Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Dec 1962

Vol. 198 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Industry and Commerce.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

I move.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £20,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.

This Estimate is necessary to provide for the preliminary expenditure on Ireland's participation in the New York World Fair. The Fair, which will open in April, 1964, is being held in celebration of the Tercentenary Anniversary of the city of New York. The central theme is "Peace and Understanding" for the purpose of educating the peoples of the world as to the inter-dependence of nations and the need for universal peace. About 75 countries will have pavilions in the international section of the Fair. The city of New York is in a special category as far as this country is concerned in that it has for so long been a port of entry for Irish emigrants to the United States and a place of residence of millions of Irish birth and descent. The Irish form one of the main population elements of the city. I feel sure, therefore, that Deputies on all sides of the House will agree that, despite the substantial cost, there are very good reasons why Ireland should be represented at an international exhibition of the magnitude contemplated for the 1964 World Fair. We are fortunate that a site of modest proportions has been secured in a very favourable location in relation to adjoining sites, including that of the United States, and ease of access.

The problems involved in participation in the Fair have been under examination for some time by an Inter-Departmental Committee. In considering what form our exhibit might take, the Committee concluded from the outset that any ideas should be discarded of presenting an expensive technical exhibit or one containing mechanical novelties aimed at capturing the imagination. Such an exhibit would be costly and would not be characteristic of the Irish scene; in any event we could not complete in this field with wealthier nations.

Suggestions as to the form of the exhibit were sought from numerous State-sponsored, trade and cultural bodies. The various ideas received were considered from the viewpoint of whether it would be possible to present an exhibit based on one central theme. No acceptable single idea emerged from the suggestions but an idea common to most of them was that a realistic image of Ireland and of the Irish people should be presented from certain aspects, including economic development, tourist attraction and cultural attainments at home and abroad. The Committee noted that it is the practice of many other countries in preparing for exhibitions of this kind, to aim at presenting in an attractive way the industrial, commercial, cultural and social life of the particular country, including a reference to their contributions to international welfare.

They recommended, therefore, that the most practical course to adopt would be to present a comprehensive image of this country using for this purpose the broad divisions of (a) economic development, which would depict selected aspects of industrial, agricultural and commercial activity and would include a reference to the facilities afforded for investment by foreigners, (b) tourism, which could include a display of tourist, recreational and sporting attractions, and (c) cultural attainments, in which could be featured Irish contributions to the development of other countries, particularly to the United States, and to the achievement of world peace. A display of this type would be consistent with the central theme of the Fair and would also possess the advantage that some positive benefits by way of increased trade, tourism or investment by foreigners might result from it.

I should explain that our display will be a national exhibit and will not take the form of a presentation of individual manufacturers' products. Particular products will be featured only to the extent that they are required to contribute to the general impression to be conveyed. I think it will be generally agreed that the Committee's recommendation affords the best prospect for presenting a suitable exhibit at the Fair.

The Government have entrusted responsibility for the design of the exhibit to a prominent Irish architect. In order to deal adequately with the many complex problems connected with the construction of a pavilion and an exhibit at a World's Fair in the United States, the Government have authorised the architect to engage the services of an American architect and exhibition designer of international repute who, in addition to designing and display, will also supervise the construction of the display and the building of the pavilion. I am satisfied that outstanding professional advice has been secured for the project and I am convinced that our exhibit will attain an extremely high standard. The plans for the exhibit are well advanced but they have not yet reached the stage where I could describe them in detail to the Dáil. Without wishing to exert any undue influence on the Committee or on the professional consultants engaged, I have expressed the view that our exhibit should not take the form of a glass and aluminium structure but should consist of something constructed on traditional lines which would have a high prestige value and which might include a colourful presentation of different aspects of Irish life.

The cost of constructing and operating an exhibit at the Fair, which will continue for six months in each of the years 1964 and 1965, is likely to be considerable. The Government have felt it necessary to limit the expenditure on the project to a maximum of one million dollars, or approximately £360,000. The bulk of the expenditure will be made in the financial year 1963-64 and will be provided for in the Estimates for that year. Strict control will have to be maintained over expenditure on all aspects of the project to ensure that it is kept within the limit prescribed. The Supplementary Estimate which I am now presenting to the Dáil makes provision for preliminary expenses likely to arise in the current financial year, comprising such matters as site rent, professional fees and expenses, and other miscellaneous expenditure.

I recommend that the House should approve of this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Sweetman

One of the difficulties in connection with any World Fair exhibition is, of course, the fact that for the small country to present anything is comparatively a much heavier burden on its resources than it is for the large country. The policy, therefore, in the past has been to pick out specific exhibitions or fairs in which participation by us would be of advantage and to concentrate our energies and resources on those rather than endeavour to skim a little through all of them. It has been a wise policy. It is perfectly clear, whichever policy we adopted in the past, that so far as the New York World Fair is concerned, in 1964 and 1965, it would be unthinkable for this country not to participate and to be represented in it. As the Minister has said, the amount of toil, sweat and energy in human beings from Ireland that has gone into building up the United States of America, entering through New York, has been so considerable that we must of course take part, no matter what the cost may be.

I hope, however, when the exhibit is being planned, an attempt will be made to portray our country in a more dignified way than sometimes has been the case in the portrayal that has come in some instances to be regarded as normal in the United States of America, Too often in the past it has been represented that the Irish were a wild and uncouth race of people, going over there to fill jobs and to carry out tasks and to occupy places not of the highest order. To some extent, perhaps, we have occasionally contributed to that idea ourselves by portraying a type of stage Irishman that has gone long ago. It is absolutely essential in an event such as the New York World Fair that the portrayal should be on a wholly dignified plane, that it should build up, not the conception that there may be in some people's minds of what the Irish are, but the image of what we should like them to appreciate us as being.

To digress very slightly to an aspect of a motion that is down for consideration by this House on another occasion, I have to doubt that one of the difficulties of getting Irish whiskey drunk in the United States of America is that unfortunately Irish whiskey has become typified there over the years as a drink that is taken in brawls and in the lower class saloons. That, of course, is entirely away from the fact, entirely untrue, but, unfortunately, it is the image that has been created over the years and it has made the task of selling whiskey in America infinitely more difficult. This is an occasion where we will have an opportunity of portraying the image of our country, of selling the image of our country, and if there is to be any error, I hope that error will be on the side of over-stressing dignity rather than overstressing anything else.

I gather from the Minister that the fair will be open in the last six months of 1964 and will run through the first six months of 1965.

Mr. J. Lynch

From the middle six months of each year. From April on in 1964 and from April on in 1965.

Mr. Sweetman

It is not to be a consecutive period of a year. I do not understand the point of that but perhaps the Minister would explain it to the House.

Mr. J. Lynch

It is to get the best weather in each of two years.

Mr. Sweetman

It will involve a very high maintenance cost for everyone during the intervening six months, but of course it was a decision that was not taken in consultation with us; it was a decision of their own and clearly, as I say, one with which we have to fall in and agree. It would be unthinkable that we should not participate. I do not know whether the Minister yet has any indications of a more detailed description of the image to be portrayed. I can understand it quite well if he says at this stage he has not and, in that case, I assume he will be prepared to give us those details when his main Estimate comes along for consideration next year.

I trust that while the ideas of an architect will be given free rein, yet, at the same time, the decision on those ideas will not be left entirely to architectural people. It would be unthinkable for what I may, perhaps, describe as a layman to endeavour to plot and plan what is an architectural concept and what must be developed by someone who has the training and ability. I do not know, quite frankly, whether I am peculiar or not but I certainly would not at all agree that the decision should be left to such a person alone. It seems to me that it is far better for a skilled person to make the presentation and for someone who is, shall I say, typical of the viewer, to be the person finally to determine whether the presentation as put forward by the architect is correct or not. In this case I suppose the person should be the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

It would be highly undesirable that the Minister should just give general instructions to an architect or an architectural committee—I understand an American expert is to be brought in—and leave the entire matter to them. It should be quite clear that the decision rests with someone else, presumably the Minister, unless he has delegated it to some lay body, apart from the professional body, and they therefore would be more likely to be governed by the reaction of the person who will see it than by the reaction of the person who wants to create it. Without in any way being critical of creative people, we all know they are rather inclined occasionally to think that something that is startling is the acme of creative work. That may be so in certain respects, but in this case the guiding principle should be one of presenting a dignified image of our country rather than a startling one.

Mr. Corish

It would be impossible for me to say whether one million dollars is a sufficient amount to establish an Irish exhibition in the New York World Fair and therefore, I leave it to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and his advisers to say what the proper amount should be. It would also be impossible for me to say what the picture to be shown in the Irish exhibition would be, but I do not think anybody could take exception to the three themes that might be depicted in the Irish exhibition. I certainly agree with Deputy Sweetman when he says we could do much more harm than good, as we have in other cases, by giving the impression that this country is still populated with what the Americans and other people regard as stage Irishmen. If we have emphasis in any way on the pig and the clay pipe, we can do much more harm than good.

I did not know how modest or how extravagant this effort is going to be, but the Minister is much more conscious than most people of the harm that might be done if our effort would seem to be too niggardly. If it was too niggardly and gave the impression of a poverty stricken country we would do much more harm than good. I also agree with Deputy Sweetman when he says that the construction and the general lay-out and design should not be left entirely to an architect. I am certain the Minister did not intend to convey that in his speech but that the architect would be solely employed to set up, so to speak, or design the actual framework of whatever pavilion this country is going to have.

I assume that in the general presentation of Ireland through this pavilion many other bodies will be consulted including—and I thought it might have been mentioned by the Minister but perhaps I missed it—the Arts Council. Irish industry, I am sure, will also be consulted. As I said, it is impossible for me to say what money should be spent or to suggest a theme or a picture and I merely want to say that as far as we are concerned we do not object to this proposal.

Mr. Dolan

It is essential that our country should be represented at such a very important event as a World Fair. In the modern world in which we live it is highly important for a small country such as ours to try to get it across to other nations that we are a progressive nation and that we have made great strides, in the past 40 years, towards a better standard of living and greater efficiency in manufacturing goods and in achieving in general the national aims of our people. I feel that all our exiles, and there are thousands if not millions of them in the United States, will during the course of the World Fair pass along those international stalls and exhibits. I am confident they will be greatly thrilled if the country of their origin is seen displayed in those shop windows with articles manufactured in this country which can compare favourably with those of any other nation. We pride ourselves on our manufacture of spirits, particularly Irish whiskey. If our people in America bought one bottle of Irish whiskey per year, that would be of immense value to us. It would be much better than all the advertising indulged in by the distillers to try to put their products across. Similar products from other countries have been heavily subsidised and highly advertised for generations past.

I believe that those of Irish extraction who visit this World Fair will be very glad to see portrayed there some of the individuality of their own nation. Apart from the display of goods, I presume some attention will be paid to letting people know that the Irish language is still alive. Indeed, it should be used in advertising some of these displays. I believe it would be an added attraction to my mind, and very often, the non-national likes something different. We could get it across that we have made tremendous progress in every sphere of our national endeavour. Our own people would be delighted. Bodies such as Gael Linn could help in promoting this exhibition. I commend the Minister for introducing this Supplementary Estimate and hope that advertising will be of a very high standard and that it will repay one hundredfold not alone in prestige but in securing fresh markets and augmenting those already established there.

Mr. McQuillan

While I have no objection to this Supplementary Estimate, I want to ask the Minister, in the name of common sense, why it is we have to wait so long before making an attempt at Government level to take part in a World Fair? For the past eight years in London, there has been a food exhibition at which 87 countries have shown their goods. Every civilised agricultural country has taken part in that exhibition; yet we have not thought it worth our while, living within three hours of London, to put up even one small stand to show Ireland to the world. Now we propose to spend £20,000 on a prestige effort in New York.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

£300,000.

Mr. J. Lynch

£20,000 will do for Deputy McQuillan.

Mr. McQuillan

I had not time to even glance at this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

One million dollars.

Mr. McQuillan

If it is a million dollars, I do not know where we will end. A Deputy on the Fianna Fáil benches talked about the possibility of getting Irish people in America to drink Irish whiskey. I presume the distillers will be given an opportunity to display their products on this stand. The distillers have been subsidised for the last eight years by the taxpayers and they have failed to sell any of their products in any market in the world. I know we have Irish connections in America. There must be at least 20,000,000 with Irish blood in them. As the Fianna Fáil Deputy said, if these bought one bottle a year they would be doing a good turn for the home country. Have they made any attempt to do that?

Mr. J. Lynch

If some of the Irish people at home brought it, they would be doing a good turn.

Mr. McQuillan

I agree. Despite all the publicity, what sale has Irish whiskey got in America in the past five to seven years? Remember, £80,000 a year of the taxpayer's money has been devoted to helping these people to sell their product. Will portion of this money go again in the form of a hidden subsidy to these people who have failed the national economy by their failure to sell their goods?

There is a consumption of £600,000,000 of spirits in America. The Scotch market is about £47,000,000. The Irish market is not even a fraction of one per cent. Yet, we are proposing now to spend $1,000,000 to show Ireland at the New York World Fair. I have no objection to an expenditure I thought was in the region of £20,000, to do what every other country is doing, namely, display its goods, but I would prefer to see this sum being spent where we would get a return for it; that is, across the Irish Sea, only a short distance away. I am afraid this Estimate is founded on what all this Government's Estimates seem to be founded: "Far away fields look green".

Mr. A. Barry

I disagree with Deputy McQuillan in his estimate of the number of Irish in the United States of America. It is estimated that there are about 40,000,000 with Irish blood in them in America. It would be very wrong, I think, for Ireland not to take part in this World Fair. I should like to hear from the Minister what kind of exhibit we will provide. He did say goods would not be shown by individual firms. Do we propose showing Irish products or will it be a purely prestige pavilion?

Mr. J. Lynch

It will be a prestige pavilion and goods will be shown only in so far as they will be consistent with the general theme of the exhibit.

Mr. A. Barry

There are curious corollaries to that. I do not know, for instance, whose goods will be shown. Taking whiskey as an example, will all Irish whiskey be shown, or whose whiskey will be shown? Will there be no "punch" selling? Will it be a very decorative effort? The results for us might not be so good. It may not be fair to question the Minister on details like this at the moment. We must take part in the Fair. We have an empire in America. Our links are closer, stronger, more influential than ever before. There is more than trade involved.

With regard to the pavilion, I do not know who the architect is. I have a great fear of architects. I think architects are all a bit "screwy". Two or three should always be engaged, to keep an eye on one another. Above all, some lay people should be brought in to watch the architects. I do not know if the Minister has considered recruiting assistance from someone on the Arts Council or setting up a committee of citizens who would be conscious of the need for attractiveness and dignity.

The Minister used the word "traditional" and said that he was inclined towards it himself. I am not quite sure what he means. Sometimes I am afraid of that word. It led us in the past in the wrong direction. The British, in their advertisements in America, and particularly in their tourist advertisements fill pages with old English cottages, Beefeaters and bits of history. It has become rather a joke because the British do not pay much attention to those things themselves, but the Americans do. The Americans think the British countryside is littered with that paraphernalia, as if England had not advanced since the 16th century. The British convey that to the Americans and the Americans like it.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Beefeater is selling their gin.

Mr. A. Barry

It is one of many kinds. They also sell Scotch more efficiently than we are selling Irish whiskey. I am a bit uneasy about this. I have every confidence in the Minister and in his own willingness to listen to other people's advice. A thing like this could be a mess or it could be something of which we should be proud. I have attended some few exhibitions and I feel that the bigger countries overpower the smaller countries with the type of pavilions and stands they provide. We should try to get our message across in as simple and as charming a way as is within the bounds of good taste. The Minister should consult all the organisations that have links as between this country and America, whether they are travel organisations or trading organisations. I am sure the Minister will ask Córas Tráchtála to co-operate with him on this job.

He mentioned that he proposes to stress three things: agriculture, industry and tourism. I hope that is not the order in which he proposes to stress them. That order should be reversed. I do not see any point in advertising our agricultural produce and progress, if any, in the United States. There is not a great deal of point in advertising our industrial products because very few of them will sell there except the traditional ones, and whiskey, in which there is room for expansion.

Tourism is another question. It is most important in view of our other activities in carrying tourists here. Tourism should be the keynote of the stand which we erect. At an exhibition like this, the stand should be subjected to the most critical scrutiny by people most competent to scrutinise it. We should not move in the direction of excessive modernism and we must be very careful about the traditional because it is a very tricky and sometimes a humiliating procedure. I am not sure if the old thatched cottage is the right line to take.

It is very necessary that there should be co-operation between all the bodies who might advise the Minister. No one group of people should overpower the organisation. I do not think it would be unfair to ask the Minister to see that the initial preliminary plans of the proposed exhibit should be made available to members of the House before a final decision is taken.

Mr. Sherwin

I was at an international housing conference in Brussels a few years back, during the period of the Brussels World Fair. There were some quite stupendous exhibitions and the Russians seemed to have the most spectacular of all, with their sputniks and their other accomplishments. The Russians and Americans between them captured the show. We had a small stand.

When you are exhibiting in a foreign country where a foreign language is spoken, you do not get a very good result. Here we are dealing with an exhibition in the States where they speak the same language as we do. Therefore, we will have a 100 per cent advantage over the people from non-English speaking countries. As has been said, we have over 20,000,000 Irish people in the States. I know New York because I lived there for a while, and I know that all the nationalities are well-organised. It would pay us to work in conjunction with these organised societies, especially the Irish societies.

Since we are interested in tourism as well as trade, some attempt should be made to organise the Irish in America to bring some tourist business here around the period of the exhibition. A large number of Irish people could be inspired to come here by what they see there. Almost everyone goes to these exhibitions. The international exhibitions are such a sight that few people miss them. I am sure that many people who have thoughts of visiting Ireland and feelings of wanting to see their homeland again could be encouraged to come here if we had organised excursions, and in that way we would get back some of the money we are expending.

I am always impressed by excursions and organised affairs not left to the individual. There is a Thursday excursion to Belfast that does well because it is cheap, well organised and advertised. I am sure they make three times more money on that day than on any other day of the week. By organisation and perhaps cutting prices, large numbers of Irish people could be encouraged to come here. At this exhibition, we have the advantage of exhibiting to the Americans and to the other nationalities who have become acquainted with the English language. That is a tremendous advantage which we should not miss. I am sure that if the Irish in America were organised to come back here as tourists, they would come, and the dollars they would spend would make up for what we are expending.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am in agreement with the other speakers that we should have a stand at this World Fair in New York, but there is one word of caution and warning I should like to give to the Minister. The Minister is a lawyer and he knows that many a good case has been lost by too high an opening. Counsel in opening to the jury very often open too high and a very good case is lost as a result.

We should endeavour not to exaggerate what we have to offer to any visitor to this country. I have seen some magazines produced by Bord Fáilte and one would imagine to look at them, seeing people bathing on strands, and seeing the various ballrooms, that we were in one of those Las Vegas establishments of din, gin and sin, instead of giving a true picture of what our Irish seaside resorts are like.

There is not much use in displaying our agricultural produce on a stand in New York, unless there is some hope of selling it there, and I am afraid that if we are to sell our agricultural produce abroad, we will have to look more to the east than to the west. I see no prospect of selling very much of our agricultural produce in the States. Again, in regard to our industrial produce I cannot see very much hope of our exporting that to the United States of America, but we can sell our tourist attractions to the States and we should concentrate on them. We should give a true picture of what these people may expect when they come here.

As a result of the establishment of the Inland Fisheries Trust, we have improved our Inland Fisheries considerably. As a result of the activities of voluntary bodies, we have now improved our sporting sea fishing as distinct from industrial sea fishing. We have our golfing, our shooting and our scenery. These are all things we can put across, thus attracting a considerable number of tourists to visit here in passing on their way to Continental countries. But, for goodness sake, let us not paint the picture too rosy. If we do so, when these people have come here once, they will never come again. We will be only doing more harm than good, so far as making them advertising agencies for our tourist attractions.

A number of speakers have spoken about one thing we could export, that is, Irish whiskey. At present at least 80 per cent. of the whiskey consumed in the States is imported from Canada and Scotland, and only a very small percentage — almost a fraction of a percentage—comes from Ireland. How many of us have had the experience of seeking Irish whiskey in New York and seeing how it is presented, as distinct from how other whiskies are presented? It is something the Minister could look into. Some Deputy pointed out that there is a considerable sum spent each year in subsidising the export of whiskey. We can make very good whiskey here, but not everybody can sell it. A serious effort should be made to channel our whiskey through some of the agencies through which other whiskies are being channelled in the States. If we could do that, I have no doubt that whiskey is one of the commodities we could freely export.

Another commodity we could export — it is a small one but it has become a big attraction in the States at present—is carrageen moss. I have seen small packets of it sold in the States for as high as half a dollar. We are very lucky if we can get three shillings a stone for it here, selling it in bulk. It is something in which Bord Iascaigh Mhara might interest themselves, and something which we might advertise at a fair such as this. There is not much use in advertising our butter, our beef and our industrial products because we can never hope to compete with the United States in these products.

I have much sympathy with the Deputy from Cavan who suggested that Gael Linn should be brought in. I am afraid, however, the American businessman is a very hard-headed gentleman and he is not too interested in our Irish language. We should be interested in putting across to him in a language he understands what we have to sell. That is the important thing. Let us try and assist the language in other ways, but we would be carrying it too far by bringing it across to the States and endeavouring to advertise our produce there through the medium of the Irish language.

I do not begrudge the expenditure of £330,000, if we can get something for it. It is sad, as Deputy McQuillan pointed out, that there has been an exhibition in London for the past eight years at which we are not represented. I was unaware of that and I presume the statement is uncontradicted. Even if we have not done so in the past, surely London is now one of the places where we should show our products, in view of our forthcoming entry into the Common Market? We should show them not only for London but for all the other countries of the Common Market. In addition to this £330,000 for the American fair, it might be possible for the Minister, even at this stage, to channel some moneys towards the displaying of our wares at the food exhibition in London to which Deputy McQuillan referred.

Mr. Mullen

I wish to compliment the Minister on deciding that we should exhibit at the New York World Fair. It is a step in the right direction. Such actions are badly needed in the interest of our country. I note what the Minister said about the presentation of the exhibition, that it will not take the form of individual manufacturers' products. I appreciate we could not do that and ensure that all the different manufacturers were represented satisfactorily. But undoubtedly we will have to display some goods, and I was wondering if we would avail of this opportunity to display the products of the Irish Sugar Company, who are doing excellent work in the matter of food processing —a type of food very acceptable to the Americans.

If we are to display Irish whiskey, an understanding should be arrived at beforehand on the manner of presentation to ensure it conforms with proper standards. Everybody will agree that the behaviour of the Whiskey Distillers' Association here is not the very best, having regard to the way they try to push their wares. Sometimes they appear to be quite content just to stay easy and not make any progress. They are satisfied to avail of all the forms of subsidy extended to them down the years to promote their sales.

Mr. Sweetman

I do not think everybody would agree with the Deputy, all the same. Here is one person who does not.

Mr. Mullen

I am expressing my opinion.

Mr. Sweetman

The Deputy said everybody would agree.

Mr. Mullen

If you analyse it, you must agree.

Mr. Sweetman

No, not at all.

Mr. Mullen

I propose to explain my point. Not so very long ago, the Whiskey Distillers' Association were asked to join in furthering the sales of whiskey outside the country. They were asked to give a measly few bottles of whiskey for an exhibition, 12 bottles in all. There was great difficulty experienced by the promoters in getting three bottles from each of the members. The exhibition was held in Torquay and was so successful that there was a terrific demand for cases of Irish whiskey. The Press people were very impressed with Irish coffee, but the people who put on the Irish coffee had to pay for the whiskey. That is the type of attitude to which I am referring.

Thousands of pounds have been spent in America on furthering the sales of Irish whiskey, and how far have we got? We have made no progress at all in securing portion of the market from Scotland. We do not seem to have the right technique. I would hope that the day will come when we will send whiskey to America and that it will go through one source alone, approved by the Government.

In this matter of exhibitions, we should try to have some exhibition of a permanent nature nearer our own country. Why can we not have permanent exhibitions in England, particularly in London. Manchester and Liverpool? A sum of £360,000 is to be spent on this New York programme and I would hope a similar sum would be spent putting on exhibitions nearer home, say, in London, trying to make them of a permanent nature. We will then be in a position to sell more goods. We talk of thousands of Irish people in America but we should not forget the thousands and thousands of Irish people who are forced to live in England, Scotland and Wales. They are just as patriotic as the American-Irish; in fact, they are more patriotic and obviously care more about their country because they are sending home money during the years since they were forced to emigrate when they could not find employment here at home.

Apart from those people, if we had permanent exhibitions in different parts of England, we would help tourism by bringing to this country many more English people. It would all depend, of course, on the image we presented. We must be very careful to ensure that we do not give misleading impressions to people we are urging to come here. I agree with Deputy Barry when he suggests we should put tourism first when considering efforts of this kind. Obviously, we stand to gain a great deal from tourism by bringing the English, the Americans, the Scottish and the Welsh visitors over here. By doing that, the benefit will also be felt by agriculture because we shall have to feed the tourists.

I hope when this exhibition takes place, there will be perfect understanding in regard to the theme. It could easily happen that the architect would be told to do something, would do it, and when done, you would find that it is not to the complete satisfaction of those who commissioned it. Then it is too late. I hope the American architect who is being approached in conjunction with our own, will understand that he must conform strictly to instructions given and not give rein to his imagination because Americans have an odd way of assessing our characteristics.

Mr. Clinton

I have no doubt that, sensibly approached, this fair can become a valuable opportunity. I attended the Brussels Fair some years ago and the impression I got was that it was all too symbolic and that if we were similarly represented there, it would have been of no practical value to a small country not particularly interested in world power and prestige. Almost the entire effort there was concentrated on the actual pavilions, as if to see who could produce the most expensive, the biggest or the most unusual building. We should not be interested in that aspect of it, in which in any case, we cannot complete. It is of no value to us. We should be anxious to provide a building that will give us adequate accommodation and be reasonably ornamental and attractive in appearance. That is all we require and it would be foolish to put a lot of money into the building itself.

We should use it as a means of achieving the maximum sales value and we should concentrate the expense on having the best possible representation available there when the time comes. We should have the maximum information available with the maximum quantity and variety of our goods. We should have sufficient people there to talk to all who come along and explain what we have and make the greatest possible effort.

In Brussels, it was very difficult to get anybody interested in what was on the stands. Because of the symbolic theme, I suppose, you were expected to appreciate everything happening in the country. Possibly it was intended to make one inquisitive but you could not get any information you wanted there on the spot about the various countries. We should make the most of this opportunity to sell Irish goods to those who will come to see this stand.

Mr. J. Lynch

I am very pleased that the approval of the House has been so fully given to this Supplementary Estimate. When the Government examined this proposal at first, they did so with some trepidation. They gave it very close and careful study and only after that did they decide to participate in this World Fair. They felt, as the House obviously feels, that if a World Fair is being held in New York of the magnitude envisaged, it is one World Fair that Ireland should not be out of. Contrary to what Deputy Sherwin suggested, we were not in the Brussels Fair. No doubt the Government of the day weighed up the pros and cons carefully and decided not to go in.

Like many Deputies who spoke, I visited the Brussels exhibition and one would require a week to see all that was to be seen there. In the short time at my disposal, I found that one of the most attractive exhibits was that of the comparatively poor country of Morocco. Its exhibit was sited in a corner beside a site occupied by the Russians, the Americans, the Vatican and, a little further away, the British. In the immediate vicinity, the competition was fairly strong but that exhibit impressed. It was on traditional lines and not garish.

Deputy Barry suggested there was a connotation of "traditional" that he did not like. The context in which I used the word was in regard to the building and that was one decision I took without caring who advised to the contrary, that there would not be a glass and aluminium structure because every American who will visit that fair will have emerged from a plethora of glass and aluminium before reaching it.

Mr. Sweetman

Although one would like it from other points of view, not going back to the thatch.

Mr. J. Lynch

Deputy Sweetman suggested that I might be able to give an idea of the form of the structure. I fear I am unable to give much detail. It will not be a square building but it will have a fairly favourable site quite close to the American exhibit, which, no doubt, will be of fairly pretentious proportions. Of the 75,000,000 people expected to visit the fair, the vast proportion will be Americans and there will be a great advantage in having our exhibit close to the American. We can reasonably assume that many Americans who will visit the American exhibit, whether or not they have any ties with Ireland, will at least see, and I should say, inevitably come to visit our exhibit.

We hope to have an attractive entrance, not necessarily a door, that will lead one in. Then, there will be a little patio probably in the open air and that will lead into the main exhibition hall. None of these will be on a pretentious basis. By and large, these were the ideas the architect got, having visited the site itself and having discussed the amount of space at his disposal. That general concept would appeal to most Deputies. I cannot at this stage give any more details about it. I suggest it ought to appeal to Deputies rather than having a square building with a door opening on an avenue or road.

Mr. Sweetman

Would the Minister consider putting a photograph of the drawings in the Library ?

Mr. J. Lynch

I will consider that, but as the Deputy will understand, when you have too many cooks, it is very difficult to formulate any unified idea. I certainly will consider it. I want to assure the House, first of all, that I, for one, will not have anything like the clay pipe and the leprechaun. I would be very conscious of the manner in which we can portray ourselves in the United States.

I was there quite recently myself, as the guest of the National Foreign Trade Council, who held their convention in the last week of October. I was conscious of the manner in which an Irishman can present himself and being conscious of that, I was not going to put a clay pipe in my mouth, metaphorically speaking. I spoke to a man who had an Irish name. I presume he had Irish ancestry. He is in an important position.

I was reading the other day in Tatler's Column in the Irish Independent a reference to this man's conversation with me. This same man who was at a lunch asked me about Irish economic progress and about many other aspects, including the licensing laws about which I was able to give him some information. The only quotation in Tatler's article was to the effect: “Oh sure we passed a law to open the pubs on St. Patrick's Day last year.” That certainly was not the impression I got myself of the conversation I had with this gentleman. I was very disappointed to read it. I have asked for the original article and will convey my displeasure to the gentleman concerned.

It is easy to convey a wrong impression to the people in the United States because they want to believe these things about us. I mention that to indicate how concerned I would be to take the clay pipe and leprechaun out of it.

Mr. Sweetman

Is this an extract from an article on America?

Mr. J. Lynch

Tatler—I do not know who the gentleman is. He was quoting from an official American publication he had seen. It made me conscious of the manner in which one can portray an Irishman in the United States.

In regard to the freedom of action of the architect, as Deputy Sweetman suggested inevitably he will have to have a certain amount of freedom. He has been in touch with the Committee that has been set up to steer this project through. As I said, there is a Committee on which all the Departments that could be interested are represented, including the Office of Public works. By that participation we have professional representation on the Committee. The Committee have found the architect most helpful and sympathetic in regard to any ideas they have put forward. While, of necessity, he has his own individuality, he is not going to get an entirely free hand. The architect is in America. He is a young Irish architect.

Mr. Sweetman

Is there any objection to telling us his name?

Mr. J. Lynch

His name is Mr. Andrew Devane. He was not selected by me out of thin air. He was selected from a panel presented to me by the Institute of Architects in Ireland.

Mr. A. Barry

I did not know he was appointed. The reference I made to architects was made without that knowledge.

Mr. J. Lynch

Remarks made never apply to present company.

Mr. A. Barry

He is not present.

Mr. J. Lynch

I am speaking metaphorically. It was published immediately after his appointment.

Mr. Sweetman

Is the Arts Council represented on the inter-Departmental Committee?

Mr. J. Lynch

Not directly, but the Committee keep in consultation with the Arts Council as it does with all other bodies that would have any interest, such as the Cultural Relations Committee, Bord Fáilte, Córas Tráchtála, the Industrial Authority, Aer Lingus and so on. There is full consultation as occasion arises with these people. On the advice of the Irish architect, we appointed an exhibition designer. I mentioned the name of our architect. He spent some years under that famous American architect, Mr. Wright. He had a certain knowledge of the American scene.

As a result of that knowledge, he had contact with another exhibition designer whose eminence is well-established. One would wonder whether we should rely upon an exhibition designer from Ireland or elsewhere. We found, I will not pass any comments on the quality or otherwise, that, on balance, once we got an exhibition designer of sufficient calibre and his knowledge of and sympathy with Ireland were established, it would be better to have such a man on the scene. That man, in fact, was an architect.

We discovered, apart altogether from his interest in Ireland, that having appointed him, he came of his own volition to Ireland on holidays with his wife. He has a very high regard for the Irish people. I can assure the House that I was very much impressed with this post factum knowledge of the interest of the exhibition designer in us. We are well satisfied with this man's appointment. I believe we will be well satisfied with the presentation of Ireland.

On that subject, I endorse entirely what Deputy P. O'Donnell said. We are not going to do it in a ballyhoo way. Personally, I do not like ballyhoo. I think it would be wrong to present a front that would not be borne out in reality. This will be an honest portrayal of Ireland and the Irish people. It will show, I hope, a compact country whose affairs are well managed, whose feet are firmly established on solid ground and whose people are not only dignified and well conducted but realistic. It will show a country pleasant to come to and pleasant to live in. These are the general ideas I have of what we will require.

Mention was made of the lack of participation in the World Food Fair in London. I have not any close knowledge of the food fair in London but I have knowledge of our permanent exhibition at Frankfurt in Germany. Down through the years we have found it difficult to interest Irish manufacturers in taking stands or parts of stands at these international fairs because they say the cost of participation is never reflected in the actual returns to them. They find it more valuable to send representatives directly to known customers or potential customers in those countries so that fixed exhibitions in places abroad are not always the best way of making progress.

Córas Tráchtála have a premises in Regent Street, London, in which they house regularly Irish products. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get suitable space in that part of London and to get it elsewhere would not be of much value. The particular drawback that the premises in Regent Street has is that under the lease none of the tenants is permitted to display any products outside, so that one has to go right in and down a corridor of perhaps 30 feet in length before one sees anything in that premises. Therefore I should say active steps have been taken to remedy that position and I hope that before long we will be better able to present Ireland in the heart of London, where Deputies obviously agree that we should do so.

I think I have covered most of the points made. I want to associate myself with Deputy Sweetman in his rejection of an allegation made by Deputies Mullen and McQuillan. He knows, and I know, that perhaps to some extent the difficulties there are in the way of protecting Irish whiskey. We did make an effort in the last few years, which was contributed to by the whiskey distillers themselves, in the United States. There was this institutional campaign, which was sponsored mainly by CTT with financial assistance from the Department of Industry and Commerce Vote, but at the same time there was an obligation on the distillers to contribute to that campaign. The Irish whiskey distillers are concerned not so much about the extent to which Irish whiskey is selling abroad as to the extent to which other whiskeys are selling in this country and they propose to do something about it.

Mr. Sweetman

Hear, hear.

Mr. J. Lynch

I have got some information about what they propose doing and I can promise here and now to give them my full support. I would urge on Irish people who like Irish whiskey not to take other whiskey just because it is fashionable or a fad. I believe that many people take whiskey other than Irish whiskey because they feel it is the thing to do. That mentality prevails in our whiskey-drinking public too much. I shall not say any more at this point because we will have a fuller debate on this again when the time comes for the main Estimate. This Vote is for £20,000 which will cover the first year's rent. The cost of the site will be roughly £26,000. The amount sought here will, as I say, cover the first year's rent, which is either payable forthwith or before 31st March, and certain other incidental expenses.

Mr. Sweetman

May I ask the Minister to make it quite clear if the final approval of the design will rest with him?

Mr. J. Lynch

The final approval will rest with me. I am in close contact with the committee and the Assistant Secretary of my Department is in charge of it. Ultimately, this will have to come before the Government for final approval and I will be informed all along the line.

Mr. Sweetman

If there are snags, shall we know of them, because otherwise we will have the Minister's head?

Mr. J. Lynch

I know you will have my head anyway. That will be the outcome of all this.

Vote put and agreed to.