Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Apr 1963

Vol. 201 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Posts and Telegraphs (resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Estimate be referred back for re-consideration.—(Deputy Crotty.)

Mr. Tully

I want again to refer to the question of the supply of telephones and to the replies given by the Minister as to why there were such long delays in certain areas. I know that there are technical difficulties and the Minister just cannot supply telephones when and where they are wanted immediately, although at times it appears that he can. I would ask him to try to do two things. First of all, where phones have been abandoned for one reason or another, where people have ceased to use the telephone and decided to discontinue the service, without the possibility of its being resumed, would he arrange to allocate the lines to somebody who has been waiting for a considerable time in the area? Secondly, if there are lines available in certain areas, surely it should be possible to allocate those lines with a minimum of delay? The question of the non-availability of technical people should not arise.

I have in mind areas such as the area in which I live where, although an underground cable has been laid recently, it appears as if the connections are slow and are going to be slow. Perhaps the Minister would see if he could expedite connection in places like that. I do not expect the Minister to work miracles but if he had the matter investigated, it might be possible to have the service connected for people who have been waiting a considerable time.

Let me refer for a moment to the question of subpostmen and the method of appointment. I raised this matter last year with the Minister. When a vacancy occurs for an auxiliary postman and there is a temporary appointment made, it is usually a person who has done the job before or who is considered suitable who is appointed. If he comes from the labour exchange, usually he is a person with substantial family commitments. Would the Minister arrange that, unless there are very strong reasons for not doing so, if that person applies for the permanent post, he will be appointed? It does look bad, if somebody has been acting as auxiliary or temporary postman for a number of months, that somebody else, with perhaps fewer family commitments or perhaps in similar circumstances, should be appointed. The people who talk about these things will say it was because the man who was doing the job was not satisfactory. Very often, it is found that reference is made to the character of the unfortunate man who had been carrying out the work. For that reason, the Minister should be very careful about dispensing with the services of a person who has been engaged in an acting capacity and appointing somebody who comes in out of the blue.

There has been a ban in operation over a number of years on the use of motorised bicycles or motorcycles by postmen in country places. This is the year 1963 and it is time that ban was removed. If a postman finds it convenient to use a scooter or autocycle, the Post Office should have no objection. I do not know the reason for the imposition of the ban originally but as far as I am aware, it has not been removed. I would ask the Minister to apply a little common sense to that matter, which should solve it without any trouble.

With regard to Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann, practically everybody in the country is disappointed as a result of the continuance of the strike by newsmen and the consequent lack of news programmes. The people down the country appreciated the news programmes on Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann. The strike should not be allowed to continue for one minute longer than is necessary. While the Minister has stated here that he has no responsibility for the matter, I am sure he appreciates that continuance of the strike must, of necessity, mean a complete close down of the services.

The Minister enunciated a very good trade union principle a few moments ago on the responsibility of trade unionists in this matter. It is not possible to continue the position that a small group are in dispute while everybody else is working, particularly, as appears to be the case now, when an effort is being made here and there to move in on news time and to issue under one heading or another an item which up to now would have been regarded as a news item. I am quite sure we do not want to see such things happening. We do not want to see our services damaged. We would like to see them improved. I would appeal to the Minister to do everything he can to see that justice is done to the newsmen on Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann who are on strike.

The Minister must know a great deal more about this matter than anybody else here knows. It is his job to know these things. He must appreciate that the men there have not been getting a fair deal and that he must do something about it quickly. We do not want the strike to drag on into Holy Week, Easter Week and then into the summer. That would do irreparable harm.

Since all strikes must be settled eventually by discussion, it is only sensible that every effort should be made to have this strike settled at the earliest possible time. If the Minister intervenes at this stage, he will get nothing but the assistance and thanks of everybody concerned. He should make an extra effort to have the matter dealt with. We know that the Minister can write off the matter by saying that it has nothing to do with him, that it is a matter for Telefís Éireann or Radio Éireann. It was a bad day when this House decided to put these powers directly into the hands of outsiders. The responsibility should rest with a Minister. Perhaps in the not too far distant future that position will have to be restored.

As far as programmes are concerned, Telefís Éireann are doing quite well. I said last year that I considered that the Authority were making a great effort. I believe they are continuing to make a great effort. Coverage of outdoor events should be increased. One of the finest efforts made by Telefís Éireann is in regard to the coverage of outside sports events. There should be increased coverage of these events, wherever possible. I do not know whether the cost is prohibitive but I would appeal for increased coverage of outdoor events. Canned programmes can be obtained from the other stations, if viewers want to see them.

The Irish programmes, including Irish dancing and Irish music, have been very well received and very well put over. I would suggest that a certain type of play supposedly depicting Irish life should not be broadcast or televised. The tinkers, the tramps of the road, do not carry a deceased relative around in a sack for weeks until they reach their place of origin where they want to bury her. If programmes such as that were broadcast or televised by other stations, there would be a howl of protest inside and outside this House.

Mr. Dillon

What programme showed that interesting spectacle?

Mr. Tully

Telefís Éireann showed it on St. Patrick's night. I think I have said enough about that. The Minister knows to what I am referring.

Mr. Hilliard

A play.

Mr. Tully

It was a shocking example. I do not know what the Minister would call it. I do not think it would coincide with my description of it.

Mr. Dillon

What is the name of the play?

Mr. Tully

"Paddy the Packer". It certainly did nothing to enhance the reputation of the station. Irrespective of who writes them or who is responsible for them, the less of such things we see the better it will be for Telefís Éireann.

Reference has been made to interference with reception of television and radio programmes. Interference is a very annoying matter. Could the Minister say if it is intended to introduce legislation to deal with interference? In the present situation anybody who wants to be awkward can ruin a programme for his neighbours simply by letting the motor of a van or motorcycle or old car run while it is parked outside a house for half an hour while the programme is on. Then there are people who use all sorts of electrical machinery, defective machinery, obviously, because it upsets the viewing of various programmes. I am not blaming the Minister for this. I believe that eventually something will be done. The sooner the matter is attended to, the better it will be for all concerned.

Reference has been made to interference with reception of radio programmes by the use of television sets. This matter should be taken up with the manufacturers of television sets. There has been considerable comment by people who have not got television sets that the reception of radio programmes has been badly interfered with by the use of television sets in the neighbourhood.

There is one other matter I mentioned last year and about which the Minister said he could not do anything. I would appeal to him to reconsider the matter. I refer to the question of children's allowances paid to certain officials of his staff. The Minister knows the matter I have in mind. When certain of his staff are recruited in a certain way they get children's allowances at a certain rate whereas persons promoted from the ranks who, apparently, are regarded as a different race, are paid the allowances at a lower rate. I would ask the Minister to have another look at it because I believe that in common justice what applies to one should apply to all.

Mr. Geoghegan

I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister and his Department on this document which we have received relating to this Estimate. There are a few comments I should like to make while the Estimate is going through the House.

More use should be made of the Irish language on Telefís Éireann. There should be more Irish programmes and more Irish language programmes than there are at present for the people of the country.

The work in the telephone service in general is very heavy. It is a heavy burden to have to try to cope with the number of applications. I know of one area where there is only one main line and you may have to wait for an hour, or an hour and three-quarters, for a telephone call to Dublin or even a few miles away. That question will have to be gone into, and I think that an even distribution of main lines per population in an area would be a good idea.

Some time ago, the Department called in some rural unestablished postmen to sit for an examination. I wonder if anything could be done by the Department for those men, some of whom have given 20, 25, 30 or 35 years' service? It is pretty late now to ask them to sit for examination. Naturally, they left school a good many years ago, and they cannot compete, or be expected to compete, at this stage, with younger men. Can anything be done to establish them, because they have given faithful service to the Post Office? They worked well and they should be established and get some pension as a recognition of their service.

The position in regard to telephone kiosks in small towns should be investigated. A farmer may need to get in touch with a vet at night when the post office has closed down, and people with private phones have gone to bed. If there were telephone kiosks in the small towns, they would be able to contact the vet and perhaps save the life of a beast, or even contact a doctor and perhaps save the life of a human being.

Telephonists in general should be congratulated. They have a very tough and hard time. They are very courteous and they try to help in every way. They have a very difficult job and they should be congratulated. The telephonists in this House are most helpful and courteous.

In certain areas, the number of hours per day the postman works are very low. They are temporary men and they just get a few hours' work. I know one area where there has been a change of postman five or six times in the past three or four months. The hours are low but the mileage is long. I wonder could we get a certain standard? I wonder could we say that the postmen should get a fairly decent wage per week, irrespective of the number of hours worked, so long as the journey was long, so that the men would not be disgruntled and change their jobs?

Some time ago, a postman in my area asked for a route test. Strangely enough, the day the route was tested, he was sitting for an examination to become established. I think his route should not have been tested the day he was sitting for an examination. In that case, I think his route should be retested because it looks as if the Department were trying to take advantage of him. Perhaps they were not, but that is the way it happened.

On the question of minimum charges for telephone calls, whatever the distance the charge is still 1/3d if the call has to be routed, but if it is a direct line, the charge is 3d. I think that if the call has to be re-routed, the charge should still be 3d.

I agree with Deputy Tully's remarks about uniforms for postmen. Something should be done in the very near future to provide a better type of cloth, something which would be hard-wearing and would look better. If the present uniform gets one shower of rain, it looks baggy, and does not last.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Let me deal, first of all, with the youngest branch of the Minister's Department, television. We have now had 12 months' experience of Telefís Éireann. I want to deal primarily with the reception of television in the State. Certain areas have perfect reception; other areas have poor reception; and in some areas there is no reception whatever.

Speaking on this Estimate last year, I recommended to the Minister that the solution of the problem of various types of reception was the installation of piped television. I advocated piped television, and I explained to the House and the Minister the advantage it would be: how much cheaper it would be for licence holders; that we would have a standard and uniform type of reception; and less outlay in the Department in the provision of piped television by private concerns.

The Minister pointed out to me at that time that while he himself was sympathetic towards the idea of piped television, there would be legal difficulties in the matter. I explained that it would not take very long to pass an Act of the Oireachtas to get over the legal difficulties and in fairness to the Minister, he said he would do his best to try to get over them. I presumed by that he meant he would do his best to introduce legislation which would make piped television possible in the State. It would do away with the unsightly aerials in rural and urban Ireland, and it would make the amenity of television available to every house-holder in the State. There would be a choice of station by plugging in, and there would be guaranteed reception from all stations.

In the most isolated parts of Northern Scotland, there is perfect reception from Independent Television and the BBC through piped television and I understand that is achieved without any extra outlay. It is unfair of the Minister, if he proposes legislation to introduce piped television, that he should put the citizens to the expense of erecting television aerials. He should come straight out and tell us now if there is any possibility of the introduction of piped television. He is aware that a number of commercial concerns have undertaken to wire up every town and village in the State at their own expense if piped television is introduced. They have also undertaken to pay the licence fee for any person who wishes to instal piped television and to recoup themselves by weekly instalments but we have heard nothing from the Minister as to the possibility of its introduction.

Last year on this occasion, the Minister told us that he proposed to establish booster stations throughout Donegal. There are certain pockets of that county in which Telefís Éireann cannot be received. The Minister told us that he proposed to establish booster stations at Letterkenny and other places but we have heard nothing since about Letterkenny or these other places, despite the fact that viewers are paying a licence fee of £4 per annum and getting very poor reception. If we are to have booster stations in Donegal, Kerry and other parts of the West, the sooner, the better.

Let me refer to the programmes from Telefís Éireann. There is not much use in using the Irish language over Telefís Éireann or Radio Eireann unless it is understood by a big number of viewers and listeners, but while we are waiting for the revival of the language, we could have more live broadcasts of subjects dealing with Irish culture. I see regularly dance competitions being broadcast by Telefís Éireann but I have never seen a céilí broadcast. I would like to see more céilí broadcasts over our services, not merely ones that have been rehearsed but ones that are actually taking place throughout the Twenty-Six Counties. They would be every bit as interesting as some of the dancing competitions we see broadcast every week.

Our outside cameras could also attend the feiseanna throughout the country. This is the period in which they are held and I should like to see live broadcasts of these occasions. If we cannot give more time to the language because a large number of people do not understand it, our Gaelic culture is well understood and we should broadcast it much more for Irish audiences. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that in future we will see many more live broadcasts of these céilithe and feiseanna. It might help to counteract some of the propaganda on the other television services.

I should also like to see more live broadcasts of sporting events, not in or around the capital, but throughout rural Ireland. It would create a greater competitive spirit at these various competitions if the players were aware that there was a bigger and wider audience than those present at the game. It is difficult to criticise Telefís Éireann. They have not yet had an opportunity to prove themselves but I hope the criticism I am making now will be accepted as constructive criticism. I have great hopes for Radio Éireann, particularly with the new Director General, Mr. Kevin McCourt, who has proved himself in many fields. We should be slow to condemn Telefís Éireann when it has been only such a short time in operation.

There are other branches of the service to which I should like to refer. There is the question of the subpostmasters. The Minister told us here last year that some of these people who give 10 hours' service per day are paid the magnificent sum of £125 per annum upwards. When he was questioned on the matter and asked if he considered this a reasonable figure for these long hours and the provision of a room, light and heat, he said that these people had certain sidelines. I cannot see what other sidelines can have to do with the question. They could have these sidelines without being subpostmasters and probably have them to a much greater extent. I would appeal to the Minister to be a man and meet these people who are paid this miserable pittance each year.

We know what happened last year when they went on strike. They were threatened and then they were beaten by a trick perpetrated on them by members of this House. The manner in which they were met was disgraceful. One would think that they are not civil servants at all. They are as much entitled to conciliation and arbitration as any other servants of the State and the fact that they live in rural Ireland is no reason why the Minister should not meet them. The Minister should hear their case.

Even at this late stage, I would make an appeal to him to be reasonable, to try to understand the difficulties under which they live, under which they try to eke out an existence. I suggest that he meet them and extend to them conciliation and arbitration and not have them disgruntled and sometimes tempted—if not subpostmasters and subpostmistresses, at least their assistants—because of the mere pittance they get, to dabble into public funds. I trust it will not be necessary to refer to this matter on this Estimate next year or any other year, that in the meantime, the Minister will have done something about it.

Most Deputies discuss each year delays in the installing of telephones. One would imagine the Minister is conferring a privilege on a person by installing a telephone. A telephone at the moment is a very expensive piece of equipment, a very expensive but indispensable luxury, and when we find waiting periods of one to two or two and a half years, there must be something wrong. Last May, we had increased postage rates. In July, the telephone charges were increased but still there is no speeding up in disposing of the backlog of applications for telephones.

I would appeal to the Minister to seek the help of his colleague, the Minister for Defence, and select from that Department some of the experts and have them seconded to his Department. I do not see why there should be any difficulty in it. Some years ago, we were told the difficulty was in the procuring of equipment. I do not think that is any longer an argument and I feel certain military personnel would be most anxious to secure practical experience in the field in the laying of telephone cables and other such work. It would not cut across in any way the labour content of the Department because the more telephones installed, the more cables laid, the more care and maintenance that will have to be given to the cables and other equipment. There will be no redundancy; there will be only a clearing of the backlog.

Even when sufficient telephones have been installed, we must still do something about speeding up trunk calls. Take the progressive market town of Ballybofey in County Donegal. If one wants to get a call through from there to Dublin, the delay is unbelievable. The Minister told me in reply to a Parliamentary Question that as a result of a test carried out, it was found the delay is no longer than three minutes, but I can assure him, as one who has very often tried to make such a telephone call, that it takes much longer than three minutes. It is something he could look into and possibly remedy.

Another question arising under the heading of telephone calls is that of courtesy. The majority of the civil servants engaged in the telephone service are most courteous and helpful but there are a few black sheep. How often do we find this reply to a query as to when one may expect a call to come through: "Hold on"? After a few minutes waiting, you leave down the receiver and after another few minutes, you get a ring to be told: "Do you want this call or not?" That is not a very courteous manner of dealing with the public. Quite recently, I discussed it with one of the Minister's colleagues who agreed that a few individuals are giving the service a bad name.

I suggest there should be a standard vocabulary for people engaged in telephone exchanges. In the United States, the first question you are asked is: "Can I help you?" and on being helped, when you thank the operator, the reply you get is: "You are welcome". How seldom do we get that kind of courtesy in this country? As I have pointed out, I am not referring to the majority. I am referring to a minority and I submit it would be no harm if the Minister would, through his officials, make spot checks on the courtesy extended to the public by some of those engaged in the telephone service.

One of the cheapest services provided by the Post Office is the overnight telegram. It may be sent for 1/6d, provided it is not to be delivered before the following day and that it is handed in before 10 o'clock at night. Last week, my friend, Deputy Harte, wished to send an overnight telegram from the city here and he was told by the telephone exchange in the city that they had never heard of the overnight telegram service. In three rural post offices in Donegal, I asked if I could send an overnight telegram and I was told they had never heard of such a service. I then put down a question to the Minister as to whether he would display in every sub-post office a notice of the hours during which such telegrams can be sent and the cost. His reply was not very helpful. In effect, he said that periodically these notices are displayed in the post offices and they would continue to be displayed periodically until further notice.

The Minister must do better than that. He must periodically instruct subpostmasters that such a service is provided, that such a service should be encouraged. I hope my ventilation of the matter in the House will let the public know that one may send a telegram of up to 12 words for 1s. 6d., provided it is handed in before 10 o'clock at night and provided one does not insist on delivery until the next day. The Minister should advertise that to the public. He should let them know about the existence of this service so that they can avail of it.

Again on the question of telephones, in many parts of rural Ireland, we have no public telephones because we have no kiosks. I know the Minister's difficulty about erecting kiosks in many parts of the country where there is no public lighting, where there may not be electricity. I am thinking of areas in Galway, Kerry, Mayo and Donegal. I am certain that in isolated pockets in those areas there is at least one public-minded citizen who would be prepared to place, free of cost to the Department, a room at the disposal of the Department where a telephone and coin box could be installed. The island of Arranmore off Donegal has not got a public telephone kiosk and I am quite sure a number of people there would be very glad to provide accommodation for a 24 hour service.

This is a service which pays and which assists the Department in paying for the service generally. We all know how difficult it is in such isolated districts to contact the priest, the doctor or the fire brigade, in cases of emergency. An immediate call through a public telephone would avoid much unpleasantness and might save life. The suggestion I have made offers a method whereby the Minister would be spared the outlay of erecting a public kiosk and he should do something about it.

The delivery of letters could be very much speeded up if motor scooters were provided for rural postmen. I suggested this last year and since then, I notice a number of motor cycles in use by postmen but why they cannot be supplied to all rural postmen is a mystery. These motor scooters are easily procured and cheap and in addition to being labour-saving, they would speed up delivery of letters in rural Ireland.

May I make one final appeal to the Minister to keep politics out of the appointment of postmen——

Mr. Hilliard

So I do.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

How the Minister can sit there without blushing and tell me that, I do not know. I have seen the secretary of a Fianna Fáil cumann produce a letter from a Minister of State saying that there would be six vacancies for temporary linesmen in the locality and if he knew anyone wanting the positions, to send the names in.

Mr. Dolan

You are talking about Ballinalee.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I do not know about Ballinalee but I know about Lifford in County Donegal, and if the Deputy confines his activities to Cavan, he would be much better off. What I have said is a fact. During the year, we had to point out to the Minister the scandal that occurred at St. Johnston over the appointment of a rural postman and within the last year or two, I pointed out a bit of a scandal that occurred back in Nairn where an Old IRA man was refused appointment as rural postman. I do not know if the Minister personally is to blame for this. I am afraid there is more than the Minister to blame. It is bad and stinks of corruption and is something the Minister should try to eradicate. I know it is difficult to get employment in rural Ireland and that people use all the pull they possibly can to get anything that is going but it is not fair that political corruption should be involved in the appointment of a postman. The Minister should at this stage try to eradicate it.

Postmen have a difficult, weary and monotonous life and every effort should be made to ensure, first of all, that they become established and thus entitled to pensions. We have remedied that up to a point through contributory pensions to which these men become entitled but, apart from that, there should be superannuation provision for them. It is unfair to see a temporary postman in the same capacity for 20, 30, or 40 years and then thrown out at the end of his time. The Minister should do something to provide superannuation for these unfortunate men. He should ensure they will have some comfort on their tiring rounds throughout the year on their deliveries.

Mr. Sherwin

It is difficult to become excited about this Estimate, although I heard a little about political corruption. I do not know if the talk was justified or not because it happens in the case of every Ministerial post. Wherever there is a vacancy, or a likelihood of one, strings are pulled in every direction and those who are disappointed will always say that it was political corruption. We have the problem of trying to house people here in Dublin and although that is done strictly on the merits, yet those who do not get what others get say that there must be "backhanders." It is very difficult for any Minister to avoid that kind of allegation. Although I am a city Deputy, I often get letters from people asking me to support somebody for the post of rate collector by talking to some TDs on the council. Frequently, it is unfair to make these allegations because it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I am interested in some minor matters. I heard it said that we should have more Irish on Telefís Éireann. What really matters is the sort of audience you have and one must admit that 80 or 90 per cent of the people, whether you like it or not, are probably not interested in anything Irish. We know that from the number of people who go to céilí dances. I think only one céilí run in Dublin pays. That was the position. It is very hard to make them pay because you have not sufficient céilí-goers and there are perhaps 2,000 modern ballroom dancers for every one who will pay to go to a céilí. Largely, television audiences do not want much Irish and they will turn it off.

I am not against encouraging Irish plays but many of the plays have ham players. In fact, from time to time, I have looked at people trying to be funny who are not funny at all.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

You do not have to go to the theatre to see that.

Mr. Sherwin

No; I am talking of television. You will not get away with that in the theatre. You will not be engaged unless you are funny. Taking television all round, it is not bad. The previous speaker referred to the time given to ballroom dancing. These dancers are specialists, not amateurs, and have probably spent 20 or 30 years at it. Most of them have private tuition every week.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The Deputy was not bad at it.

Mr. Sherwin

I know. These are not just ordinary dancers. Thousands of people will look at them who would not bother looking at céilí dancing which is more or less a team rather than an individual effort. One gets "browned off" after a few minutes looking at a fellow stepdancing. When you have seen it once, you have seen enough of it, but those exponents of ballroom dancing have anything up to 50 figures and then there is their style as well. It may be a question of taste. Otherwise, there is no comparison. Time is given on television to céilí dancing but the ballroom feature is a good feature when one considers the vast numbers who do ballroom dancing and gauge the size of the audience from that. I am speaking as an authority because as a Deputy has said——

Mr. P. O'Donnell

As an old pupil of yours, I can agree.

Mr. Sherwin

I lived out of running dances for 30 years and I can assure you I would have starved for those 30 years, if I had tried to run céilí dances.

The Old Fianna passed a resolution last year asking the Minister to have a stamp to commemorate the formation of the Volunteers. This is the 50th anniversary of the formation of the Volunteers. It was suggested that some stamp should be produced to commemorate not only the Volunteers but the Cumann na mBan, the Citizen Army and the Fianna. I think there ought to be such a stamp. It is not too late yet to have one.

I can never see how a person with a private telephone should have to pay £1 17s. 6d. for rental. In thousands of cases, those people do not use the phone six times a week. It works out that very often they are paying 1/- a call—it amounts to that—whereas other people are doing business on it. Therefore, they are actually largely profiting by the phone. There should be some differential as between those who have a private phone just for their own use and those who actually use it for business purposes. I know people whose bill amounts to only about 10/- or 15/- but who have to pay £1 17s. 6d. for the rental.

I hope the Minister will keep the few points I have made, especially the one about the stamp, in mind.

Mr. Dolan

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar an Meastachán seo. Chím go bhfuil níos mó airgid le fáil i mbliana. Sí is príomh-cúis leis sin ná, do réir na tuairiscí anseo, go bhfuil níos mó tuarasta a thabhairt amach agus go bhfuil sé in aigne an Aire níos mó guthán a chur ar fáil dos na daoine. Is eol dom gur maith an rud é sin agus gur dul ar aghaidh maith é. Caithfidh mé chomhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire gur éirigh leis an t-airgead a chur ar fáil. Dá mba rud é nach raibh an t-airgead ann, ní bhféadhfadh linn dul ar aghaidh. Ie é capall na hoibre airgead ins an chás seo agus is maith an rud é go bhfuil sé ar fail.

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá mar gheail ar Oifig an Phoist féin— sé sin, na tothe. Sílim go mba chóir go mbeadh roint bheag airgid le caitheamh ortha gach bliain. Ceann des na háiteanna is cinnte a thugann an cuairteóir cuairt uirthi isteach oifig an phoist. De ghnáth, nuair a théann cuairteóir isteach in oifig an phoist féachann sé thart air agus bíonn a fhios aige ansin cé'n sórt tír í. An féidir leis an Aire aon rud a dhéanamh chun cabhair a thabhairt sa treo sin? Sílim go mba chóir deontas beag a chur ar fáil gach bliain agus iallach a chur ar na daoine gur leo na tithe sin dath nua a chur ar an áit agus ainm na hoifige a scriobhadh amach arís gach bliain, agus mar sin de.

First of all, I want to say I believe that the post offices are places most often visited not alone by the people of the district but by those who come here as tourists. For that reason, I feel that these premises should be kept in a fairly high standard of repair. If at all possible, some little gratuity should be given periodically to help these people to ensure that their premises are clean, neat, well-painted and well-preserved.

I know, too, that many of the people who own these premises placed the best room at the disposal of the post office when it was necessary to make application or when they were granted these post offices away back years ago. Conditions have changed very much since then. The work has increased out of all proportion. Very often now subpostmasters in the country find they have to work practically all round the clock, in view of the increased telephone services all over the country.

I feel the time probably has come when the Minister will have to differentiate between post offices located in private houses where no business is carried on and post offices located where various trading shops, and so on, are in the same building or along side it and to the advantage of the owner. That, in itself, may have mitigated very much against the subpostmasters when they were looking for an increase recently. I know that the amount of work they have to do has increased enormously.

I should also like to pay a special tribute to them in view of the fact that last year they handed in, I think, over £3½ million in Saving Certificates, probably more. As a matter of fact, down the years, they have handed back millions of pounds. It is rather strange that in this country while the majority of people may try to place bank officials and people who work on those premises on a very high place, the same often does not apply so far as the ordinary subpostmaster is concerned, despite that fact that he, too, handles an enormous amount of public money during the year.

It is to the credit of these men that they have handled that money efficiently and that very rarely are there instances of persons embezzling or putting to their own use any of the funds entrusted to them for safe keeping. I think that is a special tribute to them. As a community, we all know that the post office is a great centre in any parish or locality. We know, too, that these postmasters have been more than obliging to rural people who often go in there at any hour they feel like it and try to make urgent telephone calls or have telegrams sent.

I feel it would be well if the Minister could differentiate between these two types of people who have these offices. If at all possible, he should try to ensure that they will be contented in their employment and will find it remunerative so far as carrying on the good work they are already doing is concerned.

With regard to Telefís Éireann, I feel it is something which is destined very much in the coming year to influence the trend of thought in this country. For that reason, I believe it should be of the very best. I believe it should lose no opportunity to try to get across to the Irish people our own ancient history, culture and native language. I do not mean we should expect them to try to furnish completely Irish programmes for people who do not know the Irish language sufficiently well to interpret everything that comes across. However, it is true to say that the Irish language has been taught in the national schools for well over the past 40 years. Therefore, anybody of average intelligence who went through the national school should surely understand such simple phrases as go raibh maith agat and slán agaibh. Very often, these are not used by personnel on Radio Éireann or on Telefís Éireann. However, I did not rise to try to pick out the bad points.

It is true to say that both Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann have at times put across excellent programmes that were much appreciated by the ordinary people in the country. It is also true that programme planners seem to think that the rural population is composed of people who fall over themselves to listen to symphony concerts and other high-falutin programmes and often exclude our own Irish jigs and reels and ballads which the ordinary people enjoy and appreciate very much and which reflect and tell the history of our nation. Those of us who have seen the School Around the Corner on Telefís Éireann and some of the ventriloquist programmes certainly realise the work that is being done in Telefís Éireann to nurse the people along towards becoming at least bilingual. The idea of bringing Irish music and ballads from our exiles in America and England is also a very excellent one and these programmes are enjoyed by the ordinary people. I congratulate the Radio Éireann staff on providing that service.

Many complaints were received during the year regarding telephones but we cannot blame the Minister for this state of affairs. Very often, it is said that there is a backlog of 2,000 or 3,000 but most people do not realise that that backlog goes back only a year or two. Many people are making an application for telephones who a few years ago would not dream of having such facilities on their premises. Unless the cables are properly laid down and able to take the load, it would cause nothing but confusion. The Minister and his Department have made tremendous progress. Everywhere one sees men laying cables underground and overhead. Although the work is being done without any great show, the results are there for anyone who wishes to see them. The Minister has been doing tremendous work since he came into office and he is to be congratulated.

Some reference has been made by Deputies in Opposition to the appointment of subpostmasters, rural postmen, and so on. Some of them have even gone so far as to accuse the Minister of favouring certain candidates rather than the men these Deputies felt should get these positions. In my short time here, I remember a question being raised here regarding the dismissal of a postman in the south of Ireland and I must compliment the Minister on the restraint he used on that occasion. Time and time again, he was asked why this man was dismissed. It was even insinuated that there was some political significance behind it. Still the Minister kept cool and said that because his Department felt he was not fit to hold the position, he was dismissed.

The particular Deputy went further and demanded the whole story. Then the Minister very properly turned over his pages and was able to convince every Deputy before he had turned many pages that he had taken the right decision and had been more than lenient towards this person. In fact, it was the opinion of every fairminded person that he was left too long in the job. That does show that the Minister is not biased in any way. I think it was this Government who set up the Appointments Commission for the holding of State examinations for people entering the Garda Síochána and various other services so as to ensure that these positions were not secured by political pull. It is to their credit that they have done that.

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Aire as ucht a rinne sé i rith na bliana agus guím rath Dé ar an obair atá á déanamh aige féin agus na daoine atá ag obair faoi.

Mr. Governey

I want to express my grave concern that in connection with the £4 licence fee for wireless and television and after deducting costs of about £514,600 in connection with the broadcasting services, the Minister says it may be necessary to re-examine the position and increase the fee during the coming year. Last year, there was an increase in postage and now the Minister says it may be necessary to increase wireless licences. Many people will express grave concern at this move considering that some years ago we were paying only 12/6 for our wireless licence which was increased gradually to 17/6 and is now £1. Seemingly the Minister and his Department are not satisfied that the revenue from these licences is enough to meet their commitments. The Minister and his Department would be well advised to think slowly on this matter before taking this step.

I wish to mention a matter which I brought to the Minister's attention some months ago when I had a communication from the telephone subscribers in the Ballon area of County Carlow. They found that the service was very bad there during the busy hours. I should like to say that it was due to no fault of the workers in the Ballon, Tullow or Carlow post offices. That was last November and I had at that stage a communication from the Minister stating that this was due to insufficiency of circuits between Tullow, Ballon and Carlow and that arrangements were in train to have these remedied. I am sorry to say that after practically five months this position, as far as I know, has not been remedied and I draw the attention of the Minister and his Department to this fact so that they may have it remedied in the near future.

There seems to be a big delay in my end of the constituency in dealing with applications for telephones. It is five months since I asked the Minister how many applications there were in the Carlow area. Speaking from memory, I think he told me there was something in the region of 120, which he hoped would be dealt with within 12 months. I hope his Department will make headway in this regard, since the demand for telephones seems to be increasing all the time. His Department are finding it hard to meet expenses in certain directions. If these people were given the telephone service, it would certainly improve the financial position in the Department.

For a number of years past, the GPO building in Carlow has not been at all adequate. The Department purchased a site from Carlow County Council on which to build a new post office. Speaking from memory, I think it was three years ago. To date, not a stone has been laid on that site. I am often perturbed to hear substribers complain about the telephone service in the town. I never see eye to eye with such people. I have always found the greatest courtesy and promptness on the part of the staff in the post office, but I know they are working under very adverse conditions. The building of the post office should be expedited as much as possible.

In regard to the connecting of telephones, I had a particular case in Tullow. The Minister has the name and address of a subscriber there who in 1961 applied for an extension from his office to his house. He is still waiting for that extension. He is a professional man. He told me it interferes with his professional work that he cannot get this extension. I would ask the Minister to see what he can do in this matter. It is most unfair that a person should be left waiting for that length of time.

A previous speaker mentioned that rural postmen should be supplied with scooters. In the year 1963, it is deplorable to see our rural postmen—some of them pretty aged—pushing around on pedal cycles trying to do their job in all sorts of weather. I would fully support Deputy O'Donnell in suggesting that some type of scooter be supplied to our rural postmen.

From references made here. I take it that some people are under the impression some appointments as subpostmasters have been political appointments. I am not accusing the present Minister of making these appointments on political grounds. I should hate to think that any appointment in this country, be it as a subpostmaster or anything else, would be made on political grounds. I know there are some political appointments, but I deplore them. Everybody should be tried in fair competition. No matter what job a person goes for in the postal service, it should not be a matter of appointment on political grounds. I hope that whoever mentioned this previously is wrong.

I hope the points I have raised will be looked into by the Minister. In my short time in the House, I have always found him most courteous and helpful in meeting any questions put to him, whether in the House or privately in his office. I would ask him to look into these matters, especially the position in regard to the Carlow Post Office building. It is essential that that should be gone ahead with as quickly as possible.

The Minister and his Department would be well advised to think again before increasing wireless licence fees. I do not know whether the Minister intends increasing them before or after the Budget. It may be like the postal charges last year — we may have a second Budget. But the Minister would be well advised to examine the matter before proceeding any further.

It is certainly praiseworthy that the Minister expects the Television Authority to break even in 1962-63. While there may be criticism of some of their programmes, I think they are putting on good entertainment and I wish them every success. I should like to add my voice to that of Deputy Crotty in saying that the appointment of Mr. McCourt met with general approval.

Mr. Harte

I should like to congratulate the Minister at the outset and when a member from this side of the House congratulates the present Minister, he does so sincerely. Any time I have had occasion to visit him in his office, I have been received by him with the utmost courtesy and I have the highest respect for him. Nevertheless, there are certain aspects of his Department to which I wish to refer but purely in relation to his Department and not to him personally.

Since I spoke on this Estimate last year, we have had some advance with Telefís Éireann but I am sorry to say that in Donegal we have yet to receive perfect reception. In some parts, there is no reception whatever; yet we have officials of the Department visiting homes to inquire about licences and warning the people who have television sets that if they do not take out licences, they will be prosecuted. I appreciate that this is the law and that if you have a radio set, you must have a licence; but I feel that the Minister should close his eyes to certain matters and concentrate on areas where they have good reception and where they are getting a service. Plenty of people in Donegal have paid the £4 licence but they have paid it under protest. Other people find it difficult to pay it and they think, and to some extent I agree with them, that the Department is collecting this fee under false pretences.

Speakers from the Government side welcomed the introduction of Telefís Éireann to counteract the anti-national programmes and the bad programmes being broadcast by the BBC and UTV. I should like to congratulate the authorities of both UTV and BBC on some of their programmes because in many cases they have a more national character than those from our own service. We must appreciate that both the BBC and UTV are British authorities and we do not expect them to have the viewpoint expressed by certain fanatics who claim to be better Irishmen than some of us.

What puzzles me about the service offered by Telefís Éireann is why our programmes must be canned. There is no reason why the Authority should not visit rural Ireland and televise local functions which are part of the culture of rural Ireland. Instead we have western films from America and gangsters and murder films from Broadway and Hollywood. I should like the Minister to instruct Telefís Éireann to visit rural Ireland and film some of the functions in Donegal, for example. I should like to see the regattas in Moville, Rathmullen and Killybegs being televised on each August Bank Holiday, or the finals at the greyhound track at Lifford. Such programmes would be better than some of the tripe that is being sent out.

Telefís Éireann not only collects the licence fees but also a certain amount of revenue by way of advertisements. I should like the Minister to consider that the BBC function purely on licence fees—the licence in England also costs £4—while UTV and ITV function purely on the amount they collect by way of advertisements. Yet Telefís Éireann collects licence fees and revenue by way of advertisements and it is unnecessary for me to say that the Telefís Éireann programmes are anything but comparable with the BBC and UTV programmes.

Another point to which I want to refer is that if one is addressing a letter to County Donegal, he must put in the postal address the names of one of the three sorting offices, Letterkenny, Lifford or Donegal town. The Lifford office has 53 sub-offices, the Letterkenny office has 38 and Donegal has 25. There are seven local offices which have opted to take a direct service from Dublin. I am told that this is being done only in County Donegal. As you well know, Sir, this regulation was introduced some 12 months ago. Prior to that date, if you addressed a letter to one of your constituents and put the sub-office address on it, without the address of one of the main offices, that letter reached the constituent the following day. Twelve months ago, a new regulation was brought in, or an old one was re-introduced—I just cannot work it out—and if you refrain from putting either "Letterkenny" or "Donegal" on the letter, it takes two days for that letter to reach your constituent. This is codology. It is done because some tight-laced civil servant in Dublin decided that it was right.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister takes responsibility for his Department. The officials do not come into this debate.

Mr. Harte

I should like to point out that the Minister should instruct this tight-laced civil servant that when a person has to write "Lifford", "Donegal" or "Letterkenny" on the envelope, it is most misleading. When that person may have occasion in the summertime to visit Donegal, he could arrive in Donegal looking for Glencolumbcille; he could arrive in Lifford looking for Malin; he could arrive in Letterkenny looking for Bunbeg. This is most misleading and absolutely unnecessary and I would ask the Minister to consider the matter.

As television improves, the use of Radio Éireann will decline. Most of us tune in to Radio Éireann for the morning news, the Hospitals Requests programme and the midday news. I would ask the Minister to consider the possibility of utilising Radio Éireann for more extensive hospital programmes. Greater use could be made of Radio Éireann to make the stay of a patient in hospital more pleasant.

The question of the installation of telephones has been dealt with by Deputy O'Donnell but I should like to refer briefly to the matter. Every month I have to write to the Secretary of the Department asking the reason for the delay in installing a telephone. We all appreciate that the Minister and his staff cannot provide the service for an applicant immediately on receipt of a letter in the Department but I cannot understand why it takes in some cases three years and three and a half years to provide the service. I have personal knowledge of an application for a telephone made in 1958 and the telephone has not yet been installed. There is no reason for such a delay. I think there is some person in the Department who is not pulling his weight.

To rural users, the telephone is an absolute necessity in this modern age. Members of the farming community need a telephone service for the purposes of contacting a veterinary surgeon or the AI station or a doctor. If they have not a telephone in the house, they may have to travel three or four miles to get the message through. I would ask the Minister to direct the Department to make an allout effort to clear off the backlog of applications for telephones from my constituency of North-East Donegal.

I have the highest regard for the Minister; I have always regarded him as a real gentleman; but I have had occasion to come into the House and ask very pertinent questions about the appointment of postmen in County Donegal. When the Press reports went out, as usual, the local Fianna Fáil supporters misrepresented the facts of the case and I should like to take this opportunity of assuring any person who read anything which I said on those occasions that the facts are beyond denial.

There was a case in Donegal where a man was appointed temporary auxiliary postman. He is a married man with four in family. He was called for interview and because he was the only person who attended for the interview, he was appointed temporarily and was left with the thought that the job was his. Three months later, he got a letter telling him that he must attend for a further interview. Before that interview was held, it was common gossip, street-corner talk, a publichouse yarn, that the result of the interview would be that the secretary of the local Fianna Fáil cumann would be appointed to the post. The reason for the delay in holding the second interview was that the boy had to attain the age of 18 years. One fortnight after that boy became 18 years of age, the interview was held and he was appointed, in spite of the fact that a married man with four in family was disemployed.

Arising out of questions I asked in the House, the Minister informed us that any person drawing unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit got preference in such appointments. Here was the case of a man who had been drawing unemployment benefit, who had four in family, who had a small sideline job at £2 or £2 15s. a week which he supplemented by the £4 a week he had as auxiliary postman. He appreciated that £4 a week addition to his meagre livelihood. It was for him a case of working for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs at £4 a week or emigrating. He was content to work as a postman. He was deprived of that livelihood because the local Fianna Fáil cumann put the screw on the local Fianna Fáil Deputy to put the screw on either an official's or the Minister's arm.

The Minister may not have been aware of the facts of the case until after the appointment. That may have been the case but after I had exposed the facts in this House, the Minister should have annulled the appointment of the boy of 18 years of age who was in fact secretary of the Fianna Fáil cumann.

Deputy Dolan from Cavan a few moments ago advocated political appointments and suggested that certain jobs were political appointments. We realise that certain jobs are political appointments. That is an accepted fact. A job such as auxiliary postman should not be subject to political pull. Every person requires a job. I realise that if a Fine Gael man was looking for a job and a Fianna Fáil man was looking for the same job and both of them had the same qualifications, the Minister would be inclined towards his Party supporter. I would accept that because, in all fairness, if I were in his position, I would be inclined to take a similar view.

I cannot understand how a boy of 18 years of age would be given preference over a married man with a family of four, in view of the fact that certain other members of that household were already in jobs. That is something that should be condemned. I promise that every time a similar case comes to my notice, so long as it is my duty to expose it, I will do so, and I will do so in a just and fair manner.

This is not the first time something like that has happened in Donegal. Deputy O'Donnell referred to a letter which was received by the local Fianna Fáil branch secretary in Lifford in connection with the creation of 12 new jobs as labourers or linesmen. The Minister for Local Government wrote to the secretary of the Fianna Fáil branch and to a Grade B postman in the post office instructing him that these 12 new posts were being created. The news reached the two individuals before it became officially known to the engineer in charge in Donegal. I saw a copy of one of the letters and it was to the effect that they were invited to nominate six people to fill the posts. If those are not Tammany Hall tactics, I do not know the meaning of the expression.

Mr. Hilliard

I do not appoint casual labourers; they are taken on by the local engineer.

Mr. Harte

That may be so.

Mr. Hilliard

It is so.

Mr. Harte

I feel that as the Minister is in charge of the Department and this has happened in his Department, he should have it examined.

Mr. Hilliard

I have responsibility, but I do not appoint them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It might be a matter for another Estimate, if the Minister has no responsibility, as he says he has not.

Mr. Hilliard

I said I have responsibility, but I do not make the appointments. I do not appoint casual labourers.

Mr. Harte

The Minister would have the authority to have an investigation made.

Mr. Hilliard

I would.

Mr. Harte

It is too bad that I was not a member of the House when this happened. I shall conclude by saying that since I came into the House, I have found the Minister courteous and a gentleman in every respect. On some occasions, I have found it difficult to say anything which might have offended him. I hope that if I have done so, he will take it in the manner in which it was given.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I should like to take up where the previous speaker finished by thanking the Minister for his availability and courtesy at all times. In saying that, I do not want to be taken as in any way approving the statements made by the previous speaker to the effect that one must be affiliated to a Fianna Fáil cumann before one can get an appointment in the Post Office. My experience of the Minister has not been along those lines. I have found him extremely fair and I have found that he takes into consideration the circumstances of the various applicants as a primary consideration. Of course, it is bound to be rather difficult for supporters of other Parties, because taking any half dozen applicants, four are likely to be Fianna Fáil supporters anyway, by reason of the numerical strength of the Party in the country.

I should like to compliment and thank the Minister for his personal attention to a matter in connection with the delivery of air mail letters to Kano in Northern Nigeria where there is a fairly large number of Irish nuns, priests and laymen. I want to thank the Minister for the practical steps he has taken, arising out of my representations, which speeded up the delivery of airmail letters to that region.

I fully appreciate the difficulties of the Minister in regard to the telephone service. The expansion in that service has been phenomenal. Of course, that is not a unique development; it is happening in every country all over the world. The Department are entitled to be congratulated on having been able over the years to keep up, or almost keep up, with the demand. There are, however, some pockets and areas where the service is not as it should be, and, as I am sure, what the Minister would like it to be. I notice that in recent times there was extraordinary difficulty about contracts in the Kiltimagh area. I take it that the reason is, as I believe it is, that there are not sufficient cables to take in additional telephone lines. I sympathise with the Department in their difficulty, but I would ask the Minister to keep that area in mind. There are a number of people there who have applied for business telephones as distinct from private telephones. Considerable hardship is being imposed on them by reason of the fact that telephones have not been installed.

No reference is made in the Minister's statement to the dispute in Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann. I should like to compliment the journalists involved on the dignified way in which they have made their protest, to express the hope that the Government, having effectively intervened in the CIE crisis on behalf of a very large number of workers, will have the same concern for a small body of workers who, to my way of thinking, have established at least a prima facie claim for considerably increased remuneration, and to add that so far as the new television service is a creature of the Government, the Government should have regard to the goodwill they have enjoyed, and I am sure will continue to enjoy, vis-á-vis the Authority and those who work under the Authority. I hope, therefore, that because of the fact that the number of people involved in the dispute is small, the merits of the dispute will not be allowed to fall into the background. I hope the Minister, or some other person, will use his good office to have it speedily brought to a conclusion, possibly through the medium such as that which was offered to the CIE workers, and which I hope will be accepted.

Recently an examination was carried out under the aegis of the Department for linesmen in the Castlebar and Claremorris area, and, I presume, in other parts of the country. As a result of that examination, a number of men who thought they had been quite satisfactory in their work over the previous three or four years, admittedly in a temporary capacity, were unsuccessful. I have some difficulty in understanding why these young men could not have been continued in that employment, particularly if there were sufficient work for them to be retained in a temporary capacity even after failing the examination.

I wonder why the examination was thought necessary or desirable at all. In saying that, I am not to be taken as in any way criticising the Minister's decision to have the examination held. I am merely saying that I was not clear on the real purpose of the examination and that I would like to know, as a matter of information, and on behalf of some of those who were laid off, who felt they had given eminently satisfactory service to the Department during that period, and who possibly felt that their experience was at least equal to that of some who were deemed successful in the examination, what it was.

In the main, the standard of courtesy and attention given to the public by the telephonists throughout the country is extremely high. I have complimented them on this before and their standards of efficiency and courtesy continue to improve every day.

I also wish to mention the cause of the postmasters and postmistresses who cannot be said to have adequate remuneration for their responsibilities and for the work they have to do. As the Minister has pointed out, they cooperate in the distribution of Prize Bonds, which is a form of national service, and they have an ever-increasing burden to cope with in relation to telephones, letters and other duties. I should hope that they would be given increased remuneration quickly because a high standard of integrity is required from all workers in the postal service. The postmaster or postmistress has a heavy individual responsibility in regard to staff and I feel that pay is not commensurate with such responsibility and that the position should be reviewed.

The final matter I wish to mention is the provision made in the British Budget whereby the whole amount of the broadcasting licence fee is to be given to the broadcasting authority there. I admit that is intended merely for the purpose of helping the BBC to establish a second service and that it is not intended that a second service should be established here. It is obvious from the experience that our broadcasting Authority is becoming increasingly tightened financially and it would be no harm if the Minister arranged with his colleague in the Cabinet to keep the needs of the Authority in mind in a few weeks' time.

If that should involve an increase in the fee, I do not think it would call for much public criticism. A person who had a wireless set before the television service was introduced would have to pay £1 and most people would regard the £4 licence as reasonable. If the wireless licence were increased by 10/- and the £4 added on to that, I think it would be to everybody's benefit. Once again, I thank the Minister for his helpful attention and courtesy at all times and I wish him well for the coming year.

Mr. Mullen

I want to join with the previous speakers who have complimented the Minister on his courteous manner in dealing with representations made to him. One matter to which I wish to call his attention is the difficulty experienced by workers in having telephone charges reversed. It often happens that a workman working outside his own area has occasion to make a phone call to his employer, but, if he finds himself out of funds, he is unable to reverse the charges. I am told that one of the main objections would be the making of calls from public houses. Surely that should not be an impediment to the provision of the necessary service. It is not everybody who has the necessary change when making urgent and necessary calls.

Some better system should be devised in connection with the making of trunk calls abroad. Particularly at Christmas time, many people make calls and do not know the difficulties of calling back. It has been found that people when making such calls do so in the belief that they can be rung back immediately but there is no arrangement by which that can be done. It also happens frequently that one sees a queue of people outside a phone box waiting for their turn to make a call. It seems that when a person is called back, the time allowed for that call is much longer than that allowed for the first call.

An effort should be made to have telephone kiosks erected in housing areas simultaneously with the development of the area. There is a crying need for telephone kiosks in these areas and, in my constituency, they are particularly needed in Finglas. Great difficulty is experienced by the residents in that area when they need the services of a doctor, ambulance or the fire brigade. It means that people have to walk a considerable distance at night to make these urgent calls.

Some improvement should be made in the arrangements for the cleaning of telephone boxes. Insufficient staff appear to be supplied for that purpose and it is not very pleasant to enter a telephone box and pick up a phone which is obviously not clean. Some effort should also be made to keep children from running in and out of these telephone boxes. Some sort of catch should be put on the top of the kiosk so that it would not be as accessible as most of them are.

I would ask the Minister to look into the issue of television licences by private firms. I have already asked the Minister to do something to ensure certain people will not make money from the issue of television licences. It is a fact that one firm in the city has a special office which does nothing else but give out television licences. One can go in and simply give the name and address, fill in a form and the licence is applied for. The person signs a document under which he contracts to pay so much a week, plus an amount for interest. Is it legally right for a person to make money in that way? Has the Minister had any complaints that this is happening? It is not right to have television licences on the HP unless the Department themselves sponsor such a scheme.

I should be obliged if a little more attention could be given to the selection of casual workers in the Department during the rush periods. Very often, the manner of selection is ridiculed: people say that those in most need of such employment are passed over, that those engaged are not selected from the local employment exchanges.

I am anxious to find out how much money has been saved by the television and radio authority since the present dispute of journalists employed by them began. It has been said around the city that there has been a saving on the wages of those journalists, that in fact efforts to settle the dispute have not been as genuine as they might have been, since, coming up to the end of the financial year, the Authority were anxious to save as much as possible and break even. Now that the dispute has lasted so long, I suggest the Minister should intervene and endeavour to arrange a conference with a view to an early settlement. It would settle one situation at least, where journalists are complaining that statements of national importance are being arranged and broadcast by nonjournalists.

Mr. Crinion

I was particularly pleased to learn from the Minister's statement that the amount invested in the Post Office Savings Bank has reached £97 million and that it is hoped it will touch the £100 million mark next year. This is the establishment in respect of which children begin to learn the habit of saving. It has all the facilities of an ordinary bank, with the added attraction that there is a post office in every village and parish in the country where people can put their money and be guaranteed a rate of interest even better than that afforded by ordinary banks.

This time last year, I drew the Minister's attention to a drawback in the collection of mail in the three towns of Tyrrellspass, Rochfort Bridge and Milltownpass. Although there is a morning mail delivery in the three, the postman will not collect the mail from the pillarbox. That is done in the afternoon. The reason given is that it would cause delay in the deliveries. It means that letters posted there during the night must lie there until the following afternoon. It is anomalous that while the mail is collected in the morning in Kinnegad, my home town, the postman then goes on to the three towns I mention and does not collect. It would not cause any great delay to have collections taken there and it would not impose any extra amount of work on those concerned. On the other hand, it would greatly facilitate business people and farmers. There is an office in one of the towns where the staff work on until 5.30 p.m. preparing the post. They then put them in the letterbox but they lie there right into the afternoon of the following day.

We are very pleased in Kildare that the automatic telephone system has been introduced. Like all innovations, it it still suffering from teething troubles. At the moment, for instance, if one is making a call to places such as Naas or Newbridge, one must dial two or three times. I am sure these are difficulties which can be overcome in time by the Post Office engineers but at the moment, it is a very definite drawback.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.