Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 1963

Vol. 200 No. 1

Business of Dáil: Motion.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. J. Brennan)

I move:

That notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in Standing Orders:—

(i) Business today and tomorrow shall be confined to Questions, formal business and two motions (and amendments thereto) regarding the Government's White Paper entitled Closing the Gap;

(ii) The seconder of the motion in the name of Deputy Dillon shall reserve his speech until a later stage of the debate, and a Member supporting the motion in the names of Deputy Corish and others, and the Taoiseach, in that order, shall then be called on by the Chair to speak;

(iii) The mover of the motion in the name of Deputy Dillon or such other Member as the mover may authorise shall be called on by the Chair to speak not later than 3.45 p.m. tomorrow and a Member supporting the motion in the names of Deputy Corish and others shall be called on to speak not later than 4.15 p.m.; and

(iv) The Debate on the motions (and amendments thereto) if not previously brought to a conclusion shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.45 p.m. tomorrow by putting from the Chair forthwith and successively the Questions necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion."

Mr. Corish

Would the Ceann Comhairle say in what order the Votes will be taken on these motions and the amendments?

An Ceann Comhairle

First of all, the amendments to Deputy Dillon's motion, namely, Deputy Dunne's amendment and then Deputy McQuillan's and Deputy Browne's amendment.

Mr. Tully

That is not what was agreed on by the Whips.

The Taoiseach

I think that is the order of voting.

Mr. Corish

I am concerned with the voting on the amendments.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dunne's amendment will be voted on first, and then Deputy McQuillan's and Deputy Browne's.

Mr. Norton

When do we vote on the Labour motion?

An Ceann Comhairle

At the end of proceedings on this motion.

The Taoiseach

There will be separate votes.

Mr. Corish

I am concerned about the order of voting.

Mr. S. Dunne

Can we talk about No. 5?

Mr. Corish

That is what we are talking about.

Mr. S. Dunne

The Deputy is talking about something else.

Mr. Norton

The Labour Party's motion is specifically designed to deal with the problem arising from the White Paper and it pinpoints views on that. Will we have an opportunity of having a distinctive vote on that motion?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Labour Party motion?

Mr. Norton

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, of course.

Mr. S. Dunne

On the motion, as far as the ordinary members of this House can judge, this item on today's Order Paper represents one further incursion on the rights and privileges of members. The ordinary Standing Orders of the House, as I understand them, provide that where an amendment is being put to a motion, the amendment should be taken immediately after the motion has been proposed and seconded. By virtue of No. 5 on to-day's Order Paper, the rules are being changed. The rules have been changed before to the disadvantage of the private Independent Member and here is another example of how the Parties per se are changing the rules when the game is not going to their liking. I suggest to the Taoiseach, in case it has not occurred to him, that item No. 5 is in derogation of and detrimental to the ordinary rights and privileges of the members of the House who, it must be remembered, are elected not as members of Parties but legally and constitutionally elected as representatives of the constituencies and the people for whom they stand. If they choose to organise themselves into groups or Parties after the election, that is another matter, but the primary thing that should be guarded, in my view, is the right of the individual Deputy under Standing Orders.

Here we have a further example— which no doubt will be carried by the acquiescent and quiescent majorities of the House, now that it has been decided to select a few on various sides—of how rights are being taken away from individual Deputies. The position is that the discussion on my amendment should follow discussion on Deputy Dillon's motion. I may say that I have no wish to precede the Taoiseach in these matters, but I do say that I have a right prior to others who have been granted the right of discussion before me.

Mr. Sherwin

On the two days debate on the Common Market, eight Deputies spoke and monopolised the whole debate. I hope that eight people out of the 144 of us are not going to monopolise the debate again because we are here to say something and not listen to hot air in 90 per cent. of the cases. I would appeal to you, Sir, to ask members not to spend hours talking.

The Taoiseach

This motion which has been agreed by the Parties is an attempt to regulate a discussion on two motions and two amendments simultaneously and it does not deprive Deputy Dunne of any rights at all.

Mr. McQuillan

The only place where an amendment is mentioned is in paragraph (4) and in paragraph (2) provision is made for the seconder of the motion put down by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party but I would support Deputy Dunne on the point that it should be clarified at this stage. When the main motion is moved, is it not the usual procedure to allow the amendment to the main motion to be moved, after the first speaker on the main motion?

The Taoiseach

We are trying to discuss two motions simultaneously— that is the point.

Mr. McQuillan

At what stage is the amendment to the motion allowed to be moved? When is the mover to put it?

An Ceann Comhairle

When the motion is moved.

Mr. McQuillan

I take it that as soon as Deputy Dillon moves his motion, then Deputy Dunne is entitled to move his amendment and that when he has——

An Ceann Comhairle

I said after the motion is moved.

The Taoiseach

I take it that Deputy Dunne or other Deputies can move at any time during the course of the discussion.

Mr. McQuillan

The Taoiseach will recall that last week the Ceann Comhairle said it would be unprecedented to move an amendment at a later stage, that it should be moved——

The Taoiseach

Does it make any difference?

An Ceann Comhairle

I said "after".

Mr. Sweetman

I think No. 3 is the reverse of what was agreed on last week but we do not raise any point about it.

Dr. Browne

You ruled last week, Sir, that the normal procedure was that the amendment would be moved after the motion had been seconded. Is that not to happen today?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the motion to the House.

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. McQuillan

The Taoiseach has given one interpretation of what is to take place and the Chair has given another. The Taoiseach has said "any time during the debate" and I would like your ruling on that, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have said "after the motion has been moved and seconded."

Mr. Norton

We are now at an important stage. Last week, a motion was moved to the effect that certain members of the Garda Síochána should have their rent allowance calculated for pension purposes and an amendment was submitted. The motion was moved, seconded and discussed and some little time after, the Labour Party sought to move an amendment to it, the amendment having been previously inserted on the Order Paper. It was ruled then that you must move the amendment immediately after the motion so moved or you could not move it at all. Then Deputy Corish was denied the opportunity of moving the already submitted amendment because it was not moved on the heels of the motion which was first moved. Now the Taoiseach says you can move an amendment any time. The Ceann Comhairle has just ruled that you may move an amendment after the motion but does not say when. There was one law last week and another this week.

The Taoiseach

We are proposing to adopt a special procedure for this debate to facilitate the general discussion of two motions and two amendments. I suggest for this debate, without making any general rule at all, that the amendments can be moved at any time. We know they will be moved anyway.

Mr. Norton

There was rough justice last week.

Mr. McQuillan

When the Ceann Comhairle states the amendment may be moved after the motion, we all know that but will he state at what stage?

Dr. Browne

May I remind the Ceann Comhairle that last week he said after the motion had been moved, which means immediately after the motion had been moved?

An Ceann Comhairle

In the ordinary way, the procedure is that the amendment is moved immediately after the motion has been moved and seconded but the present is a peculiar situation in which there is a motion to obtain the special permission of the House to allow speakers to intervene before the amendment is moved.

Mr. McQuillan

Surely there can be no objection to the procedure which has been adopted at all stages, that the amendment to a motion is moved immediately after the motion?

The Taoiseach

Moved without a speech?

Mr. McQuillan

No, when the mover has spoken.

Mr. Tully

Special arrangements have been made for this debate and I do not think there can be any difficulty if they are adopted.

Mr. Dunne

You are still taking away the rights of individual Deputies.