Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Nov 1962

Vol. 198 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1963 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice including certain other services administered by that Office.

A disturbing feature of the crime report for 1961 is the large number of persons under 17 years of age charged with committing indictable offences who were convicted or against whom the charge was proved and who got the benefit of the Probation Act. The figure, 3,333, is the highest figure for any year since the foundation of the State. The problem of juvenile delinquency which we, of course, share with every other country, is a difficult and many-sided one and no country has so far come to any satisfactory conclusions as to how it can be eradicated. We have nothing like the problems that even our near neighbours have, but I think, and I have already expressed this opinion, that the problem is acute enough to warrant our tackling it as earnestly as possible and doing so now. now.

I was heartened to hear of the remarks of an eminent police officer from another country who attended a convention in Dublin of the International Federation of Police Officers in May last. Speaking of delinquency, he mentioned how lucky we in Ireland were to have problems of such small dimensions and within such narrow fields, a situation which he attributed to the stability of our home life and the strong religious atmosphere which appeared to him to be everywhere about. These remarks, encouraging as they are, do not mean that we can view our situation with complacency. On the contrary. As I have mentioned elsewhere, my Department is now entering into a fresh study of penal reform and I hope that on this occasion next year I shall be able to report definite progress.

The House will be already aware that in September I set up an inter-Departmental Committee to inquire into the present methods for the prevention of crime and the treatment of offenders and to recommend such changes in the law and practice as the Committee consider desirable and practicable. The matters to which the Committee will give particular attention are: juvenile delinquency; the probation system; and the institutional treatment of offenders and their after-care.

The Committee have, I am glad to report, got down to their job in commendable fashion; at present three sub-committees are engaged in the investigation of matters affecting the medical care, general education and employment-on-discharge of persons committed to prisons and institutions. It is not the Committee's intention to delay making recommendations until they are in a position to present a comprehensive report but rather to submit their proposals according as they reach their conclusions as to the particular steps which should be taken. In fact, I have already received from the Committee a number of recommendations involving changes in prison administration and procedure and having, in the main, as their aim the social rehabilitation of the offender. Some of the recommendations are already in course of implementation but others, which involve recruitment of personnel and structural alterations or require Departmental planning will naturally take some time to implement. Of course, these changes cannot be made without cost but I feel sure that when the time comes to look for the money I will have no difficulty in getting the full support of the House.

I do not propose now to go into the Committee's recommendations in detail but I would like to mention some of the major recommendations. One proposal calls for the intensification of treatment for offenders who are in need of psychiatric treatment and suggests the establishment in Mountjoy Prison Hospital of a special 20-bed unit for all adult prisoners requiring psychiatric hospitalisation. Allied to this proposal are recommendations for the training of special staff to deal with mentally disordered prisoners and the provision of occupational therapy. The establishment in Mountjoy of a corrective training centre which would cater for selected prisoners who through training and guidance could be fitted to take their place as normal members of society is also proposed. The prisoners selected for corrective training would be completely segregated from other prisoners.

The Committee have recommended strongly the appointment of two prison welfare officers. In the Committee's opinion, these appointments are essential, if the full aims of social rehabilitation are to be achieved. Another proposal also strongly recommended is that serious consideration should be given to the question of securing alternative premises for St. Patrick's Institution. It is the Committee's view that the essential facilities for providing worthwhile instruction in education, trades and physical training cannot be provided in the present premises.

I should like to emphasise that I have no intention of making changes for change's sake, but once I am convinced that new methods or intensification of old methods or changes of direction would lead towards an appreciable diminution of crime, or greater rehabilitation of offenders, I will not hesitate to take the necessary steps. I need hardly say also that I shall welcome any proposals that may be made to me by Deputies about any of these matters.

Turning to non-indictable or summary offences, we find that the biggest single factor in the total of over 104,000 persons who were prosecuted in 1961 was, as usual, the number of persons proceeded against under the highway code—77,834 or almost 75 per cent.—an increase of 9,201 over the figure for the previous year. The increase in the number of such prosecutions can be attributed in large measure to the ever increasing number of vehicles on the roads; 326,641 vehicles were registered at the end of 1961, as compared with 302,767 at the end of 1960. To some extent, too, of course, the increase in such prosecutions reflects the constant vigilance of the Garda in seeking to make the roads safe. But altogether too much of the time of the Garda has been taken up in the prosecution of trivial motoring offences and I am glad to say that a new system comes into operation shortly which permits a motorist who offends against the law in certain minor respects and who accepts his culpability, to pay a fine of 10/- in the local Garda station within a limited period. If he wishes, of course, he can go to court. I think that the new system will be welcome to the motoring public, to the police and to the courts.

I am appalled that there are so many people who are careless, if not actually reckless, in their driving habits. The number prosecuted for dangerous or careless driving, 3,772, was well up on the figures for previous years and no less than 651 persons were prosecuted in 1961, for driving while drunk, as compared with 535 in 1960, and 479 in 1959.

Before leaving the Garda Vote, I think I should mention as I announced some time ago that I have become persuaded, on looking at the police reports and by the many representations made to my Department in recent years, that something must be done to control airguns firing leaden pellets. The modern airgun is so powerful and so dangerous in the hands of young boys that its unrestricted use should not, in my opinino, continue to be permitted and I intend to introduce an appropriate amendment of the Firearms Act as soon as possible.

Vote No. 25 is the Vote for prisons. The Estimate, at £283,240, is £40,310 more than last year's. The bulk of the increase is in respect of increases in pay agreed to at Conciliation Council and the allocation of 28 extra prison officers—of whom eight were recruited during the past year. The main reason for this increase in staff, is that, in accordance with an agreement at conciliation proceedings, the working fortnight for prison officers has been reduced from 96 to 90 hours.

Extensive alterations and improvements to the officers' quarters are planned and I think I can say that the staff in the prisons service are reasonably contented and are doing their jobs conscientiously. I have visited the prisons and St. Patrick's Institution and have seen for myself how well the prisons are run. But Deputies do not have to take my word alone for that: all they need do is to ask for permission to come and look for themselves —I will welcome their interest. Alternatively, they can read the very worthwhile reports of the visiting committees which are published in the Annual Report on Prisons, copies of which are placed in the Library each year. On one or two occasions during the year, complaints were made that the food was bad or that the prison discipline might be too severe, but on direct inquiry by the supervising staff in my Department and on reference to the visiting committee of the prison concerned, each complaint was proved to be groundless.

Prison is not, and is not intended to be, a home from home and a prison will always be a place of punishment, but it seems to me that our prisons nowadays must to an increasing extent become places of rehabilitation as well. In so far as rehabilitation may save a person from the misery and degradation associated with a life of crime, it is entirely justifiable on humanitarian grounds alone. In addition, however, it can be regarded as something which brings a positive benefit to the community as a whole. It can mean the difference between a former prisoner continuing as a burden on the community or becoming a useful member of society.

All connected with the prisons service — particular members of my office staff, the governors, the chaplains, medical officers, the prison officers and the visiting committees are concerned to do what they can for the rehabilitation of prisoners. And in that connection I must make special reference to the Guild of St. Philip, a section of the St. Vincent de Paul Society which is devoted to the after-care of prisoners, with particular reference to young and first offenders. There are over 700 branches of the society throughout the country which enables the guild to hold out a helping hand, no matter where a discharged prisoner goes. During the year, the guild gave over 800 interviews to prisoners and ex-prisoners with a view to their after-care and disbursed the full £1,000 grant which they got from the State.

I, myself, am of the opinion that, more than any other single element, the provision of suitable, permanent employment on discharge is the greatest safeguard against a relapse into crime and I should like to make a special appeal to all employers to do what they can when approached in this regard.

The enactment of the Criminal Justice Act, 1960 was a most useful piece of legislation in the field of penal reform. It enables the courts to commit young offenders direct to St. Patrick's Institution instead of to prison, and to remand them there whilst awaiting the trial of their cases. It also enables the Minister to approve of remand institutions for boys and girls, with the result that homeless girls, charged with offences, can now be sent to a convent instead of to prison whilst the cases are awaiting hearing. One of the main provisions enables the Minister to grant temporary release to persons under sentence or to criminal lunatics who, in the opinion of those in charge of them, are not dangerous to themselves or others.

I find that the exercise of my powers in this respect does a great deal of good. It has never been abused. It is invariably praised by the visiting committees, chaplains and governors of prisons and the medical superintendents of mental hospitals. During the year under review, the power was exercised in respect of 27 prisoners and 30 mental patients. So far, I have been feeling my way but I have received so many encouraging reports as to the good effect on the morale of prisoners and patients of being given periods of temporary release for special purposes that I contemplate a more extended exercise of my powers in this regard.

As I have already mentioned elsewhere, I have in mind to examine closely the whole field of penal reform. I am aware, in a very general way, of the efforts at penal reform that are going on in Britain, in Denmark, in France and in other countries. This year and last year, I attended conferences of European Ministers of Justice and I was impressed with the evident anxiety on all sides to establish a code of prisoners' rights and to find better methods of dealing with juvenile delinquency. It is a problem of worldwide dimensions, in the solution of which, I hope, this country can play a part. When I attended these conferences, it was brought home vividly to me, how small the incidence of crime is here in Ireland, both relatively and absolutely. I was able to point out last year that the daily average number of male offenders over 16 years of age in custody was only 44 per 100,000, the figures for female offenders was only one per 100,000 and that the total number of offenders in custody was less than 500 at any one time.

To go back for a moment to the figures in the Volume of Estimates, I would refer to the provision of £4,200, an increase of £3,600, in Subhead L of Vote 25 which is necessitated by a recent amendment of the prison regulations in regard to the payment of gratuities to prisoners who are well conducted and industrious. The new arrangement increases the gratuity from a penny a day to 3/6d. a week. Half the money may be spent on cigarettes, sweets and the like and half is put to the prisoner's credit for his use on discharge.

I would mention, also, that before leaving office as Minister for Justice, Mr. Traynor's last official public act— on 8th October—was assisting the President, in the presence of next-of-kin, the Taoiseach, the Lord Mayor of Dublin and other public representatives, at the unveiling of a memorial to the patriot dead interred in Mountjoy Prison. The cost of the memorial, which is in the form of a 12-foot granite cross on a prepared base, is borne on the Prisons Vote and the smallness of the expenditure was made possible by the voluntary, unpaid work of members of the prison staff and of the Office of Public Works. It is my intention that the memorial may be visited on the first Sunday in November in each year. I would ask all concerned to make arrangements for their commemoration visits on that one day.

The total number of persons committed during the year 1961, whether on remand, for trial or under sentence, was 2,469—2,208 males and 261 females. The daily average in prison was 447—as against 461 in 1960— which was inclusive of an average of 116 juveniles in St. Patrick's Institution. I am glad to say that the reports of the prison visiting committees make very encouraging reading. In particular, the report of the visiting committee of St. Patrick's gives a great wealth of detail in relation to the way the boys are treated in the institution and about their after-care. The 1961 Annual Report on Prisons has recently been published. But, mutatis mutandis, the report contains the same kind of encouraging views from the visiting committees as were published in the report for the previous year.

The next Estimate, No. 26, is that for the Courts of Justice and, at £412,660, is £50,390 more than last year's. The increase is due almost entirely to the cost of grade awards and the "eighth round" increases. There has been little change in the staff of the courts: the number of district court clerkships has been reduced slightly by the amalgamation of certain posts according as vacancies occur. Provision has been made in Subhead A for allowances to members and officers of the Special Criminal Court, £3,145, and in Subhead B for the travelling expenses of members of that Court, £1,180—provision was made for these items in previous years in the Estimate for the Department of Defence. As the Court is no longer in operation, expenditure in connection with it will be less than the sum provided.

The Courts of Justice and Court Officers (Superannuation) Act, 1961 provides, in relation to members of the judiciary and certain court officers, that, in return for a reduction in the amount of pension, a death gratuity after five years' service or a lump sum on retirement will be payable. Persons serving at the time of the coming into force of the Act were given the option of retaining their existing rights. Provision was also made allowing of the surrender, at the time of retirement, subject to certain conditions, of portion of the pension payable in order to secure a pension for a wife or for one nominated dependant. These provisions are in the general lines of other superannuation schemes and were formulated so that they will involve no greater burden on the Exchequer than the previous system.

Provision has been made for the increase of the remuneration of members of the judiciary by the Courts (Supplemental Provisions) (Amendment) Act, 1962, by amounts corresponding to those already awarded to the Civil Service. The salaries are, of course, payable from the Central Fund.

With the publication in August of the new Rules of the Superior Courts, a task which has gone on, with interruptions, for some 25 years, has now been completed. The Rules Committee have gone to a great deal of trouble and expenditure of time in the past 12 months in bringing the Rules up-to-date. We are indebted to them.

During the year, three distinct sets of District Court Rules were made by the District Court Rules Committee. The District Court Rules (No. 1) 1961, provided for the revision of the practice and procedure of the district court in relation to the service of summonses and the service of documents outside the jurisdiction of the State. They also have provisions in relation to the issue of notice to defendants in regard to fines. The District Court Rules (No. 2) 1961, revoked the existing Rules relating to affiliation, maintenance and enforcement of court orders and made new provisions in regard to these matters. The District Court (Gaming and Lotteries Act) Rules (No. 3) 1961, provide for the regulation of the practice and procedure of the court for the purposes of the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1960. I am aware that the Rules Committee have also been working on a costs and fees order. I should like to express my thanks to the Committee for the very excellent work done by them during the past year.

When promoting the Courts Establishment and Constitution Act last year, my predecessor mentioned— Vol. 187, Col. 1062 — in connection with the provisions for the appointment of a President of the District Court that he would be charged with the duty of ensuring the prompt and efficient discharge of the business of the court. One of the matters mentioned then was the necessity for securing as far as practicable general uniformity of practice and procedure in the administration of justice and the standards to be adopted in fixing the amount of penalties. The Act authorities the President to convene meetings of justices periodically to discuss matters of this kind. My predecessor made it perfectly clear that there was no question of interfering with the freedom of any individual justice to award the penalty he might think appropriate in a particular case but the intention was that the individual justice could benefit in a general way by discussion with his judicial colleagues as to what would be the appropriate penalties in hypothetical circumstances. In that way a general level of uniformity of penalties would be brought about.

I was sorry to learn that the question of uniformity of penalties did not come up for discussion when the justices convened last December. My experience, meanwhile, goes to show that there is a very real need for such a discussion as there is a wide disparity between the penalties imposed by some justices and the penalties imposed by the great bulk of their colleagues in relation to particular charges. In particular, I would refer to the disparity of penalties on convictions of minor charges under the Road Traffic Act—offences such as illegal parking or failing to stop at a stop sign, etc.— which carry a monetary maximum penalty of a few pounds. I am referring now to cases not having any aggravating circumstances. One or two justices have been wont, in trivial cases, to disqualify the person concerned, for driving, for periods of weeks or a couple of months. Such penalties are never imposed by the very great majority of justices. It seems to me that they are disproportionate in their severity, threatening, in some instances, the loss of a defendant's livelihood and I have acceded to petitions for the restoration of licences in a number of such cases.

On the other hand, we have all, I am sure, been surprised from time to time to read of cases in which confirmed blackguards are treated with what seems to the outsider to be excessive leniency. I do think, therefore, that there is a very real need for the justices to take steps amongst themselves to bring about uniformity or near-uniformity of penalties. I understand that magistrates in other countries meet from time to time for such purposes and I can see every reason why the 35 justices in this country should come together occasionally for objective discussions as to their judicial functions. I do not think that any person with an understanding of the practicalities of the situation could see objection to such a discussion, and I do not think that the judicial discretion of individual justices could possibly be impaired.

I am glad to say that the reorganisation of the district court has worked excellently since 1st April, 1961. Although the number of justices was reduced to eight metropolitan justices, 23 provincial justices and four movable justices, there has been no need to appoint temporary justices. Emphasis has been and will continue to be placed on the prompt discharge of district court work and on the elimination of delays.

Vote No. 27 is the Estimate for the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds. At £143,960, the Estimate is £19,140 greater than last year's and again the rise is due almost entirely to salary increases. Both offices continue to cope with a considerable volume of work. While there have been complaints of delays in the Land Registry, I can assure the House that my Department have taken steps to eliminate these delays as far as possible. Arrangements have been made for a bonus incentive scheme which, it is confidently estimated, will increase the staff output by 30 per cent. and it is hoped that all arrears in the Land Registry will have been cleared off by next January. The scheme envisages that in each month arrears of dealings will be reduced by 275; copy maps by 150; searches by 60; Labourers Act cases by 940; and Land Commission cases by 125. According as the staff clear the arrears in one sector, they will go to others.

During the year, the central office and the counter space have been enlarged and these improvements should facilitate the public in their dealings. Arrangements have been made, furthermore, for a fairly substantial extension of the building, costing several thousands of pounds, for the proper storage of records.

I do not propose to make more than a simple mention of the fact that a Registration of Title Bill has been drafted and should be ready for introduction in the next Dáil session. It will be a comprehensive measure, running into a great many sections and it will I am sure be carefully examined and fully debated by the many Deputies interested in this field when it comes before the House.

The final Vote for which I am responsible, No. 28, is the Estimate for the Offices of Charitable Donations and Bequests. The net Estimate, £7,730, is £560 more than the Original Estimate for last year and the Supplementary Estimate of £400 and it is due to general increase in remuneration. There is no change in the staff structure. I have already mentioned that the law in relation to charities has been amended and consolidated by the Charities Act, 1961, which introduced several substantial improvements and I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the Commissioners for their advice and assistance in the preparation of that Bill and for the invaluable skilled service they give to the community in charity matters.

In conclusion, may I express my sincere thanks to all those members of voluntary committees and boards for which I have parliamentary responsibility, both present members and those who have retired during the past year? I should like to place on record how appreciative I am of the conscientious and able manner in which all concerned have carried out their tasks.

I think all Deputies will be glad to join with the Minister in wishing his predecessor in office, Mr. Oscar Traynor, many years of happiness in his retirement. It is no exaggeration to say that Deputies from all sides of the House found the former Minister for Justice a very easy man to deal with. They found him to be a person who was prepared to listen to their views and to deal with the various points raised by Deputies in discussions such as this. If I have any advice to give to the present Minister, it is that he would do well to follow the example of his predecessor.

When the Minister was referring to retirements, I felt rather sorry he did not advert to another retirement which took place during the year, that of the former Governor of Mountjoy Prison, Mr. Seán Kavanagh, who had been in the prison service for very many years and gave very distinguished service to this country in that capacity and who earlier, before he entered the prison service, also gave excellent service. I hasten to repair what I feel sure was an inadvertent omission by the Minister because I believe the former Governor of Mountjoy Prison was a person who did very great service in establishing the pattern, or portion of it, at any rate, of the administration of justice in this country. Therefore I should like to wish him, also, many years of happiness and prosperity in his retirement.

While it may be small in some respects, the Minister's Department is a large one from the point of view of the field it covers, and indeed, judging from the Minister's remarks, he will make every effort to see it is no longer a small Department, particularly numerically. When listening to him, I could not help recalling the very vigorous election campaign carried on some years ago by members of the Minister's Party who on that occasion appeared to be determined to reduce the numbers in the Civil Service. I wonder if that policy has been jettisoned elsewhere than in the Minister's Department.

There are a few general matters and a number of particular points I wish to refer to in relation to this Estimate. The fact that Estimates, even though this is only a token sum to enable discussion to take place, have to be introduced here and that such a wealth of detail of one sort or another was given by the Minister in his statement, shows it is well worth while that Ministers should have to come to the Dáil with their Estimates year after year and give an account of their stewardship.

The Minister referred to a reorganisation in the district court and to the fact that now we have the district court pattern following on very much the same lines as that of the other courts where there is a president and a number of other judges.

I am not quite sure that the matter to which I want to refer now very briefly is under the direct authority of the Minister or whether it is one of the functions that have been transferred from him to the holder of the office of President of the District Court. It is the question of the allocation of district justices to different posts and different work. I do not want to be misunderstood in this and I do not want in any way to be recorded as personally criticising the present holder of the office of President of the District Court, a very eminent lawyer, but I do feel it is a pity that during the course of the year, it was necessary for a district justice of very long standing on the district court bench to announce publicly that he was being transferred from one office to another without his consent and, unless I am mistaken, also without consultation. I may be mistaken in that. It was reported in the Irish Independent of 28th April last. According to that report, the justice said:

I have been a district justice for 38 years and have been in four districts. I was transferred on three previous occasions with my full will and consent. On this occasion, no.

Later, the report quotes him as saying:

I was transferred on the three previous occasions with my full will and consent. On the other three occasions, the transfers were in the hands of the Minister for Justice and I was never transferred against my will until now. You might think that I wanted to get away from you but that is not so, and that is why I mention this matter. I was quite happy here and I like being with you.

He went on in this statement to say, according to this report, that:

he was being transferred to the Children's Court in Dublin Castle and before his departure he would like to express to the solicitors' profession, the members of the Bar who had appeared in his court, the court staff, the probation officers and the Gardaí, his appreciation for the courtesy and help they had given him during his time there.

"As to myself, I am going to the Children's Court and I did not apply to be sent there. I am being replaced by Justice Ó Riain and he did not apply and did not want to leave the Children's Court."

I recognise that once the House has set up machinery and given authority for these kinds of moves to be made, the authority is there and a person charged with the responsibility of that high office must act as he sees fit but I do think it is a matter which must be kept under review by the Minister, particularly in relation to the Children's Court.

The Minister referred, with justifiable alarm, I think, to the increase in juvenile crime. I think I am correct in saying that the former incumbent of the bench in the Children's Court was a man who had spent a considerable number of years in that court. He was a man who had experience in dealing with the particular type of problem which is met in the Children's Court. I think I am correct in saying that he was abroad to study methods in other countries. The point I want to make is that it is a court which requires a special type of knowledge and a special type of experience. It does not seem on the face of it to be good enough that a change should be made, without the consent of the person who sat on the bench and that in his place should be sent another district justice, who, again, did not consent to the change. The fact that such statements were made publicly in court in relation to this matter does not help from the point of view of the harmony which one would like to see in connection with the district court bench. I do not propose to say anything more on that topic. I suggest that the Minister, even though he may not now have the authority, should keep the matter under review.

During the course of the year, I asked the Minister a question dealing with the compulsory oral Irish test for promotion in the Garda Síochána. At that time, the matter was under consideration by the Minister. I understand that representations were made to him by the Garda Representative Body. I should be glad to know from the Minister if that has since been solved. The position was that the order was retrospective in relation to those who joined the Force since 1943. Very briefly, the case against it was that it was worsening the conditions of some——

It has been fixed.

It has been fixed? I am very glad to hear it. I should like to ask the Minister also what is the present position with regard to Garda pay. The Minister referred to the fact that claims were received, I think, as recently as last month or the month before. There have been a number of applications, I think, on behalf of the Garda over the past few years. I have no doubt that the Minister is likely to remember the difficult position which obtained some time ago.

As recently as September last, an article appeared in one of the Sunday papers from an ex-chief superintendent who was not very long out of the Force. He had some very hard remarks to make with regard to conditions in the Garda and I should like to hear the Minister further with regard to them. This article, which appeared in the Sunday Review of 9th September, was written by a retired chief superintendent who, up to a few months before, had been attached to the Dublin Metropolitan Division. He is quoted in this article as saying:

At present a guard cannot afford to get married. He cannot even afford to fall in love—unless he falls in love with money!

The system, whereby the men must pay for their station keep—whether they avail of it or not—is scandalous. By the time their laundry subscription, their income tax and their mess and attendance payments are taken from their wage packets, they take home labourers' wages.

The young gardaí would not be blamed if they packed up and went to England, where the authorities are crying out for our stalwart young men.

Since 1954, when I was given the task of administering the Dublin area, I sent in appeal after appeal to the Department to remedy conditions, but they were all ignored.

For years the Gardaí at the Bridewell and Green Street had to sleep in worse conditions than their own prisoners. That has been partially remedied.

It is certainly disturbing to the public that a chief superintendent, a few months after his retirement, feels it necessary to make that kind of criticism of the pay and the conditions in the Force. I should like to know from the Minister what steps are being taken to remedy the complaints that have been made. I do know that in some of the stations in Dublin—I think the Bridewell is one of them—improvements have been made in the conditions.

I should like to know also from the Minister whether any dissatisfaction has been expressed to him with regard to the new regulations made governing the representation on the Representative Body or Bodies of the Garda. I understand the position now is that there are three different bodies. There is a body catering for the officers, another catering for NCOs and a third catering for the guards. Certainly, from the publicity which appeared in the newspapers, it would seem that the Minister has not, in fact, hit on the right solution to the problem. I do not know whether the types of letters and articles that have appeared in the papers since the new system was adopted are representative or whether they are the views of an occasional crank. I should like the Minister to tell the House quite frankly whether on the information which he has had as Minister, the new system is one which appears to be working satisfactorily and with the goodwill of the members of the Garda.

During the course of the year, I drew the attention of the Minister, by way of Parliamentary Question, to the condition of index books in the Bankruptcy Office in the Four Courts. I am glad that matter has been remedied. I do not know whether the Minister or other Deputies are aware of the importance of these books from the point of view not merely of the legal practitioner but of the public. It is necessary, on virtually every occasion on which a person purchases a house, to make a search to ascertain whether the person purporting to sell is entitled to do so or whether that person is under the jurisdiction of the Bankruptcy Courts, in which event, his assets would be vested in the Official Assignee.

Up to the point last year—whether it was a coincidence, I do not know— when I put down my Question to the Minister, the books in the Bankruptcy Office were in a scandalous condition. It is no exaggeration to say that you could not make out some of the letters on the index. Solicitors would have been in a most unfortunate position if, through no fault of their own but simply due to the dilapidated state of these books, they slipped up and gave an incorrect return of their search.

I am simply referring to the matter because it is one of importance. It is a situation which should not have been allowed to occur. It has been remedied now and I hope it will not be necessary to refer to it in the future. If, through the very considerable use which is made of these books, they get into the same dilapidated condition, I trust that, on the first representation which is made to the Minister, he will have the matter remedied.

The Minister dealt with censorship. I want to refer very briefly to a matter which has been raised here on a number of occasions, namely, the possibility of introducing some system of grading for films. I recognise that there may be a number of difficulties attached to it. I understood, from a discussion which took place here some years ago, that this matter was being examined by the Department. I should like the Minister to tell us what progress has been made in that examination. I know there are difficulties. There are pros and cons in introducing any system which would provide for the grading of films. However, it is a matter which should actively be examined by the Minister.

The Minister referred to general law reform. Those of us who speak from these benches are very glad to see the law reform programme going forward. Steps in that direction were initiated by the inter-Party Government. I am glad the Minister has advanced that position. It is certainly worth his while to consider some kind of standing advisory committee to deal with law reform. I do not mean a committee merely of the Minister's Department but a committee which should have amongst its members officials of the Minister's Department, officials of the Office of the Attorney General and some legal practitioners. There should be some such committee, which would remain in continual existence, to advise the Minister and the Minister's Department on questions of law reform. It is particularly important that practising members of the legal proffession should be represented and that their views should be presented to the Minister.

I come now to the question of what compensation, if any, is available for members of the public who may incur injury when they go to the assistance of the Garda Síochána. I raised this matter some years ago. I think I am correct in saying that the unfortunate position is that there is no fund out of which compensation is available to such persons. The Minister should consider the matter so that people who may unfortunately incur bodily harm or other loss when acting out of civic spirit in that way may be able to turn to some fund for compensation.

I join with the Minister in welcoming the fact that the Border outrages appear to have stopped. I join with him also in expressing the hope that that state of affairs will continue. I am sorry he did not deal with another matter which has been exercising the minds of a number of people recently, a matter which was publicised in the papers and which was publicised at the Árd Fheis of the Minister's Party. I refer to communist activities in this country, in this city in particular, in relation to the youth of the country.

There was a report in the Evening Herald of 15th November, 1962, of a speech by the vice-president of the Saint John Bosco Society who stated that, during the summer, 120 boys from a Dublin area were taken to a holiday camp in the Six Counties by Irish communists. He mentioned also that three Irish communists attended a communist conference this year at which they were told to change their recruiting methods and were advised not to appear anti-clerical. This matter was referred to later by a speaker at the Árd Fheis of the Minister's Party. I do not want for a moment to be taken in any way as advocating witch-hunting or anything of that sort.

Or accepting as gospel everything that is said at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis.

Oh, certainly not. However, I think the speaker at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis was relying on the report which appeared in the Evening Herald and which I would take to be reliable. I do not want to advocate that the Minister or the authorities under him should indulge in any kind of witch-hunting. I do not think that would be in any way helpful. However, a number of people in this country are seriously alarmed by the reports which appeared: the Minister will appreciate that. He will appreciate also the fact that, from the experience which nearly any adult has nowadays of the manner in which communists work, no country, even this country, can afford to be complacent about reported activities of this sort. It might not be fair to press the Minister for a statement on the steps he or the Garda authorities are taking in the matter, but I think it right to refer to it and to give him an opportunity of giving the House and, through the House, the country, an assurance that there is no complacency on his part or on the part of the Garda authorities in this connection.

That is all I have to say with regard to this Vote. There were a few other points, which I think would need legislation to deal with, if I were to urge them, and I understand that is not permitted in this discussion.

I should like to join with the Minister and the previous speaker in wishing the former Minister, Mr. Traynor, many years of happiness in his retirement. I endorse the comments made by previous speakers in regard to the manner in which he discharged his duties.

I was pleased to learn from the Minister's speech that he is concerned with a matter I have referred to many times, that is, the lack of uniformity in the penalties imposed by the courts. I am pleased that the Minister is dealing with this matter in as forcible a manner as he can and that he is perturbed by the disparity in sentences for similar offences obtaining in different parts of the country. I agree entirely with the view he expressed that there should be a meeting of the justices and that some effort should be made to have uniformity of sentence for similar crimes. It is well known that a particular justice may leave you off with a small fine for a particular offence, whereas you may be in danger of a prison sentence from another justice in another part of the country for the same offence. That should not happen. I am sure that, when the Minister has interested himself in this matter and when the meeting referred to has taken place, we will have more uniformity in the punishment meted out for offences.

The Minister, as a young man starting out on an important career and in charge of an important Department of State, could also interest himself in recommending changes in the system of appointment of members of the judiciary. Since the State was established, irrespective of what Government were in power, there has been a particular system. The main qualification for appointment has been a political qualification.

I am afraid that matter does not arise on the Estimate. The appointment of the judiciary is contained in an Article of the Constitution and the Minister has no responsibility.

With due respect to your ruling, Sir, the Minister has the same amount of responsibility in regard to commenting on the appointment of the judiciary——

I have informed the Deputy, and if the Deputy does not like the ruling, he can resume his seat.

That is a sore point. If the Standing Orders were rigidly enforced, statements made by the Minister in his opening statement concerning lack of uniformity of punishment by district justices should not be allowed.

Since the Minister referred to it, I allowed the Deputy to comment on it.

If Standing Orders were strictly enforced, the Minister was not in order in referring to it. The Minister has no function at all in that matter. The judiciary are an independent body, and it is within the rights of each justice to impose penalties within the regulations as he sees fit himself. The Minister has no right to order them, or even to order such a conference as has been mentioned. If Standing Orders were strictly enforced, he would have no right to refer to it in this House.

The Minister's statement was quite in order.

Another matter I referred to here previously is the procedure in the courts. It was also referred to by other Deputies, and Deputy Breen, in particular, was very strong on the point. I refer to the wearing of wigs and gowns by counsel appearing in the courts. This is handed down to us from the British authorities who used such symbols. I believe they serve no purpose and that it is time to enact legislation for their removal. In the United States and a number of other countries, lawyers have not to wear either wigs or gowns, and I am sure justice is meted out there just as well as it is here. I hope the Minister will address himself to this question, because I think the wearing of these wigs and gowns has an unnerving effect on people who rarely attend the courts except to appear as a witness in isolated cases. I cannot see any justification for the requirement of wearing wigs and gowns in the higher courts and the Minister should do away with the system. I shall close on it now because I think something will come from the Chair very soon.

Another matter I should like to refer to concerns the system we have for dealing with the moneys of wards of court, mentally defective people or people who cannot look after their own affairs. My comments are mainly based on a case which came to my notice three years ago, a relatively small case which has not yet been determined. If that is the system under which the moneys of wards of court are looked after here, this House should address itself to the question and do so very forcibly.

This was a rather straightforward case. The man concerned was a patient in a mental hospital for an extended period. He had a very small estate at the time of his death which was under the jurisdiction of the solicitor for wards of court. The estate was less than £30 and less than the cost of the burial expenses. When the man died his relatives endeavoured to get payment of this sum. They did not make very much headway and, amongst others, they solicited my help. I had several discussions with the people concerned in the Four Courts and in the solicitor's office. They were all agreed that the estate was in existence but there were some legal formalities to be dealt with and consequently payment of the £20 odd burial expenses could not be made.

In February, 1961, after 12 months, or so, of negotiation I got an assurance that payment would be in order and the money would be forthcoming shortly. Subsequently, I was told something was missing between the Four Courts and the solicitor's office and payment could not be made. After a number of months had passed, I sought the Minister's help. I put the case in the Minister's hands. I have no doubt he gave it the greatest attention. I have received in all four letters from him; but payment cannot be made. The Minister informed me, I have no doubt truthfully, that he has no function in the matter and the best he can do is to speak to these people and ask them to try to do something so that this £20 odd will be paid to the relatives.

It is mandatory for a person who is of unsound mind and deemed unable to look after his affairs to have some State office to look after his affairs for him. That office should discharge its functions differently from the manner in which it appears to discharge them at the moment. I am speaking now of the section in the Four Courts which deals with wards of court. In fairness to the solicitor, it should be said that he told me he had completed his side of the job, and there was nothing more for him to do. He told me, and he was probably correct in this, that he did give the case personal attention and it was cleared by him in May, 1961; there was nothing further that could be done except to address my remarks to the office in the Four Courts; there seemed to be no justifiable reason for withholding payment any longer.

The solicitor for wards of court is appointed to look after the affairs of people who are not capable of looking after their affairs themselves. Surely there should be no difficulty in the solicitor paying over burial expenses without delay and any residue left in the estate? If my case is typical, then all I can say is that I am surprised at the difficulties confronting people in getting payment of moneys entrusted to this section. I think power should be vested in the responsible Minister to ensure that all such transactions will be dealt with in a businesslike way. I will not go beyond that. I am hopeful the Minister will take that power.

The Minister referred to crime statistics. We were all rather shocked to learn of the increase in juvenile delinquency. The number of convictions in 1961 was 3,333 the highest figure since the foundation of the State. This is a serious problem in a small country which, with few exceptions, has a sparsely scattered population throughout the country. I have no doubt that everybody concerned— religious, the judiciary, the courts, the Minister's Department and the Garda Síochána—are making the utmost endeavours to wipe out juvenile delinquency altogether. It would appear that their efforts are not meeting with the success they deserve.

Here, I must pay tribute to the reformatories and industrial schools. I have known a few boys convicted of crimes and committed to such schools. I have met them subsequently and I now bear witness to the fact that they got an excellent training in these schools. They had obviously benefited greatly by the education and training they got. I think we can take it that those who go through these schools subsequently lead excellent lives. That being the case, there should be sufficient accommodation to enable all who require training in such schools to get the benefit of it. Possibly it would be a good idea to send youthful offenders to these schools early on rather than allow them to return home, with a warning, possibly to err again. We all like to be as merciful as possible but juvenile delinquents must, I think, be dealt with more sternly now than they have been in the past. Committal to schools would possibly be the best method of reducing the number of criminals. Youths stand to gain by schooling and training in these centres. I know from experience that they are different people when they leave them.

The Minister gave an exceptionally high figure for non-indictable offences, 104,000 in all. He states that 75 per cent. of the offences were against the highway code and taking into account the statement that we have over 326,000 vehicles in the country, an average of 23 per cent. of vehicle owners committed offences last year. The fact that 23 per cent. of the vehicle owners committed offences in a country where the volume of traffic is not too great is disturbing. Whilst I am firmly behind every move to enforce law and order, and enforce it impartially and strictly, I believe a number of these offences need never have been dealt with by the courts. Trivial offences such as parking, say, 19 inches from the footpath when a person is waiting for a few minutes of has gone into a shop for a message when it is difficult to park in a recognised parking centre, and other trivial offences of first offenders should be dealt with by a warning.

I want to make it clear that I am a firm believer in upholding the traffic regulations because I know the conditions that would obtain if there were laxity in this regard but a number of offences could be dealt with by way of warning. The Minister should repeat, as I am sure he will, the statement made by his predecessor, the then Deputy Traynor, to recruits leaving the Garda Depot that they should leave their pencils aside as much as possible. If they find an honest type of citizen, if I might use that phrase, who committed some small technical offence, then instead of bringing him before the court, they should give him a warning which I am sure would have the desired effect. I hope the Minister will have a further word about this matter with the responsible authorities because, as I say, there is no need in some instances for court proceedings.

The position in regard to drunken driving as outlined by the Minister is not very rosy. In 1959, we had 479 prosecutions; in 1960, we had 535; and in 1961, we had 551. We all appreciate the menace of drunken driving and it is deplorable that, despite the many warnings issued by people such as the Minister, members of the judiciary, senior officials of the police force and religious authorities, instead of decreasing, the number of offences is on the increase. Having regard to the unsatisfactory trend, I hope that in the course of the year the Minister will have some strong comments to make on suitable occasions and that he will again appeal to vehicle drivers to respect not only themselves and their own lives but the lives of others which are endangered when drunken drivers are let loose on the roadway. We all like a drink occasionally and I am not one of those people who are anxious to comment adversely on a person taking a few drinks but there is an obligation on all of us when driving to be very careful to ensure that we are in full command of our senses and that we are not incapacitated, through over-indulgence in alcohol.

I appeal to the Minister to address himself to this question. A number of people convicted of such an offence are well-meaning people and, in many instances, the most respectable people you could find. They do not mean to get drunk but possibly they may have been attending a wedding or they may have met a few friends in a public house whom they did not expect to meet and have taken two or three drinks over and above what they should. Irrespective of that, it is quite in order for the Minister to make it clear to all concerned that, no matter what the circumstances may be, people convicted of such offences cannot expect to be dealt with lightly.

Another matter to which the Minister referred is the control of airguns, and in this matter I am entirely in agreement with him. I do not see why young fellows should have airguns and endanger other people and possibly be the cause of depriving somebody of an eye. Young fellows who have airguns should be brought before the courts and punished. Another matter in this connection is that I cannot see the advantages of young fellows going around with knives in their belts. I do not know why we should allow youngsters to go around with these daggers. I have seen them even in the country districts, although some time ago it was mainly confined to the more populous centres. Now you find these airguns and jack-knives, or whatever you term them, in the rural parts of the country as well. The Minister will appreciate that if a difference of opinion should arise between young fellows, there is grave possibility that lives could be endangered. It should, therefore, be made an offence to carry these knives.

I can see the Minister's difficulty. The matter was referred to in the House on a previous occasion when members advocated punishment for carrying knives. On that occasion, the Minister instanced the case of a man carrying a penknife in his pocket for cutting tobacco and asked how could the law be administered then. I am sure commonsense could be used. There is a big difference between the man carrying a small penknife in his pocket for cutting tobacco and the person with a dagger attached to his belt. The difference can easily be seen.

Another matter to which the Minister's Department could address itself is the question of newspaper advertisements giving false description of goods on offer. People advertise goods or services and solicit support for them by false claims. There are advertisements by people who tell you they can make you taller, that they can make you stronger or younger. It is only a small number of foolish people who would accept such assertions but then again there are advertisements claiming wonderful cures through the use of certain medicines. There should be an obligation on the State to examine whether these medicines have the potentialities claimed for them in the advertisements. There are goods advertised for the cure of arthritis and other ailments and which may have no value. These goods or services are offered with a view to getting money from people who suffer from such ailments and who will try anything to obtain relief. They will pay 10/- or £1 and take the chance that it will cure them. There is good business in that field of activity. The State should examine all drugs and medicines on offer by public advertisement, in order to ascertain whether they are what they are supposed to be or whether it is some fraud in order to deceive gullible people and people not so gullible suffering from these ailments.

I should like to refer briefly to the statement by Deputy O'Higgins regarding an article by an ex-senior officer of the Garda Síochána relative to the conditions of the serving members. I believe that such a statement should not come from a person in his position. I read that statement and indeed there was very little of value in it because the Garda have a representative body elected now in a most democratic fashion to put forward any justifiable claims or grievances they may have.

I cannot see why a senior officer on retirement should make a charge which had no substance. Such a statement, if read in some places outside the State, would lead people to believe that all was not well with our police force. I hope the position will not arise here as it has arisen in other countries where ex-members of the police force, particularly senior officers, on their retirement, write articles for newspapers disclosing information they received in the course of their duties and bringing before the public mind cases past and gone with the years. I have no doubt that it will not happen here but if there is any trend in that direction, we should nip it in the bud.

I wish to refer to the promotion system for members of the Garda Síochána. I think it is the aim of the Minister and of the Commissioner to deal with all such matters on an impartial basis, to recognise merit where it exists and to promote the people they think are best fitted and most suitable for promotion. Complaints are bound to arise, however, because when a person applies for promotion and his application is turned down, he feels he is better than the other fellow who got it. We all do the same. I should like the Minister to make a detailed statement on this promotion system, so as to make it clear to the public that promotions within the Garda are not due to pull of any kind and that it is the endeavour and the wish of the Minister, the Commissioner and senior officers, to see that promotions are made fairly, that it is desired to promote only the most suitable and that there is nothing wrong in the system. If there is anything wrong in the system or if the Minister feels there is any justification for the complaints that are being made, he should inquire into the matter and remove the cause for complaint.

The Minister has far more information than I have on this matter. I recognise that a number of people may be disappointed because they were not promoted—possibly they did not deserve promotion—but the best way to deal with that, now that we have a large number of new members in the Force, is by the Minister making a statement making it clear to all such members that promotion is given to those who are most entitled to it.

I should like to congratulate the Minister. When he was appointed, it was said that he was appointed merely because he was the Taoiseach's son-in-law. However, he has proved his worth to me and, I am sure, to the House. Compliments have been paid to the former Minister. I agree with those compliments although I thought he was very peevish when it came to criticism. If you criticised his Department, he seemed to take it as a personal affront. The former Minister and I were in hot water a few times because I criticised his Department. Ministers should accept as well as give criticism. They should not be peevish or angry when criticism is offered.

About a week ago, a question was asked of the Minister as to why the costs of Corporation tenants in court cases had increased of late and his answer was that the usual cost was about 10/- but that there were costs of £4 or £5 in one case because of about 30 adjournments. I questioned the Minister and I said that it was not because of adjournments but that these were penal costs because they had been previously before the court. To prove my point, when tenants of a municipal authority are in court in relation to an order for possession, they are there by virtue of a section of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1851. The 1931 Housing Act contained a provision in Section 34 incorporating this arbitrary section of the 1851 Act.

It is the Summary Jurisdiction Act and right away it should convey to the Minister that justice is summary but there certainly is not very much summary action in a case in respect of which there are 30 or more adjournments. Actually, when that case comes before the court, it is opened and finished with very often in five minutes because the court has no power to refuse an order, no power to vary an order. In all cases of a civil landlord, the court can refuse an order or vary an order but municipal tenants are subject to the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1851 and, as a result, the local authority can say: "This man had a cat and therefore he broke the letting regulations." The court must give the order. Even though the court thinks it ridiculous, it has no option.

On one occasion recently, a new district justice did refuse an order but when the case next came to court, he did not refuse because it was brought home to him in the meantime that he had no power to refuse. There are no such things as 30 adjournments, or even two, except in the odd case where a district justice may err. What happens in regard to costs is that if a tenant has been in trouble before, that fact is taken into consideration and whether the alleged cost is 12/- or £25 has nothing to do with adjournments.

The objection to that practice is that a district justice has no power to refuse an order. In a number of cases, in fact, tenants owe no rent but according to the cleverly-worded letting regulations, tenants must pay on gale day. If gale day were Monday and the tenant does not pay until next morning, even though the rent was accepted and even though the tenant owes no money, the local authority can go to court and say that on gale day, which was such a date, this person did not pay the rent. On that alone, the justice must make the order. That is the law. I know it because I have studied it well. The cost or penalty simply indicates whether a person has been in trouble on previous occasions—even though that is finished and dealt with. It is not a matter of adjournments. That is the point on which I want to correct the Minister.

It is rather sad to think that at this day, half the citizens of Dublin have no protection in the courts. It is contrary to the whole spirit of the Constitution that a justice cannot refuse or cannot vary an order. If you owe one penny, the order will be given. If not, it will be given when the court next sits when it is brought home to the justice that he has no power. That is the position in regard to local authority tenants and I ask the Minister to study it.

I want to refer to self-service shops and super-markets. I understand the Garda are kept busy arresting people for pilfering goods from self-service stores. In my opinion, self-service stores encourage people to steal. I am one who believes, thinking perhaps a little differently from others, that we are not ail law-abiding deep down and that we behave ourselves simply because we are not tempted excessively or provoked too much, perhaps. Perhaps we do it through fear. In these shops, there are no supervisors and it seems to me an obvious case of temptation to poor people going about in them to do what they would otherwise never do. To ask people to behave as if they were saints is like asking them to keep the peace if there were no Gardaí on the streets. It is the very appearance of the Garda, as we are told, that keeps order. The uniform is the law; it is not the fact that the wearer is a Garda that gives authority or puts fear into people. With these shops displaying goods worth 5/- or more, is it not obvious that there will be pilfering?

A short time ago, I went into court to hear a case in which I was interested. I saw one very decent woman there. She was crying all the time. She had put a piece of meat into her bag in addition to the goods she declared. I saw another well-known person there. Deputies would be surprised to know who it was. That was a similar case. I believe the Garda are very much engaged in this type of job and I think the Minister should suggest to the President of the District Court that they should treat these offenders lightly and force the shops to provide supervision. It is no use saying people should not do these things. Only in tonight's paper, I read of 30 postmen in court because they were pretending they had been doing overtime. These men are not criminals. If they are, we are all criminals because you could not get 30 men in one establishment all criminals. The temptation was there. Probably somebody in authority told them: "I shall fix it; you give me half the proceeds." That goes to show that where there is too much temptation, any of us will fall. Something should be done to discourage stealing and pilfering at the super-markets that seemingly expect the Guards to keep their wagons busy bringing the defaulters back and forward.

Previously, on an Estimate, I referred to the Ban-Ghardaí and I was told off by the former Minister. They look well and we have their counterparts in every city in Europe but, in my opinion, they would give better service if they were in civvies half the time. I am in O'Connell Street often 20 times a day and I am tired of seeing children begging and "spunkers" annoying the public. Then one or two Ban-Ghardaí come along and the defaulters go around the corner and are back again annoying the people when the Ban-Ghardaí have passed. The young girls who are soliciting on the streets have eyes in their heads. If they see Ban-Ghardaí coming they go around the corner until they have passed.

The Ban-Ghardaí would give better service if they spent most of the time in civvies. Wholesale pilfering goes on around Christmas. If a person coming out of a shop with something under his coat sees a Garda on the left, he will turn right. If he sees a Garda or a Ban-Gharda on the right, he will turn left. If the Ban-Ghardaí were in civilian clothes, they would secure more convictions. I have not seen much about their getting convictions. I do not know if they do much more than just walk around. It may not be very gallant to criticise women but the public expect value for the expenditure. I think the Ban-Ghardaí should spend half their time in civvies watching out for "spunkers", pilferers and street-walkers. They will not succeed in uniform; it gives them away.

I shall now deal with the subject of prisons. During the Civil War, I was in jail as a political prisoner. Because I was on a commandeering job, I spent 12 months in the criminal part of the prison. Therefore, I have a little experience of mixing with persons of a criminal type. To a large extent, prisons are schools for crime. One prisoner tells another how successful he was as a criminal and what a fool the other was in not taking greater precautions, and what to do the next time. That sort of thing goes on all the time.

The Minister should segregate prisoners. First-timers, irrespective of age, should not be allowed to associate with habitual criminals, especially in the case of women, because many female prisoners are street-walkers. The Minister should know that, in his capacity as Minister for Justice. It is not right that that type of person should be allowed to associate with someone who made a mistake. One thing leads to the other. These people meet one another on the streets after they have served their sentences and things develop. It is wrong that people who made an error should have to associate with habitual criminals. We all make a mistake at times. Some people who are out would be in jail but for the fact that they were not caught. That is my opinion. Give people a chance. Keep prisoners segregated and hope that those who made an error will not make a second one. I am putting it to the Minister that prisoners should be segregated in that way. The Minister should endeavour to have one person per cell.

We never have any more.

Perhaps I am thinking of the past. I know there is a good deal of homosexual crime on the continent. Crowding encourages that sort of thing. I am glad that the Minister is to consider the association between crime and health and that something will be done about it. The Minister should consider homosexuality as a case for treatment rather than punishment. Edmund Burke, the great orator, once tried to make the case that the law should not be so savage on homosexuals. He was hounded for putting up that sort of defence and the suggestion was even made that he must have been interested in the matter himself. That happens when people try to make others understand that certain crimes are not deliberate but are the result of mental unbalance. The Minister realises that, judging by his reference to the fact that psychiatric treatment will be available for certain types of persons.

The Minister referred to the annual Kevin Barry commemoration in Mountjoy. I was present at the last commemoration ceremony. The Press were greatly annoyed that they were not allowed in. I do not know whether that is because of regulations. The Press were outside, taking pictures, but were not allowed inside. They thought they should have been allowed inside and I think it would be no harm.

It is a question of security.

Do not say the Press are dangerous.

I mean photographs of buildings and so on might affect security.

The Press would have taken photographs, perhaps, of the new Cross. The public have a right to see that.

We will see if we can facilitate them next year.

I do not think the Press would be in any way dangerous. I do not think they would go in there to show means of escape.

People have come to me from time to time with bills from solicitors. I feel that solicitors overcharge people. Certain classes of people who are afraid of the law will pay these costs rather than challenge them. I know of a person who had a bill for legal costs amounting to £20 and who disputed the amount.

Has the Minister power to interfere in that case?

The Minister referred to legal reform. Deputy O'Higgins also made reference to such reform. Perhaps I might make a suggestion on the same lines.

The Minister has a committee actually sitting. One of its duties is to see if costs can be reduced.

The point I want to bring home is that people who have no defending counsel do not know the procedure in regard to costs. They do not know that costs can be challenged. I know that solicitors overcharge. I had experience once of getting a demand for £40. I went about it and had the bill reduced to £12. Many people do not know how to go about it. People ought to know how to deal with these matters. I understand that the referee will not hear a costs appeal, unless the appellant is represented by a solicitor. In one case that I know of, a woman who was disputing a solicitor's bill of costs could not get any other solicitor to take up her case. The poor woman was nearly demented.

I suggest to the Minister that a member of the public should know what to do when he gets a bill of costs and should be able to go about it himself if he does not wish to obtain legal advice. Some solicitors are all right but there are many sharks among the profession. A long time ago, I represented a group of people. Dancing in Lent was banned. I was in the dance game at the time and represented a society of dance hall proprietors. The cost in the district court was only £1. I got a bill for £20. I inquired about it and was told that there were 20 persons in the society and they were being charged £1 each. I, as one person, represented the society. That is the way they go about things.

The only remaining matter to which I want to direct the Minister's attention is the question of books and films. Since the cinema industry has been challenged by television, cinemas are falling back on sex to a great extent to attract patrons. It would seem that sex films are an attraction, if one is to judge by one film being shown in town this week and which many people are raving about. Persons under 18 years of age are not allowed in to see it. The emphasis is on sex in order to attract people to cinemas. The Minister should be more watchful than ever because whether such films are shown to people under or over 18 years of age, there is a lot more being shown than was formerly the case, if the Minister knows what I mean.

I have been shocked on a few occasions—and I am not easily shocked—by the obsession with sex that there was in books from libraries which I have read. The Minister should give this matter serious thought. I do not know how such books get into libraries. I would be ashamed to think that my children were reading such books.

Coming from a Border county, the first thing I should like to do is to welcome the statement of the Minister—which we knew about—that violence on the Border has ceased. At the moment we can look forward to an end to this great mistake which has affected many young people at certain stages over decades. The terrible results individually and for the nation as a whole which follow on that sort of activity will not arise again.

I welcome also the fact that it has been found possible to abandon the Special Criminal Court. I hope also that in the future, in his wisdom, the Minister may see his way to commute some of the sentences at present being served. It is true to say that when you make a martyr, you make a hero. When this thing has died down completely, as it has, and when the question of punishment has been dealt with by the courts, the Minister, if he has the power, might consider releasing any person now serving a sentence.

There is no such person.

There are none left —that is excellent. I did not know it but it is excellent because, as I say, when you make a martyr, you make a hero. That is a mistake. I am violently opposed to any expression of sympathy which can be construed as an expression of approbation by politicians and members of the House on occasions when young men made the mistake of perpetrating violence on the Border. I was heavily criticised for refusing to be associated with a vote of sympathy on a local board.

We as members of the House have the responsibility—and the Minister has lived up to that responsibility— of not giving expression to any emotion, be it sympathy or otherwise, which would de facto be an expression of approbation or support for such actions. The Minister carried out his duty well during the last trouble we had. The period of the past 12 months which we are now debating was marked by an awareness of the responsibility of the Oireachtas and I hope that will continue. Some years ago, that awareness was not so evident and after Border forays and incidents, members of the Oireachtas appeared at the funeral of some unfortunate mother's son of a tender age who had made that mistake.

In reply to Deputy Sherwin, the Minister said that the Press were not allowed into Mountjoy because of the fact that photographs might be taken which might show ways of escape to persons outside the prison who might want to help convicts. That is an aspect of the Press which we should have a look at. I remember a series which was run in a national paper, at a time when there were attempts at violence on the Border, giving clear indications of escapes. I would appeal to the Press not to incite violence in any way by giving any appearance of approbation such as I mentioned that we might give.

Having said that, I should like to go on to something the Minister did not mention at all. I have begun to worry—as have other members of the House and other people in the country —about the question of whether solicitors should be insurance agents in workmen's compensation cases, accident cases or motor car cases. Solicitors find themselves in the position of acting for a client who is taking an action against an insurance company—perhaps it is against an individual but really against the insurance company with which the individual is insured—and while they are not acting for the insurance company in the particular case, they are agents for the company. That situation is quite difficult for solicitors and very often satisfaction is not got by the client.

There is in all those cases the fact in the background—and I think the district justices are pretty realistic about it—that the insurance companies work out at the end of 12 months what their costs were for motoring accidents, workmen's compensation and personal accidents, and on that basis raise their premiums for the following 12 months to meet that cost, plus the profits they desire. While all that is true, it results in individuals very often getting very high awards, in my opinion, to the detriment of those who have to pay the increased premiums the following year. The solicitor may also find himself, while not breaching at all professional etiquette or professional ethics, actively interested in a case and, at the same time, agent for the company in some other cases. I know of individual instances in which this did not react favourably and it might be wise to look at that problem in the future.

The Minister mentioned an Bord Uchtála which he called the Adoption Board. I should like to say that I join with him in thanking those people for the wonderful work they are doing. I believe that we have the most wonderful adoption system in the world. The reason that is so is, I suppose, that 99.9 per cent. of the people belong to either one religious denomination or another, and it was quite easy for us to create a legal situation in which an adoption society could recommend to the Adoption Board, parents who wished to adopt children. That situation, I think, is unique in itself because it means that a member of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland or the Methodist Church or any religious denomination, who was a prospective parent of a child could be inspected by the society of his religious denomination and after a period of months, be recommended to the Adoption Board. The Adoption Board has done wonderful work and I am glad the Minister mentioned it. I sincerely believe we have what must surely be the best adoption system in the world, a system which gives a great deal of happiness to many people who would otherwise be deprived of the joy of children, if God did not give them any of their own.

Mention of censorship of books and films has been pretty general throughout the debate. Quite frankly, I do not think I am a prude, any more than the Minister is, and I think censorship of books, plays and films is good. Perhaps there may be criticism one way or another at times. Deputy Sherwin believes that certain films are allowed public showing which, in his opinion, should not be allowed, but, at the same time, we might find other Deputies or people in the country who would be very critical on the basis that the Censorship Board is too strict. By and large, I think it is fair enough. I believe those people do a good job and, of course, as they go along, they have to make decisions. Quite obviously, occasionally they will make a decision that is perhaps too harsh or perhaps too lenient. They are human, just as we are. I am sure people will agree that they do not muzzle us but that they seek to exclude the sort of literature and films to which Deputy Sherwin referred.

The Minister devoted a large proportion of his speech to remarks about the Garda. Before I say anything about that, I should like to congratulate a townsman of mine on his appointment as Assistant Commissioner. Mr. Michael Weymes received that appointment. The decision to appoint him was a good one and he is one of the most respected persons in the locality.

The Garda, in the last few years, have reached a crossroads in their history. That was inevitable because the great majority came in at the same time and arrived at retirement age at approximately the same time and, so, over the past few years, we have had a great influx of new members. I am sure the younger members of the Force now represent a higher majority than ever before. I think they have done very well. All the changes that have come about in recent years have not been without their troubles. Any change in personnel will make for difficulties, but any member of this House and of the general public will agree that the young Garda, arriving at a time of a colossal increase in traffic, some considerable increase in juvenile delinquency and the change in the pattern of national life, have given a very good account of themselves and that they will, with the guidance of the older officers, who are so much respected, continue to do so and become themselves leaders of the Force we admire so much.

I disagree with the Minister in what he says on pages 16 and 17 of his statement regarding the mechanisation and motorisation of the Force and that the numbers would be reduced. I do not think a squad car is any sort of substitute for a good sergeant and a couple of good Gardaí in a country station. These men, particularly those who have reached the rank of sergeant without going any further, are excellent people and are pillars of the society in which they live. They know everybody, the fathers and mothers, the families and their habits and for that reason, it is easy to be a good policeman in the country areas.

You will never get the same sort of service by using a number of squad cars with a smaller number of Gardaí stationed in the larger centres. I know it is not proposed to cut down all the country stations but I believe that the country Garda stations in each town and village are a necessary part of our set-up. It is questionable whether you will save a lot by mechanisation, although you are going to require an increased degree of mechanisation in the control of traffic and crowds. The Minister spoke of walkie-talkie apparatus. That will all come in time but I should like to make the point that it is no substitute for a good Garda sergeant and a couple of good Gardaí in the country areas.

Deputy Sherwin mentioned the Ban-Ghardaí. I think it is a horrible job for a girl and I cannot make up my mind whether they are needed. They came at the same time as we made up our mind to stop the export of horses. There was a certain number of other causes at that time. You will always have these causes and people to support them but if you go from one of them to the other, you will generally find that it is the same people who support them all, the majority of them crackpots and still more of them retired crackpots. It would be much better if, instead of having these Ban-Ghardaí, we had a half dozen trained nurses employed by the Minister in the big centres of population.

You might need a few plain clothes girls who would walk through these self-service stores. There is not the slightest doubt that this type of store will increase, not only where groceries and goods of that type are concerned, but also with regard to hosiery and other such goods. There is little doubt that you will have self-service in establishments like Marks and Spencer's and people going in there and taking nylons and other goods. There you will have the need of plainclothes girls to watch these shops but the sight of two girls in uniform coming down the street, as I see them here in Dublin, no matter how nice the uniform looks, only gives the impression that they have big feet. I think it is a horrible job and it is a mistake that we have inflicted it on them. Judging by the type of girl and the education they have, they would have got jobs anywhere.

The Minister is right to be worried about juvenile delinquency. This is not an Irish problem only; it is a world problem which has come with modern living. The vast majority of parents cannot now go home, sit down and say that they will have the Rosary at 9 o'clock. That set-up has gone with modern living. You have shift work, overtime, travelling to work and all the other devices that have come about to make people work harder. People have not the time to exercise the same amount of parental control as formerly and there is no use in blaming the parents for it. They are living in a modern whirligig and they have not the opportunity to give their children the training our fathers had.

There is some substitute so that the idle time of juveniles may be employed. In Drogheda, we have two boys' clubs which are run by a curate who was a famous athlete and footballer. These clubs, one in an old housing estate and another in a new housing estate, are a wonderful success. The one in the new estate serves about 1,000 houses. The boys have their own club and their own governing body. If a boy does something he should not do, such as using bad language, he is sent away and told not to come back for a month. The boys govern themselves and, as a result, we have had a great improvement in the behaviour of the boys in the town and I feel that this training is fitting them for after-life in a wonderful way.

In Drogheda, we gave a grant for the setting up of these clubs and I think the Minister might consider whether the Government could give some help towards the setting up of these institutions. There should also be girls' clubs because there is delinquency amongst girls also. Where you have a third of the people working in the daytime, a third of them at night time and another third working in the day and doing overtime afterwards, you have a state of affairs in which the young people are left very much to themselves. The clubs are a substitute for home life and it is much better to have a boys' club, with table tennis, billiards, suitable films and meetings for debates, than to have a situation where the husband is away half the time on shift work and does not know the whereabouts of his boys of 14 and 15 years of age. It is modern life and we have to face up to this question and see what we can do about it. I suggest to the Minister that what is being done in my constituency to combat juvenile delinqueny is about the best thing he could do throughout the country for the benefit of both boys and girls.

The Minister referred to motoring offences and to the 10/- fine. That seems a good idea but it bypasses such things as the irritating problem of travelling behind the slow driver on the middle of the road. This problem of the slow driver could be eradicated if traffic moved faster through cities and towns. It would also make for less congestion on the roads. Because of the cost, we cannot knock down rows of houses to make roads four times as wide as they are, but we should try to get at this motorist who drives slowly on the centre of the road and we could try as well to get traffic moving faster through towns and cities. The slow driver is much more dangerous sometimes than the road hog because he tries the temper of the man driving behind him and the driver's seat of a car is no place in which to lose one's temper.

The prime necessity, then, is to try to speed up the flow of traffic through the streets of cities and towns. In that connection, I do not suppose I shall be very popular when I say that the standard of driving in this country is not very high. I am hopeful that the initiation of the driving test under our new traffic legislation will promote better driving. It may also improve the flow of traffic through cities and towns.

The Minister mentioned recent legislation which enables justices to send young girls to convents and boys to institutions while awaiting trial, rather than send them to goals. That is an excellent idea but it is a pity it had to be introduced because of incidents which provoked a considerable degree of publicity. Now that it has come, however, I congratulate the Minister and his Department on it. It must have been a horrible situation for a Garda superintendent to find himself in the position of having to take to prison a young girl due to be tried ten days later for some offence. I hope this new legislation will be used to the full by the Garda.

I should like now to refer to the question of the use of police dogs, which received considerable publicity during the year. I should not like to be quoted as saying I am on the side of the dogs but I nearly would say it. I saw a photograph of one incident in which dogs were involved, I studied it very closely and as I have been handling dogs all my life—at present, I have four—I can say that the police dog in question was under perfect control. The dog was on a short lead and the Garda also had a little leather thing which he could use for banging the dog on the head, if he became obstreperous. As I say, the dog appeared to be under complete control.

He should not have been there.

Another good thing about my Party is that we can disagree on certain matters. I set out canvassing during the last election and went to a housing area, taking with me on a lead the most amiable of dogs, a Labrador retriever who spends his time playing with my children and licking them. After half a day, however, I had to take him home because while I was talking to a housewife on her doorstep, one of her children came out, saw the dog and turned around to run screaming into the house. A number of people in this country feel the same when they see either a dog or a horse. They get frightened immediately. Under similar circumstances in country areas, people feel no emotion because they are used to handling animals.

I suppose it will come to the situation when we must agree that police dogs should not be used and that they will not be used in the future. As I said earlier, I am nearly on the side of the dogs. I do not think they bit anybody; I believe they were under perfect control on all occasions; and that the hullabaloo was caused largely by hysteria which eventually became mass hysteria brought about because so many of our people are becoming urban-minded and have grown unused to handling animals. The use of police horses has become accepted widely in Britain but I feel they would get the same reception here as did the dogs for the reason I have stated. You will get half a dozen people to say the horse walked on their toes, when a horse will go to the ends of the earth to avoid walking on anybody.

The Minister did not make any mention of a matter which happened at the end of the year and which should be discussed because I do not think there is any point in cloaking it any longer since it is not sub judice. The Singer case was a terrible reflection on the prosecuting machinery of this country. It is true to say that a large number of people——

Surely the Deputy is not about to discuss the legal aspect of the Singer case? It would not be in order on the Estimate.

No. I was about to say that as a result of the outcome of that case a large number of people lost considerable amounts of money and that very few of them could afford it because they were old people who needed a greater return for their investments and who, by advertisements which some newspapers printed and others did not, were gulled into thinking they would make more money. In my opinion, the Minister and the Government did not face up to their responsibility in their dealing with this ghastly failure to bring to justice those who succeeded in perpetrating this common fraud.

There is no doubt the Minister and the Department worked hard during the year. The Minister introduced his law reform programme. He had the duty of steering it through the House and we had the duty of examining it as it went through. I presume that when this programme has been completed, another will follow it immediately afterwards, rendered necessary by the changing pattern of modern living. When it does, I hope that Deputy M. J. O'Higgins will be doing the Minister's job.

What about the Deputy?

But since the Minister's Party are over there, there is nobody I would better like to see in that seat than the Minister.

A week ago, the Minister found it necessary to take the unprecedented and unusual course of making a public appearance on television, urging the public to give greater co-operation to the police. He did so in regard to a murder investigation in the Midlands. There is no doubt that the circumstances warranted such intervention by the Minister. We can only hope that it will be fruitful. Nonetheless, it is, perhaps, true to say that there is a lack of public co-operation with the police, not only in this particular case but in other matters as well. I think the Minister should explain the state of his mind to us on this matter and he should tell us whether or not he has, for example, consulted with the Minister for Education as to what basic fundamental steps can be taken, if necessary, in our schools, to rid our people of a very deep-seated tradition, of lack of co-operation with the police by reason of the fact that 50 or 60 years ago the police in this country were agents of an alien oppressor.

Old traditions die hard. We, unfortunately, find ourselves in the position that there is not always that full co-operation with the police authorities we would all like to see. I believe it is a serious matter which should be very fully investigated at the educational level because I believe that the place in which the matter can be rectified is in our schools. Has the Minister consulted the Minister for Education about this? There is a great need for teaching civics in our schools which would be one of the steps which might achieve results in this respect.

I am very apprehensive of a policy which appears to me to have been enunciated by the Minister in his speech here today, a policy of cutting down the numbers of the police force in the future by reason of the mechanical aids, radio, police cars and such like, of which increasing use is being made. Like the last speaker, I feel very strongly that a patrol car is no adequate substitute for the Garda on foot. The psychological impact of seeing the Garda patrolling one's district at regular frequent intervals is very considerable. It is something which inspires the law-abiding citizen with tremendous confidence.

It is true that in many parts of Dublin nowadays one rarely sees a policeman on foot patrol. You see them flashing by in patrol cars or going by on bicycles but the old-style patrol with which we were familiar in our childhood is something which appears to be dying out. I regret that very much. In Dublin in particular, in regard to the surveillance function of the police force, there is a particular problem. In the blocks of Corporation flats which are frequently very large communities, as far as I know—and I say this subject to correction—the policeman on patrol will not normally enter the forecourt or the courtyard in order to keep his weather eye open for trouble.

These closely in-bred communities, so to speak, are places where delinquency among children in particular can be quite contagious. I am sure the Minister, as a Dublin Deputy, is familiar with a problem which all of us Dublin Deputies come up against from time to time—the case of a tenant of a flat scheme who approaches a public representative terribly anxious and terribly concerned to get a transfer by reason of the fact that his children are being subjected to scandal and bad example. We must have tremendous sympathy for parents in such a position. The police should keep a closer watch on these areas, but, for some technical reason, I believe they stay out of the flat schemes. If they kept a closer watch on them, much could be achieved.

The same consideration applies to public parks and gardens. I am not at present a member of the Corporation but I do recall, when I was a member of the Streets Committee of the Corporation, we were very concerned about serious misbehaviour in certain parks under Corporation control. It was not possible to obtain police action in the normal course of things in such places. If there is some anachronism in the law or some technical consideration here, it is one which the Minister should take a look at.

I am pleased to see that the Minister in his speech is able to report some measure of improvement in the living accommodation of the Garda. There are even in Dublin city too many cases in which members of the police force have to live in squalid conditions. We have in the Garda at present a highly educated type of young man who is entitled to the best living conditions and who regards first-class living conditions, very rightly, as being of equal importance to him as his pay and promotion prospects. I welcome the steps which the Minister is taking to improve police accommodation and I would urge him to intensify the pace of the development.

It seems to me that, when we erect new housing areas, the provision of amenities is one of the points that is looked at last of all. We first of all build the houses. It is only at a very late stage in the day that we think of providing schools, churches and police stations. Cabra, which is an area developed ten or 15 years ago, is only now being provided with a police station. I think I detect a change of policy in that a police station is to be built in Raheny, which is still in the development stage. Possibly that is because of the Minister's close interest in the particular area. I hope I am not being uncharitable when I say that. I would urge that the provision of police stations in new housing areas is something which should be regarded as urgent while the houses are being built and before the people are moved out in large numbers to these areas.

Again, in regard to the question of Garda pay and conditions, the Minister has reported that arbitration proceedings are at present going on. It is my personal hope that these proceedings will result in a pay improvement for the Force, putting them on a par with their colleagues across the border and in Great Britain, because the Garda for too long have been the Cinderellas of the public service.

The Minister had nothing whatever to say about the appalling traffic conditions in Dublin city. The traffic conditions in the capital city are so chaotic as to warrant particular mention by the Minister, without any apology in this House to those who come from other areas. I think I have seen recently that further parking restrictions are about to be imposed either by the police or by the Dublin Corporation. One of the odd things about traffic control in Dublin is that it is very hard to know who has the last word in the matter. I urge upon the Minister that no further parking restrictions whatsoever should be imposed until Dublin Corporation or the police authorities see fit to provide motorists with alternative parking accommodation. At present, one would think the average Dublin motorists is a criminal. It is no solution whatever to the problem to tell him that he should park out in the suburbs and travel into town on the bus. The inactivity of the public authority in Dublin in the matter of parking accommodation must be severely condemned by all reasonable people.

Again, I do not believe there are enough police in Dublin either for the patrol function to which I have referred or for traffic control. I know of one traffic junction—the corner of Fitzwilliam Place and Leeson Street— which is attended to at tea time but is not attended to at lunch time. At lunch time, when the traffic is almost as congested as it is at tea time, there is nobody on patrol duty there. Yet, there is nearly as great a problem on this main artery going out of town at lunch time as there is at tea time. I can only assume that the reason is lack of manpower.

Like all of us, the Minister is concerned about the growing problem of juvenile delinquency. Deputy Donegan made a very worthwhile suggestion in regard to the splendid work done by youth clubs in combating delinquency, in keeping our young people occupied and in training them as useful citizens. I should like to support Deputy Donegan's plea for greater official interest in the work of these clubs. I think it is true to say that hundreds, perhaps thousands, of zealous voluntary workers engaged in youth work are thwarted at every hand's turn by lack of funds and that these people have to devote much of their time to petty fund-raising activities.

It is unfortunate that, in these days of growing prosperity it should be necessary to depend on the sixpenny raffle and the 1/- pool for the advancement of work which is so much in the public interest. This is a matter to which I referred on a previous occasion on the Vote for the Department of Education. It is true that, to a very limited extent, that Department takes some part in youth work through Comhairle le Leas Oige. There are many youth clubs outside the scope of Comhairle le Leas Oige.

There is a great lack of resources and finance for this excellent voluntary work. I believe that the Minister, a Dublin Deputy and more familiar with this problem of delinquency than the Minister for Education, should take a greater interest in this matter. He might well find a partial solution to some of his problems in encouraging and fostering the voluntary activities of the hundreds of zealous persons who are concerned with youth welfare in this city.

The Minister has adverted to the initiation of the legal aid scheme during the past year. I would press on him the viewpoint that the legal aid scheme which we have at present is only a start. It is only a step in the right direction. It is a scheme which as far as I know is confined to criminal cases. Deputy Sherwin this evening referred very eloquently and very knowledgeably to certain types of legal proceedings in the Dublin District Court, proceedings for possession of Corporation houses and other tenancies. There is also the question of hire purchase cases. Two years ago, we introduced a very comprehensive Hire-Purchase Act which is of little avail to poor people, to ill-informed people, if they are not aware of their rights. For that reason, I would urge in the case of such ill-informed people, who invariably are ill-informed in these matters by reason of their lack of financial means, that there is great need to extend the helping hand of the legal aid scheme to them.

In connection with law reform, the Minister has set out quite a lengthy list of measures which have been promoted in the past year and upon which he is working at present. I notice amongst the list a Pawn-brokers Bill. I urge the Minister to go a step further and to have a look at the present state of the law relating to moneylending which, in my view, needs reform.

I must refer to a matter to which I did not intend to refer. The last speaker mentioned the use of dogs by the police in Dublin some weeks ago. I do not propose to go into any detail on the matter because it is a problem that has been well threshed out here. I feel compelled to make my protest as an individual Deputy about the misuse of police dogs in Dublin. These tracker dogs should be confined to tracking down criminals, for which they are trained. I believe the explanation of their use some weeks ago is that it was a mistake. If that is so, the Minister should admit it was a mistake which he regrets and which will not recur. He should give an assurance that for the future he will see to it that the use of these dogs is confined to tracking down criminals and they will not be availed of to thwart the constitutional right of any citizen—no matter who he is and no matter how much we disagree with him—to make his legitimate protest.

If it was a mistake, and I believe it was, I am appalled at the idea that there may exist in the police service persons who are capable of making such a mistake, who are not trained in such a way that they would recoil automatically and instinctively from any infringement of the liberty of the individual. We cannot compare police dogs with the horses which have been referred to.

If the police in the first instance got the co-operation the Deputy asked for, they would never have been used.

I have made my protest. I do not propose to get involved in an exchange on the matter, upon which, I think, enough has been said.

Mr. Ryan

We are all bitten with this canine question. I do not desire to develop it further, but we see, from some of the interjections from the Deputies opposite, that the use of dogs is apparently justified in their eyes if the orders of the Garda are not carried out. We must consider whether all orders of Garda in times of stress and strain are reasonable and are given by them in a reasonable manner, in such a manner as to encourage obedience. Any Deputy who is a motorist will probably have been questioned from time to time by members of the Garda in some small way in relation to traffic offences. There is hardly a Deputy, I suppose, who could not relate some incident.

My own experience comes readily to hand. When lawfully and properly driving at Christchurch Place, I was stopped by a member of the Garda in the first few weeks of the year because my car did not bear a current tax disc, due to no fault of my own but due to the volume of work which the tax office had to overcome at that time. I was treated as though I were a common criminal. I was asked for an explanation, and the request for the explanation was given in a most hostile manner. When the explanation was given—I having counted up to ten before I gave it—I got the answer: "Do you expect me to believe that story?" I told him he could check it, and he said he knew that very well and that he would see me again. He asked my occupation, but I did not recite my occupation as a public representative. I suppose if I had, there might have been a change of tune on his part. As soon as I got to my destination, I found that, at long last, my tax disc had been supplied along with my driving licence and other documents. I posted them that evening by registered post to the station of the Garda in question, and that was the end of it. That was an incident in the middle of the day when law-abiding citizens are entitled to be treated with respect by members of the Garda.

Are we to take it from the interjections of some Deputies opposite that a member of the Garda would be entitled to turn a dog on an unsuspecting motorist, or that the Garda should have a dog by his side lest some member of the public might properly take exception to being addressed in that manner? We are trying to teach our young people kindness to animals. What example is it when one hears of the use of animals deliberately for the purpose of attacking human beings—for the purpose of frightening human beings, if we confine it to that only? A dog baring its teeth and growling fiercely can strike terror into the heart of a person, but at the same time we tell children to love dogs and be kind to animals. It is simply a stupid fallacy. It is grossly unnecessary to use animals in that way.

Since I have touched on this question of teaching children to be kind to animals, let me recite another recent incident of very bad relations, as far as the Garda are concerned. In a Dublin suburb, there was a very popular dog, much loved by the local children. The dog allowed the children to ride on its back and to pull it around. Apparently, it was discovered it was annoying sheep on the local mountains and, very properly I suppose, an order was made for its destruction.

What did the Garda do? Four of them arrived from the local station in a squad car. The dog was concerned in the back garden of the house in which it lived. It was tied to a pole holding up a clothes line, and in the sight of all the children in this crescent, it was shot by the Garda. This was in the middle of the day. Is that not an appalling display on the part of the guardians of the peace and those who represent the State, those who should encourage people to have love for animals and to be kind to them?

I would hope we will have an end, once and for all, to the use of dogs by the police when they want to break up political demonstrations. If those Deputies on the opposite side, now howling for the use of dogs, would consider for a moment that the day might come when they would be out of office and that those dogs might be used against them, they might think twice about it. If you give your blessing to the use of dogs now, you are opening the door for the use, and misuse, of these animals in the future. I do not think this House should countenance that at all.

Last year, I voiced a certain amount of criticism concerning the use of batons by the Garda on traffic duty in Dublin. There were those who disagreed with me. They thought it would assist in the control of traffic at the major junctions to have the Garda armed with batons. As a result of allowing the use of these to continue, we have a new game called "cop the cop". What you are required to do is to cop what the "cop" is doing. It is a very difficult game to play, because the waving of the stick behind the Garda's back, the twirling of it down at knee-level, the swinging of it under the other arm, all can mean the same thing. The pointing of it at one or the twirling of it up in the air as though it were an umbrella can all mean the same thing. But if you are unfortunate enough to mistake what it means, you may find yourself getting an abusive address in the middle of a busy crossing while the rest of the traffic is left to find its own merry way home.

There was a time when our point duty men were our pride and joy. If they gave a signal, what it meant was quite clear. Their arms were out-stretched to one side or the other and there could be no doubt as to what the signal meant. That happy position disappeared the day the baton was introduced. It need not have disappeared if the Garda had received proper training in the use of the baton. It may be that they did receive such training, but, if they did, they are certainly not putting it into operation and the performance of most of our men on duty in Dublin at the present time is quite scandalous. I have seen many near collisions at many of our major traffic junctions because of the unfortunate signals now being given.

It is grossly unfair to city motorists and pedestrians, but what the unfortunate people from the country are meant to understand by the gyrations of our point duty men with the baton, I certainly do not know, and I am certain the unfortunate people from the country do not know either. I would appeal, therefore, for the immediate withdrawal of these batons, once and for all. If the Minister has no will to go so far, then I suggest that definite steps should be taken to ensure that the batons are properly used and not used in substitution for the signals laid down in the regulations, signals which are clearly intelligible to everybody, but are used rather to assist people in interpreting these signals. If that is not done, there will be very serious consequences and, if our district court justices are as observant as the rest of the motorists, I do not think they will be able to penalise anybody for misinterpreting most of the signals given at the present time in Dublin.

It is a maxim our courts try to apply, and which we all respect, that not only should justice be done but that justice should be seen to be done. It is regrettable that there are on the bench here a very small minority of judicial bullies who misuse their high office for the purpose of terrorising lawyers and lay people who appear before them and justice may not seem to be done in their courts. I could, I think, give on the fingers of one hand the number of such gentlemen, but, as they are there, and as they are misusing their high office, it is necessary that it should be pointed out here in this House that there lies in this Oireachtas of Dáil and Seanad Éireann the power to remove judges and justices from office. Some of them are sailing pretty close to the wind and the day may not be too far distant when a resolution may be tabled here to remove from office some of those who are using what they apparently consider to be an impregnable position to abuse lawyers and lay people appearing before them.

It is undesirable to mention names and you, Sir, might not perhaps allow me to mention names. If, however, there is a continuance of this conduct in future, names will have to be mentioned here because it is grossly unfair that the judiciary in general should receive a bad name because of the misconduct of a few members. There is one member of the High Court who is known for his opposition to the solicitors' profession and has been known on a number of occasions——

The Deputy is well aware that it is not in order to criticise the judiciary in this House.

Mr. Ryan

I have not named anybody, Sir, and I respectfully suggest——

The Deputy is coming very near the point of naming somebody.

Mr. Ryan

Sir, I have not fitted the cap on anybody.

Does the Chair mean the member is recognisable?

Mr. Ryan

Sir, I have been particularly careful not to name anybody, but I still think it is undesirable that a member of the judiciary, who cannot be answered back in court, should frequently accuse solicitors, naming them, of professional negligence and of contempt of court. The only place in which members of the judiciary can be named or can be criticised is here in this House. Were that done anywhere else, the person abusing his high office could hold the complainant in contempt of court. It is necessary now that a warning go out, once and for all, that this situation cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely. It is contrary to justice since, not only is justice not being done but it is not seen to be done in that particular gentleman's court. He has been known, perhaps, because he has a grudge against some members of the solicitor's profession who were not very generous with their briefs to him before he became a judge, to stop quite improperly costs being given to solicitors on the most fantastic grounds. It should lie on that man's conscience forever that he has done so. An appeal could lie to the Supreme Court but, if a solicitor is worth anything——

The Deputy is now proceeding to criticise the decisions of judges. The Minister has no control over such decisions and the matter may not be raised here and neither may criticism be made here.

Mr. Ryan

I will leave it at this: the matter can be and will be raised here in the near future, unless the gentleman in question mends his ways. I trust he will see my remarks. He will find the cap fits him perfectly.

It is unfortunately true that never in the history of this State has the morale of the Garda Síochána been so low. The reason for that lies directly and personally with the present Minister. For one thing, he allowed the Force to expect great things. I think it was at the end of last year and in the beginning of this year a crisis situation arose in the Garda. Men who had very genuine grievances were agitating. A large section of the Force— the men who will man the Force in the years to come—were deprived of any share in a pay award. When they took very proper steps to voice their grievance, they were threatened with disciplinary action. A very dangerous situation was avoided only because of the intervention of a high Church dignitary. If it had not been for that intervention, we should have found ourselves facing a very serious situation.

We should, I suppose, be grateful that it has passed, but the cause of the difficulty has not yet been cured. The men who were denied a share in the pay award last year have not yet got it and the restiveness has permeated to all the Garda. It is not just confined to the men with five years' service, or less—it has permeated the whole Force.

However, this deterioration in morale is not confined to the Garda alone. The Department of Justice is one of the few Departments that had not lost its head in the modern race to apply Parkinson's Law but it would seem that of late a very bad spirit has crept into the Department. We have had the extraordinary situation of some officers of that Department actually reverting in rank because of the appalling spirit which now prevails in the Department. That is not something which happened lightly. Civil servants do not lightly revert in rank and such a situation indicates that there is something very wrong.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 28th November, 1962.
Top
Share