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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Nov 1962

Vol. 197 No. 9

Adjournment Debate. - Appointment of County Donegal Postman.

We remember that, on 14th November, Question No. 47 was addressed by me to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs concerning the appointment of a postman for the St. Johnston district. I asked the Minister this Question:

....if he has appointed a postman to St. Johnston Post Office, County Donegal, the date and nature of such appointment, and the circumstances he took into consideration in arriving at his decision.

The Minister replied:

An auxiliary postman was appointed at St. Johnston Post Office on 12th November, 1962. The appointment was an unestablished one. The most suitable qualified person was appointed from a list of persons nominated by the Employment Exchange.

It would be contrary to practice to furnish any information regarding the claims or qualifications of applicants as this would entail disclosing information obtained in confidence concerning these persons.

Arising out of that question and reply, certain supplementary questions were put by me to the Minister. The major question I asked was if the Minister would explain why two interviews were held for this post. The Minister told me he had no supplementary information that two interviews were held.

I have evidence here that an interview was held for this post on 30th January, 1962. I understand that that was held because the man who, previous to that, was carrying the post had resigned for some reason or another. The person appointed by the postmaster in Lifford from that interview was a man named William Edward Carlin, Church Street, St. Johnston.

I might read this letter from the postmaster to Mr. Carlin, written on the day of the interview:

With further reference to the interview held in this Office today, please report at St. Johnston Post Office at 7.35 a.m. on Monday the 5th February, 1962, for duty on the St. Johnston-Ardagh post. In the meantime, you should take steps to get a Birth Certificate which you should send in to me when obtained.

Two days later, the same man received a letter from the postmaster which read:

With reference to your proposed employment as Auxiliary Postman in St. Johnston, I have to inform you that owing to the fact that I have not completed all the necessary formalities in the matter, I will have to defer your temporary appointment until a later date. In the meantime you should take steps to procure your Birth Certificate.

Might I ask the Minister who instructed or at what time did a person instruct him or one of the officials in his Department to change or reverse the decision of two days previously? In any case, I am very suspicious that a Deputy in the North-East constituency of Donegal played a major part in having this man sacked from his post.

Carlin is married, with four of a family. He has a part-time job at something like £60 a year as a care-taker for the local waterworks. He also has ten weeks' fishing on the River Foyle as a crew man. He is ideal for a post such as was offered to him on 30th January—a post which carried a pay of £4 16s. 0d. per week; a pay that no other man, unless he had a sideline, could live on. But Carlin appreciated this post because it supplemented his then income and left him an income on which he could support his wife and four children.

Carlin, to my knowledge, gave very good and satisfactory service during the six months he held this job. I have made inquiries locally and I am at a loss to imagine what legitimate reason the Minister could take into consideration in arriving at his decision. The obvious one is that when a boy of 18 years of age displaces a married man, with four of a family, particularly when that boy is closely associated with the Fianna Fáil cumann in the village of St. Johnston, the whole thing reeks of political suspicion.

It has come to my notice that a certain Deputy in the North-East constituency of County Donegal made a promise that if this lad applied for the job he would make him a present of it. I should like to put it on record that I have no objection to any member of this Parliament trying to help everyone—boys of 18 and married men. I would do it myself but not at the expense, as would appear in this case, of the livelihood of a married man with a family.

I do not object to the boy getting a job but in this instance I think a man with four of a family should get preference. The Minister knows and will agree with me that an unmarried person seeking unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance will receive a lesser weekly allowance than a married man with four of a family. An unemployed married man is a greater burden on the Exchequer than an unemployed single man. Therefore, it is good economics, apart from everything else, to allow a married man to earn the money to enable him to rear his family and to let the younger lad, who has no ties in the country, emigrate—because emigration faces Carlin and, if he emigrates, another home is closed.

I should like also to put on record that any time that I have visited the Minister's Office I was received with courtesy. I feel it difficult to come in here tonight and to accuse the Minister of listening to political talk from the North-East constituency of Donegal. It was common knowledge in the parish of St. Johnston, and it had been common knowledge for a month before the appointment was made, that Carlin was out and Joseph Peoples was getting the job. I should like to remind the Minister and the House that that was not peculiar to his Department. We in Donegal at the moment experience jobbery at its worst.

The Deputy may refer only to the one particular instance.

Perhaps the Deputy was referring to the Minister's Department.

This particular instance is the only instance that can be referred to now.

Possibly on a question of principle, in the Minister's Department.

I am anticipating, from the way the Deputy spoke.

Perhaps, if the Ceann Comhairle would hear the Deputy?

He would have said it then.

With the greatest respect, surely the Ceann Comhairle should not anticipate what the Deputy is going to say?

I am not anticipating. He gave a clear indication of the direction in which he was travelling.

The Ceann Comhairle should not lift me before I fall. What I was coming to was this. Approximately two years ago, two gentlemen in my parish received——

This is clearly a different matter.

It is linked up with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

This appointment was made only recently. The Deputy may not go back to discuss what happened two years ago.

Surely I should be allowed to develop my argument?

If it is part of the res gestae, surely he is entitled to refer to it?

The only res gestae we have in this case is the appointment of this particular postman.

I bow to your ruling, Sir, but surely the res gestae is entitled to come into this?

The only res gestae is the appointment of the postman referred to. The Deputy alleges it was made in an irregular fashion. That is the only thing he may discuss.

Am I not allowed to develop that?

The Deputy may develop the matter which he is raising on the Adjournment, but only that.

Thank you, Sir. I would like to be allowed to do that. Two years ago, a letter arrived from another Department concerning the Department of Posts and Telegraphs inquiring from a junior postman and the secretary of the Fianna Fáil cumann——

Surely this has nothing to do with it?

If it is corruption, surely it is better that it be exposed here?

I cannot allow the Deputy enlarge the matter. The Deputy will either deal with this case or resume his seat.

I shall come back to the point, if you will allow me, Sir.

I am asking the Deputy to deal with this particular case, and only this case.

I bow to your ruling, Sir.

I am not asking the Deputy to do anything except deal with the case he asked permission to raise.

That is what I am doing, Sir.

It is not. If the Deputy continues to argue, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

On the question of this appointment, two interviews were held. One was held on 30th January and one at a later stage, some time in October. I should like the Minister to quote the birthdate of the person now appointed. It should be easy for him to have that information because an applicant is obliged to submit a birth certificate. I should like the Minister to tell me also if the person now appointed received a letter from the postmaster in Lifford for that second interview. I should like to know the date on which that same person registered as unemployed at the labour exchange and whether, in fact, the labour exchange invited or notified this person to attend at the second interview.

In conclusion, I should like to say that at a recent county council meeting a councillor got up and openly admitted that those who had done most for the Fianna Fáil Party would get the jobs.

Surely that is enlarging the scope?

That excludes even the decent, honest-to-goodness Fianna Fáil supporter, who I have no doubt exists. It would appear that even though a person supported the Fianna Fáil Party up to now——

This is a matter of the appointment of a postman——

I am still on that.

——and the discussion of Donegal County Council relative to corruption because of Fianna Fáil administration or otherwise does not come into this.

It does.

The Minister's administration of his Department relative to the appointment of this particular postman is being discussed and nothing else.

I was saying I firmly believe that if a person who supported the Fianna Fáil Party up to now applied for this job, he would not be considered because the person who got it was either a secretary or acting secretary of the local Fianna Fáil cumann. In discharging his duties, the Minister should take into consideration the human aspects involved. He should not be persuaded by political influence to give a boy of 18 a job over a man with four of a family. It is not peculiar to the Minister's Department alone. The position in Donegal since I came into politics has been jobbery, jobbery, jobbery.

This is only the appointment of a postman and the Deputy is discussing what he calls "jobbery, jobbery, jobbery" in Donegal. The Deputy will have to confine himself to this particular incident and nothing else.

That is what I was doing.

The Chair does not think so.

I would appeal to the Minister to consider the facts I have put to him. I know he is an honest-to-goodness man and I would ask him to reconsider this position or to give another job to this man. Unless this man gets justice, the emigrant ship is starting him in the face, and like many of his friends in the village of St. Johnston, he will have to emigrate simply because he was not a supporter of the Fianna Fáil Party.

First, I should like to join with Deputy Harte in paying tribute to the Minister in his personal capacity for the courtesy he has extended, not only to Deputy Harte but to myself, in any personal approaches we have made to him. Here, however, we have a very serious charge laid against him as Minister, a charge which I think he will find difficulty in answering.

Not as difficult as the Deputy's own appointments the day before he left office.

The Minister's answer is that there is corruption on our part and corruption justifies corruption. If he can prove corruption on our part, he should have done it when we were in office.

The Deputy filled a nice job.

Here we have an ad hoc case. We find a vacancy for a postman——

The Deputy is not that innocent.

Would the Deputy mind the stones in Connemara? I am glad you have adopted the Connemara scheme described in Deputy Dillon's time as £300 an acre. Here we have a young man not 18 years of age applying for the job of postman. We have a married man with four of family—the sole support of a wife and four children—also applying for the post of postman. What happens? An interview is held and he gets the job.

That is not so.

But that does not satisfy the local Fianna Fáil cumann. He is notified he has got the job, that he should attend and he is asked for his birth certificate. The next thing that happens is that a Fianna Fáil Deputy gets on the job. A second interview is held, knowing that on the date of this interview, a young officer of a Fianna Fáil cumann will have reached the qualifying age of 18. The second interview is held and this official of the Fianna Fáil cumann is appointed postman down in the village of St. Johnston. Does it not stink of political corruption?

The Deputy should look at his own appointments.

The Minister holds his hands up in holy horror and says one wrong justifies another. Does one wrong justify another?

I am not saying anything of the kind.

I will have to call the Minister.

It is a pity he would not allow me to continue for a moment. I think there is political corruption into which this House should inquire and I am sorry that the Minister's Department is tinged with political corruption.

Whenever a minor post of this nature is to be filled in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—

On a point of order, does the Minister say that the appointment of a rural postman is a minor post?

That is not a point of order.

It is a point of order. I am entitled to put that point.

It is not a point of order. The Minister is entitled to speak.

The Minister did his best to waste my time and Deputy Harte's time.

Whenever a minor post of this nature has to be filled in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, it is filled by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and not by the local postmaster. The post at St. Johnston is a cycling post. It involves an attendance of just 28 hours per week. On 25th February, 1962, on the retiral on health grounds of the auxiliary postman——

On a point of order, is the Minister entitled to read this long reply?

I am entitled to read it.

Again, on a point of order, I think the Minister should give us his own reply and his own explanation.

The Deputy does not want to hear the reply.

If the Minister has an important statement to make, he is entitled to read. I take it this is an important statement.

The auxiliary postman had been on sick leave from 28th December, 1961, and a local person was then employed on the post from that date. He was taken on by the postmaster. He was not nominated by the employment exchange, but he was the only person available locally to perform the duty at the time.

The only applicant.

Would the Minister give the name of that person?

When notification of the auxiliary postman's retirement was received, the employment exchange was approached by the local postmaster, not by me.

On the Minister's instructions.

On a point of order, which interview is he talking about?

That is not a point of order.

On a point of information then.

The Deputy is not entitled to interrupt.

Two persons were nominated by the local employment exchange, one of whom was ineligible. The postmaster took on the second man on a purely temporary basis. That man was the man the Deputy is interested in, Mr. Carlin.

Was Mr. Carlin ineligible?

I said the other man was ineligible. As soon as Mr. Carlin was taken into the post by the local postmaster, there came into my office a stinging protest. Unfortunately I cannot read that here. I am precluded from doing so.

The Deputy who influenced the Minister in this case is not present here tonight to make his case.

Was it from the Fianna Fáil cumann?

It was not from the Fianna Fáil cumann. I am precluded from reading it because of its confidential nature.

On a point of order, is the Minister to attack a man who was appointed postman without giving us the source of his attack?

I am precluded from doing so because of its confidential nature. The posts in the area were under review——

May I ask a question?

The Deputy will allow the Minister to make his statement.

——and a decision was taken to defer the making of an appointment until the review was completed.

On a point of order.

What is the point of order? I will not allow the Deputy to interrupt in this fashion.

I want to ask the Minister which interview he is referring to.

The one in January, 1962.

I ask the Deputy to sit down. I will not allow Deputies to continue interrupting the Minister.

On a point of order, you, Sir, asked what is the point of order? The Minister has quoted a source which he refuses to disclose.

Deputy O'Donnell will not be allowed to get away in that fashion.

In the meantime, substitution work arose at St. Johnston in July, 1962. Three people were nominated by the employment exchange. Apparently they were not interested in the work and the local postmaster took on Mr. Joseph Peoples to do the work. He took him on on 23rd July, 1962. This employment ceased on 1st September, 1962. I then approached the employment exchange to fill this post. The post has been filled by the local postmaster on a purely temporary basis. I went to the labour exchange with a view to filling it on a permanent basis.

At the request of the Fianna Fáil cumann.

I went to the employment exchange, which is the normal thing to do.

At the request of the Fianna Fáil cumann.

Eleven people were nominated by the employment exchange——

And the Minister selected a single man.

——five of whom were eligible and interested. I do not get birth certificates.

And four were married.

And the Minister selected a single man.

Proposals for the filling of the vacancy were submitted to me on 1st October, 1962. I filled the post from the five persons whose names were sent forward to me by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I appointed Mr. Joseph Peoples. He took up duty on Monday, 12th November, 1962. I am precluded from giving the domestic circumstances that obtained in the families——

Other than those of the official of Fianna Fáil.

They are known to the people locally.

Fishermen's earnings during the fishing season in Donegal are not easy to determine.

Both of them fish.

I know that Joseph Peoples' family are not in the very best of circumstances.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22nd November, 1962.

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