Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 May 1963

Vol. 202 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Mr. T. Lynch.)

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. O'Malley)

I shall try to refer to as many items as possible, and to the more important aspects mentioned by Deputies in this debate.

There was a query as to the use to which the Garda Depot in the Phoenix Park will be put when the new Depot is opened in Templemore. It is anticipated that the present Depot will be used as the new Garda headquarters. It will be converted into a new headquarters for the Garda, including a headquarters for the Dublin Metropolitan Division, which, I understand, is at present in Kilmainham.

A point was raised in regard to the National Library. It is proposed to erect a new National Library on a site of about two acres which has been purchased by the State at Morehampton Road, Donnybrook. The project is at the preliminary stage, and sketch plans have not yet been prepared. Naturally an estimate of the cost would not be available at this stage.

Mr. Dillon

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary when he says that a new National Library is to be erected, does he mean that an annexe will be built? The library will not be moved away from where it is?

Mr. O'Malley

Perhaps I am not the most competent person to deal with this matter in detail. We get our instructions and we carry them out. The intention is that a completely new National Library will be erected. Space will be left, and naturally the National Museum will be anxious to acquire it. I understand that an inter-departmental committee has been sitting on this whole question of the Arts, the National Gallery, the National Library, and so forth, for some time. To answer Deputy Dillon's question, it will be a completely new National Library.

Mr. Dillon

The National Library will be taken out of the existing building altogether?

Mr. O'Malley

Exactly. Deputy Desmond inquired about the new Garda station in Kinsale. Some time ago, we invited tenders for the erection of a new station and married quarters, and the response was so poor —as a matter of fact, we got only one tender—that it has been decided to re-advertise.

Deputy A. Barry mentioned the building scheme at Shannon Airport. As he is now aware, the Office of Public Works have no responsibility for that building, nor do they maintain courthouses or the railings around courthouses. Those are matters for another Department. The Department of Transport and Power are responsible for the building at Shannon Airport, and the county councils are charged with the maintenance of county courthouses.

Deputy Dillon referred to the proposed statue to Thomas Davis and asked for details of the bronze reliefs which form part of the scheme. Details have not yet been worked out. If Deputies so wish, I can make available in the Library the maquette of the statue. I am sure it will meet with the approval of the House.

Dungarvan Post Office was referred to by Deputy Kyne. The site for the new post office building has been selected by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and legal formalities in connection with its acquisition are in hand. Sketch plans of the new building are being prepared.

Deputy P. Brennan referred to the delay in securing a site for the new Garda station at Ashford. As he said, efforts to secure a suitable site have been proceeding for some years past. Six sites have been investigated, all of which were unsuitable or unattainable for one reason or another. Yet another is now being investigated, and it is our hope that at long last an amicable solution will be arrived at, and the erection of the station can go ahead.

Deputy S. Dunne inquired about Portmarnock school. This contract was placed early in January. Good progress has been made. The foundations and rising walls are up and it is expected that it will be completed by May of next year.

With regard to school improvement generally, I have to thank the Deputies for the various suggestions made. The Planning Section will certainly bear them in mind. It is invaluable to our Office to have these constructive suggestions made by Deputy Jones, who has practical experience of schools, and by members of local bodies who also have intimate knowledge of the position in regard to school buildings. It is very helpful to our architects who study these debates that these suggestions should be made.

I may say that the Minister for Education is very much alive to the desirability of providing water in every school and is considering how best that can be done. He is also considering the question of increasing the space allocated per pupil.

Mr. Tully

Does the Parliamentary Secretary mean the provision of water for old schools?

Mr. O'Malley

For all schools. Our Office is alive to the need to experiment with new ideas and new materials. Investigation of that matter is one of the functions of the Special Development Section set up some time ago in the Office.

I had not proposed to deal with the question of new systems of building referred to by Deputy McQuillan and Deputy A. Barry. Deputy McQuillan's remarks contained a great deal of sound commonsense with regard to the economics of prefabrication. He is quite right in pointing out that the success of the prefabrication system depends on continuity. In other words, to order one unit could be very expensive whereas if an agreed number of such prefabricated schools were ordered from the contractors over a period of years it would enable them to quote much more attractive terms. It is only a matter of time until a very large portion of the school building programme will be carried out by prefabricated methods.

The word "prefabricated" is rather a misnomer and suggests to the man-inthe-street a temporary timber structure. Some months ago the Sunday Telegraph ran a competition inviting better names for this type of building. One of the judges for the purposes of the competition was Sir Keith Josephs, Minister of Works in Britain. The name chosen as the most suitable was “Modular System”, in which case an agreed unit is the basis for all design. It connotes building of a more permanent nature.

Deputy McQuillan asked what progress had been made with regard to the provision of a new type of school. In my opening statement I cited the new school at Clondalkin and another school which show improvement in design. The schools mentioned in my introductory remarks represent merely an approach to prefabrication. We did send a mission last year to Britain comprised of members of my Office and an outside consultant on costings. They did a lot of good work. They saw what were considered the best systems over there, the class-system, in particular, and since then we have been studying those systems.

It is not easy to say that one particular system is the one that should be adopted in Ireland, having regard to our peculiar problems. First of all, we have to ensure that Irish materials are used, such as cement, concrete roofing tiles and so on. Then we have to pay particular attention, as mentioned by Deputy A. Barry, to the aesthetic qualities of the school. I thoroughly agree with the Deputy that there could be nothing more appalling than to have a repetition all over rural Ireland of a stereotype school. It is possible, of course, to have prefabricated schools produced according to the modular system, whereby the designers can produce variations on a theme, providing for different finishes of concrete, different finishes on the walls, concrete roofing tiles, all Irish materials and no imported materials. That is the question which is occupying our minds at the present time.

In relation to the necessity to have an agreed design, an agreed programme and continuity of work, we have received every encouragement from the Minister for Education. Of course, the only solution is to put up for tender an agreed minimum number of schools for a minimum period of, say, five to seven years. The capital cost of setting up a factory that would prefabricate is very high. To ensure success, continuity and a minimum number of schools must be guaranteed.

The Minister for Education made a rather interesting suggestion, namely, that we should start on a section of the country. I think it was Deputy Corish or Deputy Kyne who last year asked what happens the rest of the school building programme while this prefabricated system is in the embryonic stage and would there be an upset to the planned programme. That is a problem. It would appear that the proper method, as the Minister suggested and asks us to consider, is to take a section of the country, say, a diocese or two dioceses. That would have obvious advantages.

It is quite true, as Deputy McQuillan pointed out, that building costs could be reduced substantially by changing over to prefabrication, but not to the extent he mentioned. A saving of ten per cent to 15 per cent might be achieved on the orthodox school, but certainly not 66? as he mentioned. As Deputies who study the Book of Estimates will appreciate, such a saving would be very great. Deputy Jones advocated that, with such a saving, it should be possible to improve conditions, furniture, and so on in these schools.

Mr. A. Barry

And decoration.

Mr. O'Malley

More colour, perhaps. But that is not dependent on prefabrication. We will bear the suggestion in mind. The big advantage in this type of building is, of course, the speed of erection. Deputy Treacy and others were interested in this aspect. There again, however, the improvement in speed would not be anything like what Deputy McQuillan suggested; he visualised the orthodox school normally built in nine months erected in a few weeks. The nine to twelve months school could certainly, with proper planning and co-ordination, be erected in 12 to 14, or 16, weeks.

Deputies may ask why we have in mind the dioceses. It is a matter of economics. There would be no point in putting a factory in Clonmel and starting the first contracts in Donegal. The radius of operation must be an economic one of 60 to 80 miles. The idea would be to complete contracts in one area, such as Clonmel, and then move on to Athlone, and from there down to Tralee, and so on. The reason I devote so much time to this matter is that I regard this as an exciting new experience.

Mr. Corish

It is about time a bit of excitement was introduced into the Board of Works.

Mr. O'Malley

Not alone will this system of construction be important from the point of view of schools; it will also be important from another point of view. One of the big problems confronting the Minister for Local Government—it is a problem he has been studying for some months now—is that of supplying rural cottages, of which we need 14,000 to 15,000 at the moment. It is impossible to get contractors and, even if one is successful in getting contractors, they are not anxious to undertake this work. There is a readymade case for prefabrication.

Mr. Tully

Or direct labour.

Mr. O'Malley

As far as I am concerned, I would advise any friend of mine to have no truck with direct labour. Direct labour seems to be a fetish with the Labour Party, for some peculiar reason. The idea seems to be ingrained in them that the employment content in building increases in direct labour.

Mr. Tully

No, but the profit content is decreased.

Mr. A. Barry

The cost of the house is often higher.

Mr. Tully

The fault lies with the people responsible for the building, not with the people who build it.

Mr. Corish

There are good and bad examples to be found all over the country.

Mr. Tully

It is a matter of supervision.

Mr. O'Malley

Everything being equal, with the profit incentive, and competition, and fair conditions for the workers——

Mr. Tully

You cannot get them.

Mr. O'Malley

That is a problem we hope to tackle. Everything being equal, we find it is more advantageous to stick to contract because the profit incentive is there.

With regard to drainage, the priority list was not drawn up by me. It was based on the information available at the time it was drawn up as to the need for drainage in the different areas and the Parliamentary Secretary of the day got the best technical advice possible. Successive Governments have stuck to these priority lists, with one notable exception.

Mr. Treacy

Has there been any deviation?

Mr. O'Malley

A very slight one that everyone would forgive. It did not occur in my time. When these lists were drawn up, local conditions and geographical conditions were taken into consideration. Deputies on both sides can argue ad nauseam as to why certain rivers in their constituencies are not being drained and as to why it will be so many years before they are drained. I admit Deputies are in an embarrassing position when they go out to meet their farmer constituents and try to explain to them that, because of the method and procedure adopted, the surveys and the publishing of the statutory requirements, and so on, it will be many years before their problems as far as drainage is concerned are solved.

I have had a certain experience in this matter. I subjected my very capable predecessor, Deputy J. Brennan, to a great deal of pressure. In Limerick, there is the huge catchment area of the Mulcair which drains some hundreds of thousands of acres. I could not understand why that area should not be drained. I have been in the Office of Public Works now for nearly two years. The first week I went in there, I sent for the file on the Mulcair and I said to the very able Commissioners: "Let us get down to this now and get work started. My constituents expect me to make an announcement about this shortly," but it had to take its place on the list.

It is still on the list but we are fast approaching these areas for survey. As for bouncing or hopping the list, it would not be very smart. Politically, it would be most unwise for any Government because if I jumped the list in Limerick, a colleague of mine in my own Party from Cork or somewhere else would create trouble. There is great credit due to successive Governments for agreeing that these lists should be prepared by conscientious and independent technical advisers and for sticking to these lists rigidly since.

The intermediate river schemes were mentioned. Four of these are selected every year. There are 400 possible schemes which are based on geographical distribution having regard to other large-scale schemes carried out, in progress or in contemplation. Schemes have been selected for the following counties: Cork, Sligo-Leitrim, Dublin, Waterford, Wexford, Donegal, Roscommon, Tipperary, Clare and Mayo. The Roscommon catchment selected is the Knockcroghery or Ballyglass and the scheme is now at the design stage. The County Cork scheme is the Upper Lee and the survey is starting shortly. As I pointed out already, a survey of the Boyne catchment has been carried out and a scheme is being designed. I also mentioned that the Suir is being surveyed. Surveys of the Boyle, which includes the Lung, will commence in the current year. The Dromore, mentioned by Deputy Dillon, is included in the portion of the Erne catchment for which a scheme is at present being designed. So far as the Suck scheme is concerned, as has been frequently indicated, this is linked with the major scheme for the relief of the Shannon flooding with no possible let-out clauses.

The Government have announced that the surveys recommended in the published joint report of the ESB and the Office of Public Works engineers, commonly known as the Rydell Report, will be commenced as soon as the staff required is available. That is not being evasive. I think the number of engineers mentioned was 30. If any Deputy would like to have an appreciation of our problem in regard to certain technical staff, I shall be only too glad either to explain it to him personally with my officials or to write to him in detail. It is not an easy problem. It is easy for Deputy McQuillan to stand up here and slag my Office for not getting this Shannon drainage under way before now but those are the facts.

Mr. A. Barry

Are we offering sufficient salaries to these professional men? Are they tempted to stay abroad or wherever they are?

Mr. O'Malley

I propose to deal with that matter. It is not entirely a question of salary.

Mr. Tully

But it is mainly of salary.

Mr. O'Malley

Not even that.

Mr. Gilhawley

Could the Parliamentary Secretary tell me when work on the Duff in Sligo-Leitrim will start?

Mr. O'Malley

Next week.

Mr. A. Barry

There is service for you now.

Mr. Tully

That is just because he asked.

Mr. O'Malley

I think the contract was signed. On this question of the shortage of engineers and the length of time required to complete a survey, to minimise the difficulties resulting from the inadequate supply of engineers, a scheme for the training of engineering technicians is being instituted. Deputies will recall that last year I mentioned architectural trainees. Even if we had a university in Limerick, in Clonmel, in Waterford, Athlone or in other cities, there is a high percentage of children whose parents cannot afford to send their children to such universities and even if they could, they might not be able to allow them to stay on for that length of time. I am talking about matters that obtain at the present time. This pilot scheme of ours started last year in respect of 20 architectural trainees has been quite successful. Last year, they were picked on the Leaving Certificate results. We have changed that this year. Last year maybe we were wrong because it was too high a standard. We have also reduced the age.

Mr. A. Barry

What is the age now?

Mr. O'Malley

Seventeen. In regard to these 20 architectural trainees who were selected on the results of the Leaving Certificate examination and personal interview, we have received great co-operation from the Bolton Street College of Technology. These trainees also get practical experience not only in the drawing office in the Office of Public Works but out on the job with one of the architects. The beauty of it is that they are paid on a yearly rising scale from the first week they take up employment with us. Therefore, instead of a parent having to pay digs for his child in Dublin, these children are being paid.

Mr. A. Barry

But they will sit for the examination and qualify in the normal way?

Mr. O'Malley

They will sit for the examination. If, in our opinion, they are not making the proper progress, we shall have to review the position. However, they can ultimately—I do not believe many of those 20 will—sit for the examinations of the professional body, the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland. The interesting point is that the State guarantees each one of these employment. I have digressed. I was speaking about similar courses which are starting this year for engineering technicians. A scheme for the training of engineering technicians is being instituted and we sincerely hope that when these technicians are available after a while—these young lads do not have to have served their full time—the survey programme can be accelerated. Some of our engineers are being used at present doing work it was never contemplated a professional engineer should do, such as plotting monotonous work that goes on month after month, year after year.

Mr. A. Barry

Good relations are being established with the professional organisations in all this?

Mr. O'Malley

Yes. We have consulted the professional bodies and the Chairman and Commissioners have always had the happiest relations with professional bodies. Our top technical advisers keep in constant touch with the professors in the appropriate Faculties.

The survey of a major catchment is an enormous task, involving hundreds of miles of channel, embankments and bridges, consideration of interference with property and rights of various kinds. I dwell on this in order to try to educate Deputies and explain it to them as I myself learned it. Since 1954, while in Opposition, I did not appreciate the difficulties involved and I now admit that my criticism was really unfounded to some extent. If Deputies go to the Library and read the debates on the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, they will see that on all sides it was urged that we should hasten slowly and, above all, preserve the rights of the small man as well as the big man when property was being drained and give him every opportunity to see what was happening and if his property was in danger, and to provide arbitration clauses and so on.

It takes quite a while to survey small plots to lay out labourers' cottages but in a major catchment hundreds of miles of channel are involved. Then there is the plotting of the survey, making the ordinary human errors, going back and checking. Then there is the designing of bridges, calculating the heights of arches and culverts and several hydraulic and other problems that have to be solved. The increased flow when the channel is cleared must be calculated and 101 other problems tackled.

With the object of increasing productivity on drainage work, it was decided to introduce as an experiment an incentive bonus related to outputs in the Broadmeadow scheme in County Dublin. In September-October, 1962, we applied the bonus scheme for the first time to men engaged in excavation work and in the period from November, 1962 to April, 1963 we extended it to manual labour gangs mainly engaged on bridge work. Last month, it was extended to the foremen and indirect staff, the fitters, the store staff, vehicle drivers and so on. More than 80 men are employed at Broadmeadow. The broad basis of the bonus scheme is the setting of agreed—that is the operative word in any bonus scheme — standard performances for the usual excavation and construction operations and the payment of standard bonuses to those who achieve standard performances. Standard bonuses vary from 27½ per cent. of the basic wage to 20 per cent. in the case of indirect staff. Where performances are above or below the standard, payments are increased or reduced as the case may be. If the performance does not reach a certain minimum level, bonuses are not payable. Bonuses for the indirect staff are related to the output of excavator and manual labour gangs.

The operation of this system is kept under close observation because it is an interesting exercise and Deputies will be interested to see how it works in this pilot scheme. No doubt Deputies will have in mind making representations that it should in time be extended to other areas where work has started. There has been an increase in the output of work and the workers will agree that they have got an appreciable amount in their weekly pay packets. We hope that the final result will be such as to justify the extension of the system throughout the country. This would not be a simple matter because, apart from the special training of personnel required to operate the system, the experience gained on the Broadmeadow scheme has been limited in scope. The work required in the catchment is relatively simple and does not require all the operations that would be required on a larger scheme.

Other points mentioned by Deputies I shall try to refer to but the Ceann Comhairle has ruled that the policy of improving Dun Laoghaire harbour is a matter for the Minister for Transport and Power. I want to explain to Deputies what has been done. Since 1957, the improvement of the mailboat pier has been done in stages. The point made by Deputy Lynch was that he asked if this new car ferry service comes into being, why should the Government provide the facilities? I mention this because I think the details I am giving will satisfy Deputy Lynch and so I am going into more detail. I was actually anxious to get the answer myself. The improvement of the mailboat pier was done in stages and up to 31st March last, £175,000 had been spent. A high level enclosure has been erected along the east side of the pier, around the nose of the pier and along about two-thirds of the west side. Two cranes for handling cars have been provided and improvements are being carried out to the approach road to the pier. A concourse is being provided at the entrance to the pier. A permanent shelter and new toilet accommodation have been erected on the landward side of the east approach road. A left luggage office and a new ESB substation have been erected at the landward end of the pier.

Mr. A. Barry

Could the Minister say for our information who does that kind of work in England? Who spends that money?

Mr. O'Malley

Our equivalent; whoever is the competent authority.

Mr. A. Barry

It would not be the railway company or the shipping company?

Mr. O'Malley

The equivalent of our harbour board.

Mr. T. Lynch

My information is that the port of Fishguard was created by the Great Western railway company. The same applies to the port of Rosslare. I pointed out to the Parliamentary Secretary last night that these installations were paid for by the transport companies previously. I am not opposed to the improvement of our harbours. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary—and he was interested in finding the answer himself—why the Government should have to pay 100 per cent of the cost of such installations. The transport companies using these places should pay a proportion of the cost, as well as paying their dock dues.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy stated that Fishguard and Rosslare were provided by the Great Western Railway. They were leased, and other lands were purchased by the railway company in certain areas. That property acquired by them was paid for by them. I have pointed out that Dún Laoghaire is a State harbour. That is an important point to bear in mind. Apart from the car ferry or anything like that, there is the question of the passengers coming in on the mailboat. An outcry has arisen—we have all read about it, particularly in the evening papers— about the conditions in Dún Laoghaire for passengers, particularly in the summer period — toilet accommodation, waiting rooms and the improvement of facilities generally for the passengers. That answers the Deputy's point that all this money is being spent by the State for a contemplated car ferry.

Mr. T. Lynch

The transport companies should pay something towards it.

Mr. O'Malley

I cannot argue that point. My personal opinion is that Dún Laoghaire has a tremendous impact on the tourist industry. Visitors get their first impression of the country when they arrive there, and it was very necessary therefore to improve these facilities. We intend to do further work there. There is the extension landward of the two-storey covered way on the west side of the pier to the exit gates with footbridge at end of pier; concourse at west exit gate; improvements to west approach road; completion of east approach road; construction of spring fendering at seaward end of mailboat pier; installation of heating system on pier. Some of these are subject to further conferences.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Parliamentary Secretary gave me some hope when he said that the State must be responsible for State-owned piers. I am aware the State own the pier at Dunmore East. That is some aid and comfort to me now.

Mr. O'Malley

There have been complaints for many years about transport conditions between here and England, about the boats, the trains, the piers, and everything else. It was decided we would put our own house in order and improve those facilities at Dún Laoghaire which came within our own control, while pressing for improvements in other directions Deputies are aware of. A very good job has been done in Dún Laoghaire. I do not think there is any necessity to make any apologies for it. We should be proud of it. It certainly has transformed the approach there. Last Saturday night week, there were letters from two people who had not been in Ireland for four years. They wrote back congratulating the people who carried out the improvements there.

It was mentioned that the work proposed for Duncannon, Wexford, is a scheme of improvement for berthage. It will be done by the county council, who will bear half the cost. The improvement scheme at Enniscrone will commence next week. In regard to Kilmore Quay, there has been a model investigation to determine the most effective scheme for the improvement of the harbour. The investigation is nearing completion and it is hoped a report will be available before the end of next month.

That investigation was carried out by Trinity College. Along with the Minister for Finance and some of our officials, I went to Trinity one day to look at the way they do these model investigations. It is quite fascinating. The simulation of the actual conditions in a harbour, the approaches, the different levels taken from the soundings, and the effect of the tides are all most enlightening. The information is invaluable to our designers when they come to prepare the actual scheme.

The improvement at Kilronan pier will be provided for from the Vote for Roinn na Gaeltachta. They have authorised the Office of Public Works to arrange for a boring survey and other preparatory works.

A number of Deputies raised the question of the salaries of engineers. Deputy McQuillan spoke about it at length in regard to drainage. I presume he is aware that the engineers in the recruitment grade went to arbitration last year and that the salaries now offered are as awarded by the arbitrator? At present something like £50 million a year is required to meet the salaries of State-paid personnel. I would be loath to ask the Government to add to that burden. Improvements in regard to certain conditions, increments allowed for experience and age, have vastly improved the income position.

Mr. A. Barry

Has there been any improvement in the intake of men?

Mr. O'Malley

Somewhat. We will be seeking more staff again shortly. As the Deputy says: "It is not by bread alone..." There is the social aspect as well. For instance, one knows an engineer in London and he says he would love to come back but where is he to get a house? There are all these domestic problems. There is more in it than the salary scales.

Mr. A. Barry

A number of them want to come back.

Mr. O'Malley

Anyone who has ever left Ireland wants to come back. I should say we cannot consider drainage engineers in isolation from the other categories. The question of recruitment was mentioned. Recruitment is through the Civil Service Commissioners in accordance with the Civil Service Regulation Act and there is nothing I or any Deputy can do about it here. The question of recruitment is one of agreed policy. Even so, our Chief Engineer, Mr. Cross, is in constant touch with the professors in the engineering faculties of the constituent colleges of NUI and of Trinity College on matters affecting the training of engineers.

Mr. MacCarthy

Could not engineering students on holidays be taken on to help things out?

Mr. O'Malley

They can, and they are. They have been very helpful and have themselves learned quite a lot. Each year a number of engineering students are employed during the vacation and some of them are thus induced to make their careers later on with the Office of Public Works. It is not an easy task at times to get a young man coming out of college, with ambitions to stay in Ireland if he can, to start off in the Board of Works. To copy a phrase of my colleague, Deputy Lenihan, the "image" of the Board of Works has become a kind of music hall joke. I saw in Time magazine recently the same criticism of the US State Department on the matter of the maintenance of public buildings. We are no better or no worse than any Government Department. We have our faults and we have our tribulations. Our Commissioners and our staff are only human.

Mr. T. Lynch

You are much better than the image.

Mr. O'Malley

The image is bad, I am afraid. The Minister for Finance, I think, would be very well advised to accede to future representations from my Department to give us authority to employ a public relations officer.

Mr. A. Barry

The Parliamentary Secretary is not a bad one himself.

Mr. O'Malley

After all, it is the public in the final analysis who pay for these things—for the preservation of national monuments, for such things as the Thomas Davis Statue, the National Gallery, the National Library and the matter I mentioned rather casually earlier, the inter-Departmental Committee on the Arts. There are one hundred and one other items relating to public buildings under our aegis and in respect of which there is great need for some kind of liaison with the public—someone who could talk to the public and to whom the public could talk and get information from. In other words, there is this need for a public relations officer.

Mr. A. Barry

What you want is an ombudsman in reverse.

Mr. O'Malley

I was about to use that word but I was not too sure of its pronunciation. I am very glad to be able to tell the House that a very high percentage of our staff recruitment in the recent past has been made up of Irish engineers who have been abroad and who have decided for themselves and their families to come back permanently here. They have been a tremendous acquisition from our point of view because of the experience they have gained elsewhere.

Mr. A. Barry

They are the men you want.

Mr. O'Malley

They can also be of great benefit to the young lads coming out of college who wish to make their career with us.

Going from drainage to the matter of our national monuments, a number of Deputies referred to particular monuments which they considered should be cared for in some way. Of course, a number of those could never be taken in State care at all because they would not be architecturally or aesthetically worthy of consideration. I get letters from time to time from obscure corners in my constituency, from persons whom we would term locally as thorny wires, the sort of individuals who have a kind of hankering after these things. A number of the matters I have looked into——

Mr. A. Barry

Were valueless, of course.

Mr. O'Malley

The conservation of monuments is not simply ordinary building work. Special skill is needed in the handling of the stone and the work is necessarily slow of execution. The best tribute one can pay to a completed job is that it will not be obvious any work has been done on it at all. The suitable men available for this type of highly-skilled work are hard to recruit and, accordingly, our programme on national monuments is full for the next few years. Additional monuments are taken in from time to time but these, of course, will not be embarked on at once. We are all aware of proposals for the setting up of a National Monuments Advisory Council and I have no hesitation in telling the House that the Government wholeheartedly agree with it. It would be presumptuous of me to anticipate the action or the decision of the Government but this question is crying out to high heaven for rectification.

Mr. A. Barry

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Malley

It is an important question covering our national heritage. This new proposal, of course, involves the provision of finance but when all matters are agreed, there will be revolutionary changes.

I should like to say a few words generally—I regret I have no notes on it—on the question of national monuments. I do not think there is a Deputy, from the youngest to the oldest, who has not got a very vital interest in national monuments. I should like to pay a particular tribute to the articles published in the four daily newspapers, the Cork Examiner, the Independent, the Press and the Times. They have gone into great detail in illustrated articles on ancient monuments and old houses, of both historical and architectural merit, and the interest with which the man-in-the-street followed these articles is quite fantastic. To be interested in such matters is no longer the prerogative of what we used look upon as an old fogey, an archaeologist. The matter is of such vital interest.

Many, of course, agree that more would be done for the preservation of the Irish language, and inculcating in our children a love of Ireland, by the restoration and preservation of these monuments than by a lot of other measures. Fortunately, the Minister for Education has been most interested in this matter and has given us every encouragement. I know that he hopes to have films made of the treasures in the National Museum which can be shown not only on Telefís Éireann but in Europe, the United States of America and Canada. Not only will these depict the treasures in the National Museum but treasures in other places such as the Book of Kells and pictures in our galleries and also they will show, in this cultural series, so to speak, our outstanding national monuments such as Clonmacnoise, Clonfert, Bunratty, Cashel and so on. His first anxiety, of course, is to show these films in our schools in Ireland to our own children. However, I do stress this point because I think there is a tremendous amount of interest in it and the press has played a noble part in this campaign. It is a most delightful section of a newspaper nowadays, to get away from a lot of things, and to read these very well written and beautifully illustrated articles in our daily newspapers which are to be highly commended.

I should like to pay particular tribute to my own Monuments Advisory Council whose praises have been unsung and who have done such tremendous work down the years, with very limited resources and also, of course, to those members of local authorities and archaeological societies in the country. They have done an enormous amount of good. Of course, this does not stop at television and films in the school. I have always been anxious that the study of our national treasures should be considered as an extra-mural subject, that the children of Limerick, Clonmel, Cork and all other places would know something about their own area before they left school. I do not think that any of us who were at school in Limerick were ever told about King John's Castle. Recently a member of the Council of Education asked me if I knew that Robert Bruce was crowned in King John's Castle. Did Deputy Barry know that?

Mr. A. Barry

I did, but I was a member of the Council of Education.

Mr. O'Malley

Was the Deputy a member of the Council? Well, I did not know that Bruce was crowned in King John's Castle. Of course, there were a lot of fellows crowned in it.

Mr. T. Lynch

Did the Parliamentary Secretary know about the colonel who was crowned with a blacksmith's sledge when he crossed the bridge?

Mr. O'Malley

I am just giving an example of my abysmal ignorance of one of the historic monuments in my own city. Children know about the Treaty Stone and that the date was 1691 but that is all. They are never taken on an excursion. I think there was one such proposal in relation to the Ballyneety area where Sarsfield blew up a siege train. There is great scope with regard to this matter and I am glad that the Minister for Local Government has consulted us about the new Town Planning Bill. We hope there will be close co-operation because I think that is a very good thing when we are talking about the preservation of ancient monuments and ancient Ireland and trying to impart to our children, as Deputy Barry said, an appreciation and love of trees and inculcate in them an abhorrence of the destruction of trees, or anything beautiful. The Town Planning Bill might seem a long way away from national monuments but we must remember that while we are anxious to preserve what has been left to us from the past, Deputies and members of local authorities and committees can be a very influential force with regard to some buildings of an aesthetically doubtful character erected in modern Ireland in our cities. I have seen, without mentioning any area, some buildings——

Mr. A. Barry

Hideous things.

Mr. O'Malley

—put up by——

Mr. T. Lynch

By State Departments, not the Parliamentary Secretary's.

Mr. O'Malley

Leave out the State —by so-called eminent architects. I have seen some streets in some of our cities which have not been improved, to put it mildly. Talking about co-operation between ourselves and those responsible for the Town Planning Bill, I remember reading an article by the late Professor Thomas Bodkin in which he brought out the fact that in the Place Vendome one could not change even a chimney cowl in one of those streets.

Mr. A. Barry

How wise they are.

Mr. O'Malley

Yes. When we get this authorisation shortly it could then be a question of the magic casements, for the interested parties, opening on the faery lands not so forlorn. When I came into office first my Chairman showed me an interesting proposition with regard to the son et lumière of Dublin Castle. The capital cost was high but the potential was higher. I think Mr. Vincent Dowling, the eminent actor and producer, and Senator Eoin Ryan got together on that and it was a tremendous concept. Then, again, even with the assistance of Bord Fáilte, our National Monuments Advisory Council did not get as far as we should like. A new vista immediately presents itself. I hope this question will be referred to again and not only in relation to Dublin Castle. Think of floodlighting and son et lumière in Cashel.

Mr. A. Barry

Hear, hear. Push on. The Parliamentary Secretary is on the right lines.

Mr. O'Malley

Bunratty has been mentioned from time to time. There is no possibility of reproducing so many Bunrattys annually, first of all, from the point of view of cost, but certainly an approach to that type of finish could be considered. It should not cost an awful lot of money.

Then there comes to mind the floodlighting of many of our old castles. Some of them are in good condition and have been maintained and some have been restored by the Office of Public Works. The floodlighting of these old castles, particularly those standing on a hill with a view from the distance, could be very effective. We need not necessarily look at all these things from the point of view of the tourist. There is our own enjoyment to be considered as well. These old castles are one of the very many attractions we have in Ireland. I am just pointing out what we can hope for.

I have a note here about the reroofing of Cashel. I think Deputy A. Barry mentioned it. There was a controversy between Frank O'Connor and other eminent writers and people interested in these things as to whether Cashel should or should not be reroofed. I have not any opinion on that.

Mr. A. Barry

The Parliamentary Secretary will have to compromise with the purists—the people who want to be completely absolute about this— that you should not do any modern work at all on an old building. But, if you want to keep it, you might have to do it.

Mr. O'Malley

It is a good thing to see criticism and——

Mr. A. Barry

And interest.

Mr. O'Malley

——and interest. That is the main worry.

Deputy Crinion mentioned silt deposit in the Boyne and some of its tributaries as a result of bog development work by Bord na Móna. That is correct. I understand an arrangement has been made between Bord na Móna and the county council responsible for the maintenance of the affected rivers which are in existing drainage districts under which Bord na Móna make some contribution towards annual maintenance. Our engineers are aware of this siltation and will take it into consideration when designing the scheme.

Deputy Treacy mentioned the River Suir. I think I have already dealt with the question generally of how a priority list was prepared many years ago. He may rest assured that there is no intention to alter the plan or to replace the River Suir on the priority list. It will not be passed over or deferred in any way. The engineering survey of the Suir catchment is in progress. The engineers have been on the ground since 1960. It is a very large catchment area and the collection of all the data necessary for the design of an arterial drainage scheme takes time.

Mr. T. Lynch

The people there consider that the land which would be reclaimed would be much better land than some of the land they have seen reclaimed in other areas.

Mr. O'Malley

That has been the claim by every deputation I have ever received on arterial drainage, on the inclusion of extra areas and on the desirability of expediting a programme. They have made the same claim, no matter what part of Ireland they came from. They said the land they were speaking about was the best land.

Mr. T. Lynch

They could claim it, all right, but the Parliamentary Secretary knows that it would not be.

Mr. Tully

After the drainage was finished.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Treacy spoke about the Suir. I told Deputy Davern the same thing before about the position. I pointed out to both of these Deputies that so much remains to be done on that scheme that I should not like to commit myself to a prophecy as to when the works will actually commence. I told Deputy Davern and Deputy Treacy that I proposed to see what could be done on the Suir by increasing some of the engineering staff. I promise I shall do the best I can.

Deputy Dillon was pressing me about the Boyle. As a matter of fact, he was not so much pressing me about the Boyle as inquiring about the Boyle and when the digging would start. What was the name of the book—When The Kissing Had To Stop? Deputy Dillon wanted to know when the digging would start. He was also pressing me about the Erne.

With regard to the Boyle, a scheme of works was carried out by the office of Public Works acting as agents for the Minister for Agriculture under the Land Reclamation Scheme. The scheme was limited to the Boyle river, the outfall from Lough Gara, the channel through Lough Gara, particularly a link between the two sections which would provide an outfall in respect of the Lung and the Breedogùe which flow into Lough Gara. There is no question of the work being stopped at any stage. The work was completed but it was always recognised that it was not a complete scheme and that the full benefit could not accrue until the Lung and the Breedogue were dealt with. They are all part of the Boyle catchment area.

What is now required is to proceed with the survey of the entire Boyle area. That survey will commence this year. I could not say when the digging will start. It was announced only a short time ago. The survey will start this year. If I say "as soon as possible", that means nothing. I could not say——

Mr. T. Lynch

Or "in the near future".

Mr. O'Malley

There is no point in saying it.

Mr. T. Lynch

Will it be within 12 months?

Mr. O'Malley

I do not know; I do not think so.

Mr. T. Lynch

Two years?

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Lynch is representing Deputy Dillon here. If I said one year, he would fly out that door and go down to Deputy Dillon——

Mr. T. Lynch

He will not. Deputy Dillon will read it in the Official Report.

Mr. O'Malley

There are enough people in trouble with the Roscommon Herald lately and I do not want to get into trouble there. The remarks by Deputy Jones were most constructive. He referred to the recruitment of labour. We have to recruit—it is not a question of what we should like to do—our labour from the employment exchanges. The local engineer notifies the exchange that he wants to take on a certain number of men. The exchange gives him a list of men, and he must select suitable men from that list. That is all about it. How the list is based is a matter for the Department of Social Welfare. It is the same all over the country. We must follow the exchange list and I do not think there is anything to be done about that.

Each year Deputy Dillon refers to the Dromore river on this Estimate. It has been decided that the Dromore river will form part of the Erne catchment scheme which has been surveyed and for which a scheme is being designed. It is quite true, as Deputy Dillon said, that when he was Minister for Agriculture, an ad hoc scheme was prepared for the Dromore river, even though it was part of the Erne catchment scheme, using as he said, two lakes as a balancing effect, to create a balancing reservoir.

It was proposed that our Office should do that scheme as agents for the Minister for Agriculture. That was a most unusual proposal. However, that does not matter. It was suggested that we should do it as agents for the Minister for Agriculture, not under the 1945 Arterial Drainage Act but under the Land Rehabilitation Scheme. That is a major job.

Mr. T. Lynch

The major idea was to get it done.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy talked about the Local Authorities (Works) Act. That is not within my province and I do not want to argue its merits or demerits. We reported to the Department of Agriculture on the scheme, and we pointed out that it would undoubtedly give partial benefits, but that the main point was that maintenance would be necessary. That was the point stressed by our experts in the report to the Department of Agriculture. There was no provision in the Land Rehabilitation Scheme for maintenance. There were schools of thought on these lines: "This is a very high capital expenditure. It will give partial relief. It will, in time, form part of the Erne catchment scheme, but all that capital expenditure will come to nought if there is no provision for maintenance."

It was decided by Deputy Dillon's successor not to proceed with the special scheme but to wait for the catchment scheme. So far as our portion in the 26 Counties is concerned, preparation of the scheme is proceeding normally, and can be carried out without the active cooperation of the authorities of the Six Counties. I may say in passing that they have been most cooperative at all times in regard to drainage and other State endeavours. We have had discussions with them on these matters and, as Deputy Dillon said, there is no reason to expect that they will not cooperate in the secondary part of the Erne catchment covering the rivers and streams which go over the Border, and which will follow on the scheme now in preparation but confined to the 26 Counties. The Dromore river will be dealt with in the present scheme.

Deputy P. Brennan wants the use of the Office of Public Works dredger for Arklow Harbour at a reduced rate. He says the Harbour Board have no money.

Mr. T. Lynch

I think the Parliamentary Secretary should try to meet him because people use that harbour, and money is poured into harbours that are not used by boats.

Mr. O'Malley

I would give the dredger to Deputy P. Brennan for nothing, but the Commissioners have a statutory obligation. If the Arklow Harbour Board got it for nothing, would they take it over from us, and are they sure what they might be inheriting? Seriously, we will see what we can do to facilitate Deputy P. Brennan.

In regard to the architectural trainees, the recruitment was done by the Civil Service Commissioners. There were 600 applications from which 20 trainees were selected. As I said, we are taking on 20 more this year, and we are waiting for approval of a similar scheme for trainee engineering technicians.

Mr. A. Barry

Do I understand that it is the intention of the Parliamentary Secretary to bring the trainees to the intermediate standard?

Mr. O'Malley

Secondary school intermediate standard?

Mr. A. Barry

No, the intermediate standard in the ordinary architecture course?

Mr. O'Malley

Yes, they would be quite competent to do building construction courses and drawing courses.

Mr. A. Barry

And design?

Mr. O'Malley

And design. As a matter of fact, as I pointed out, it is quite possible that two or three of the 20 will go on and take their final year in architecture. I do not want to confuse the Deputy. Perhaps I have misled him. During the course they are paid by our Office and they can go on to the final year. To answer the Deputy's question, many of them are quite capable of passing the intermediate.

Mr. A. Barry

Is there any danger of creating a hybrid?

The object is to create architectural technicians.

Mr. O'Malley

No danger at all.

Mr. A. Barry

A draughtsman, in a loose sense of the word?

Mr. O'Malley

"Draughtsman" would not be the correct title, I should imagine. He would have a more detailed knowledge of building construction generally, practical experience on jobs and of design and so on, than would a draughtsman.

Some time ago I received objections from Deputies and members of the public about the cards sent out by the Office of Public Works acknowledging receipt of letters. In future, these cards will be put into envelopes, for obvious reasons, particularly in rural Ireland.

Mr. Dolan

Will the reference number be given?

Mr. O'Malley

Yes. The reference number is on the card and the card will be put into an envelope.

Deputy Lynch referred to the total provision of £140,000 for major fishery harbours. It is expected that work will start this year in Killybegs, Dunmore East and Castletownbere.

Mr. T. Lynch

I have heard about Killybegs every year. That has been going on for the past eight years. The sum of £1 million must have gone into it.

Mr. O'Malley

It is expected that work will commence this year on Dunmore East.

Mr. T. Lynch

We will have to send up a rocket. We will put a man into orbit.

Mr. O'Malley

We hope to start work this year on Killybegs, Dunmore East and Castletownbere.

Mr. T. Lynch

I would remind the Parliamentary Secretary that Dunmore East is a State pier.

Mr. O'Malley

I would remind Deputy Lynch that Dunmore East came in in substitution for Passage East.

Mr. T. Lynch

I know that.

Mr. O'Malley

His representations were acceded to. Naturally, in the early stages, the expenditure will not be too great. What would the Deputy think the full cost of Dunmore East would be?

Mr. T. Lynch

About £500,000.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy would be wrong.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Parliamentary Secretary asked me and I bid.

Mr. O'Malley

In the first year, the expenditure will not be great. It is not known what the full cost of the scheme will be but it is expected that it will be over £¼ million. I could not say accurately.

Mr. Tully

You used to say £263,000 for Drogheda. Then it was conveniently forgotten. Maybe the same thing will happen in Dunmore East.

Mr. T. Lynch

It will not. The sum of £1 million must have gone into Killybegs.

Mr. O'Malley

Reference was made to overcrowding in Cork schools as soon as they are built. Deputy Galvin put a question last week to the Minister for Education about a school in Douglas. I do not recall the exact phraseology of the reply. It is suggested that the overcrowding can occur as a result of rapid changes in the population in particular areas.

Mr. A. Barry

Movement of population is responsible to a greater extent.

Mr. O'Malley

Movement of population, as Deputy Barry says.

Mr. A. Barry

Movement into the periphery.

Mr. Tully

And changes from generation to generation into newlybuilt areas.

Mr. O'Malley

This problem is not peculiar to Cork. The same difficulties have arisen in several places down the years. The Department of Education through their inspectors, in consultation with the school managers, make the best estimate they can of the size of school required and we design that school. There are cases where the estimate of the number of rooms required proves to be inadequate. That is the exception rather than the rule. I shall draw the attention of the Minister for Education to the observations made by Deputies in this matter.

Mr. T. Lynch

Yesterday I asked the Parliamentary Secretary if he would be sympathetic to the idea of inviting designs of sculptures or murals depicting the patron saint of a school.

Mr. O'Malley

I and my Office would certainly be most sympathetic towards that idea but in the first instance, it is a matter for the manager to put that proposal to the Department of Education. There is the question of the cost and the local contribution and there is the inevitable argument with regard to finish and what is contained in the school. As Deputy Lynch is aware, the Minister for Education, is most sympathetic, as Deputy Barry agrees, to any of these innovations which would help to brighten school surroundings.

Mr. A. Barry

The State should convey to the manager that that is a desirable and proper thing to do.

Mr. O'Malley

I shall bring the point to the attention of the Minister and I am sure he will deal with it on his Estimate. I should like to point out that in making the estimate of user and size of school, we try to make due allowance for anticipated increased demand for accommodation. I was talking about Deputy Lenihan's phrase as to the image of a music hall joke being projected in reference to the Board of Works and arguing in favour of a public relations officer in my Department.

Mr. T. Lynch

He will be mad at you now.

Mr. O'Malley

In regard to the criticism expressed by some Deputies of the increase in the number of civil servants, when I was speaking on the Budget recently I pointed out that in the main the reason for the increase was the increased activity of certain Departments of Government, according as new proposals arose and that numbers were absorbed in that way. The 20 architectural technicians we took on last year are classified as civil servants but as far as my Office is concerned it would be well to remember that apart from the architects and engineers, we have not taken on one more civil servant——

Mr. A. Barry

Apart from the professionals.

Mr. O'Malley

—since 1950. That is a policy with which I totally disagree and I hope the Minister for Finance will sanction an increase in my staff. We have got a tremendously increased responsibility since 1950. A great many things have been transferred to us. We have to give a great deal of advice. We are the advisers for every Department of State in certain respects. We have the fishery harbours as our responsibility now and we shall have to implement the new Coast Protection Bill. A great many things have devolved on us in the past 13 years. That in itself shows the tremendous increase there has been in productivity in the Office of Public Works.

I could do with a great many more civil servants and I hope I shall not be subjected to any criticism if I succeed in convincing the Minister for Finance of the necessity for increasing the staff in the Office of Public Works. I do not hold any brief, any more than anybody else, for civil servants; we all have our own ideas about them. They are a much maligned body. I think it is grossly unfair to have quite a number of men doing excessive overtime.

We have our problems and many of the criticisms made from time to time are justifiable. On the whole, we have in the Office of Public Works a very capable outfit. Improvements are required and we are constantly striving to achieve them. The standard of our professional people is very high indeed. As I said some time ago, it was a revelation to me to find the Dutch, the Americans and the British sending their engineers to us for advice on arterial drainage and other projects. That is a tribute to the Irish universities and the Office of Public Works.

I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the House for the manner in which the Estimate was received and for the kind remarks Deputies made. If there is any matter I have overlooked, I shall read through the debate, have the items considered, and write to the individual Deputies.

Mr. T. Lynch

There is just one small item.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The debate has been a very long one.

Mr. T. Lynch

This is important because it relates to humble people. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that we should put our own house in order; we have a very good cleaning staff here but the instruments of their care are primitive. I draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to that.

Mr. Tully

There is one small point. I referred to the question of the five-day week for employees on arterial drainage. Last year the Parliamentary Secretary settled a very thorny problem by arranging a conference at which agreement was reached. Perhaps he would do the same again now.

Mr. O'Malley

I shall look into that.

Mr. T. Lynch

In view of the courteous manner of the Parliamentary Secretary, I wish to withdraw the motion to refer back.

Motion "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration," by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.