The amendment, as set out, gives authority to the Minister to divide certain areas under the ward system. I would say, without intending to be hurtful, that when the Minister was in swaddling clothes, we had in the city of Limerick a system of election under the ward system and at that time the city was divided into a number of areas or wards. While the city of Limerick was nothing like its present size or population we had at that time 40 members on the City Council. It was then decided that this was an unwieldy situation which led to a lot of skullduggery and the usual things that occurred in local authority and public matters, and somebody, in a saner moment, decided the city of Limerick should be left in one complete unit. Instead of 40 members we elected 17 to the City Council. The first four elected at that time were privileged by being named aldermen of the city.
Limerick, like many other centres, is changing and taking on a complexion more in keeping with public welfare and with the progress of the area. We are building vast schemes of houses, though, perhaps, not as quickly or in great numbers as the Minister's standards require—he certainly fired some abusive castigations on us on his departure to America recently to the effect that our speed or movement was not up to the standard he would wish to see. However, Limerick is in a state of flux at the moment. Numbers of parishes are being divided up by the Bishop who takes cognizance of building that is going on in particular parishes to the detriment of the oldestablished parishes in the city.
The whole situation in Limerick is changing. If the Minister thinks he can, without first consulting members of Limerick City Council, divide the city into wards and divisions—let him put it on a parish basis and there are something like seven or eight parishes in the city: we have 17 city members in the City Council—I do not know how he is going to divide it in 1963 and think of Limerick as it will be in 1965, 1966 or 1970. I suppose his guess is better and more realistic than mine, although I was bred, born and raised in Limerick.
Some time ago, in 1961 or 1960, I think, when the Minister made this proposal, it was followed up in Limerick City Council by a colleague of the Minister, the present Parliamentary Secretary. The members of the council decided again this division. Despite what the Minister says regarding the number of runners declared for the Cork body, I think this is a good thing. It would be a sad state of affairs if we did not have enough runners to fill the seats that are vacant in any council, urban, borough or county. Competition is good and we all welcome it. On 4th August, if my memory serves me well—I have not got my notes here—we discussed this matter in Limerick City Council and, as a result, the present Parliamentary Secretary who was then a member of the council withdrew his proposal to divide the city into wards or areas because on that occasion we and the members of his own Party were completely against the suggestion. If my memory is correct, the Minister was informed of this by our city manager and the Minister replied by referring to a statement he made at the General Council of County Councils viewing with abhorrence the big number of contestants and runners for seats on Limerick and Cork Corporations.
The Minister is overlooking one significant fact and I shall bring his memory up to more recent times. Last Wednesday, we had about 40 runners in the Lincoln and on last Saturday something like 46 runners in the Grand National. I am speaking completely from memory but I think I am not mistaken when I say that the people of Ireland were not so illiterate that they could not discern one runner from another. Neither have the people of Limerick been so cursed with illiteracy as not to be able to discern one runner from another when the local election comes round.
I do not know what is in the Minister's mind regarding Limerick but I have a fairly good idea. We are a discerning people and know what we want and how to get it. If Limerick people want a man who lives in Garryowen or Thomondgate—I am sure these names are familiar to the Minister and his officials—they will take him and the people from Ballinacurra, two miles away, will take that man also if they think he is worthwhile. But Limerick is changing at the moment. The City Council are building houses by the hundred and have schemes arranged for the next 700 or 800 or, perhaps, 1,000 houses. If the Minister divides the city up into 17 seats and gives us two or three or four areas, he would want to be a bit of a Mandrake or a juggler to balance one area against another. I should not like to take his chance, knowing Limerick as I do. If the Minister says: "You will elect three members or two members in this area"—I suppose it all depends on the political strength of the area—and we then come along as the City Council and erect 200 or 300 houses in that area which will mean at least three votes per house, where is the Minister in his calculations?
Without being hurtful, I want to impress on the Minister that he is biting off more than anybody can chew. We are only in the growing stages in Limerick city and nobody knows what the position of the city will be in ten years time, particularly having regard to the new city being created at Shannon. Whether that will have urban, borough or county borough status, nobody knows. Even the Minister does not know. That situation will have to be met, whatever charter the Shannon area will have. We are alert in Limerick to what is happening beside us. Yet we find the Minister saying: "I can", "I may" and "I will" and "I shall divide Limerick into an area or areas and give these people areas and they will select their own men in these areas."
I fought three city elections in Limerick. I know what it is. Thanks be to God, I do not know what it is to be defeated in Limerick but there were many defeated. We have at all times had two and three times as many runners as we had places in the City Council. That is a very healthy situation and a very good thing. It means that somebody is taking an interest.
I want to impress on the Minister the situation with regard to this city of mine. We members, who were elected by the people of Limerick, do not want or desire the situation as envisaged by the Minister. We want to leave Limerick until such time as Limerick has settled down, until we see exactly the final picture where this city is concerned. At the present time, we do not know that. If we do not know it—we who live there—the Minister—who works in Dublin—can have no notion and no possible idea of what situation or what picture will be presented within the next five or ten years by this city.
I would impress on and appeal to the Minister at this stage with regard to the division of Limerick. The number of spoiled votes in the Limerick election should be a barometer. Thanks be to God, we are devoid of illiteracy in Limerick. We know what we want and we can learn and read and think, which is allimportant. We can select our men or women in Limerick and let them be from any particular area.
Limerick is a small town at the moment. It is just an enlarged town, if you like—a good provincial town. We are all more or less neighbours in our city and everybody knows everybody else. If the Minister is to carry out this idea of his at this stage, let me go on record as saying here today that within a shorter time than the Minister predicts, we will be faced with a situation in Limerick in which we shall have to review the whole situation because of our present building scheme, with approximately 1,000 houses on our stocks. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously before he makes any decision the views of the elected members of Limerick who are the voice of the citizen and who speak on behalf of the citizens.
Just a short time after the Minister's statement to the General Council of County Councils here in Dublin, when this matter was introduced in our council by a colleague of the Minister —his Party disagreed with the suggestion—we decided there and then that Limerick was not fit to be warded, zoned or divided into areas, as the case may be. I am asking the Minister now to consider seriously the position of Limerick. Maybe Cork is a completely different situation and certainly Dublin is, but, where Limerick is concerned, and maybe Waterford—I would imagine Waterford would come into the same category as Limerick— there is no necessity for this division.
I would ask the Minister, before he takes any step in this direction, to leave this matter to the local authority and let a decision be reached there. Whether or not it be a two-thirds majority, I do not mind— his decision is a matter for himself. Certainly, before any steps are taken by the Minister or his Department in this matter, he should consult the elected members of the City Council.