up seasonal work.

The time has now come when we must have a certain standard acreage. It is my honest opinion—I think the Minister will agree with me—that no holding under 45 acres should be recognised as economic. A 45-acre holding will ensure a reasonable standard of tillage and sufficient grass and meadowing to enable the owner to exist without the necessity to enter into the conacre market for either meadowing or grazing. Those of use who live in rural Ireland realise the difficulties to a much greater extent than do those members of this House who are far removed from the everyday operations and working of our small farmers. It is regrettable that the man with 20 to 25 acres is compelled to take conacre for grazing for his livestock, or meadowing to supply him with winter feeding. In order to save the small man this expenditure on conacre, I believe he should have sufficient land to give him a proper return from his tillage and ample meadowing and grazing. In recent years, there has been an improvement certainly in relation to the average size of what is considered to be an economic holding. I trust the Land Commission will decide once and for all that an economic holding is a holding of not less than 45 acres, with a residence, essential outoffices and a proper water supply.

Some encouragement should be given to people to solve their own congestion problems. I was glad the Minister made a brief reference in the course of his speech to that problem. If there are smallholders in the 20 to 25-acre category in a district, and one of those decides to leave the district, and puts his holding on the public market, some arrangement should be made to purchase that holding at its full market value and to rearrange the other uneconomic holdings in the district. In areas where there is congestion and where a smallholder can purchase additional land for himself, he should be encouraged to do so. The Land Commission should advance the money to buy on the basis of repayment in his annuity every half year.

With advice, a proper survey, financial support, State backing and encouragement, there are many people who would not wait for the Land Commission to solve their congestion problems. If they have the assistance and backing of the State, they will solve their own problems in this respect. The size of the holding is of the greatest possible importance and the Land Commission will be doing a very good job of work in the future if it concentrates on enlarging existing holdings and changes the policy in relation to the progressive farmer's son.

The Minister has made very little reference to what I feel is a question of great importance to our rural community, that is, the provision of houses for small farmers. The advance of £200 to supplement what is given by the Department of Local Government and whatever supplementary grant may be provided by the local authority is entirely insufficient to provide smallholders with decent houses. I recommend that the Government change their policy in relation to the housing of our people in rural Ireland.

It is common knowledge in this House that the small farmer is badly hit. Many of them still have to exist in their thatched, mud-walled cabins because they could never reach the stage at which they could put up sufficient money to build a house. Many of them never had sufficiently clear title to approach any bank or the Credit Corporation to raise the £1,200 to £1,500 required to supplement the grant from the Department of Local Government and also the supplementary grant provided by the local authority. There are many such cases in rural Ireland to-day.

The housing of our small farmers is a matter of grave urgency at present. The Minister may say that local authorities have the right at the moment to house the small farmer. That is so, but how many local authorities can do that in view of the demand from agricultural workers and every town in each county to expand and extend the housing programme? Surely local authorities have sufficient responsibility already on their shoulders in the matter of housing urban dwellers, newly-weds, forestry workers and agricultural workers without having to solve the problem of housing the farmer?

The housing of the farmer should, in my opinion, be the responsibility of the Department of Lands. While this £200 advance, referred to by the Minister today, is there, only a very limited few can avail of it. The £200 advance is probably only a drop in the ocean compared with what the ordinary small farmer in many parts of the midlands and the west would require in order to erect a house. The erection of a house and outoffices is by no means a simple and easy task to-day.

I have been wondering why the Department of Lands never undertook the housing of our small farmers on a national basis in the same way as land rehabilitation was undertaken. The Land Commission could be the agents for the State in this regard and provide houses for all our small farmers on a repayment basis similar to the manner in which Section B of the Land Project functioned. The tenant could pay back to the Land Commission half-yearly or yearly the amount of his rent together with the added instalment for the new house with which he would be provided.

I really feel that by the local authority paying the supplementary grant, with whatever grant that would come from the Department of Local Government, these amounts would, in their own small way, contribute something towards what would originally be required to carry out a complete rehousing of all our small farmers. The small farmer is the man who is badly caught out in regard to housing today. The big farmer can provide his housing requirement. He who may be described as an agricultural labourer will be catered for by the local authority. There is no one to cater for the small farmer and he must look after himself from his very limited resources.

The amount of assistance which the State gives a small farmer on 25 to 35 acres is so impracticable and ineffective that we have appallingly bad housing conditions in many parts of rural Ireland today. It should be the primary concern of our Department of Lands properly to house the people on the land.

I venture to say that it should be the concern of any native Government properly to house those who are the mainstay and the backbone of this country. It was the small farmer who always brought us through all our difficulties. During the last war, it was the small farmer who worked and who produced wheat. The small farmer is the backbone of this country to-day but we have many cases in which his very limited income, because his holding is small, does not enable him to be properly housed.

There are many small farmers to-day in rural Ireland whose cows are housed under better living conditions than they are themselves. I do not have to pass my own constituency to see that state of affairs. There are many small farmers who can never hope to be in a position to provide themselves with a decent house, unless the State comes to their assistance. The most practical way in which that can be done, in my opinion, is through the agency of the Land Commission, on a repayment basis.

I venture to say that if the Land Commission undertook a survey throughout the country to-day of people who are not qualified for housing by local authorities, and who cannot afford to house themselves, the results would be astonishing. Sooner or later, this problem must be tackled. If it is not tackled by the present Government, then one of the first problems to be courageously tackled by the next Government will be the housing of the small farmers of this country.

You were not able to build one house when you were in office.

Deputy Dolan should stay quiet.

The loan would be repaid on the lines of repayment under the Land Rehabilitation Scheme. Fianna Fáil Deputies today would not be so outrageously annoyed if they did not know there is a genuine grievance in that regard that has been neglected by the Government. They have failed to provide houses for the small farmers. We are asking them to provide houses for the small farmers. Fine Gael will provide houses for the small farmers and put the cost on the rent. That is something which we propose to do as the next Government. It is only right——

The sweet bye and bye.

—— that we should tell the Government in office at the moment the radical difference that exists between their policy and our policy in the matter of the housing of the small farmer. He may stay in his thatched, mud-walled cabin today under Fianna Fáil, but when the change of Government takes place a house will be built for him through the agency of the Land Commission.

Whether he likes it or not.

He will not suffer the serious inconvenience of having to put his hand into his pocket in the hope of finding from between £700 to £900 for a contract in addition to £200 from the Land Commission and a Local Government grant. It will be built completely and entirely for him.

Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Deputy Dolan is very annoyed. Get up and do the work or else say you will not do it— you have the power.

And the money——

You need the money.

You have been there for 30 years now and you damaged more than you ever built.

(Interruptions.)

Perhaps Deputies would allow Deputy Flanagan to make his contribution.

I fail to see why the housing of our small farmers by the Land Commission should cause such an uproar by the Fianna Fáil Party. Is there any Fianna Fáil Deputy who will tell us it should not be done? That is the question to ask.

The minerals were found in Galway, not in Laois-Offaly.

(Interruptions.)

No one knows better than the Deputies sitting behind the Minister that such housing is urgently required. It is no harm to repeat as often as we possibly can that the urgent need for the housing of our small farmers is a problem the Government failed to tackle. No reference was made by the Minister to rehousing by the Land Commission. We are referring to it because we know that it is the root cause of a problem, the solution of which is very near and dear to every man who loves this country and wishes to remain in it. I am considerably disappointed that more practical steps have not been taken towards this end by the Land Commission. I am considerably disappointed at the progress which they have made in regard to rearrangement of holdings. I am considerably disappointed at the very limited amount of land they bought on the open market. I am considerably disappointed at their failure to provide land for the farmer's son, who is well trained and equipped to work it.

I want to come now to another important point to which the Minister referred. He said the people in the west of Ireland are slow to make wills and settle their affairs. Surely that cannot be described as being peculiar to the west of Ireland, because the same situation probably obtains all over the country. That in itself may be responsible for giving us a record of which we cannot be pround: the lowest marriage rate in the world. I do not hear any Fianna Fáil Deputy applauding that. Records prove beyond yea or nay that we have the lowest marriage rate in the world. The size of the holdings, the livelihood of the small farmers, their standard of living and the conditions on the land, must certainly be connected with that fact. I cannot understand why any farmer, big or small, cannot make his will and settle his affairs. It would not take an hour to do so.

There is general confusion in regard to the title of many holdings. I agree entirely with the Minister in that regard. The Land Commission should take steps to simplify and clear up that matter because in many cases when a small farmer dies intestate and leaves a family of four or five, they may be scattered to the four corners of the earth, and the unfortunate son or daughter who stayed at home and worked cannot enjoy ownership of the property. There should be a national awakening to the responsibilities of land and property owners in this country.

Macra na Feirme, the NFA, Muintir na Tíre and the Irish Countrywomen's Association all have very proud records of achievements. Perhaps they could provide a week, not a day, of lectures on the importance of settling family affairs and making wills. Qualified lecturers could quote instances of hardship in which small holdings have had to be sold out completely, instances in which one penny piece would not be advanced by banks, instances in which the Credit Corporation refused to entertain an application for a loan, instances in which holdings were rendered practically useless because of defective title, due to lack of foresight on the part of the owner in not making a will, settling his affairs and providing for the future.

If all those organisations came together in rural Ireland they could bring about an awakening of responsibility in that regard and an appreciation of the fact that not only will it not shorten the days of the land owner but that he will be able to live with a greater degree of ease of mind and conscience because he has done his duty and made provision with regard to the title after his death. I know very well that many people associated with the legal profession might be rather slow to advocate that, because probably one of the greatest harvests for the legal profession is provided by the fact that there may be complicated titles when individuals die intestate.

Our people should realise their responsibilities, particularly when they are owners of property and have families. They should have a clear idea of their responsibilities. Many old people in rural Ireland should be better informed in that regard. The voluntary organisations, with a helping hand from the Church, could considerably improve the position. An all-out effort should be made to regularise the many irregularities that have arisen in the past and the future should be safeguarded against defective titles because of the failure of owners to make a will.

I remember the President, in one of his election addresses, promising to provide what he described as dower houses into which the farmer's son or daughter, as the case might be, could marry without having to amalgamate all the families in one house. I feel sure he got many votes at the time because of the promotion of that idea. It would be better and more effective if more practical steps were taken by the Department and the Land Commission in an effort to do away with what might be described as race suicide by reason of the low marriage rate and the failure of the Land Commission to ensure that proper title is available so that the land will be of some use to its owner.

I have often wondered why steps have not been taken by the Land Commission to have a nation-wide survey of title taken and to check these titles in the Registry of Deeds so as to ensure that proper title is given. There must be a vast amount of land in the country for which there is no proper title and one of the primary duties of the Land Commission should be to put the existing owners in clear title. Any cost necessary in that regard would be cheerfully borne by the owners, if it were included in their rents. In many cases, it might cost from £50 to £100 to obtain clear title. The fact that there is not clear title has been a considerable handicap to many of our small farmers due to failure on the part of the owner to realise his responsibility.

I want to make reference to the importance of game preservation, a matter which cannot be sufficiently stressed. There must be statistics available in the Department of Lands to show that our game preserves have fallen very greatly in the past 20 to 25 years. Steps should be taken at once to stock our woods and bogs. I know that grants are available now to regional game councils to assist in preservation and restocking but they are insufficient. The Minister probably has his own reasons for holding up the establishment of a national game council but the time is now opportune for that.

I do not know if there are many game farms in this country which can be used for the purpose of allocating additional birds to the regional game councils. In the event of the regional game councils obtaining grants from the Department, they will probably use these grants for the purchase of birds for restocking purposes. If we want to ensure that there are sufficient birds in the country to meet that demand, some State assistance should be provided by way of a 50 per cent. free grant towards the purchase of the necessary equipment for these game farms so that the owners may be able to cope with the increased demand from the regional councils.

These game farms require proper housing and proper heating equipment. The incubator equipment in many cases can cost from £200 to £300. In one case I am aware of, the most modern equipment had to be imported from the United States, without any assistance whatever from the State. When we have the owners of these game farms performing a national duty at the moment in providing stocks of pheasants and other game birds for our woodlands and we have the regional game councils making heavy demands on them for that purpose, the State should assist the very limited number of these farms we have by grants for housing, heating and other necessary equipment.

We have a number of publicspirited people who have undertaken on a large scale the provision of young birds for restocking purposes and the Department of Lands have the obligation of putting these people in a position to function. I hope the Minister will take serious notice of this matter because of the valuable work which is being done on these game farms. One of them is situated in my constituency and I am satisfied that in that case efficient management at no expense whatever to the community in general has been responsible for the filling of numerous orders from game councils throughout the country and also numerous orders from the Six Counties. Some assistance should be granted, if it were only to meet the cost of the heating equipment. That matter is worthy of the most sympathetic consideration by the Minister.

The proposal made here some time ago by this Party, through its leader, that the Land Commission should keep a register of the alien owners of land is one that should have been adopted by the Minister. The Minister may say that foreigners are not buying up land to any great extent but the purpose of the proposed register was to know to what extent they are purchasing land. We know that there are a number of extensive alien land owners in this country to-day. While we welcome and have no objection to foreigners from any part of the world coming here to purchase industrial sites, a close eye should be kept on the purchase of good land by aliens. Some good tillage and grazing land has been purchased by aliens.

It is regrettable that the small farmers' sons, to whom I earlier referred, the men with 25 to 30 acres, must use their profits from such holdings for the purchase of additional land under conacre for hay or grazing or meadow, while the alien can be accommodated with huge tracts of good arable land. The small farmers are put to the pin of their collars to exist on their very congested limited holdings. I should like to hear from the Minister if during the past twelve months he examined the position in regard to keeping such a register. Whatever taxes may be imposed by the Minister for Finance on the purchase of land by alines, the Land Commission is an authority in itself and should have a complete record of the purchase of every holding of agricultural land by aliens and that record should be kept under constant review.

If the Deputy reads my opening statement, he will find that in fact such a register is kept by the Land Commission.

But it does not cover transactions by companies on behalf of aliens.

That was finished by the Finance Act last year.

I do not see any finish to it. It is going on briskly.

I have no evidence that that type of transaction has been finished, no evidence whatever. If the Minister has evidence in that regard, I trust he will indicate the situation in that matter and put the position right. The request made by this Party was a reasonable one and one which should have been accepted by the Minister, bearing in mind that we must take the necessary steps to see that the land will be for the people of Ireland. That is why we should view with the gravest concern large tracts of good land being bought up by aliens, especially in view of the congestion amongst our small farmers.

The progress made in regard to vesting of lands, particularly in the past year, could have been accelerated to some extent. The vesting of our lands has been going on for some time and the Minister would be well advised to put the vesting section working with a view to the completion of vesting.

Reference has been made to the relief provided in the Shannon Valley district and it is quite true that substantial sums have been spent on the erection there of houses and outoffices. That in itself, as the Minister and the House knows, will not relieve or remove the constant flooding of the Shannon. My constituency has been closely connected with the work undertaken by the Department of Lands on the Shannon and I fail to understand why parts of County Offaly have been excluded from the provision of any relief. The district around Clonmacnoise, Shannon Harbour and the entire district of Lusmagh should be included. I have raised this matter before with the Minister without success. I would ask that whatever improvements are undertaken, they should include those parts of Offaly on the banks of the Shannon which have not received the benefits of houses, roads, outhouses or general improvements.

I wonder if the Land Commission intend to continue spending money on the Shannon Valley without having a long term programme in mind. The time has arrived when the problem has become important and urgent, beyond all doubt. The time has now come when instead of the Land Commission tinkering with the Shannon problem, a permanent board should be set up. On that board there should be representatives of Roscommon, Westmeath, Galway, Offaly and North Tipperary, as well as the Longford and Leitrim County Councils. Such a permanent board should have statutory powers and relieve the Land Commission of the problems they have been faced with and will be faced with in the Shannon Valley. The Office of Public Works have a programme and I understand that in the Dáil next week the Parliamentary Secretary will make a full statement on the Government's proposals for the future of the Shannon.

Before such a statement is made, the Minister for Lands should consult with the Board of Works and ascertain exactly where the greatest measure of co-operation can be obtained. When certain obstacles are removed, this permanent body should be set up to alleviate distress and to provide the Shannon Valley with whatever is needed. There are many people in the Shannon Valley district who do not want to leave the land. It is all very fine for the Minister to offer them land in the midlands or elsewhere but the land in the Shannon Valley is to those people what the gold mines were to the people of some of the American States. If they leave, they feel they are breaking an old family link. That is why those who do not want to go should not have to go. It is all right for those who apply for holdings but we should not compel those who do not want to go to leave the Shannon Valley district.

This permanent board should have sufficient funds so that in the event of the loss of livestock in the district, or crops, or fodder, hay or anything else, it could decide on the scale of compensation to be paid. We may bear in mind that the Shannon flooding will take place after every serious rainfall, particularly as a number of rivers have now been drained into it. This will mean a greater flow of water on the Shannon and for that reason it is time there was a complete survey of the area. The area should be known as the Shannon Valley District. Special provision should be made whereby a statutory board would have power to compensate and deal with every emergency in relation to housing, livestock and crops. The board should be centralised and should have complete power and control to assist people in the Shannon Valley. It should also have power to relieve any distress that may be caused by reason of constant flooding.

All the farmers in the Shannon Valley are poor. There is no well-off farmer in that district and because of the small type uneconomic farm, they must depend on poor land, probably waterlogged for eight months of the year. This is one case that calls for very special attention. In order to relieve the Land Commission of piece patching the Shannon, I hope, now that the Board of Works are taking their step, that this matter will be dealt with courageously and finally that a scheme will be devised for the permanent safeguarding of life, property and stock in the Shannon Valley. I trust we will hear more from the Minister in that regard at a later stage.

Reference was made to the purchase of land for the rearrangement of holdings. Greater emphasis should be placed on this aspect which is of the greatest possible importance. The Land Commission should also come to the aid of tenants and provide a proper new scheme, apart from the Farm Improvements Scheme, in relation to proper fencing.

I know that a grant for fencing can be obtained from the Department of Agriculture, but once the Land Commission are the owners or the landlords of the land in respect of which they receive the annuity, it should be their responsibility to fence all lands for tenants on an annuity repayment basis.

We have a clear indication in the Minister's address today of a lack of progress and of a constructive policy for the future in the Land Commission and in the Department of Lands. That is why I can only say that his statement to-day was the same as the statement every year since 1950—a matter of changing the figures and repeating the various phrases.

What we want is something of a progressive character. The Minister in his closing remarks spoke of our entry into the Common Market. Whilst we need progress in every sphere of activity, we must have it first on the land and, important as agriculture is, the Department of Lands, through the Land Commission, have what might be described as the greatest responsibility of all.

I feel they are bankrupt of a policy for the future. There is no evidence of anything constructive. There is no hope of stemming the tide of emigration from our small holdings. There is no encouragement for young people, no indication that they will be in a better position to purchase holdings or be given them. We had no assurance that creditworthy people, who are unable to purchase land themselves, will be provided with land, despite pleas to the Government from many sources. There is nothing in the future policy of the Land Commission in that connection.

The Land Commission has outlived its usefulness. It is time to adopt modern ideas. It is time for action. It is time special attention was focussed on the small farmer. Even as recently as yesterday, the Bishop of Cork made a pronouncement—all of which was quite true. I am quite sure that his astounding words did not fall on deaf ears. The constant drop will wear away the stone. It is a pity that we have not more men as courageous as the Bishop of Cork in his pronouncements on behalf of the underdog, the plain people—comments which will cause those in high places to realise that there exist in this country people who need help, encouragement and assistance and who are being bled white by over-taxation at present.

That is why I think the Department of Lands is not serving the useful function expected of such an important Department. They cannot look idly on while the lifeblood is being drained from the community. It is their duty and responsibility to look after them. Their methods are antique; their ideas are old-fashioned and their movements are sluggish. They will have to adjust themselves to modern conditions and look to the future.

That is why I feel it is not a matter for the Land Commission to present ideas to the Government. It is the duty of the Government to give the ideas to the Land Commission for implementing. There appears to be an absence of a realisation of conditions in the west, midlands and other parts of the country. If it realised the position and the urgency of the need for action, the Land Commission, if functioning properly and rightly, would probably be an agency by which valuable and useful work could be done, if the instruction were given.

I hope the House will now be given an opportunity of having a full-dress and lengthy debate. The Minister invited criticism today; he asked for suggestions and comments. The House, with its representation from rural Ireland, will be in a position to make very wise suggestions and comments to the Minister in relation to the discharge of the duties of his Department. They are entirely outdated. For that reason, I hope for something of a more progressive character. If this House is asked to provide money for schemes of development which will raise the standard of our people living on small holdings, all of us will be ready to give a favourable ear to any appeal that comes from the Minister. If the Minister asks for money, however unlimited his demand may be, it will be wisely spent in putting land into the hands of the right type of people, people who will use it and work it for the benefit of the community.

That is exactly what we want. That is where the Land Commission has a duty and a responsibility. It is only hen-pecking at the present time. It is moving with the same slowness and easiness which is probably typical of its movements for many years. We are now living in different times and our land policy should be brought up to date. I know that a Government as old as the Fianna Fáil Government cannot have any constructive ideas. There is an old saying that the longer a Party are in office, the more antique become their ideas. They become more ancient and disabled and never appear to be capable of moving away from the old policy they have been pursuing.

Land policy calls for revolutionary changes in the allocation of land— which should be given to the right type of people—and the building of houses on that land. Such revolutionary changes can help to increase the national income, stimulate production on the land and, in a small way, perhaps, help in the drive for new markets and new export outlets. This, in turn, can help to increase employment in rural Ireland and thus keep more of our young, able bodied men and women at home. The tendency now is, unfortunately, for the Government to sit back complacently while the flight from the land continues. To say the least of it, that is an unwise attitude aimed at destruction. It is an attitude which will have the effect of making our countryside completely derelict.

We must get away from the policy at present in operation. The Government and the Minister must by now be well aware that it has failed in the past and is still failing, that now is the time for radical changes. The Minister will not get away with saying the Land Commission is working properly, that everything is all right. The Land Commission is merely the instrument of Government policy and that policy is not progressive. In the Land Commission, we need new plans and men with energy, initiative and ability to put these plans into effect. If that need is filled, it will lead to better, more prosperous and happier conditions throughout rural Ireland then we can report at the present time.

I want to start by saying that I appreciate the Minister's task is a very difficult one and that in this Estimate he and the Government are trying to deal with the whole question of the allocation and division of land. I know that this task must cause the Minister numerous headaches. I want him therefore to understand that while I propose to be severely critical of many aspects of Land Commission policy, I do appreciate that there are no ways in which these can be solved overnight. I do suggest, though, that if he considers some of my suggestions worthwhile, he should adopt them. I believe they will help him to solve many of his problems.

On page 2 of his opening statement, the Minister refers to the effect of the eighth round of adjustment in salaries and wages on the Estimate and I should like to say that I trust he has not forgotten that the manual workers employed by the Land Commission are still awaiting the effects of that round of increases. I hope he also remembers that while the majority—I think 24 out of 27—of the county councils are operating a five-day week of 45 hours for their manual workers, employees of the Land Commission engaged in the fencing and building of roads are still working a 48-hour, 5½ day week, while in the building trade the labourers are on a 45-hour, five-day week. Because of the possible repercussions, the Minister would be well advised to straighten that matter out. Workers are very often interchangeable from one position to another.

Let me mention also the plight of workers on farms resumed by the Land Commission. The Minister spoke about compensation for those men when the Land Commission take possession of the farms on which they work. It is one of the things on which I disagree violently with the Land Commission. Many of these workers have lost their jobs already and I can quote many instances of severe hardship. There is the case of one young man who had been employed for five or six years on a farm. When it was acquired by the Land Commission, he got nothing and eventually had to emigrate in order to maintain his family. In the case of another farm acquired some time ago, I wrote to the Commission about an employee, but that man has still got nothing, although he was a long time on the farm, while other employees have been dealt with. When I say "dealt with", I mean they have got small sums of money.

The Minister appreciates that giving a worker a sum of about £200 which, in Meath, represents roughly the price of workers have lost their jobs and it employee worked, is not dealing equitably with this problem. Where this concerns herds who have been in control of such farms and who have been usually maintained on the farms, the Land Commission have, in most cases, been reasonably generous and have given sizeable portions of the farms to them. In most cases these men have turned out to be good farmers. On the other hand other types of workers have lost their jobs and it is not fair to give them £150 or £200 as compensation. Such men would be capable of earning that sum in a few months as employees of the Land Commission. I mentioned the case of a man who got nothing at all and suggest now that no matter for how short a period a man has been employed on one of those farms, even if it were for only one year, if he loses his job he is entitled to some compensation.

The Minister dealt with the availability of land and as I listened to him I thought there was a great deal of what he said with which I agreed but I could not agree with him when he spoke about the availability of land and said the pool of land was drying up. In County Meath, there are several farms owned by people who do not work them in the normal way. Many of them have been let for years and many are simply worked by people who are using them as a cover-up for the income tax they are making in big business. The Commission would be well advised to have another look at cases like that and acquire such farms.

I should like to refer particularly to the farms already in the possession of the Land Commission. The Minister may remember a reply he gave to a Question put down by me on March 15th last. He gave me a list of 29 farms in County Meath then in the possession of the Land Commission. Since then, some more have been added to that list and one or two only have been divided. There is, for instance, the Langford Estate in the Summerhill Demesne of 200 acres. It has been in the possession of the Land Commission since January 27th, 1953, during the lifetime of two Governments. I do not see why the Land Commission should set that land on the 11-months system for a period of nine years while there are people in the area badly needing land.

Then there is the estate of the Roscrea Meat Company at Newtownclonbun containing 467 acres. It has been in the possession of the Land Commission since April 17th, 1957. I cannot understand what explanation there can be for retaining such a farm for five years and letting it on the 11-months system. There is another farm, the Sweetman estate at Drumbaragh, containing 170 acres. It was acquired in October, 1958. There is another farm of almost 600 acres which is still in the possession of the Land Commission. This is happening all over the country. There are farms of 372 acres, of 274 acres, 355 acres, 612 acres still undivided and more have been added to the list this year. I do not think there is any reason for the Land Commission to acquire a farm and set it on the 11-months system. I understand the argument is made that the Land Commission can make money on this.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I know the case has been made that the Land Commission can make money on the deal by setting the land on the 11-months system, thereby adding to the revenue available for other purposes, but if a farm is acquired for distribution, I do not think it fair that it should be let on the 11-months system. People who take land on the 11-months system are notorious for their disregard of good husbandry. They take the land expecting the Land Commission to be using it the next year, and the result is that they take all they can out of it. Therefore, when that land has been in their possession for some years, it certainly is not as good as it was even when originally owned by the rancher, who had let it in grazing for half a century. I would urge the Minister to see to it that when lands are taken over, they are divided amongst the people entitled to them as quickly as possible. It is nothing short of scandalous to say that up to 7,000 acres of land can be retained in the possession of the Land Commission over a number of years.

That relates to the question of whether the pool of land available is drying up and leads us to examine the position of the people who acquire land under the Land Commission. In reply to a question of mine here some weeks ago, the Minister alleged I was trying to start a civil war between the people of Meath and the migrants. I told him then, and I want to repeat it now, that that is not true. Very many of the migrants who have come to Meath are personal friends of mine. I would go further and say that many of them are political supporters of mine. That does not bear out the contention that I am trying to start a civil war.

It is true that the migrants, like myself, resent having further people brought in until the needs of those already there are properly catered for. When people were brought to Meath in the early 'thirties and down along, the Land Commission considered a farm of 15, 20 or 25 acres to be economic. Later, it was realised that that was a ridiculous way of dealing with the situation and the size of the farm was increased. I agree with Deputy Flanagan and the Minister that the size of the farm should be about 40 acres, a mixed farm. If the Minister sees to it that these people will get a farm on which they can live, he will have the full support of everybody interested in farming; but bringing people to Meath and giving them farms not large enough to live on does not solve any problems. Indeed, it only creates greater problems.

The situation in Meath has been aggravated in recent years by people coming to the county apparently under the misapprehension that not alone were they getting a farm and house worth a considerable amount of money but, in addition, they were being guaranteed work for themselves and their families. The only work in County Meath, as in many other parts of rural Ireland, is the work already being sought by the local people. The influx of 40 to 50 families into a rural area has resulted in disrupting the entire economy of that area. Within a short time, it was a question of either the migrant families—many of them large families with grown-up children—having to emigrate to England or of the local people having to do so. That is a serious aspect which must be considered by the Minister before he continues the present policy or, as he states, expands it.

When the Minister refers to the eastern counties, I presume he specifically means Meath, because we have been the recipients of the migrants over the years. The people who have come there are, with very few exceptions, fine, decent people anxious to make a living. There are exceptions. There are the people who, because they gave away anything from half an acre which they owned exclusively in their own county, had the farm vested in them as soon as they received it. We had one famous case of a fellow who came to the farm, looked through the window, decided at once to go to the local auctioneer and sell it. The Land Commission could not do a thing about it. He did not even turn the key in the door. There are quite a number of cases of people who have come in and set their farms if the farm which was divided was originally set. They come there occasionally on holidays. That is not helping matters very much. The Minister will have to consider this matter.

If, as stated by him, it is intended to increase very much the number of migrants to County Meath and neighbouring counties and that only genuinely uneconomic holders will be considered, the Minister is building up a pile of trouble for himself. An uneconomic holder as laid down by the Land Commission and an uneconomic holder in fact are two very different persons.

The Minister says you would require over 40 acres to have an economic holding, but yet the Land Commission inspectors can tell a man with 10, 15, 20 or 25 acres beside a farm which is being divided that he is not eligible for that land. I know the case has been made on more than one occasion that a man living on a small farm in Meath who considers himself an uneconomic holder may get other work from time to time. I do not think that should be held against him. Because he must live, he must seek other employment. The fact that he may get a month's, two months' or even a year's work should not be held against him, if a farm becomes available for distribution in the area. If he were given a full-sized farm, he would be taken off the labour market. He would be able to look after himself and his family on the farm and the job he formerly occupied would then be available for somebody else.

Over a number of years, the Land Commission have been making the case that landless men should not be entitled to land. In answer to Questions in the House the Minister has said that there is nothing in the law which debars a landless man from getting land but that such a man has to take his place in the queue. I am afraid his place in the queue, over a number of years, has been away around the corner outside, because, with the exception of a man who is a herd or employed in some such capacity on a farm, such men are not being considered at all. I want to make a special plea for the farm labourers, the landless farmers' sons, who I think are entitled to a portion of land. They are people who have spent all their lives on the land; they have been reared on it and have shown that they know how to work it.

If there is one thing we have against migrants it is the fact that very many of them admit they have never worked the land before and that they know nothing about it. I agree with the Minister that they make an excellent effort to work the land, but I do not think they should be compared with people who have been all their lives on the land and who know everything about it, the proper rotation of crops, the proper way to till that land and so on. But these are the people who are passed over and who eventually have to become builders' labourers, in London, Birmingham and other places. It is not unreasonable to plead that those people should be considered when an estate is being divided and that every effort should be made by the Minister and the Land Commission to provide for them.

The manner in which enquiries made to the Land Commission are dealt with is most unsatisfactory. I do not blame the Minister or the Land Commission because, evidently, there is a tradition there built up over a number of years. Some years ago the Land Commission was a holy of holies where a number of old gentlemen sat and you might not ask any question because, while you would not get a rude answer, you were likely to get a very short one. Most of those gentlemen have passed to their reward and have been replaced by younger men with new ideas. If you go to the Land Commission to discuss something with them you are treated civilly, certainly, but if you write you get the same sort of stereotyped reply as was produced in the days of the old gentlemen. That type of reply persists and you still get it and it is not very satisfactory. I agree that the Land Commission has enough trouble in hands without trying to deal with recommendations from Deputies but if the job were properly done there would be somebody there completely above politics to deal with these matters.

If a question is asked it is not good enough to get a reply, generally on a piece of yellow paper with perhaps a typed bit in the middle of it saying that the matter is receiving attention. If somebody down the country makes some request to the Land Commission he gets in reply what is known as "the little bit of Irish". There was much talk about the Irish language during the debate on Education in the past few days but it is true—regrettably, possibly—that most of the older people in the country do not know one word of Irish and it is an insult to them to send them a little bit of paper in an envelope that may have been closed when sent out of the office but which in 99 out of 100 cases is open when it reaches the person to whom it is addressed. The only redeeming feature is that nobody can make anything out of it as it is written in Irish.

These are minor matters but the Minister and the officials should look into them because it would greatly improve public relations if farmers, particularly applicants for land, and Deputies, received replies to their enquiries which would be rather more personal than the very impersonal replies which are received at present.

I must refer to two cases in particular, one of which is of very long standing. I refer to the first because I want to know what title is required when a transfer of land takes place. If somebody transfers land to which he has a title I understand the land which he receives on migration or transfer is vested in him immediately. What happens when somebody is transferring and it transpires that the title is not clear? I raise this question because I believe one of the most unfair decisions ever taken by a Government body was taken in regard to a gentleman moved from County Cork to County Meath in the early 'forties. When he was moved, a farm in Cork was taken from him. He surrendered possession of it and for approximately two years he occupied a farm at Gibbstown while the farm in Cork was in possession of the Land Commission. At the end of two years doubt was raised about the title to the farm in Cork and a number of other issues. Subsequently a court action was taken and a decree for possession of the Gibbstown farm obtained by the Land Commission. The man appealed and won his case. Then there was a further appeal and the decision was reversed and the matter went back and forth until eventually, as the Land Commission had more money than the aggrieved person, the Land Commission won. It was not a question of justice but——

An endurance test.

An endurance test. The man was eventually evicted from the farm and not alone that but his crops were seized and put up for auction. He bid £80 for them at the auction but his bid would not be accepted by the Land Commission. Long afterwards these crops were cut by local people employed to do so and I think they were a complete loss by then. The man had to leave the farm but since then the Land Commission divided the farm in Cork. Either the Commission was right and had not a clear title to it, in which case the man should not be allowed to retain possession of the farm in Meath or it was wrong, in which case it had no right whatever to put him out of the farm in Meath. If the Land Commission was right, it could not have taken possession of the farm in Cork and have divided it—but that is what happened.

There was a good deal of high feeling in Cork about this farm and at one stage it seemed as if it were going to be left a wilderness. The Land Commission took the slates off the houses and sheds and I think sold them elsewhere. This particular case is one which I think should be reopened and investigated by the Commission and by the Minister because I believe that, with the present enlightened outlook, there can still be justice done in this matter. The man concerned is now growing very old but he still feels a deep sense of grievance because he had to give up the farm which the Land Commission subsequently divided. The other farm was given by the Land Commission to a young, unmarried man who has made very good use of it. It seemed as if there was a vendetta against this man. Perhaps the official concerned has since left the Land Commission. The name of the man who lost the farm is Michael O'Sullivan and the farm was at Gibbstown, County Meath. I shall give the Minister further particulars if he is prepared to look into the case.

The second case concerns the farm of a man living outside Navan in County Meath, out towards Proudstown racecourse. He lived in a council cottage with an acre of land. He was employed in a local factory. He worked on timber for a number of years and eventually his doctor advised him to seek outdoor employment. He left his employment and bought some cows. He and his wife have a family of three or four young children. He vested his cottage, built a cow byre and has been making a good living. The difficulty is that he has only the amount of land attached to the cottage. There was a big farm beside him from which for a number of years he had been taking grass on the 11 month system. He also had been buying in the area whatever root crops, and so on, were necessary. When the farm was divided he was not considered for a holding. He is still there, milking the cows, selling the milk and making a living out of it.

Did he give up the other job?

Yes. He gave that up about ten years ago. He would have made an excellent farmer and should have been given a portion of that estate. Is there any way in which the Land Commission can explain how this man was passed over because I think it is the most glaring case I have come across, and there are some of them in County Meath? The man's name is John Carolan of Castletown-Kilbarry, Navan. I mention this case particularly because there are other farms to be divided in that area and I do not want this to happen again because things like this draw the Land Commission into disrepute.

The possible answer is that others were more deserving.

They were not, as a matter of fact. Reference has been made to the question of houses. I should like to compliment the Minister on deciding to change the design and to consider some of the designs used by the local authorities. That is an excellent idea. While the Land Commission houses have been utilitarian nobody can deny they are drab. People are delighted at first to get a new farm and a new house but after a while they notice the houses are not all they should be. The Minister should ensure that both the houses and the outoffices have an adequate water supply. There are far too many of these Land Commission farms where somebody simply decides a pump will be sunk which can be used by three or four people. That may be all right in the winter but all wrong in the summer. I would suggest that before doing anything about the water supply the Land Commission should consult the local authority who can be most helpful in these matters. In Meath over the past few years pumps were sunk for Land Commission tenants; subsequently the lands were vested and then the pump for one reason or another was left there. The Meath County Council in some cases were anxious to take over the pumps but found a certain amount of legal tangle. In some cases the pumps were badly sited for their purpose. The Land Commission should seek the full co-operation of the local authority and ensure that whatever water supply is made available, whether it is a pumped or a piped supply, will be satisfactory. Incidentally it could be a group scheme among migrants or local people.

As regards roads being made into farms, the Land Commission would be very well advised to consult local engineers before proceeding. In County Meath the stage has been reached where almost all of the roads and laneways with more than two houses on them have been declared public roads. It is just too bad when one of those happens to be a Land Commission lane which might not have been too well designed and might lead into two fields and stop there. If the co-operation of the local engineers were sought the road might be designed in such a way as to go right through from one main road to another.

I was very interested in the suggestion that the farmers should receive assistance in building their houses. Although at present they are entitled to get £200 that is entirely inadequate and, without making any political point on it, I suggest the Land Commission should seriously consider making available the difference between the grants given by the Department of Local Government and the local authority and the cost of a reasonably-sized house. The money could be repayable and could be collected without any difficulty at all. Meath County Council can build cottages for people whose valuations are under £20 providing they fit into a certain category, but those over £20 valuation are completely out. There are a number of other things which must be taken into consideration as well.

Some time last year all local authorities were asked to state the number of houses in the local authority area that were unfit for habitation. The position in County Meath was reasonably good. There were only 1,900 houses unfit for habitation; in other counties the figure went up to 4,000 or 5,000 and some counties were so bad that the county managers were ashamed to send the list to the Department of Local Government. Some of the Deputies who were rather noisy in interrupting Deputy Oliver Flanagan when he was throwing out that suggestion belong to the counties which have not yet supplied the information mainly for the reason, I suggest, that the list goes into 8,000, 9,000 or 10,000.

The biggest difficulty is that most of the unfit houses in the rural areas belong to farmers. Those of us who live in rural Ireland know the small farmer is having a pretty lean period and is certainly not in a position to build a house for himself. He cannot avail of the grants and loans from the local authority because the repayments would be far in excess of anything he could meet. For that reason there must be some other way of solving the problem. I suggest the Minister should seriously consider, irrespective of from what side of the House the suggestion comes, bridging the gap between the amount of money available by way of grant and the amount required to build a reasonably-sized house.

There are also cases where reconstruction might be carried out to houses. I have in mind several houses that farmers are anxious to reconstruct but the amount they can get from the Department of Local Government is entirely inadequate to do the job. Until very recently — I do not know whether it was because the Department's inspectors were dealing with it in a certain way or not — if somebody wanted to reconstruct a house or to build an extra room to a house, all that was taken into consideration was the actual work he was carrying out. The situation has been changed now and if somebody applies for permission to reconstruct his house, he is told the entire house must be put into a certain condition before he can get a grant. Recently a man told me that in order to qualify for a grant of £120 he was required to spend £650 reconstructing his house. In that situation farmers living in bad houses are automatically ruled out. Reconstruction grants should be made available from the Land Commission to those people. That will help generally. It will improve the appearance of the countryside. It is true to say that the farmer who lives in a clean neat house is a better farmer than the man living in a house which is falling down around his ears. In most cases, it is old age which is the cause of houses being in the condition they are in. I would appeal to the Minister to consider that aspect very seriously.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

The system of giving a five-acre plot to an agricultural labourer has been almost completely discontinued in County Meath. I would ask the Minister to reconsider that policy because, while some of these people could never hope to become farmers in their own right, these plots are of tremendous benefit to them. A man employed with a farmer, as a county council worker, or on afforestation, can grow on his own five-acre plot his own requirements of vegetables and fruit; indeed, very often he can keep a cow for his household needs also. He is very often what people in the country describe as a very "comfortable man". The amount of land required to implement this policy of giving plots to labourers would not amount to a great deal. A revival of that particular policy would give great satisfaction. There are many ways to safeguard the position. The best way, perhaps, is to vest and consolidate the plot with the county council cottage to ensure that it is not sold. In fact, very few plots have been disposed of. I ask the Minister to revive that policy.

Some years back, the Land Commission went in in a big way for providing cow plots. I know a number of these plots were later handed back to the Land Commission, but the ones that were handed back were those sited in areas where the population was sparse. Only the Lord knows why the plots were sited in these areas. Secondly, some of them were of very little use; nine or ten acres of bad land do not constitute a cow plot. Thirty or forty acres with water, would be the ideal. If my suggestion is adopted, the Minister will find a widespread demand.

With regard to the purchase of land by non-nationals—this has been referred to by both the Minister and Deputy Flanagan—the position is as the Minister stated. The Land Commission are keeping a register showing those who have bought farms in their own names. However, anybody who lives in the country, and goes to the trouble of finding out, knows that huge tracts of land and a tremendous number of farms have passed into the hands of non-nationals. These are bought mainly through the local auctioneer or solicitor for someone whose name is not disclosed. It is true that the practice of forming a company and buying land for that company has been stopped, but purchases of large tracts of land and farms by non-nationals are continuing under cover of the local solicitor or auctioneer.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

The point I want to make is that, if these people give substantial employment, as many of them do, on the farms they acquire and are, in fact, a decided improvement on those who preceded them, there is not much local objection to non-nationals. Where, however, non-nationals buy farms and set them on the 11-months system, as their predecessors did, there is objection. I know of one case in which the number of employees was cut from 20 down to two. These are the cases about which I think the Land Commission should do something.

I also suggest that an eye should be kept on those who buy farms, under one pretext or another, and then want to bring in their own nationals and employ them on these farms. We had one wonderful offer from a gentleman from Germany. He wanted to bring in a land steward. He was going to pay him the princely wage of £6 per week. The minimum agricultural wage for the area was something in the region of £5 19s. per week. He pointed out that, of course, he was going to give this steward a trip home to Germany every year. There are plenty of land stewards and agricultural workers in this country, capable of doing the job better than any German. I suggest to the Minister that the Land Commission should take steps to acquire such farms.

Finally, I suggest the Minister should walk very warily, indeed, in his efforts to increase the number of migrations to the eastern counties. We have always treated them, when they came here, as if they had been living there all their lives. I think they themselves will say that the Meath people are well known for their courtesy to people who came in there. We would even be courteous to Deputy Leneghan if he came to us occasionally—and that would be pretty hard. At the same time, we would ask the Minister to ensure that local interests are as far as possible catered for before any migration on a large scale takes place. There are portions of County Meath where there are numerous small farms. In North Meath there is land as bad as any in North Mayo or anywhere else. The Minister and his predecessors have done a little about this matter but very much more could be done.

Having listened to Deputy O.J. Flanagan here this morning, we need no longer wonder why Deputy Sweetman as Minister for Finance threw up his hands in despair and gave in. If he had half a dozen Deputies O.J. Flanagan in the Cabinet to deal with, I am sure they would make a quick job of any cash that would be around the place.

According to Deputy O.J. Flanagan, everything will be done when he gets into office. All the farmers' sons in the country will get land. All the boys will be brought down to the rich land and it will be divided amongst them. They will all get new houses. By Jove, when he is Minister, he will do a tour of all the farms, settle the affairs of all the farmers and make their wills for them. Does Deputy O.J. Flanagan realise that that will mean the influx into this House of further legal luminaries like my friend who will keep ringing the bell every hour? If Deputy O.J. Flanagan will settle all their affairs for the farmers, help them to make their wills and, in general, look after them in that line, there will be nothing for Deputy McQuillan to do down the country.

Deputy O.J. Flanagan also told us about the 1950 Land Act. That Act was introduced here by a lazy Minister who wanted to shift all the responsibility he could on to the Civil Service and to leave himself with nothing to do. I had experience here in the past month of that Land Act and of the result of it when I wanted to raise matters connected with it. I would refer the House to Page 159 of the Book of Estimates. I am thinking of the wrongs done in my constituency by the Department of Lands. That is one of the effects of the 1950 Land Act.

Deputy O.J. Flanagan would give 45-acre holdings. Each would cost about £4,000. Then add the cost of buildings, premises, and so on. A man would be very well off if he got a gift like that. We hear talk about migrants. I wonder what is the position in those counties from which migrants are being brought? I wonder what is the position in those so-called congested areas? I have in mind County Galway and Gowla Farm. Three thousand acres were taken over by the Sugar Company and turned into first-class land by Lieutenant General Costello, the General Manager of the Sugar Company. There are 20,000 acres more of that land.

The Deputy would not know. Their records should be examined. We should try to discover the economics of such undertakings and observe the results. If it costs a certain amount to turn a bog into good arable land—and it has been proved that it can be done—how much does it cost to do that work elsewhere?

£2,000 an acre.

That is the trouble with idiots like that.

That expression should not be used and should be withdrawn.

Well, Sir——

There should be no discussion—just withdraw the expression.

I withdraw the expression. The Land Commission should go into the economics of that under-taking and see if it would be cheaper to have land converted—as undoubtedly has been done in the case of some 3,000 acres—into good soil and move people on to it than to have migration. I think it would be a far more economic proposition than to shift people as is being done at the moment. To my mind, it would be a far better and a far sounder proposal.

I am worried about 1,200 acres of first-class land that was taken over in the Whitegate area by the Oil Refinery Company. Some 200 acres of it were wired in for refinery premises and refinery purposes. The balance of that land, over 1,000 acres of the best land in East Cork, has been set by the company for the past number of years. Four crops of wheat were grown in four successive years. Then, when the land failed to grow wheat, it grew at least one crop, to my knowledge, of barley. It never saw grass seed.

For the past two years, the weeds have been growing on those 1,000 acres that are set each year for grazing by the Oil Refinery Company. The Land Commission take note of holdings where there is bad husbandry. It is high time they stepped in there. At least 10 agricultural labourers, formerly employed there, are still unemployed. There is room there for many families to get a livelihood. Surely it would be better to do that than to have land being reduced to such a condition that, in a very few years, it will be good for nothing?

The position is bad enough for the people down there, many of whom were previously evicted from the lands at Finure. When Deputy Blowick was Minister for Lands, he decided that it was not in the interests of the country that Finure should be taken over and handed back to the unfortunate people who had previously been evicted, and the land is at present held by a non-resident German, side by side with the 1,200 acres held by the oil refinery. Those are the matters that should occupy the minds of the Land Commission but when we endeavour to get information we are met by the 1950 Land Act, a production of Deputy Blowick's genius.

I should like to impress upon the Minister the necessity for speeding up the division of the Frank estate in Kinsale and the Green estate. I do not believe it is good that the Land Commission should show an example of bad husbandry by holding over land for a fairly considerable number of years and setting it each year on the 11-months system. It is very hard to expect the officials of the Land Commission to work on the basis of bad husbandry in the case of the oil refinery company when they are practising it themselves.

We heard a lot of talk about titles. I hope we are now finished with the situation I found when I went to the Land Registry and discovered that considerable areas of this country were registered in the title of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for War. I hope that phase of our history has now ended.

Another important matter with which I want to deal is the question of embankments. Last October, three embankments in my immediate neighbourhood were broken in by the tide. Two of the three had just been repaired and the tide came in and made 12 breaches in them again. The second of those 12 has now been repaired, leaving ten to be done. Anyone looking at the condition of the land there will realise that it will be absolutely useless for farming purposes for a period of at last seven years. One wonders whether it is to be a regular thing for the Land Commission, every year or every six months, to repair embankments at a cost of some hundreds of pounds. I endeavoured to find a permanent solution to that matter. I raised it with the Minister for Lands and I found that away back in 1934, I think, the Department of Lands and the Office of Public Works took a tour and decided that it would not be an economic proposition.

There have been many changes since 1934 and what may then have undoubtedly been an unecomonic proposition—though I question it—could be a very economic proposition today, particularly when you realise that every six months the Land Commission will have to carry out repairs on embankments covering 500 or 600 acres of land, and when you realise equally that the local authorities are losing somewhere around £1,000 to £1,500 a year in rates through the flooding of the land. If the land is derelict, the farmer need not pay rates. At least that was the decision of the county manager in Cork county.

Even if the Land Commission were to get no assistance from anyone, and no financial assistance from any other sources, it would pay them and be a good financial proposition, in view of the fact that they have to repair the embankments every year. There is no good in their pretending they are not responsible. They are. If one of those farmers go the brainwave tomorrow of suing the Land Commission for damages, he would recover from the Land Commission. I have got that on better legal advice than the advice of any of the legal luminaries in this House.

Looking at the Estimate, I can find only £5 allotted for investment for the maintenance of embankments, sluices, drains and roads.

The Deputy is referring to the wrong subhead.

There is something wrong somewhere. I suggest to the Minister that as a good business proposition the Land Commission should tackle the whole question of these embankments. The matter is dragging along year after year and there is no improvement but if we have another occasion like we had a couple of months ago in Cork, it will clear every embankment along the coast.

For a considerable time, I have been bringing up the position in Garryvoe. The Land Commission came in there and, in an act of criminal lunacy—I could not describe what they did in any other way—compelled the tenants to purchase their holdings and left outside the scheme a sluice, all because the landlord had a duck shoot there. It paid the gentleman who held that duck shoot there to keep the sluice in such condition that the whole countryside is flooded because the more water he has around the sluice, the more ducks there are to shoot. I have been bringing this matter to the notice of the Department for the past 15 years but they still have not taken possession of the single acre that would enable the sluice to be operated properly.

I am told that it is proposed to bring in a coast erosion Bill. I hope the Minister will tell us how soon we can expect it because the sooner it is brought in, the better it will be for the farmers in my constituency.

I do not know what is the position of the Land Commission regarding the taking over of holdings held in conacre by non-residents of this country. These holdings are very largely responsible for the uneconomic position of small farmers to-day. I have been shown cheques of up to £30,000 paid by the milling companies to individual farmers for wheat, wheat harvested in one case by a gentleman living in Kenya who, in addition to the 5,000 or 6,000 acres of his own, has Dublin auctioneers travelling around to lands held by the Land Commission and taking them up for the growing of wheat.

We are told that we have to pay a levy on our wheat for over-production. That levy is caused by people like this Kenya rancher. It would pay anyone running from 500 to 1,000 acres of land to take his profit of a quarter of a barrel of wheat from such a large acreage, but if you offer a small farmer, of about 35 acres a profit of a quarter of a barrel on which to rear his family, there is not much he can do with it.

The Land Commission must take their share of responsibility for that because, instead of dividing land, they are holding it up and the gentlemen who work it in that way are gentlemen who live outside our jurisdiction. Those are matters which I am anxious the Minister should look into.

There is one other matter which may be a product of the famous 1950 Act. If land is being taken over for division, can that land be paid for in cash or by land bonds by the Land Commission? I am informed that it can be paid for only in land bonds and that has prevented many voluntary sales to the Land Commission all over the country. Nobody wants to have his farm taken away but most of the people who have land for sale want the money. They do not want land bonds which they can convert at £70 for £100. They are no good to them. If that is only a rule of the Land Commission, it should be easy to rectify it. If it is one of the legacies we got from Deputy Blowick under the 1950 Act, I suggest that the Minister bring in an amending clause as soon as possible.

Deputy Flanagan was anxious about the preservation of game. I wonder if he ever had a good look at a field of beet in the morning after a bunch of hares had spent the night in it. I do not think the small farmers would be too anxious about the fate of the hares. Now, since we are going into the vegetable line, I would ask Deputy Flanagan to take a good look at a field of cabbage or cauliflower after the game birds have finished with it. Those of us who put out a good dose of Killcrow found that it was not all crows we killed. We found that it was the game birds that were lightening our pockets.

I hate having to come back here year after year and raise the very same matters with the Land Commission. I remember coming in here a long time ago about the case of an unfortunate fellow living on an uneconomic holding in West Cork. The Land Commission decided to take him off the land there and to give him an alternative holding so they shifted him to a place called Watergrasshill in my side of the country. He spent four and a half years there and would pay nothing. At the end of that time, they succeeded in putting him out, but he came back and took forcible possession and was sent to gaol for six months. It cost £150 to shift that man from West Cork to Watergrasshill, but after six and a half years, they were able to lift him body and bones with all his cattle and transfer him back to the little holding in West Cork which they had taken over for the relief of congestion. That is an illustration of the manner in which activities in that benevolent Department were carried out in those days. I hope I shall not have to raise these matters again next year. If I have to, I shall be a lot more severe than I was today.

Coming from Sligo-Leitrim, I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the difficulties our farmers are experiencing at the moment. Out of a total of 17,000 holdings in that constituency, 13,000 are under £20 valuation. By that, I do not mean that they are all around £18 or £19 valuation. Many of them are down to £4, £5, or £6 valuation. Due to the increased cost of living and the little attention that has been given to those hardworking people, they are forced to flee from the land and the country is being stripped of its population. I live in the very midst of those people in County Leitrim and nobody has a better knowledge than I have of what they have to go through.

The holding of £4 or £5 valuation is not today what it was years ago. Conditions have changed so much that nobody is going to do today what was done in the past. The countryside has become mechanised and people want to live as their neighbours are living or they will not stay on the land. The Government would need to take immediate steps and everywhere land is available for division they should go to work immediately. One different occasions, I have been approached by hardworking people from over a very wide area to see that such and such a holding was divided and that these people would get portion of it added to their land. I can say without fear of contradiction that in most cases progress has been slow. Time and again, we receive the same type of letter to the effect that "Your recommendation is being considered".

Only recently, after receiving about three letters from the Land Commission, I put down a Parliamentary Question regarding a particular holding. The answer I received from the Minister was that the holding had gone to a private purchaser. That meant that I as a Deputy was being fooled and that the people I represent were being fooled. The holding was gone and yet I was receiving those letters. I would ask the Minister to check on that and see, where a holding has been taken over by the Land Commission, that we are informed, and if the holding is sold, that we are also informed.

People were never more anxious to get land. It is a sure sign that our people are not anxious to leave the land, if they get the encouragement they should get. Everywhere that land is ready for division, we find the local people extremely anxious to get their share. Even where some hardworking farmer is lucky enough to have a few pounds to spare, he is only too anxious to invest it in a bit of land adjacent to his holding. That is why the Government should take immediate action and see that these people are given all the facilities they should be given.

Today we hear a lot about schemes and what should be done, and there are references to huge machinery and the reclamation of boggy land, but we have thousands of acres of productive land which, if manures were provided at cheaper rates and applied to it, would be of far more benefit to the country. That would be of greater benefit than telling us about what could be done on boggy land while we neglect land that would need no drainage or big machinery, land which merely needs the application of manures.

If the small farmer, the man struggling on a small holding, is not able to provide housing accommodation for his family without some aid, other than grants, he will not stay on the land. From our experience as county councillors and Dáil representatives, we know that the type of farmer who is not able to avail of the two grants certainly will not get a loan. For some seven years, we have been receiving circulars about what was going to be done to provide houses for those who are not able to provide them for themselves, but then we discovered all along that the proposals were shelved to a later date. Now a survey has been completed. I think it has been made known to seven county councils and is about to be made known to a number of other county councils. I would appeal to the Government, when the survey is published, to make every effort to help those unfortunate people who are not able to provide houses for themselves. I can assure the Minister, or whatever Department is concerned, that if those people had their houses built and could settle with their families, the last thing they would want to do is to go to England or elsewhere. People are ashamed to live in bad houses side by side with their neighbours who live in good houses. It is only natural that they should seek to improve their position.

There are two estates in my area to which I should like to refer—one in Leitrim and the other in Sligo. There is the Lisadell estate which has 300 or 400 acres of good land which has been neglected for the past few years. For 20 years, the people in the area have been clamouring to have something done about those broad acres which would again make really good land, if they were divided and looked after. I would appeal to the Minister to do something about this estate and see that the people who are anxious to have it divided receive their share of it. They have approached me time and time again and I am most anxious to be able to tell them something is being done about it.

Another estate is the White Estate at the Five Mile Burn in my constituency. This has been a commonage for the past five or six years and anyone can drive his cattle on to it. A number of people are wondering if they will get portion of it. They have made application time and time again, but they are still waiting without knowing anything. The Department should make some effort to have that estate settled up also so that the people who are holding on to their small holdings will know where they stand and whether they are to get portions of the holdings.

Another matter which I should like to bring to the notice of the Government is one which I mentioned before in the Dáil. It concerns the position where a farm of reasonably good land is purchased by the Forestry Department and it lies side by side with a farm, the owner of which is most anxious to improve his situation and enlarge his holding. On about four or five occasions, I made representations to the Department here with a view to that man getting a portion of that land. The answer was always the same. The Forestry Department were not prepared to give one acre of that land.

That does not make sense, in view of the fact that we are told we should try to keep the people on the land. Surely a very hardworking farmer should be given a few acres when he is prepared to live there? Surely it would be far better to give a man a few acres of land at his doorstep than for the Forestry Department to move in and plant it? It would be better to give it to the man who is prepared to do the work.

I do not know if I am in order in dealing with another matter. I refer to people anxious to change from their present holding due to the fact that it has not been drained. There has been no drainage in respect of those lands for the past number of years. I recently met a man who told me he had a good holding but there was no drainage— the holding was waterlogged all the year round. His anxiety was to leave that holding and get into a better farm.

I would appeal to the Government to try to provide more money for drainage. We still have a number of people who are prepared to spend money on the land, if they get it. These are the things that will help to keep our people at home. Of course, there are people who will go but there are also the people of whom I speak. A few people complained to me that they had good holdings, if they had money enough to drain them.

The Minister and his Department are to be complimented and congratulated upon the Estimate presented to the House this morning. Certainly, in rural Ireland it is more than welcome. No matter how I could express myself, I would be unable to thank the Minister enough for what he has done for rural Ireland. He stated in this remarks that there would be a greater drive in future in regard to migrants and the resettling of the people left behind. That is a welcome gesture to the people of the west in general who live on small holdings. It is the greatest thing that could be done for rural Ireland and for the poor people of the west in general.

It has come to my notice lately—I hope I am not right—that certain engineers in the Land Commission are leaving to take up work in other spheres of engineering life. I do not know whether that is true or not. If it is true, no time should be lost in appointing engineers to take their place. Without engineers, the rearrangement of land vacated by migrants cannot be completed in a short time. In the past, considerable difficulty has been encountered—it was probably lack of co-operation in certain cases—in respect of the distribution of such land. From the townland of Ballinakill, Lettermullen, in 1933, migrants were taken but even to the present day, it has not been rearranged. What the Minister has done should solve that problem and that is mainly why I welcome it.

I want to speak about the setting of land which has been given up or taken up by the Land Commission for migrants. In certain cases, it used to be given out to the people living nearest to it or to people living on the smallest holdings adjoining it. Twelve months ago—I hope this does not occur this year—what happened was that one of the engineers went out and held an auction. I think that should not be done. That practice should be stopped immediately because it is a very dangerous practice. One or two well to do men in an area might be prepared to pay more for the land and the local man—and the land might belong to his uncle—would not get it. I hope that situation will not arise in the future.

I should like to compliment the Minister and his Department also on the division of turbary rights in the west in general. This matter of turbary has been a serious problem in the west generally and in particular in that whole stretch of country from Spiddal or Barna to the far end of Lettermullen and in Rosmuck and Camas. In the whole of that area, you have people without turbary rights and some of them have to travel 20 miles to and from their homes to cut their turf and keep the home fires burning.

There should be co-operation between the Forestry Section of the Department and the Minister's Department in regard to turbary rights. The two sections should get together and find out, when land is being taken over, exactly what the turbary resources are and how many people are in need of turbary. They should be given portion of it to keep them in fuel.

With regard to the rearrangement of holdings, one comes across families who are very poor and living in very bad houses. If the Minister's Department have to shift or take away the owner of a certain portion of land and take him from one field to another, they will build a new house and stable, but in respect of the person for whom they do not do that, they give him a grant to build the house. I should like to point out to the Minister that the person left on that site in many cases is too poor to build any type of house whatever. In cases of hardship of that sort the Department should build houses for them. There is nothing more I want to say except again to compliment the Minister on the Estimate, on the manner in which he introduced it and on the plans it holds for the future.

Although many people might not agree with me, I am one of those who think the Department of Lands the most important Department in the State. I say that because of the fact that it is entrusted with the responsibility for the acquisition, division and rearrangement of what is our greatest natural resource— the land—and by reason of the complexity of this whole question of land distribution, this Department has had to contend with problems which no other Department has had to face. I think that, by and large, since the foundation of this State, successive Ministers in this Department have approached their task with a sense of responsibility and urgency, so that now it must be admitted that during the past 40 years considerable progress has been made by the Land Commission.

Reading the Minister's opening speech, I was particularly glad to learn that the Department of Lands, unlike the Department of Education or other Departments, has been taking stock of our present situation, particularly in the light of the major economic and social changes ahead. The publication of the report on the small western farms, though it does not contain a lot that is revolutionary, is invaluable as an indication of what we are thinking and it is something which could be emulated by other Departments. The Minister dealt at length with some of the matters raised in that report. He made particular reference to what is perhaps the most fundamental and important aspect of land distribution and of agricultural development—the question of achieving a viable farm unit.

This question of viability is one which is engaging the attention of practically every Government in Western Europe and has been for some time past. It is not so very long ago that I read a report of a survey made by the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation into the viability of small-scale farming. The report of that survey is a very interesting document and is of particular interest to us here. In all sincerity, I submit that the report on the small western farms is a valuable addition to the survey report I have just mentioned on the question of viability.

I agree fully with the Minister when he questions the wisdom of the expression "standard holding". I, too, feel that if we got away from misinterpretations of this kind and concentrated more on achieving a viable farm unit for all parts of the country, we would be approaching the subject in a much more realistic fashion. In trying to determine the viability of a farm unit, many other factors besides acreage must be taken into account—factors like the quality of the land and its utilisation, the system of farming practised, the availability of farm and family labour, the extent to which mechanisation can be applied and the possibility of promoting co-operation.

These are all factors which have a direct bearing on the determination of the viability of farms. There is, in addition, the factor of the crops and livestock which can be produced efficiently. From all this, we must conclude that there is an indication here of forward thinking on the part of the Department of Lands. It is reflected in the publication of the report on small western farms and in the Minister's speech. I believe that the creation of viable farm units must, in the years ahead, be a major consideration in the rearrangment and division of holdings. The aim must be to create a viable family farm unit which will provide a good living for the hardworking, thrifty farmer and his family.

There are a few other aspects of land division to which I should like to refer. Most of them apply in a particular way to my native county of Limerick. First of all, we have in Limerick, by reason of the fact that our traditional mode of farming is dairying, a category of people known as dairymen. These in many cases are second or later sons of farmers who had to move out and who perhaps got some money as their share of the farms and who, rather than emigrate or go into business, rented a few acres of land and put in cows. Some of these men have made tremendous strides because they are hardworking and progressive. They have been carrying on quite well, providing a living for themselves and their families through milk production on rented land. I feel there is a special case for consideration of this type of man in the allocation of holdings.

Quite recently, I spoke to one of those people. He had been renting land for the past ten years on which he kept a herd. He produced receipts for the payment of rent during those ten years and he reckoned he has paid out about £8,000 under that heading. He owns no land and I think he is the type of farmer we should encourage. In fact, I submit that type of farmer is worthy of special consideration.

There is another type of farmer who is somewhat similar but who works on a smaller scale—the cottier. There are a considerable number of cottiers in my locality, all hardworking men who started out with only one cow and now have five or six and, in addition, have small tracts of land rented. Cottiers of that type who have proved themselves hardworking and efficient and who have been able to carry on making a living on rented land are also worthy of consideration.

There is a third category in which I am particularly interested. This embraces the whole question of farm apprentices. I read recently in the newspapers that the Government were about to implement a farm apprenticeship scheme. I am wholeheartedly in favour of this because I believe we will never really have completed the programme of land distribution until we make it possible for a young and well-trained farmer to acquire a holding. I look forward to the implementation of a farm apprenticeship scheme.

That question would seem to arise on another Estimate.

I apologise, Sir. I wish to deal with another point which was referred to by the Minister in his opening statement. It is the question of the purchase of land by aliens. It is a difficult problem and it is giving rise to a considerable amount of anxiety. The position in my area is that farmland is being bought by foreigners. We have no objection to foreigners acquiring land for the purpose of establishing industry—in fact, we welcome them wholeheartedly— but it is quite another matter when they are buying farmland. About a fortnight ago, I was shocked when my attention was drawn to an advertisement in a foreign newspaper offering for sale a very large farm in my neighbourhood. I have been thinking over this quite a lot and wondering if it would be possible to introduce some sort of control whereby, if a man advertises his farm for sale in a foreign periodical, he will be compelled to advertise it in an Irish one also. It is entirely wrong that good farmland here should be offered for sale unknown to the people of Ireland, thereby precluding Irish people from acquiring the land and precluding the Land Commission from stepping in. I am glad the Minister referred to this problem and I hope some form of control will be imposed.

I wish to conclude by saying that I welcome the realistic and forward thinking on the part of the Department of Lands and I look forward to considerable progress in the future.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I wish to make some observations on the system of land division whereby uneconomic smallholders within a mile of a farm being divided are not entitled to any land. That may have been all right in the days of the horse and cart and the donkey, but in these days of good transport a distance of a mile is nothing. I have raised this matter on numerous occasions and have tried to get this outmoded rule abolished. It has outlived its usefulness. Small farmers in my constituency have been deprived of land because of this rule and, even at this late stage, I should like the Land Commission to consider abolishing it. When I made a case for uneconomic holders in County Dublin, I was told there was not an uneconomic holding within a mile of the place being divided. According to my information, even those within half a mile were debarred.

In County Dublin there are people whose families have been taking land on conacre over three or four generations. The annual annuity for such land is very high. I have known cases where the grandsons of those who originally acquired conacre were classified as landless men by the Land Commission although they made a good living out of taking conacre at a considerable price. Where conacre farmers have proved themselves over three or four generations to be good farmers but have never been able to accumulate enough money to purchase land, the Land Commission should give them special consideration and not debar them from receiving land by classifying them as landless men.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I ask the Land Commission to reconsider the case of conacre farmers who have proved themselves good farmers and, in cases where the livelihood of such people will be taken away if land is divided, to regard them not as landless men but as conacre farmers and give them due consideration. The same applies to industrious cottiers who have had conacre land and who tried to till their own cottage plots. I should like these people to be placed also in the category of good and prudent applicants.

Listening to some speakers this morning, one would imagine the Land Commission was holding land which was available and that that was why we had so many small holdings. If all the land of Ireland were acquired and divided, we should still have small holdings. The Land Commission have done a very good job over the years. In the past, when I first came to this House, holdings of 21 or 22 acres were being given to farmers. Such holdings are too small to be economic. In many cases, even in County Dublin near good markets such holdings proved completely uneconomic and unworkable. People tilled the land until it soured and then had to look for other land. I am glad, therefore, that for some years past the Land Commission have adopted a different attitude and are allotting reasonable holdings of about 35 acres now. While we might be able to do more by giving a little to everybody, it is better to be a fair and to give people a chance of living.

It has been said that many people are leaving the land. That has always been true. Many of them will come back to it. All my life I have seen people leaving the land but some of them come back. The only thing I can see that will keep people from leaving the land is to have a great revival of the co-operative movement so as to reduce expenses. Unfortunately, in some areas, our people are not co-operative, while the reverse is true in other areas. In adversity in the past there was a greater co-operative spirit than there is now when people are more prosperous. A revival of the co-operative sprit would help to keep people on the land by helping them to produce more cheaply. One tractor should be capable of doing the work for five or six farms, for instance. This would lead to a better standard of living. Co-operative marketing schemes could be developed if the matter were discussed in an intelligent way. The day is fast approaching when that co-operation will be necessary, if we are to survive. The day of the individual small farmer standing out on his own, especially when people are leaving the land and he cannot get labour, is nearly over and we are at the stage when Christian co-operation is necessary.

Because we speak of co-operative farming, people say we mean something else but we simply mean that it is in accordance with the Christian outlook to co-operate and help one another and what we say should not be interpreted otherwise. The sooner we begin to co-operate in every parish the better. In County Dublin, we have tried the co-operative system in regard to the sale of vegetables when the Dublin market is glutted and we have tried to sell them in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Co-operation is essential in every aspect of farm life, especially when entering the Common Market.

While the Minister is doing a very good job, even if it were better, unless the people awake to the position and try to help one another by co-operation, the Minister, the Government, or any Government will not be able to do anything for them. There are schemes for the improvement of land which can be availed of. Housing in rural areas has been improved out of recognition, and farmers have a better way of living. There is a more intelligent outlook generally. With co-operation, we can do a good deal more to brighten the lives of people in rural Ireland by sharing their joys and their sorrows and helping them to raise their standard of living.

Co-operation can be applied not only to the improvement of land but also to the buying of agricultural seeds, manures and machinery and even cattle, if necessary. The day of the individual has gone; even the individual nation cannot stand alone because the Common Market means co-operation between various countries, all trying to do better for themselves. That is the situation we must face.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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