Before I call on Deputy Donegan, might I point out that if the House intends to divide on this question, the question must be put before 10.30?
Business of Dáil.
We do not intend to divide on it.
I had assumed the debate on the motion on the Adjournment would go on until 11 p.m. in any case.
The debate may go on until 11 p.m. but it is then taken as unopposed business. There can be no division.
If anybody is speaking, it can go on tomorrow?
Having regard to Standing Orders, the motion will lapse at 11 p.m. when the Dáil must adjourn.
I think the Government intended last week to put no limit on the time for discussion.
The position, as I understand it, is that nobody asked the Government for time for a discussion. I offered, following a special notice question by the Leader of the Opposition last week, to move the adjournment of the House today to permit a discussion of it. Nobody had pressed me to give time and there was no motion submitted for consideration of the Dáil. Therefore, I adopted the device of offering this motion today.
That is patently incorrect from the record. It is perfectly clear on the record that the Leader of the Opposition said it was desirable that the matter should be debated in the House and the Taoiseach then, as I say, suggested this method, that he would make a statement.
The Leader of the Fine Gael Party asked me a question as to when I thought I could make a statement on the situation.
That is right.
I made a statement then but indicated that the circumstances were such as to make it impossible to give final definitions of policy which I thought the Deputy had in mind. In my reply to his question, I offered to move the adjournment of the House today to permit a discussion of it, if that was desired. It was then indicated that that was desired and I consequently moved the adjournment. Obviously, this is the type of debate that could go on forever unless some restraint were put on it. What I suggested to the Parliamentary Secretary that he might convey to the Opposition was that we would order Government Business tomorrow—that is, because I suppose some of us will be absent anyway—and to the extent to which we can complete that business, if time permits on Thursday, I will be prepared to move the adjournment on Thursday.
And anybody who has spoken can speak again.
Presumably you could get that going on forever for the whole of the rest of the year. I think we could agree that we would finish this on Thursday, it being understood that what we are talking about is a very fluid situation which may throw up something which will require to be debated by the Dáil in connection with a positive proposal at any time during the next month or two.
May I put on record that not merely my understanding but what was clearly agreed is that there would be no limit on this debate? That was clearly agreed with the Taoiseach while I stood here and he sat in his seat.
So far as today was concerned only.
No; after the division on the last occasion. I went further to the Parliamentary Secretary standing outside behind the Chair. I stated, and made it quite clear, that as far as we were concerned we would not consent under any circumstances to any member of this House, on a subject of this importance, being prevented from speaking. I went further and I explained that, in my view, the position was that this motion fell tonight and that it would be brought on again tomorrow.
No.
I made that clear.
There was no suggestion of that made to me.
Every suggestion— a categorical statement of that by me, both to the Taoiseach and his Parliamentary Secretary.
I have no recollection of that statement being made to me.
And to the Whip's Office, on several occasions.
The first time I heard any suggestion of this business being on today was at 6 o'clock this evening.
That is untrue.
Take my word.
The Taoiseach should know it was untrue if he knew what was happening. Subsequently, other events transpired and it was put, and properly put, to me that because of circumstances tomorrow in which the Taoiseach would not be available in this House, it was undesirable to have this debate continued tomorrow in his absence and unfair to him. I readily concurred and agreed that other Public Business could be ordered, with our consent, tomorrow and that this debate would be continued on Thursday. That is undoubtedly true and can be verified from all sources.
I have no objection to giving whatever time is available on Thursday, to moving the motion at the earliest possible time on Thursday, to the debate being continued on Thursday, but I would not agree to its going on week after week.
References have been made by Deputy Sweetman to discussions with the Whip's Office. There are three Whips, as far as I know, representing all the main Parties, and there has been no discussion as far as we are concerned on this point. Any arrangement made was made across the floor of the House. Maybe I misunderstood it but I am afraid I thought what the Taoiseach has now said, that the adjournment would be moved for the debate today and that the debate would conclude tonight. That was my impression of it. I did not discuss it with anybody.
Can we not get a compromise, in any case, about Thursday?
We are certainly going on with Government Business tomorrow, for obvious reasons. I do not know how we stand but I am certainly agreeable, subject to completing any details of the business to be carried over tomorrow, to give the balance of the time on Thursday for the continuation of this debate by moving a motion for the adjournment at the appropriate time.
What business will be ordered?
I cannot say that. There is not a great deal of business and I am sure it could be disposed of.
Until what time will this debate go on?
That is a matter for the Chair. However, precedent establishes that it goes on until 11 o'clock.
That was my understanding, unless the House wants to decide the matter up to 10.30 p.m.
I feel bound to say here that I have no recollection of the Opposition Chief Whip pressing for any limitation whatever. I would be sorry to dishonour it. I have no recollection of his pressing me for any limitation or extension of the time until tonight.
Such a statement by the present Chief Whip of Fianna Fáil would never have been made in the time of his predecessor. I am afraid in future I shall have to get these things in writing, which will be very unpleasant for everybody.
I have no recollection.
I think the Parliamentary Secretary ought to jog it a bit.