Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 1962

Vol. 198 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 40—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moran)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £331,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st day of March, 1963, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (No. 13 of 1946 and No. 6 of 1956), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

When I was opening the recent debate on the token Supplementary Estimate for Forestry for the current year, I informed the House that it was expected that it would be necessary to seek an additional grant for land acquisition for the year and also that supplementary provision would be needed to meet additional labour charges in the year. When dealing with Appropriations-in-Aid, I forecast that there was likely to be a shortfall in the level of receipts compared with the original Estimate allowance.

The full extent of the additional requirement has now been determined and the Supplementary Estimate before the House is for a net addition of £331,000.

It is proposed to increase the Grant-in-Aid provision for land acquisition —Subhead C.1—by £135,000. This very substantial increase is necessary in order to enable my Department to meet commitments for the purchase moneys of areas in respect of which it is expected that sales will be closed before the end of the current financial year. The uncommitted balance in the Grant-in-Aid Fund on 31st March, 1962, was £30,500 which, with the original grant of £135,000 sought for 1962/63, gave a total availability of £165,500 to meet commitments for the year. Actual payments out of the Fund up to the end of October came to £93,450, leaving a balance of £72,050 on 31st October, 1962. Having regard to the area and total purchase price of cases with the Chief State Solicitor on that date for closure of sales it was apparent that the balance available would not be sufficient to meet even the needs of the normal land acquisition programme for the remainder of the year. Making reasonable allowance for contingencies, the additional amount required to meet the expected draw on the Fund for the rest of the year in respect of the normal type of acquisition case (including nursery land) is estimated at £45,000. In addition to the normal type of acquisition case, provision must also be made for payment within the current year of the purchase moneys of nine unusually highly-priced and/or extensive areas which the Department has either agreed to buy or in respect of which agreement to purchase is likely to be reached in the near future. The total area involved in these transactions is 12,120 acres and the total purchase money is approximately £90,000. The most important case included in this group is the Charteris Estate, County Tipperary, containing 4,440 acres, the purchase price of which is £42,000. The sale in this case is expected to be concluded within the next few months. In most of the other large cases for which provision is being sought, agreement to purchase has actually been reached and title to the areas is in course of clearance. If, as expected, all of these transactions are completed before the end of the current year and if the acquisition programme in the more normal type of case follows the anticipated pattern, it can be expected that the total acquisition figure for the year will reach an all-time record level. While the distribution of acquisitions is still not as evenly-spread as we would wish, I feel sure that the House will welcome the progress that is being achieved and will agree to provide the necessary funds to enable my Department to maintain it.

For Subhead C.2 (Forest Development and Management) the additional sum sought is £131,000. An excess of £142,000 is expected on labour under heads (1), (2), (4) and (5) of the Subhead consequent on the increase in the basic wage rates of forestry workers by 10/- a week with effect from 1st April, 1962, and an increase of 2d an hour in the standard rate of bonus which took effect from mid-August, 1962. On the non-labour heads, a total excess of £18,000 is expected on the purchase of seeds, fencing wire, tools and miscellaneous items of equipment. The gross additional requirement for heads (1), (2), (4) and (5) of the Subhead C.2 is, therefore, estimated at £160,000, which falls to be reduced by savings of £29,000 expected on other parts of the subhead, giving a net requirement of £131,000.

In Subhead G (Appropriations-in-Aid) allowance has to be made for an anticipated shortfall of £75,000 in receipts from timber sales during the current year. Actual receipts from this source in 1961/62 came to £521,000, a record figure. In the framing of this year's original Estimate, it was believed that it would be possible to increase the volume of sales in the year compared with the level obtaining last year and the allowance for receipts was placed at £625,000. It is now clear that this target was over-ambitious. The level of sales in the current year has not been appreciably up on last year and, in particular, the receipts position has been adversely affected by the fact that the volume of heavier material suitable for conversion to structural timber becoming available for marketing has not increased to the extent that had been hoped. On the most optimistic possible view, receipts for timber sales for the full year are unlikely to exceed £550,000, and the allowance is being reduced to that figure in the Supplementary Estimate.

The gross additional amount required in Subheads C.1, C.2 and G is £341,000. Savings of £10,000 are expected on other parts of the Vote so that the net amount being sought in the Supplementary Estimate is £331,000.

I feel sure that Deputies will readily appreciate the need for the additional provision required in Subhead C.1 and C.2. It is unfortunate that it should be found necessary to combine the increases in these Subheads with a shortfall in Appropriations-in-Aid but I am afraid we must accept the fact that we are still at the capital investment stage in forestry and that revenue is bound to be limited and not fully predictable.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, when introducing the Main Estimate, I fore-shadowed this Supplementary Estimate and indicated the reason for it. On that occasion, which was quite recent, I was unable to give the exact figure. I have given it now, and I ask that the House accept this Supplementary Estimate without discussion.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

The House will, I think, accept that this is a pretty sizeable Supplementary Estimate which has appeared, if not unexpectedly, certainly somewhat suddenly. I understand it is necessary that this Supplementary Estimate should be passed before the Christmas Recess in order to put the funds of the Forestry Branch in order. Representing the principal Opposition Party, naturally we are not going to deny the Government the facilities for which they are looking.

While it is true that the Minister in the Main Estimate, which we discussed only a few weeks ago, referred to the fact that it was possible we would have a Supplementary Estimate, it is also true that nobody was expecting such a sizeable one. As I understand the Minister's speech, this Supplementary Estimate is necessary for three reasons. First of all, it is necessary for the purchase of land. The Minister has said the House would be glad to know that they are purchasing more land than heretofore and that they also gathered into the pool a sizeable estate in the Charteris Estate, situated in South Tipperary, and comprising over 4,000 acres.

It seems to me there must have been some administrative slip-up somewhere or other, because I think the Forestry Branch knew they were going to take over the Charteris Estate. Whether or not the negotiations were prolonged, I do not know. Perhaps the Minister will tell us when he is replying. He also stated that the other lands for which the money is required have been the subject of negotiations for a considerable time. Reading into his speech in the limited time at my disposal, it appears to me that the only estate they really were unaware they would acquire and upon which there were no active negotiations throughout the financial year concerned was the Charteris Estate. If that is the position, perhaps the Minister would indicate why this money is suddenly required at short notice and why such a heavy call on the funds has fallen in on the lands concerned. Have these other lands been the subject of prolonged negotiations or are they also, shall we say, snap sales like the Charteris Estate?

Everyone is happy to see the Forestry Division acquiring land. I have always been one who has been trying, as far as I can as a public representative, to hurry them up in acquiring land because there are inexhaustible delays and frustrations endured by anyone who wants to dispose of land to the Forestry Branch. Beyond these few queries, I shall leave the matter of the purchase of land.

With regard to labour costs, I quite appreciate that the Estimate could not possibly meet the labour charges as it was not possible to foresee what the charges would be. I have no other comment to make on that.

With reference to the third item, the sales of timber, I take it that the Forestry Branch has a considerable amount of timber under its jurisdiction. I take it that there must be some sort of over-all survey from time to time, not only a regional survey but seasonal surveys as well. Those, therefore, who administer the Division must have some idea of the amount of timber and the quality of the timber which will come up for sale.

The Minister, in his opening speech, explains that the receipts have fallen far short of what was anticipated. That is quite reasonable, but he also says that the heavier type of timber is not available as expected. That, to me, indicates there has not been a hard and fast survey of the timber available for sale by the Forestry Division and it may be that the price for timber and the demand for timber is not as good as it was before.

That, of course, brings me back to the question of the marketing of timber. I do not think we have any proper marketing system at all and if the largest landowners have had difficulty in disposing of timber at an economic price, surely the private individual who is trying to sell timber must meet with considerable difficulties? I am informed by those who are in the private timber business that it is a very frustrating trade, that it has been going through a lean period lately.

I wonder if the State has found that to be the case. The Minister might indicate if his Department have had difficulty in selling timber at economic prices. He might indicate, too, what the marketing conditions are likely to be in the foreseeable future and further, whether he has made any arrangements for timber marketing because the demand for timber, taking Europe as a whole, is considerable. Europe is in short supply of timber, as I indicated in the figures I gave, and for that reason I should like to know if the question of marketing has been seriously considered, if there is any specialised section within the Division dealing with this problem or whether the Division has any plans for such a section. We on this side of the House accept this Estimate with some reserve.

Mr. Corish

The Labour Party's view is that money invested in forestry is well invested and we have no hesitation in giving full approval for the money the Minister asks for here. In fairness to the Minister, he did give us a warning earlier that he would be coming to the House for a supplementary sum. I think I am right in assuming that this does not mean any increase in employment because the bulk of the money is to meet the increase of ten shillings per week in wages and of twopence an hour in the standard rate of bonus.

The money is being provided here to meet those additional expenses, if I interpreted the Minister properly. I know it is rather late in the night and I do not expect the Minister to deal fully with the whole question of forestry, but I would impress upon him the necessity to try to have employment in forestry made an all-the-year-round effort. There is too much casual work in forestry at the moment. I know many people have continuous employment but it is frustrating for men to be laid off for two, three, or four months each year. If the Minister could evolve a system whereby there would be more continuity of work in forestry, he would be making a valuable contribution to employment in rural districts.

We note that the bulk of the money for acquisition is in respect of one or two areas and I would remind the Minister that there is tremendous dissatisfaction over the price that is sometimes offered by the Division for land for forestry purposes. I do not know whether there is any system of arbitration in this matter. Perhaps the Minister would say whether or not there is a system of arbitration for determining the price of land or, if there is not, whether he has ever considered the appointment of an arbitrator so that people will feel at least that they are getting a reasonable price for land offered for forestry. Of course such land cannot be of any great value but landowners cannot be blamed for expressing dissatisfaction when they see the measly amounts per acre offered. If there was a system of arbitration by which they could have their cases dealt with, there would be much more satisfaction.

The Minister, in the concluding portion of his speech, gave what I thought to be the reasons for the decline in receipts from timber but I do not think he explained fully why such a fall has come about. He says that the volume of heavier material suitable for conversion into structural timber has not increased to the extent that had been hoped. I wonder if that is the main reason or if there is anything else the Minister can tell us about it. For the reasons I outlined at the beginning, we in the Labour Party give our approval to this Estimate.

Mr. Moran

I am grateful to the Deputies who have spoken for giving me this Estimate and in so far as I can, briefly, I shall elaborate somewhat on the figures I have given and the reasons for the sharp fall in income. I should like to say to Deputy Esmonde that the Charteris Estate was not on the market when the original Estimate was prepared. It was one of the big estates we had to get after and it is one of the things that will arise from time to time if we are to get on with the business of getting such land for forestry purposes.

There is another estate, but I do not wish to identify it here tonight because the contract has not yet been completed, though we have, I believe, reached agreement. I think that estate will be coming in in about a month. That also is a very substantial estate constisting of more than 5,000 acres and I believe the cost will be something in the region of £50,000. As I said, because the contract has not been signed I feel I should not identity that estate, but I want to assure the House I am confident that my Department will have acquired this very large estate for forestry before the year is out. That accounts for another £50,000 of the additional amount I am seeking here which, together with the figures I have given for increases in labour costs, adds up to the £331,000 that I have asked the House to give in this Supplementary Estimate.

On the question of employment raised by Deputy Corish, may I say the very fact that in this year we are going after an even higher figure of acquisition than last year, which was an all-time record, must lead to more employment in forestry? I have already pointed out that my Department are anxious to provide whole-time employment for workers engaged in forestry. It is because of the build up throughout the country that it is so difficult to plan programmes so as to ensure that continuous employment will follow.

I have stated on many occasions that in order to plant properly ahead and fully to utilise our labour force, at our present planting rate of 25,000 acres a year, we would need a reserve of up to 50,000 acres a year. The build-up, because of our history in forestry, has been scattered in small areas throughout the country. Nobody appreciates more than the Forestry Division the fact that, when workers are engaged in forestry work for nine or ten months or for a year or two years, it is quite natural that they acquire certain skills and that they are more efficient than raw workers coming in. Our people, from an economic point of view, would be most anxious to keep these men fully engaged if the work and the plantable reserve were there for them in their own districts or within striking distance of their districts.

Where there is other work in the vicinity of a forest, where men worked and had been left off, we try to employ them in the other districts. Rural Deputies will know of certain labour difficulties encountered in these districts. With the build-up of forestry at the present rate, we can look forward to a period of more stabilisation of our labour force engaged in forestry. The pattern will become more and more a pattern of the vast majority of the labour force being permanently employed on forestry. With new sections coming in, perhaps for a short period a number of temporary forestry workers will be employed.

The best answer I can give to the question about the price of land is that until now about 99 per cent. of the land acquired by the Forestry Division has been acquired on a voluntary basis. That means that the vendor was satisfied with his deal and we were satisfied with the deal.

Mr. Corish

I know the Minister would be satisfied but I do not think it would be true to say that the 99 per cent. were absolutely satisfied.

Mr. Moran

They were free agents. They sold their land to the Forestry Division. I do not know that anybody who sells anything is satisfied. In my county, a man, going home from a fair, met a neighbour on the road. The neighbour asked him if he had sold his cow and he said he had. The neighbour asked him if he got what he expected and he replied that he did not but that he did not expect that he would. It is the same position with a man selling land to the Forestry Division. While he may not have got what he expected, a country man, generally speaking, does not want any advice as to when he should or should not sell.

It is true that in the coming year there will be a number of compulsory acquisitions which raise a different question. In that instance, there will be a procedure similar to the Land Commission procedure. If the vendor is dissatisfied with the price offered by my Department, he can appeal in respect of it, call evidence and the court will decide on a proper price.

Mr. Corish

Has the Minister any information as to, say, the amount of land that is not offered or sold to the Forestry Division, because there cannot be an agreement on price?

Mr. Moran

No, I have not that figure.

Mr. Corish

Do many refuse to sell?

Mr. Moran

Very, very few. In the vast majority of cases, price has not been a stumbling block. That has been our experience. Last year, we acquired voluntarily, by purchase, 31,793 acres. I feel confident that this year we shall beat that record figure of acquisition by voluntary action. I think that is the best indication we could give the House that the system as we have it and the prices we are paying are satisfactory for the type of land we are getting. The House will appreciate that most of this is marginal land. To call it land is a misnomer. A lot of it is snipe grassland and unplantable land with big skelps of rock which come into the deal. Averaging out an acre, taking a stretch of 800 or 1,000 acres, they never take into account that perhaps 300 or 400 acres of that land is land on which a goat could not live. It might be on the top of a mountain.

Mr. Corish

You could find copper there.

Mr. Moran

Perhaps some future Minister for Lands will find himself sitting on a bonanza; I hope that is so.

Deputy Esmonde spoke about the difficulty of marketing. There has not been difficulty about marketing in the sense that the Deputy seemed to think. While it was estimated by my Department that they would be able to get out, between mature timber and other types of timber, an amount that would bring in some £625,000, it fell short by £75,000, mainly because they were not able to get out the mature timber.

It is true, as Deputy Esmonde thought, that an exact survey and estimate was not made throughout the different forests. It started only in the past couple of years. That job has been undertaken and it is now practically ready. The position up to the moment has been that our people did not know precisely the exact volume in different stands. The result was that while it was anticipated that this amount of mature timber could be got out of certain forests, it did not prove so when they tried to get out the necessary amount of timber.

The receipts have been up. They were up last year and they have been up again this year. Although they have not reached the amount anticipated, a record amount of timber was sold by the Forestry Division during this year. It it expected that, when this survey to which I have referred is completed and the position is assessed, it will be possible for my people to estimate with greater accuracy what may be available for the market in any specific year. As I told the House on the main Estimate, it will be possible for the Forestry Division to indicate to private enterprice the approximate output for the years ahead so that they, in their sphere of business, will be able to deal with it.

Again I express my appreciation to the main Opposition Party and the Labour Party for the manner in which they have received this Estimate.

Vote put and agreed to.

Vote 40 and the other Votes already agreed to by the Committee reported and agreed to.