Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Industry and Commerce. – Dáil Éireann (17th Dáil) – Wednesday, 22 May 1963

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Industry and Commerce.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

Tairgim :

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £2,987,800 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1964, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Tionscail agus Tráchtála, lena n-áirítear Seirbhísí áirithe atá faoi riaradh na hOifige sin, agus chun Ildeontais-i-gCabhair a íoc.

Ag caint dom ar an Meastachán anuraidh, dúirt mé gurbh é an ní ba shuntasaí a thárla i rith na bliana sin iarratas a bheith déanta againn chun dul isteach í gComhphobal Eacnamaíochta na hEorpa. Mar is eol do na Teachtaí, cuireadh ár n-iarratas ar gcúl go mór nuair a chlis ar iarratas na Breataine Móire cúpla mí ó shin. Mar sin féin, tá an ghluaiseacht chun an tsaorthrádáil a chur i réim, ina gné thábhachtach i gcónaí dár saol eacnamaíoch agus táimid ag leagan amach ár gcúrsaí eacnamaíochta ar chuma go mbeadh sé níos éasca againn dul isteach sa Chomhphobal cibé uair a bheidh sin indéanta. De réir an bheartais sin laghdaíodh formhór ár ndleachtanna 10 faoin gcéad i dtosach na bliana seo agus déanfar leibhéal na dleacht-chosanta a laghdú tuilleadh i ndeireadh na bliana. Tá bearta á ndéanamh freisin chun cuid de na sriantaí cainníochtúla ar allmhairí a chur ar ceal.

Chuaigh an méadú ar tháirgeadh tionscal agus ar an bhfostaíocht chun cinn i rith na bliana. Thosaigh cuid mhaith gnóthas tionscail ar earraí a tháirgeadh i rith na bliana. Tá acmhainn fostaíochta is ionann agus tuairim is 5,000 oibrí ag na gnóthais sin. Ina theannta sin bhí roinnt monarcha nua eile á dtógáil agus táthar ag coinne leis go gcuirfidh siad sin fostaíocht ar fáil do 7,000 oibrí eile.

Sa bhliain 1962, thit ár n-onnmhairí de £6.5 milliún anuas thar an bhfigiúr buaice £180 milliún a sroicheadh i 1961. Tháinig de sin, i dteannta méadú de £12.3 milliún, an an méid a d'allmh-airíomar, go raibh £96.7 milliún de bharrachas allmhairísa chuntas, is é sin £18.8 milliún níos mó ná i 1961. Is é ba mhó ba chúis leis an laghdú ar onnmhairí laghdú ar luach an méid d'ainmhithe beo a d'onnmhairíomar. Cé nach cúis imní faoi láthair an méadú ar éagothroime na trádála inár gcoinne, is léir uaidh a riachtanaí atá sé go nglacfadh ár dtionscail páirt níos mó fós ag forbairt ár dtrádála ar an gcoigrích. Ina leith sin, be mhaith liom a lua go bhfuil tuilleadh airgid curtha ar fáil do Chóras Tráchtála lena chur ar a gcumas méadú ar na seirbhísí do ghnólachtaí a onnmhairíonn earraí.

Nor fhág an méid a rinneadh agus a thárla i dtús na bliana seo i leith lenár n-iarratas ar chomhaltas sa Chómhar-gadh, gur laghdaigh ar thábhacht saothar an Choiste um Eagrú Tionscail. Bunaíodh an Choisde chun suir-bhéireachtaí forleathana a dhéanamh ar ár gcuid tionscal agus chun grinn-mheas a dhéanamh ar na bearta ba ghá chun tionscail na hÉireann a oiriúnú le haghaidh iomaíochta níos géire ar mhargaí an bhaile agus ar an gcoigrích. Lean an Coiste ortha leis an saothar sin agus tá roinnt tuaras-scálacha suirbhéireachta foilsithe maraon le tuarascálacha eatramhacha a bhfuil baint ghinearálta acu le cúrsaí tionscail.

Ionas go mbeadh toradh fónta ar shaothar an Choiste, ní mór a chinntiú go ndéanfar gníomh de réir a moltaí. Is chuige sin a bhunaigh mé brainse nua i mo Roinn-se ar a dtugtar an Brainse um Atheagrú Tionscail. Tá sé ar cheann de phríomh-aidhmeanna an bhrainse sin spreagadh a chur le bunú Comhairlí Oiriúnúcháin i gcúrsaí tionscail de réir mar atá molta ag an gCoiste um Eagrú Tionscail. Tá roinnt comhairlí bunaithe cheana féin agus is deimhin liom gur fiú go maith iad a bheith ann.

Tá ag éirí go rí-mhaith i gcónaí leis an Údarás Forbartha Tionscail sna hiarrachtaí atá á ndéanamh acu rann-pháirtíocht sheachtrach i dtionscail na hÉireann a chur chun cinn. I gcaitheamh na bliana seo caite tosaíodh ag táirgeadh earraí i dtuairim 30 tionscal nua lena bhfuil baint ag dreamanna seachtracha. Ina theannta sin bhí 50 éigin togra os comhair an Údaráis i ndeireadh an Mhárta seo caite, le haghaidh bunú tionscal nua agus bhí siad sin chun cinn go mór.

Tá mórthábhacht i gcónaí le deontais tionscail mar ábhar gríosaithe chun tionscail nua a bhunú agus i gcaitheamh na bliana seo caite cheadaigh An Foras Tionscal deontais £1½ milliún ar fad le haighaidh scéimeanna tionscail sna limistéir neamhfhorbartha. Fágann sin go bhfuil beagnach £7 milliún ar fad curtha ar fáil faoi chomhair na ndeon-tas sin agus tá súil go gcuirfear fostaíocht ar fáil do thuairim 12,000 duine. Cuireadh £2 mhilliún ar fáil anuraidh chun tionscail a bhunú las-muigh de na limistéir neamhfhorbartha agus fágann sin go bhfuil beagnach £7 milliún san iomlán curtha ar fáil le haghaidh deontas faoin scéim sin. Meastar go bhféadfaidh sé sin fostaíocht a thabhairt do thuairim 17,000.

In the Book of Estimates, the net Estimate of £4,481,800 for this financial year compares with a sum of £4,259,460 granted in 1962/63—including three Supplementary Estimates totalling £1,170,000—and shows an increase of £222,340 compared with the sum granted in 1962/63.

The principal increases in the Estimates for the present financial year are in the provisions for Institute for Industrial Research £47,000; Córas Tráchtála £65,000; Industrial Development Authority £43,429; Foras Tionscal £1,000,000; Technical Assistance £120,000 and New York World's Fair £190,000. To these must be added increases on other services, £23,515, and a decrease of £53,346 in the Appropriations in Aid Subhead which is equivalent to an increase in the net grant. Total increases in 1963/64 thus amount to £1,542,290.

The principal decreases are in the provisions for Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta, £950,000, for which no provision is made in 1963/64 and St. Patrick's Copper Mines, £320,000, for which only a token sum of £10 is provided under Subhead R. in 1963/64. Decreases in other subheads amount to £49,950. Total decreases in 1963/64, therefore, amount to £1,319,950. The net increase in the Estimate for 1963/64 compared with the actual sum granted in 1962/63 is, therefore, £222,340.

The gross national product for the year 1962 shows an increase of about 2½ per cent compared with 1961 and the industrial sector of the economy has made a substantial contribution to this increase. The provisional index of the volume of production—to base 1953=100—of manufacturing industry was 141.7 in 1962 compared with 135.1 in the year 1961. This regular and upward trend in industrial production is a very encouraging feature of our economy and it reflects amongst other things, the success of our efforts to attract new industrial enterprises to this country. I hope that the measures which are being taken to promote the adaptation of Irish industry to meet the competitive conditions which will prevail in a situation in which international trade will be freer will result in a further increase in the volume of our industrial output. An improvement in the competitive efficiency of our manufacturing industry is capable of yielding substantial benefits in relation to production both for the domestic and export markets.

Our industrial advance in 1962 made itself felt also in the realm of employment and it is encouraging to be able to record that the number of persons engaged in industry in 1962 exceeded 161,000—an increase of nearly 5,000 compared with the previous year.

The year which has recently ended was an important one from the standpoint of industrial development in Ireland. More than 40 important new industrial undertakings—including extensions of existing industries—went into production. This represents an aggregate capital investment of over £7,000,000 and an employment potential of some 5,000 workers. In addition, more than 30 factories were in course of construction last year, which, it is hoped, will eventually provide employment for a further 7,000 workers.

In the past 12 months a considerable number of proposals for the creation of new industries were placed before my Department and the Industrial Development Authority. I would estimate that about 70 of these proposals have reached a sufficiently advanced stage to be able to say that new industries are likely to emerge.

I am glad to be able to report that the Industrial Development Authority continues to meet with considerable success in its efforts to promote external participation in Irish industry. During the past year, nearly 30 new industries involving participation by external interests went into production in different parts of the country. These new enterprises represent a capital investment of about £5,000,000 and they have an employment potential of 4,000 workers. Apart from industries already established, the Authority had before it, at the end of March last, some 50 proposals for the establishment of new industries which had reached a fairly advanced stage, and we may hope to see many of these industries commence production in the present year.

These new undertakings have been established with the participation by industrial interests in USA, Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Switzerland. Most of the industries are engaged in production for export markets and we may expect to see in the years to come further substantial developments in the volume of our industrial exports to external markets.

In its efforts to develop a full appreciation abroad of the advantages available to foreign industrialists in Ireland, the Industrial Development Authority is increasing and reorganising its representation abroad. This should have the effect of making the Authority's promotional efforts even more successful in future years and should result in the establishment of many more sound industrial projects which will contribute to the success of our industrial drive.

Industrial grants have continued to play an important role as an incentive for the establishment of new industrial projects. In the past financial year, An Foras Tionscal approved grants totalling £1,500,000 for projects located in the undeveloped areas. This brings the total provision for these grants since the inception of the scheme to nearly £7 million. Of this amount, grants totalling £4 million have been paid up to the 31st March, 1963, leaving commitments amounting to something under £3 million to be met in future years. The capital investment involved in the projects approved under the scheme now totals £17 million and employment will be provided for about 12,000 persons. Over 90 projects assisted by An Foras Tionscal are now in production in the undeveloped areas and 35 other projects, for which grants have been promised, are in different stages of development.

In the case of industries established outside the undeveloped areas, the total amount of grants approved last year exceeded £2 million, bringing the aggregate figure for grants under this scheme to £6.7 million. Of this amount, grants totalling £1.6 million were paid to 31st March, 1963, leaving outstanding commitments of over £5 million. The capital investment in approved projects amounts to nearly £30 million and it is expected that the employment content of these industries will be in the region of 17,000. Many of these industries will be engaged substantially in export business. Some 30 projects, which have been assisted by An Foras Tionscal, are now in production outside the undeveloped areas, while 45 other projects for which grants have been approved are in course of development.

In the year 1962 our exports showed a decline of £6.5 million from the record figure of £180 million reached in 1961. At the same time, our imports increased by £12.3 million. There was, therefore, an import excess on visible trade of £97.7 million in the year 1962 —an increase of £18.8 million compared with 1961. About three-quarters of the increase in imports is attributable to heavy imports of capital goods and raw materials for industry. The decline in exports is due in the main to a falling-off in the value of our exports of live animals. While the increase in our adverse trade balance on current account is not a cause for immediate alarm, nevertheless, it emphasises the necessity for industry to play an even more prominent role in the future, in so far as the development of our external trade is concerned.

The Restriction of Imports Act, 1962, authorises the Government to take corrective action in cases in which particular countries are in serious imbalance of trade with us. As I explained when introducing the Bill last year, some of the countries which are a source of particular concern are Eastern European countries, whose trading relations are controlled by the State and with which we have a heavy adverse trade balance. The possibility that action under the Act may have to be taken has had to be conveyed to the authorities of the countries concerned, and the necessity for bringing trade between us and them into reasonable balance has been emphasised. Some of the countries in question have now achieved more satisfactory trading relations with us, but there has been little or no improvement where other countries are concerned. This matter is one which I have under regular examination, and if there should not be an improvement in the state of trade, I shall have no alternative but to take measures under the Act which will restrict the level of imports from the countries in question.

The Committee on Industrial Organisation, which was formed in 1961, has continued to carry on comprehensive surveys of the industrial sector and to make a critical appraisal of the measures which may be needed to adapt the different sectors of industry to more intensive competition, both in the home and export markets. The Committee on Industrial Organisation has arranged for a survey of 24 industries. Already, reports have been published on a number of industries, including cotton, linen and rayon, footwear, paper and paper-board, motor vehicle assembly and fertilisers. Further reports will be coming along shortly.

In addition to survey reports on individual industries, four interim reports of general application to industry have been published by the Committee on Industrial Organisation. One of these reports deals with the form of State assistance to be granted to industry to enable it to adapt itself to free trade conditions. Another deals with the subject of joint export marketing. The third report concerns itself with the creation of Adaptation Councils to promote measures of rationalisation and co-operative effort in industry, while the fourth deals with the subject of industrial grants. The Government have accepted the general principles which underlie the reports.

While the Committee on Industrial Organisation was set up primarily in the context of our application for membership of the Common Market, the altered circumstances which now obtain do not detract in any degree from the importance of the Committee's work. The need for Irish industry becoming fully competitive is as urgent as ever. In fact, I might say that the need is even more urgent now. Following the breakdown of the Brussels negotiations, the EFTA member countries are adopting an accelerated rhythm of tariff reductions which will mean that the removal of tariff barriers within that trading group will have been completed in the year 1966. The EFTA member countries will thus have access to the British market on terms which will rapidly become as favourable as our own. Clearly, therefore, the British market will become more and more competitive and Irish exporters must recognise this and prepare themselves for the new situation with the minimum of delay. Apart from competition on the British market, Irish exporters must appreciate the necessity for preparedness to meet keener competition by industries established in member countries of EFTA, some or all of which may be partners with us in an expanded European Economic Community.

The findings of the Committee on Industrial Organisation in relation to individual industries have been accepted almost in their entirety by the industries concerned. In order that the Committee's work should bear fruit, it is necessary to ensure that action is taken on the basis of the findings and recommendations of the Committee. It was for the purpose of ensuring that this is done that I set up in my Department a new Branch, known as the Industrial Reorganisation Branch, whose primary function is to follow up the industry reports of the Committee on Industrial Organisation and to see that action is taken to put the Committee's recommendations into effect.

The primary responsibility for adapting an industry to freer trade conditions must always rest on the industry itself, acting individually and co-operatively. The policy of the Industrial Reorganisation Branch is to encourage and assist industry to do what is necessary to fit itself for the conditions of freer trade which lie a short distance ahead. The principal means which the Branch has adopted to this end has been the encouragement of the establishment of Adaptation Councils within industry in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee on Industrial Organisation. The Adaptation Council in a particular industry is intended to be a means whereby all the firms in the industry may supplement their individual efforts by co-operative action. It is an instrument of the industry itself and not of the Government but the Industrial Reorganisation Branch will work in close co-operation with Adaptation Councils.

There are already a number of Adaptation Councils in existence, and I can safely say that they are proving of very considerable value to those industries where they have been set up.

In order to facilitate industrial readaptation, special grant or loan assistance covering a substantial proportion of the cost is available from Foras Tionscal or the Industrial Credit Company. These grants or loans are available to cover expenditure involved in putting into effect specific recommendations made by the Committee on Industrial Organisation for the reorganisation of particular industries. They would be available also to meet part of the cost of reorganisation of single industries which have not been surveyed by the Committee on Industrial Organisation. Schemes for the readaptation and reorganisation of industry, which may be worked out under Adaptation Councils, could also qualify for financial assistance. Some time ago I expressed disappointment at the comparatively limited number of applications for grants or loans that had been made up to then. I am glad to be able to say now that there has been a considerable improvement in the position. Of the applications for special grants that have been made, approximately one-third relate to capital expenditure programmes exceeding £50,000 in each case and over one half the total cases relate to capital expenditure programmes exceeding £25,000 in each case. It follows, therefore, that grants are being sought for significant expansion. More than 75 per cent of the expenditure relates to plant and machinery which is an indication of planning for quick results through substantial expansion of output and for increased efficiency through plant modernisation. An important aspect is that the number of applications in relation to particular industries shows that a sizeable proportion of the undertakings engaged in them have sought grants. I may add that many of the firms who have applied for these special grants are already regarded as being amongst the more efficient units in their respective fields. They have shown excellent example to others and have displayed a very commendable sense of urgency in their efforts towards expansion and increased efficiency. In this connection I would like to repeat that these financial aids for industrial reorganisation will be available for a limited period only, that is up to 31st March, 1965.

As Deputies are aware, our application for membership of the Common Market received a serious setback when the British negotiations for entry broke down some months ago. While there is little prospect of early entry into the European Economic Community, nevertheless, we must hope that the movement towards Western European economic integration will continue and that the situation will ultimately develop in a way which will permit of our becoming a member of the European Economic Community.

We are directing our economic planning in such a way as to facilitate our entry into the Community whenever that should prove practicable. Whatever may develop, it seems probable that we shall have to prepare ourselves for the advent of freer trade conditions. The momentum towards industrial efficiency which was developed against the background of impending entry into the Common Market must not be lost and, in order to emphasise the importance which the Government attach to this, measures have already been taken and other measures will be taken in time to come to modify the structure of industrial tariffs and quotas. There has already been an "across the board" tariff reduction of 10 per cent and a further reduction in tariff levels will be made at the end of the present year. Steps are being taken also to remove quantitative restrictions in cases where the industries concerned are judged to be capable at this stage of carrying on successfully with the alternative aid of tariff protection. Where quota protection is being maintained for the present, the amount of the quota will be increased, except in the case of certain industries where special circumstances obtain.

Discussions have taken place recently with the British Government for the purpose of reviewing the trading arrangements between the two countries in the light of developments in Western Europe. The discussions have not advanced beyond the preliminary stage at the moment. It may be presumed that any alterations in trading relations which result from these discussions will not be of a kind which would create difficulties for us later on in the event of our entry into the Common Market.

Our application for membership of the GATT was left in abeyance pending the outcome of our application for membership of the EEC. The possibility of GATT membership is now being reconsidered in the light of our international trading situation generally.

In an effort to encourage increased efficiency, I decided last year to extend considerably the scope of the Technical Assistance Grants Scheme and to increase the size of the grants which would be payable. I am glad to say that this has resulted in a quick response on the part of industry and a large number of firms have applied for grants for the engagement of consultants and for attendance at training courses and study visits abroad.

An Cheard Chomhairle made considerable progress during the past year in implementing its policy on apprenticeship which was published in December, 1960. This policy requires that there should be a suitable educational qualification for entry to apprenticeship, a reasonable but realistic approach to the intake of apprentices, a programme for training on-the-job which will ensure that apprentices can reach a proper standard of skill, release of apprentices from work for attendance at technical school courses, a review of the length of apprenticeship in the light of improved arrangements for practical and theoretical training, and supervision of the progress of apprentices particularly by a system of tests in trade practice and theory during and at the end of apprenticeship.

An Chomhairle has brought under the scope of the Apprenticeship Act, 1959, the trades of motor mechanic, electrician and the trades in the furniture industry and has established statutory apprenticeship committees for them. It has also appointed supervisors for these trades. These are technical experts one of whose functions is to assist in the preparation and implementation of suitable training programmes. The statutory apprenticeship committees and An Chomhairle have agreed on minimum educational qualifications for entry into apprenticeship in the trades with which the committees are concerned and these qualifications are in line with An Chomhairle's policy. The qualifications have been brought into force in the case of the trade of motor mechanic, and it is expected that they will be applied in the case of the electrical and furniture trades on 1st September, 1963. A suitable educational qualification is the foundation stone of any sound apprenticeship system. It has been represented to me that this may present difficulties in the case of boys from rural districts where technical school facilities are not conveniently available. I am satisfied, however, that most areas in the country are now reasonably well served by technical schools and the numbers are being added to. I am sure that, in the case of boys coming from the few areas where facilities are lacking, An Chomhairle will be prepared to take a reasonable view of the educational requirement. The Apprenticeship Committees for the designated trades, having disposed of the educational qualification, are now considering other aspects of apprenticeship, for example the preparation of rules for training on the job and the availability of facilities for apprentice training in the technical schools.

Voluntary apprenticeship committees have been set up for the engineering and metal trades in the country as a whole, for the building trades in Dublin, Cork and Waterford, the printing trades outside Dublin and the trade of dental technician. These Committees have made substantial progress in getting An Chomhairle's policy implemented on a voluntary basis in advance of designation under the Act, particularly in such matters as recommending a suitable educational qualification for entrants to the trades and arranging for apprentice training courses in technical schools. Steps are being taken to recruit apprentice supervisors for the engineering and building trades as a preliminary to bringing these trades within the scope of the Act.

In the course of the past year the report by the Fair Trade Commission of their inquiry into resale price maintenance in the supply and distribution of cookers and ranges was published. The recommendations in the Report were accepted by me and an Order embracing the recommendations was made in July, 1962. A Bill confirming the Order was passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas and the Order is now law.

The Commission also furnished the report of their inquiry into the supply and distribution of hand knitting yarn and nylon stockings in which they recommended that resale price maintenance by a supplier in relation to the sale of hand knitting yarns be prohibited. The recommendations in the report were embodied in an Order made by me in November, 1962, which was confirmed by the Oireachtas in March last.

The Order, made in 1961, embodying the Commission's recommendations in the report of their inquiry into the supply and distribution of motor spirit and motor vehicle lubricating oil was amended, in a minor aspect, by an amending Order in April, 1962. Both Orders were confirmed shortly afterwards and are now law.

During the year, the Commission continued to keep under review the operation of the Restrictive Trade Practices Orders relating to the grocery trade. Representations made by the trade regarding certain aspects of the sale and pricing of groceries were considered by the Commission.

The Commission's intervention was sought for the purpose of solving manufacturers' and traders' problems regarding the supply and distribution of goods not covered by Fair Trading Rules or Orders. The Commission continue to advise and assist in the solution of such problems.

Following its reorganisation in 1961 and 1962, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards is now expanding its activities on a broad front. The recruitment of personnel for the three new laboratories is in hands, and the provision of the necessary equipment is being completed. Among the new activities proposed by the Institute is a field advisory scheme under which highly qualified technologists will visit individual firms for the discussion of technical problems. The service will operate mainly in the textile and engineering fields. The Institute is also improving its scholarship facilities and providing assistance for the development and exploitation of inventions. The other new activities of the Institute include the holding of "Open Days" and seminars for particular industries, the purpose of which is to develop a closer liaison between the Institute and industry and to encourage firms to avail themselves more fully of the vastly improved services it can now provide. A recent decision to establish divisional boards to look after the special interests of particular industrial sectors will also help to promote this objective. The Institute also organises visits abroad for industrial and management personnel to enable them to study new industrial processes.

Interest in mineral exploration continued at a high level throughout the past year. Several hundred prospecting licences have now been granted in respect of widely-dispersed areas in whose mineral potentialities people have shown an interest.

Exploration of the mineral deposits at Tynagh, County Galway, was continued during the past year by Irish Base Metals, Limited, a subsidiary of Northgate Exploration Limited of Toronto, Canada. A State mining lease will shortly be granted to the company to enable it to develop the mineral deposits on a commercial scale.

During the past year, the American companies engaged in exploration for oil and natural gas in this country continued their work. They drilled the first test well last August near Trim, County Meath, and since then they have drilled in widely spaced locations in Meath, Clare, Cavan and Kilkenny. No substantial source of oil or natural gas has been revealed, but drilling is continuing.

The position of the copper mines at Avoca was discussed at length in the course of a debate in this House last July on the occasion of a Supplementary Estimate. The position at the mine subsequently deteriorated to such an extent that production could not continue and the Government had no option but to put the mine on a care and maintenance basis. In the following months, a firm of consultants was engaged to carry out an expert assessment of the mine. The report which was furnished to me some little time ago is a very comprehensive document covering all aspects of the Avoca operations. It is now being examined, and a decision concerning the future of the mines will be taken as soon as possible.

In the sphere of industrial relations, one of the outstanding events of last year was the convening of the first plenary session of the National Employer/Labour Conference, representing employers and workers on the national level. The social and economic importance of the work undertaken by enlightened and progressive interests on both sides of industry does not require to be emphasised.

Deputies will be aware of the importance of the work being discharged by the Labour Court and of the part it has played over the years in maintaining industrial peace. The Court has not yet presented its report for the year 1962, but I may, perhaps, be permitted to anticipate it and to make some comments on wage and salary trends.

The movements for a reduction of weekly working hours without loss of pay, accompanied in many cases by a demand for a five-day week, continued during the past year and settlements were reached which were in line with those negotiated during the previous year. Happily, settlements were reached on both of these issues without any general recourse to industrial action by the workers.

In 1962, wage rates of manual workers continued to be adjusted upwards by amounts which followed closely the level of increases which had become established in 1961, under what has become known as the "eighth round" of wage increases. Some groups of workers who, early in 1961, negotiated new wage rates which were lower than the rates subsequently secured by other groups, sought to obtain the balance of the increase to which they felt entitled. Settlements in these cases were negotiated on the basis of the higher rates which had been conceded generally.

Salaried and clerical workers' claims outstanding at the end of 1961 were the subject of negotiations resulting in settlements in line with those reached in the previous year. These were of the type which provided for a revision of the salary scale structure, with varying increases at different points on the scale.

As Deputies are aware, the Government, being concerned to avoid the damage to the national economy which could result from national production failing to keep pace with increases in incomes, published a White Paper which directed the attention of all sections of the community to the dangers inherent in the widening gap between incomes and productivity. The White Paper has been the subject of lengthy debates in the House and I do not think that it is necessary to discuss the subject again. Meetings have been arranged with worker and employer interests with a view to finding a method by which an objective assessment of the economic position and potentialities may be made from time to time so as to assist those who have responsibilities for settling wage and salary rates in private employment in establishing a more orderly relationship between income increases and growth of national production.

There is an increase this year in the grant in aid for Córas Tráchtála which reflects the wider services offered by the Board to exporting firms.

In addition to their established services, such as market surveys, trade missions and trade displays, they have undertaken at my request the development of joint-export marketing following the recommendation made in the second interim report of the Committee on Industrial Organisation. Additional funds have been made available for this purpose.

The Board's functions in relation to Industrial Design have been more clearly defined. The schemes already initiated providing for grants for the specialised training abroad of designers already in employment with Irish firms and for the engagement of designers on a consultancy basis will be continued. I would be glad to see greater interest being displayed by Irish firms in these and other schemes operated by the Board. I may mention at this stage that, as the Minister for Education recently announced, a Design Council is about to be established and my Department and the Department of Education, as well as An Córas Tráchtála, are in close co-operation with each other in this respect.

Among the useful publications made available by Córas Tráchtála recently is the Irish Export Dictionary in three languages which should prove helpful in stimulating exports.

When I presented a Supplementary Estimate to the Dáil last December, Deputies on all sides of the House welcomed the Government's decision to participate in the New York World's Fair and emphasised the desirability that our exhibit would be an adequate and dignified portrayal of Ireland. At that time I was not in a position to give the Dáil more than a general idea of what our exhibit would consist of, namely, a presentation of an image of Ireland under the broad classification of culture, economic development and tourism. Since that time, the principal features of the Irish pavilion have been worked out and Deputies will have seen the perspective drawing of the pavilion which is now on view outside the Dáil Library. The building, the entrance to which is directly opposite the United States pavilion, is, I think, quite distinctive in design and should make a favourable impression.

In explanation of some of the more prominent features of the building as shown in the drawing, I should mention that it is proposed to enclose our entire site area with a decorative wall made of Irish stone and also that the central cone-shaped area shown will accommodate a large Celtic cross which will be the focal point of the exhibit. Within the pavilion the exhibit will consist of various displays presenting in an attractive and dignified way Ireland's essential cultural, historical and economic features. The details of the display are at present being worked out by our architect and exhibition designer but the plans have not yet reached the stage where I could be more specific about them.

The development work of Min Fhéir Teoranta has continued in the past 12 months, and the first growth of grass produced by the company on bogland at Geesala, County Mayo, has been very promising. Unforeseeable adverse circumstances, especially the inclement weather in the early part of 1963, has caused the company's grass drying programme to fall somewhat behind schedule, but it is hoped that the production of grassmeal will start this summer.

The civil engineering work on the factory site of the nitrogenous fertiliser factory at Arklow has now commenced. Plant and machinery is on order and delivery is expected later this year. The factory will be ready for commissioning by the end of 1964 and production ought to commence about March, 1965.

If I may conclude with a few general comments, I should like to say that I think that last year was a year of achievement. New industrial development and expansion reached a notable level; a further increase was recorded in the volume of industrial production, employment in industry has risen to a new level, and important measures have been put in hands to facilitate the rapid reorganisation of industry and to promote efficiency. These developments are bound to have a very favourable impact on the national economy in the years which lie ahead.

Mr. Cosgrave

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

In considering the industrial and economic situation and the review which has been made by the Minister in introducing this Estimate, it should be borne in mind that at present one of the matters requiring very close attention and careful consideration is the question of industrial relations. In order to have harmony in industry so that effective progress may be made without unnecessary disruption of production or of the working of individual industrial concerns, it is essential that proper, effective and harmonious arrangements should be operative for the purpose of enabling industrial relations to be carried on without unnecessary disruption or setbacks.

It is desirable that this problem should be considered during a period of industrial peace. When a strike or disruption from some other cause occurs, the most strenuous efforts are made to settle the difficulties and these efforts are generally followed by expressions of opinion to the effect that every effort will be made in the future to avoid such happenings, or on the other hand, comments are made expressing concern about how such events occur. It is for these reasons I believe very serious and careful consideration should now be given to the problem of industrial relations here. Undoubtedly, because of the very nature of the problem, the matter has been the concern of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Labour Court. In addition, the establishment last year of the joint employer-labour conference marked a decisive step forward and, because of that progressive action by both the Federated Union of Employers and the Congress of Trade Unions, many had hoped that a satisfactory system would be evolved.

In view of the establishment of that conference, it seemed to me that the publication of the White Paper dealing with the pay pause, without prior consultation with that body or with either of the organisations represented in it, was to say the least of it unwise. That situation was handled in a wholly inept fashion. It is not suggested that the Government have not prime responsibility for deciding national policy and announcing decisions irrespective of what particular parties may consider, but the sensible approach in a matter of this sort appears to me to be, first of all, to get the goodwill, if possible, of all concerned, and certainly the understanding by those directly concerned; the likely consequences of an unfavourable reaction on their part would seem to me to warrant prior consultation with both the Federated Union of Employers and the Congress of Trade Unions. The fact that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce subsequently consulted both these bodies may, however, repair some of the damage done because of the manner in which the White Paper was published.

It is worth considering, I believe, what has been accomplished elsewhere, not merely from the point of view of industrial relations generally but also from the point of view of the effect of these industrial relations on the economy. Because of our close proximity to Britain, industrial relations here tend to follow to some extent the pattern of industrial relations there or, at any rate, to be influenced by them. Let us look at some of the countries in Western Europe in which it has been possible to evolve a reasonably satisfactory system of industrial relations. Most of these countries have undoubtedly a longer industrial tradition than we have and, therefore, their industrial relations have evolved naturally as against being superimposed on the economy.

The development of industrial relations in the Netherlands and Sweden has been remarkably satisfactory. The Swedish federation of trade unions and the Swedish employers federation have evolved a system which, through direct Government participation, operates quite satisfactorily. In Sweden, wage contracts are fixed for a certain period. They are reviewed at intervals. Negotiations carried on directly result in what is called a "frame agreement" covering the proposed overall wage increase and allowing for differentials between different groups; it may be agreed that particular industries will secure a special differential on top of the joint agreement. Care is taken to see that any agreement arrived at corresponds with the terms of the "frame agreement".

In the Netherlands, the arrangement is different. There bodies responsible for the formation of a wages policy have a central planning bureau which, as I understand it, is almost entirely free from Government interference. The Government, of course, intervene when questions of national policy are involved. The reason I mention these two countries is that it would appear from the survey made by OEEC, now known as OECD, that in both of these countries, less time was lost in strikes than in any other country covered by the survey. It was estimated that the loss of time through strikes averaged about ten minutes per worker per year. That, of course, is a very low level of loss indeed.

The example of these two countries might well be considered from the point of view of future industrial relations here. The Minister, in consultation with the Labour Court and with the joint employer-labour conference, might well consider periodic reviews, or a system under which it would be possible to have consultations with those directly concerned, in order to anticipate problems that may be looming on the horizon. One of the difficulties here is that, very often after fairly lengthy negotiation about a particular problem which is not resolved, disagreement eventually turns not on the particular problem the subject of immediate negotiation but on a wide variety of other matters introduced into it. Eventually the dispute, although nominally associated with a particular issue, covers in fact a much wider field.

If it were possible to anticipate matters causing concern to the workers or to the employers, as the case may be, and make them the subject of discussions with and preliminary investigation by the officers of the Labour Court, that might well avoid the serious consequences of industrial disputes affecting the entire economy. It ought to be possible, with the coming into existence of this joint employer-labour conference and the generally improved approach to industrial matters which has been characterised by the establishment of that joint conference, to evolve an intelligent and modern approach to this problem. The fact that it has been possible to evolve a satisfactory system elsewhere ought to spur us on to imitate some of the satisfactory systems that have been put into operation elsewhere. The individual as well as the nation loses by unnecessary industrial disputes. The time to plan an effective industrial system is when no dispute exists, or at least no major dispute, so that a satisfactory system may be put into operation to deal with this problem which affects the economy as a whole.

The Minister referred to the increase in industrial employment which had taken place during the past year. While it is satisfactory to note that increased industrial employment has taken place, it is important to realise that the increase in industrial employment which occurred last year did not absorb those who left rural employment and that not merely were those leaving rural employment not absorbed into industrial employment but no account whatever was taken of the number of young men and women reaching maturity each year who come for the first time on the labour market. Consequently, it is essential that a far greater rate of expansion will take place in the future if we are to provide the necessary employment here to cover those who are leaving rural occupations as well as those who reach employable age and who seek work for the first time.

It is for that reason I want to make some comments about the effect of the recent Budget on industrial activity. There are two factors in the Budget which I believe will have a depressive rather than an expansionist effect and, at the present time, the aim should be expansion and progress rather than restriction or being satisfied with the present position. One of the factors which will affect industrial expansion is the increase in corporation profits tax. While we shall have a further opportunity of discussing this matter on the Finance Bill, may I say now that one of the worst features of the increase in corporation profits tax is the fact that it is being made retrospective? In addition, it is contrary to the views expressed in the publication Economic Development, as well as being out of line with the incentives and encouragement which are necessary if this country is to modernise industry and expand to meet the competitive conditions which will exist, no matter what the new trading arrangements in the world may be.

Apart from the corporation profits tax, the turnover tax will have a depressive effect. I want to quote what was included in the publication Economic Development because it is applicable to the turnover tax, although the description of the tax is slightly different. It says in page 22:

A general purchase tax, for instance, would have an immediate reaction on sales of Irish products and would probably, in the end, have inflationary effects on wages and salaries and the cost of living. It is desirable that taxes on spending should bear most heavily on less essential imports as this helps to ensure the retention at home of as much as possible of the stimulating effect of capital formation on employment.

I quote that because it expresses what was then the considered view of the Government and was published as a document in connection with the White Paper issued at that time. One of the effects of this tax will undoubtedly be to influence the cost of goods sold by retail. In that connection I should like to ascertain from the Minister what function the Prices Act is supposed to have in this matter. In the past when specific taxes were imposed by the Budget or the Finance Bill, a definite statement of the effect of the tax was possible, and normally that statement covered the particular commodities. The easiest examples are commodities such as tobacco, motor spirit, beer or spirits but, in any event, whatever the actual tax was, the increased price which would become operative was announced and the margin which was allowed for the trade or for the purpose of the increased cost of the commodity was also stated.

The turnover tax has been announced at the rate of 6d. in the £ on goods and services, with the exception of certain named commodities or services. Therefore, it is necessary to get a statement of Government policy on what action under the Prices Act it is proposed to take in respect of the effect of this tax on commodities. I say that because of the difficulty of dealing with small items or commodities sold by retail. It is relatively simple where the article costs £1, £1 10s. or £2, or where the unit is some definite portion of a pound, but where the sales tax applies to small individual commodities which are bought at irregular intervals, some statement should be made as to what action will be taken and what system will be operated under the Prices Act.

The reason I believe that is imperative is that there has been in the past few years, and it is following again this year, a substantial rise in the cost of living. I have always held the view that competition is in the main the best regulator of prices except where goods are in short supply or where particular circumstances may operate for a limited period and affect prices. On the other hand, it seems that the Prices Act has in the main been in abeyance since it was enacted in 1958. So far as I know, with the exception of whatever investigation may have been conducted by the Minister's Department which may have furnished him with certain reports, no investigation of a public nature has been made. Therefore, with the advent of this new tax and the effect it will have on prices, it seems to be very important to decide what form the arrangements proposed under the Prices Act will take.

In the discussions which have taken place since the failure of the Brussels negotiations, considerable attention has been paid to the effect on our future trading relations and I was somewhat disappointed by the Minister's brief comments in his speech presenting the Estimate. He said that discussion had recently taken place with the British Government for the purpose of arranging trade arrangements between the two countries in the light of developments in western Europe and that they had not advanced beyond the preliminary stage. I believe the Government must soon make up their mind as to what our future trade relations are going to be because it seems obvious that if we do not assert our own attitude in these matters and endeavour to have existing trade arrangements revised and modified where necessary or new arrangements negotiated, we may find we are getting the worst of both worlds. It seems that the EFTA countries have now announced that it is proposed to eliminate tariffs by 1966. This decision is obviously an effort to get a jump ahead of the EEC countries whose target year is 1970. However, in the light of the known decisions of both bodies, we must examine what the position of this country will be in regard to reducing tariffs.

While there will be general agreement on the need to implement the various recommendations of the Committee on Industrial Organisation and to modernise industry in order to meet increased competition which seems inevitable in the future, there are, nevertheless, at the moment three bodies dealing with trade and tariffs the decisions of which will have a very important effect on our future trading position. There is EEC, EFTA and GATT. Our application to join GATT was deferred pending our application for EEC membership and I note from previous statements as well as from the Minister's statement this morning that the question of joining GATT is again being actively considered.

All this indicates that it is important for us to revise our trade agreements with Britain and with continental countries. One of the disadvantages of the EFTA arrangements is that the preferences that we have enjoyed in the British market up to now may be eroded by the developments in EFTA. Therefore, I think it well to refer to what was contained in the March, 1963, Banking Review in regard to EFTA membership. On page 19 it states:

Nevertheless, it must be noted that Denmark in particular is pressing for wider exports to the United Kingdom. British Government spokesmen have already indicated that it might be possible to give additional concessions to Denmark without conflicting with the Commonwealth position in the British agricultural market.

Under the various trade agreements that we have we enjoy what was known originally as Imperial and subsequently as Commonwealth preference. The recent announcement by Britain of a special quota for Danish butter approximately eight times the size of our quota obviously means that we must consider what our future trade relations will be.

One of the facts of our trading position is that with the exception of slight modifications all our trade agreements were negotiated years ago. The main agreement with Britain was negotiated in either 1938 or 1948. The 1948 agreement was subsequently modified. Our agreements with the Continent are in most cases of 10 years' duration or longer. Some of them have been modified or altered slightly but generally they were negotiated when European and world trading conditions were very different from what they are today.

Equally important is the fact that, examining these agreements—with the exception of our trade with Britain which is by and large a balanced trade on a two-way basis amounting to about £250 million annually, a substantial trade by any standard—our trade with Continental countries is heavily adverse. Some of these countries sell three or four times as much to us as they buy from us. The fact that that pattern has continued for a number of years makes it essential that we should now review all these agreements in the light of the breakdown of the Brussels negotiations and the proposed new EFTA arrangements. For that reason, it is also important that we should carefully consider whether we should eliminate quotas or tariffs without some quid pro quo. It is one thing to suggest that we must be competitive and quite another to consider whether gratuitous reductions of tariffs or quotas will secure for us any reciprocal benefit.

At present we are not in EEC or EFTA. We have not yet decided whether to pursue the application to join GATT. While the EFTA countries may have decided to eliminate tariffs by 1966 and the EEC countries by 1970, as we are at the moment, we are in neither of these bodies. It seems to me, therefore, that to arrange the reduction or elimination of tariffs and quotas without a quid pro quo from either or both of these organisations is a matter that requires most serious and careful consideration. We ought not to give away a bargaining power. No one suggests it is a bargaining power of unlimited strength. Nevertheless, whatever strength we have for the purpose of bargaining should be conserved in order to negotiate a satisfactory arrangement either on a joint basis with EEC or EFTA or through GATT or whatever future multi-lateral trading arrangements may be decided upon.

One of the matters that have been the subject of comment by industrialists here, and which I think it is well to mention on this debate, is the establishment of foreign investment in Irish industry. I noted from the Minister's speech that certain definite proposals for investment in the future, which it was expected would come to fruition and provide increased employment, were before his Department. One of the criticisms made—I do not necessarily subscribe to it but it is made in a number of quarters, receives a certain amount of publicity and appears to have been given some credence by the persons concerned—is the suggestion that certain facilities are available to foreign industrialists making investments here that are not available to Irish industrialists.

Government policy and the statutory position in respect of grants and loans in this matter should be clearly stated. It is a matter that has been the subject of discussion previously, but it is no harm, because of the criticism that has been made, to have the position stated again. It is for that reason I mention it. I should like the Minister in the course of his reply to state clearly and simply the facilities which are offered and whether any distinctions and, if so, what distinctions are made between investment by Irish persons and those who come in from abroad. Undoubtedly, we require technical know-how and skills. For that reason it has been our policy as well as the policy of the Government to encourage wherever possible experts and persons with knowledge and experience from abroad, where we have not got them available here, to supplement or provide the skill, knowledge and experience necessary to establish and maintain industries.

One other criticism sometimes made in that connection is that it appears to be easier to get a grant or loan for a very large project than for a small or medium-sized industrial undertaking. That may be because of the publicity and so on attendant on the establishment of a large industry. Nevertheless, it is important to get the actual position stated clearly and in a manner which will leave no doubt as to the position.

The Minister in his speech referred to the arrangements under the Apprenticeship Act and decisions taken by An Cheárd Chomhairle. This is a matter which requires a more modern approach than has characterised arrangements for apprentices in the past. With the very substantial growth of the training available in technical and vocational schools we ought to approach this matter on a different basis from that which obtained in the case of apprenticeship arrangements in the past. Merely because tradition decided or had developed to the extent that an apprentice had to spend so many years apprenticed to a particular trade or calling is no reason why the same length of time is necessary at present or in the future. Undoubtedly, certain avocations and trades may require that a person should spend the same period learning his trade or apprenticed to a certain line as existed previously. On the other hand, with the growth of the courses held under technical and vocational schools and the arrangements between these schools and the employers and trade unions, many new methods are being developed which will enable apprentices to learn their trade more quickly and probably more efficiently than in the past. Therefore, a much more enlightened and modern approach is necessary.

I had some experience of the arrangements which were made in connection with apprentices to the motor trade when in the Supply and Transport Corps. Arrangements were worked out with the authorities in Bolton Street Technical Schools. A very satisfactory system has been evolved under which benefits not hitherto enjoyed are now available not only to members of the Supply and Transport Corps but apprentices generally who wish to enter that trade. That approach could be developed in other fields, and I hope this will be followed up by An Cheárd Chomhairle, which has now a better opportunity than existed previously for operating such an arrangement.

One of the orders the Minister referred to was that dealing with motor spirit. It has always been something of a mystery to me that, instead of the petrol and oil companies making an effort to reduce the price of motor spirit, the competition appears to be between the companies as to who will establish the greatest number of petrol filling stations. This is a matter in which the Minister should take some interest and, probably in consultation with the Minister for Local Government, and certainly in consultation with the companies concerned, see whether some restriction should not be imposed on the indiscriminate setting up of filling stations without providing any commensurate advantages to either the motoring public or, indeed, to the employed persons, because very often the competition between these stations becomes such a cut-throat business that those employed in existing stations are adversely affected. At any rate, it seems to me that too many stations do not necessarily mean a better service. I think it would be in the public interest that an effort should be made to limit the number of filling stations generally in the future rather than to use discrimination in the matter of location.

The last matter I wish to raise is a decision made recently, I understand, as a result of which bread from Six County bakeries may be sold in competition here. I understand this decision is having an adverse effect on bakeries here, that it is affecting sales, and it seems to me the Minister should reconsider the reasons for having taken this decision and, if possible, have it reviewed. It is a matter which requires attention because of adverse effects on sales here and consequently the effect it may have on employment, without, at the same time, providing any worthwhile reduction in the price of bread.

Mr. J. Lynch

It is hard to say what effect it is having since the Order has not been made.

Mr. Cosgrave

Complaints are being made——

Mr. J. Lynch

In anticipation. There is a question about it on today's Order Paper.

Mr. Cosgrave

I would express the hope that it will be possible for the Minister to give some definite indication of the Government attitude on our trade relations in the light of the failure of the Brussels negotiations, in particular on the future trade arrangements between ourselves and Britain and between ourselves and the continental countries with which we have trade agreements.

Mr. Tully

I am rather interested in the number of the figures given by the Minister and I should be grateful if in his reply he will try to relate the actual increase in employment to the potential increases he mentioned in his speech. That phrase "potential increase" occurs again and again where new industries are referred to. He might be able to give us some of the actual figures rather than the potential figures, which have a nasty habit of not measuring up to expectations.

On page 7 of his speech, the Minister refers to industrial employment as being up by 5,000 in 1962. Does the Minister consider this a good trend, in view of the fact that there is evidence there has been a decrease of 19,000 in agricultural employment and that school leavers coming on the labour market will further increase the figure of people looking for jobs? Perhaps he will be good enough to comment on that. He also refers to Adaptation Councils. Could he say what kind of work they are doing, what kind of progress they are making, if any?

When CIO made their report, they referred to the question of the selection of places for industrial development. Has the Minister given any attention to that or are we still to carry on the old system of somebody looking for information about the possibility of establishing an industry, first of all, being advised to go to the west, and then, bit by bit, being left to ramble from place to place until eventually he selects some place which may not be suitable at all? Would the Minister consider making available to potential industrialists lists of areas where industries would be welcome, where labour would be available and where there would be no objection to the establishment of an industry, from either the town planning point of view or the point of view of local opinion?

Surely such a facility is due to the people who want to start industries here, whether they be Irish nationals or aliens? Would the Minister also say whether it would be possible to have, on the other side of the slate, for those who are attempting to have industries brought to certain areas, lists made available of potential industries and potential industrialists? From time to time, we all hear of people rambling around looking for sites and I personally know quite a number of areas where the people are doing their best to encourage the establishment of industries, who are prepared to guarantee a site, in many cases a certain amount of capital, and in all cases an availability of labour. Would the Minister agree those people should not have to go around on their own? I know the IDA can say it is not their job, but I say it should be part of their job. Should the IDA not be in a position to have at their disposal for supply to such people lists from which certain industries could be selected so that negotiations could then be carried out between potential industrialists and the groups of people who are anxious to get industries for their areas? Referring to the IDA, the Minister talked about the money that has been promised to certain industries. Would it be possible to find out the amount paid to those firms, whether they be Irish or foreign?

Mr. J. Lynch

As a matter of fact, very often it is impossible to explain away the actions of the Government, hard as I try. I was told recently that they find it hard to explain them themselves. However, I will leave that for another day.

The Minister referred to the Adaptation Councils. If a private industry will not carry out the advice which would enable it to become more competitive, what is the answer? Not another step to the left, is it? Will the Minister be prepared to take over that industry and run it on State lines, to ensure that it will carry out the suggestions designed to make it more competitive?

In regard to external trade, has the Minister ever considered that it would suit the country better if we had more trade attaches hunting for trade rather than what many people call prestige embassies? Prestige is all right if we can afford it, but we believe there are many cases in which we cannot afford it.

The Minister referred to the Avoca mines. When is it likely that there will be a definite statement on their future? Is it correct that shortly after they closed down, there was a sale of machinery and equipment which was more a giving away of the equipment than a sale, because the type of stuff being sold was not such as would be required by any ordinary business firm. Because the competition at the sale was terribly limited, it appeared that the equipment was, in fact, given away. Is there any reason why it should not have been stored if there is any intention of re-opening Avoca?

I appreciate the Minister's difficulties. I have had experience on previous occasions of people deliberately holding things up to show how much they knew, and to prove that they themselves had gone into all the angles. This is a new venture, and if the bona fides of the people operating Tynagh are OK—and we think they are; and I believe the Minister agrees they are—they should be welcomed with open arms, and every effort should be made to encourage them to get started as quickly as possible. I welcome the efforts of the Department and the Minister to encourage this development. I believe that very shortly all the minerals that are to be found here will be found. A colossal amount of money has been spent on mining over the past few years. While I agree that the Minister must protect the interests of the country, trying to be terribly exact in all the formalities is something that could be overdone. I will not say any more about it now.

In regard to industrial relations, I think the Minister will agree with me that they certainly were not helped by the wages pause. I wonder if the Minister can say whether the Government are still determined to go ahead with the wages pause in view of what has occurred since then, and in view of the fact that the turnover tax will, in a few months time, if it has not done so already, trigger off considerable wage demands. Does the Minister consider that the wage pause, which is supposed to apply to everybody, is fair in view of the fact that it ties up, or has attempted to tie up, the wages of people who are still being very badly paid, such as forestry workers, road workers and particularly farm workers? The Minister in his speech refers to the 5-day week and how smoothly it has been put into operation. I agree with him and with one exception both employers and employees, trade unions and employers' organisations have been able to iron things out very easily. The one exception is the State. The State have not co-operated in this. They have been most obstructive and they do not believe that the people referred to as labourers should get the reduced working week.

As a matter of fact, one group of State workers who are not farm workers, because the Agricultural Wages Board does not apply to them —they receive industrial holidays because they must come under the Industrial Holidays Act—work 50 hours a week. There has been a strike on for the past five weeks affecting those people and the State have adopted the Derry tradition and their answer has been "not an inch" to people who are badly paid and are working a 50-hour, 5½-day week. Did the Minister think of these people when he made the statement about the smoothness with which the five-day week was being operated? Or is it a case, as it is with the people in every job which is badly paid, of being the forgotten men? Nobody minds about them.

Possibly if the Minister was dealing with the matter the position might not have arisen. I wonder when he refers to the Labour Court—which is doing an excellent job—is he aware that State employees have no access to it or to any type of industrial court. The employees of the Board of Works, Forestry, the Department of Lands and the Department of Agriculture, and right around the whole way, cannot appeal to anybody and the question is between the workers' trade union and the Government and the Government bring their full resources into any fight in order to prevent any improvement in wages or conditions.

I will pay this tribute to the Minister—he has done more than his share in trying to keep industrial relations running smoothly. I do not mean that as an empty compliment. I admire the efforts he has made any time he was called in to try to settle a dispute or to prevent a dispute. But does it not appear laughable that while that is so we have the Government, of which he is a Minister, preventing by every means in their power an improvement in wages and conditions of their own employees? The extreme case is the case which I say has caused a five week strike.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would seem to be a matter for the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Tully

I do not agree, because they are industrial workers and as workers coming under the Conditions of Employment Act the Minister for Industry and Commerce is the Minister who must take responsibility for whatever happens.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter was raised on the Adjournment and it was the Minister for Agriculture who replied.

Mr. Tully

It was the Minister for Agriculture as the Minister in charge of the Department which employs them, but that does not alter the situation as far as these people are concerned. The Minister for Agriculture is not an agricultural employer; therefore, according to the Act he cannot have agricultural workers in his employment. There is no debate about that. I would ask the Minister, as he has endeavoured to settle much bigger disputes, if there is anything he can do in this case. These people are human beings just the same as CIE workers or any other type of worker.

The same thing applies to the employees of the Board of Works who are also denied a 5-day week because there is no tribunal to deal with them. Could I ask the Minister to try to ensure that the workers in the lower grades employed by the State get some type of court or arbitration to investigate their grievances as those in outside employment have? That is a fair request and I would ask the Minister to devote his full attention to it.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is that of grants. Reference was made by the previous speaker to the difficulty experienced by some smaller industries in getting grants as compared with bigger industries or foreign industries. I have the same complaint. There are some industries who feel that by investing £2,000 or £3,000 they would be able to expand and be able to give greater employment but they do not seem to get the same attention. Possibly their approach has not been right, or possibly the matter has not been presented properly to the IDA but I know of more than one small industry to which this applies. I have been in contact with one in particular, recently, which employs about six or seven men, and which could be called a native industry because it uses Irish timber. They have been trying to expand and they believe they would be able to employ 15 or 20 men if they could get even a loan of a few thousand pounds but they do not seem to be making much headway.

In another case a factory was burned down and because it was a wooden structure it could not be insured and all the machinery was destroyed and ten or 11 men put out of work. The people who owned it had not got the money to start it again and there was no hope of a grant from the Department. In another instance an industrialist, who also used timber, applied for money to expand his small industry but the Department were not prepared to discuss the matter. They said there was no point as they had no grants or money that could be made available. The Minister should look into this, because in rural areas the employment of 10 or 20 men, particularly in an industry in which native raw materials are used, is very important. I feel the Minister and the Department are not doing as much as they might to try to encourage the expansion of those small industries.

I also believe that most of the industries being established here should be based on native raw materials, particularly raw materials connected with agricultural products. I know that the Sugar Company have taken a big step forward in that respect but I think this is something which could be expanded all over the country. A market could be obtained for processed foods if the factories for processing them could be established in rural districts. I am sure the Minister has the interests of those matters at heart. I would ask him to try to push them forward on every possible occasion.

I want to make a small reference to the working of the Apprenticeship Act. While I agree that the question of the educational qualifications of the apprentice should be considered and that it is only right that every effort should be made to try to give the youngsters going on to be apprentices the education which would help them to be better craftsmen eventually, I feel there is a danger that what we call in the country the "natural", the lad who has a natural aptitude for a particular craft and who for some unknown reason cannot grasp anything to do with what they call "book learning", will be completely shut out. I know of a number of them. Possibly the Minister would also be aware of some of these people. I think every effort should be made within the Act as it stands to try to cater for people like that. Some of them are really gifted but, if the Act is administered severely, they will be completely ruled out.

There is also the question of the people who seek technical education but cannot get it because no technical schools in the area are able to take them. I do not know if the Minister is aware of this but, even in some of the bigger towns, it is not easy now to get a place in a technical school. It is grand to see it happening that the number of people seeking technical education are increasing but, because of that, the number of places available are not sufficient. It often happens that, when the requirements of the children in a particular town are attended to, there is no place for those who live a few miles outside the town.

New schools are being built but, even when that is done, there will still be quite a number of those children who cannot find places. There is a danger that those children may find themselves excluded. I would ask the Minister to keep a weather eye on the matter because this is a development which could possibly cause a lot of trouble at a later stage.

I think the Minister, as a personality, has been doing an excellent job. His intervention in labour disputes has always been very well received by the trade unions and the workers. I hope the Minister will be able to give some attention to the specific points I raised here today.

As far as the Department are concerned, lest anybody should think I was over-critical of them, I would say that individually, as officials, they have, since I came back here two years ago, been very courteous to me. I have no complaint to make about the way I have been received either on the telephone or personally but I feel there are certain hidebound limits which tie up those people so that when some assistance is required they have to do exactly what is laid down. It would be much better if they could say, for example: "We just cannot do anything about the matter as it stands but there is another way" and if they were allowed to give more advice to people who go to them—particularly those who seek grants for the establishment of industries or for the expansion of industries.

Mr. Crinion

The Department of Industry and Commerce are to be complimented on the new factories which we see going up throughout the country and in the city. On every side of the city, you will see numerous factories and extensions going up. When you ask yourself how that came about, you realise it is due to the grants and the encouragement the Department have been giving.

In our policy for economic expansion, we realised that if we were to provide jobs for the people, the only possible outlet was industrial expansion. That involved getting more factories and more firms to expand. We have given them encouragement to do this work by the rebate on income tax on all products exported. We are giving them the incentive to go ahead and expand and, naturally, expansion means employment of more people and extra work. From a national point of view, it also brings more money to the country and causes more money to be in circulation. In that respect, it benefits everybody.

Factories take up the least amount of land and give the greatest amount of employment. In every country, one may say, over the past 50 to 100 years, the number of people on the land has been going down slightly each year. This, to a large extent, has been caused by mechanisation. The output on the farms is increasing but the number of people on the land is decreasing. To provide work for those people, the only alternative is factories and industries. Most countries throughout Europe have been doing this. At present, other countries are giving incentives to encourage firms to set up new factories. We have to do likewise. We are meeting with quite an amount of success. Many foreign people are coming in and setting up firms.

People may say we are encouraging foreigners and maybe not encouraging our own. We must always remember that these foreigners who come in to set up factories are bringing in only a few people. Granted, they are possibly the executives but they have the know-how and, what is more important, they have the markets for the products. It is no use setting up a factory unless you have an idea of where you will sell the product. In that respect, they have the market. They know how to produce the article because they have been producing it in their own country. They bring in a few executives and we have only to look ahead and realise that, as time goes on, they will become Irish and Irish people will be filling their positions in the years to come.

I was particularly interested last year when we were asked down to the Shannon industrial zone. The one thing that struck me was the feeling of going ahead. I felt that these people wanted to cooperate with Ireland in the drive for economic expansion. Some of them were American firms and all of them were foreign. The one feeling that conveyed itself to me was that they had come and settled down in Ireland and wanted to feel they were Irish and to feel they were doing some good for Ireland. It is a matter of history that the Normans who came to this country became more Irish than the Irish themselves. The enthusiasm I witnessed at Shannon brought that to mind. I believe that in 20 or 40 years time, the foreigners who are running factories in this country will have become more Irish than the Irish themselves.

Employment has been provided in these factories for a considerable number of men and women. In most cases, operatives are being trained so that it is possible that any of them might rise to the position of manager. There was a typical example of that in Cork. An employee in the Ford factory worked his way up and became general manager of Ford's of Dagenham. He has recently retired. I have no doubt that there will be similar cases in the years ahead in the case of factories established here by foreign investors. We have not a tradition of industry and these people are bringing in technical know-how. I was particularly impressed on a visit to the Shannon industrial zone by the fact that a target is set for each week and the employees are given a daily progress report and paid a bonus on production. It may be said that that encourages people to work harder but they get a bonus on production. Everything possible was provided at that factory for the welfare of the workers.

In one American firm, I was very gratified to find that there is contact between the man on the floor and the man at the top. A foreman is responsible for about ten men and tries to know everything about them and if there is any matter troubling them, that can be rectified. The foremen meet once a week for discussion and there is a report to the executives. It means that there is personal contact between the man on the top and the man on the floor. Such ideas promote good relations in industry.

If there had not been the industrial development there has been in the past 30 years, there would be a terrific unemployment problem here. At present, the industrial arm is responsible for as much of the national income as agriculture. The three arms of our economy are agriculture, industry and tourism. There is an old saying that one should not have all one's eggs in one basket. It is a good thing that industry and tourism should be developed side by side with agriculture.

A typical example of a development based on natural resources is the Sugar Company. This year a loan of £5 million was made for the development of the fruit and vegetable processing industry sponsored by the Sugar Company. The production of fruit and vegetables gives a high return per acre to the farmer and is particularly suited to the small farmer and cottier. Such production provides extra family income. Even the children of a family can be employed in fruit picking during the holiday season. It is a good thing that there should be State encouragement for such an industry. The financing of the project was by way of repayable, interest-bearing loan, as distinct from a grant such as has been made to other projects.

A considerable amount of employment has been given by the Sugar Company in this branch of its industry. There is a fruit and vegetable processing factory attached to each of their main factories. Employment is created in the area and farmers in the area of each factory are provided with a means of increasing their annual income. The sales of the products are increasing and there is an expanding market for them.

Bord na Móna have been another important provider of employment in rural areas. At peak periods about 2,000 men are employed in the Kildare constituency. There is, of course, the complaint that men are laid off during the winter but the fact that 2,000 men are employed at any time is a good thing for the locality. Shopkeepers, for instance, appreciate the amount of purchasing power that is created and when production ceases, they are immediately aware of the fact. I have been informed by the Board that they are doing their best to spread the work over as long a period as possible so as to reduce the number laid off in the winter. The disemployment was not felt so acutely last year as in other years because, as a result of the boom in building, a considerable number of men were absorbed in that industry. Consider all the permanent skilled operatives today who were, when they first went in, quite inexperienced. Consider the position in which their sons are now, going in as apprentices to train as fitters, electricians, and so on. These have a better standard of living; they have a much brighter future. From that point of view, we welcome the apprenticeship scheme.

There is, however, one aspect of it to which I should like to direct the attention of the Minister. There are boys who only develop an aptitude for specialised work when they reach 16 or 17 years of age. It is impossible for these at the moment to become qualified in any kind of specialised work. Perhaps it might be possible to review the position and make opportunities for such boys. Such a step would be very much appreciated.

Our factories need trained personnel and skilled operatives. Our factories could not compete efficiently with their opposite numbers in Europe without such skilled operatives. I remember being at a Common Market conference round about 1958. The idea then was that only big concerns would be successful in the Common Market. Recently in Germany the trend had changed; it was felt there was a better future for the smaller units of production where there was a more personal touch. The Minister is to be complimented on encouraging the 100 to 200 operatives type of factory. In these smaller units of production, there is never the same labour trouble the bigger units suffer.

Our factories are new. They are equipped with up-to-date machinery and use the most modern techniques. Most of the factories in Europe, on the other hand, are long established and their equipment is not as efficient as some of ours. There is a great future, I believe, for our factories. There are many incentives offered for the purpose of encouraging them to go ahead.

With regard to grants, An Foras Tionscal go through the applications very carefully indeed. If the Minister could induce this body—I know they have to be careful because they are dealing with public money—to expedite decisions, the results would be beneficial. Industrialists are, on the whole, men who come to quick decisions and, if they feel there is undue delay in coming to decisions, they may take their industries elsewhere. A reasonable expedition in deciding one way or the other would be greatly appreciated. I should like to say here that An Foras Tionscal are always most courteous to those who approach them. The only complaint I have ever heard is that they are a little slow in coming to decisions.

There is another aspect to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. Though it is, perhaps, an agricultural matter the fact is it also comes within the scope of the Department of Industry and Commerce. Extra grants are given to those who supply eggs for export, provided they enter into a five-year contract. Some firms enter into a one-year contract only. That contract continues for two or three years, and will go on indefinitely, but no grant can be obtained because it is a yearly instead of a five-year contract. Perhaps these firms could be encouraged to enter into five-year contracts in future. Once a person has entered into a contract and established harmonious relations, it is not easy just to change over to another firm which gives a five-year contract but, if the people on yearly contracts want to expand production, they find they are debarred from any benefit to be obtained by way of grant for the erection of new houses, and so on.

I should like to take this opportunity to compliment the Minister and his Department on the excellent work done. It should be noted that the Minister has been indefatigable in trying to iron out troubled labour relations and difficulties. He is to be commended on his efforts to keep the wheels of industry turning, thereby providing work for our people and encouraging the expansion we need here.

Mr. A. Barry

It is said that you cannot play Hamlet without the ghost and the ghost was only glimpsed in the Minister's statement this morning, although he is present and haunts all those engaged in industry in this country. He walks the corridors of the Minister's Department and the factories in this land. I refer, of course, to the Government decision, almost a throw-away decision in the manner in which it was announced, to dismantle the tariff structure of this country.

I agree with the Minister in part of his statement this morning when he said it has been a reasonable year for his Department. There has been a moderate growth in industrial development, and his Department covers a very wide area. The previous speaker referred to the satisfactory manner in which factories were being established but what about the prospect for the older factories and even the new factories when we start to tear down the protective barrier we had erected around them? The entire problem of industrial employment and industrial activity is shadowed and haunted by this matter. There is uneasiness in the minds of industrialists and, I want to tell the Minister, almost incredulity about the Government proposals. I intend to speak of nothing else for the next three or four minutes except this matter and I want the Minister, if possible, to refer to it very clearly in his reply.

It is quite understandable that the collapse of the European market prospects would throw up many problems for us and that there would be some confusion in the minds of all of us, even in the minds of Government Ministers, due to the chaotic situation resulting from that collapse. Some of the things the Government said then, I have the feeling, may be unsaid or modified or qualified later on. It has been said that we are entering a stage of progressive tariff dismantlement. We have already taken one step in that direction; we have taken 10 per cent off. However, as I said earlier, there is incredulity among producers and industrialists that the Government are serious about this. It is not unfair to say that there is uncertainty in the public mind about the Government's intentions. There is a lack of clarity about the way the matter has been put before this House and before the people and, therefore, industrialists have a legitimate cause for complaint.

If the Government have come to a firm decision about a graduated series of proposals, that firm decision should be announced and these proposals should be scheduled and placed before every employer and every industrialist so that they will know what the future holds. I do not intend to discuss whether the proposal that has already been made that we should dismantle these tariffs is wise or not, whether it is wise that we should brace ourselves for the impact of the harsh facts of life that will hit this country as an industrial country or whether we should continue protection a little longer. It is obvious that, if we do take ten per cent off in the near future and another ten per cent off next year, the value of new imports will increase tremendously and become a flood. That would gravely injure those who are now supplying the home market with many products.

However, more dangerous than that is to have any vagueness about the matter, any feeling that the Government are not really serious about it. If the Government are not serious about it then they should never have said it. If they are serious specific proposals must be made so that all those who employ workers and all those who work at these plants will be aware of the seriousness of the situation that lies before them. As a kind of sideline hurler, I would say we should not lower our tariffs except in a selective manner. In view of our international commitments, I do not know how we can do that but it seems ridiculous that a Common Market country should have any benefit from action taken by this Parliament. The Common Market countries should not get from us advantages that they deny to us. If we engage in any tariff reduction it should be to the advantage of those who are likely to be in the same boat as ourselves. We should be extremely selective in our tariff reductions. This is not altogether the Minister's sphere but the results will be very much in his sphere and it is due to industrialists and workers that uncertainty in this regard should be removed. There should be no ambiguity and whatever the proposals are they should be published immediately.

Mr. Rooney

I should like to commence on the note struck by Deputy Barry. He has just mentioned that there has been a ten per cent reduction in tariffs in order to bring us down to a more competitive basis having regard to the prospect of being a member of the EEC. However, we have failed in our application to become a member of the EEC and, therefore, while a reduction in tariffs is welcome to the consumer who enjoys the benefit of the lower prices of various articles, the application of this ten per cent reduction plays into the hands of the EEC.

When the proposal was first mooted to bring down this protection by ten per cent the idea was to try to get on a level with the EEC countries but now that the prospect of finding ourselves on a level with the EEC countries in the matter of trying to sell manufactured goods has moved away from us, the reduction of ten per cent in tariffs is a wasted effort so far as the possibility of industrial expansion is concerned. If the protection had not been reduced, industrialists, realising the need for a higher measure of efficiency, greater competence and a greater volume of output, would take advantage of the profit they would get from that measure of protection in order to put themselves into a stronger position thus enabling them to meet the problems which may arise at a later stage if we do succeed in becoming a member of the EEC.

The reduction of ten per cent last year actually had the effect of weakening our industrial potential rather than strengthening it. The emphasis in recent times, especially since the question of joining EEC arose, has been on equipping and strengthening our industries in order to meet the very grave threat to them involved in that prospect. When the question of our entry was very much in the lime-light there was considerable anxiety here that serious unemployment might result if we were accepted for membership. Some of the better judges forecast that nearly half our industries would disappear if they had to compete with the highly-efficient and modernised industries in EEC countries. In addition, the possibility of nearly 50,000 industrial workers losing their jobs arose. Those two threats have passed for the moment as we have not succeeded in our application for membership but the reduction in tariff protection has not helped the industrialists to become stronger in order to meet, on equitable terms, EEC competition at a later date.

I know there are other schemes being implemented at present by the Department in an effort to bring our industries up to a higher level of efficiency. For instance, grants are made available for the extension of factories and the replacement of out-of-date plant and machinery. We also have the apprenticeship scheme to which the Minister devoted a considerable part of his speech. The idea of preparing young people going into industries as apprentices, ensuring that they are properly educated and given a flying start in technical education is sound. But these aids are being offered to industry by the Minister with one hand while with the other he takes away the ten per cent tariff protection. He has indicated that further substantial reductions in tariffs will be effected before the end of the present year. Before taking that step, I think he should see whether it would be better for our industries to enjoy the protection in order to make their profits available towards achieving this higher efficiency, extending their factories and replacing plant and machinery for which purposes grants are available. If industrialists put their own profits and capital into these extensions and so on I think in the long run it is a better type of investment than if State grants are used for the same purpose.

The general picture given us by the Minister is that the gross national output has increased by 2½ per cent in the past 12 months. In view of the emphasis that has been put on industrial effort, that is a very poor increase and we cannot hope to get into the competitive field with an increase of that magnitude, especially when the increase is aided by so many grants and schemes. At the same time, production in the agricultural sector fell. That is most regrettable since we must depend on agriculture to maintain a sound economy. The Government have very largely neglected agricultural development.

When considering industry, we must consider the output and the end product. We must place emphasis on the processing of raw materials. Our real success must come from the agricultural sector. We still have very great opportunities in regard to milk and milk products and insufficient effort is being made to discover end products which can result from the processing of milk and which would be a great help to the dairying areas which are producing a huge surplus of milk and creating a problem regarding the sale of butter. Apparently, butter, as an end product of milk, is not the answer and we should try to establish industries which would use this milk in producing other types of consumable goods which would have a ready market.

Milk and milk products in Europe are fetching prices almost 40 per cent higher than here. That 40 per cent should leave a margin for those engaged in converting milk into various consumable goods. In addition, the prices for grain on the Continent are about 30 per cent higher than here. There again is a margin of 30 per cent on which we could work through our processing factories producing a product we could sell outside the country. Sufficient attention has not been paid to the question of processing our own raw materials for export rather than importing raw materials, processing them and exporting them, as happens to a great extent at present.

When the Minister mentioned that 40 new industrial undertakings had been established during the past 12 months, he admitted that that number included extensions to existing industries established with the aid of the various grants. In fact, he did not give us the number of brand new industries established during the past 12 months. I was glad to learn from the Minister that approximately 70 practical proposals have been received from various European countries as well as from Great Britain and the United States which should result in providing further employment and a greater volume of industrial production. Unfortunately, the Minister did not give us any idea of the type of industry or whether in fact the industries are similar to industries already operating here, which last year had to bear a tariff cut of ten per cent.

The Minister mentioned the work done by An Foras Tionscal. An Foras Tionscal is a good idea, especially for the distribution of industries in the undeveloped areas. There has been agitation in the areas not included in their list complaining that, even though they are rural areas to all intents and purposes, because they are not on the list they cannot have the benefit of the grants available. People in the undeveloped areas where these industries are established comment that the employment content is very low. What happens is that a factory is established with the aid of the various grants, plant and machinery are provided, then automation begins. A few people are employed to watch the machines doing the work. Many of these industries in the undeveloped areas have not provided employment for a large number of people.

We saw from the Minister's speech that the number of people engaged in industry in the past 12 months increased by about 5,000. During that period 10,000 people left the land. If we assume that 5,000 have gone into industry, then another 5,000 must have left the country. Industry, apparently, is not able to cater for the number of people leaving the land, who leave mainly because of economic circumstances. If there were prosperity on the land, people would not leave it at such a rate. We noticed that, although the number of people in industrial employment increased by 5,000 last year, the value of our exports declined by £6½ million. Possibly that trend will continue, particularly if the influence of the EEC countries makes itself felt and if goods are being produced by modern methods at lower prices. At the same time, imports increased by £12.3 million, making a difference of £18 million in our trading situation as compared with the previous year. Livestock exports accounted mainly for this heavy decline in the value of our exports. Although there has been a slight recovery in livestock exports in recent weeks, there is not much sign of a dramatic increase in the agricultural sector.

The adverse trade balance last year exceeded £100 million. I remember in 1956, when the adverse trade balance was only £62 million, there was a hue and cry about it from Fianna Fáil. In addition, the Minister for Finance at that time, Deputy Sweetman, took very drastic measures to rectify the position. No effort is being made by the present Government at all. I read in the Irish Independent a couple of days ago that our position for the four months ending in April in relation to our adverse trade balance is worse than it was in 1962 and promises to continue being worse. It appears the Government could not care less about it. They were very worried — for political reasons, of course—when the adverse trade balance in 1956 was £62 million.

During the past 12 months, a situation arose which should be remedied soon. It concerns the Restriction of Imports Act which was intended to remedy the trade situation as far as certain countries are concerned. There are for sale in this country goods imported from various States, mainly from Eastern Europe and Japan, and we are paying out £10 to £20 for each £1 worth of goods they are buying from us.

I welcomed the action of the Department and the Minister during the past 12 months in bringing in the Restriction of Imports Act and I understand the Minister has warned the States concerned that this imbalance cannot be tolerated, that if they do not make an attempt to purchase from us a fair amount of the goods we have available for export, whether agricultural or industrial, we will discontinue to do business with them. That is praise-worthy, but it seems from the Minister's speech today that, though he has issued this warning, no positive action has yet been taken. The House would be interested to hear from the Minister now just when we can expect some such positive action to remedy this imbalance. The Minister may say it is not a substantial amount, that it does not constitute a big proportion of our adverse trade balance, but I think it is a first step that should be taken immediately. Many of the States concerned send their goods through the States rather than through the individual manufacturers, so the matter could be dealt with at the highest level with the States in question.

We can take it, and it is very important to us, that the levels of EFTA tariffs will offset the advantage to us of the imperial preference we enjoy on the British market. This imperial preference is of great advantage to us but it seems Britain are becoming inclined to take advantage of the lower prices for goods from EFTA countries in future. It is consequently certain Irish industries will feel the pinch, particularly if EFTA tariff levels come down to a figure below the imperial preference which we now enjoy.

In his speech, the Minister expressed disappointment at the number of applications for grants which were being submitted by various industries. These grants are aimed at enábling industries to extend their premises and replace old plant and equipment. The Minister has warned people who might qualify for these grants that, in fact, the scheme will terminate on 31st March, 1965. That was a good point to make and I think it should be followed up by impressing on the industrialists concerned that they should take advantage of these grants immediately so that they can achieve a high level of efficiency by the end of March, 1965. If there is a prospect of competition from EEC nations, either in relation to imperial preference commodities or to our own industries here, the sooner Irish industries are brought up to a really efficient level the better for the industries and for the country.

It was significant to learn from the Minister's speech that over 75 per cent of the grants already given were for plant and equipment. This shows that, in fact, the factory owners concerned either had premises large enough already or that they were in a very great hurry to increase the volume of output. That trend is likely to continue, but we must remember that the need for increased production generally is very urgent.

I noted that the Minister made no reference to the rise in the cost of living that has taken place in the past year or to the rising prices with which consumers will have to contend. He just made a passing reference to the eighth round wage increases and to the increased number of businesses which had introduced the five-day week. We all know that in fact we can expect a ninth or tenth round rise in wages in order to secure compensation for the increase of 2½ per cent in commodity prices as a result of this year's Budget proposals. There is no doubt this is an expenditure tax.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter that would not be in order on the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce. It is not in order to discuss legislation on the Estimate, and the question of the turnover tax awaits legislation.

Mr. Rooney

I just wanted to mention in passing that the Minister has avoided any reference to the cost of living. This has been a very large issue during the debate on this Estimate in previous years. When referring to the 10 per cent tariff reduction, the Minister indicated the possibility of further reductions next year. He also said that in lieu of a reduction in tariff levels, quantitative restrictions might be removed, thus enabling industries to operate more successfully by making available greater quantities of materials which came within these restrictions.

During the year, there was considerable debate regarding our application for membership of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade—GATT, as it is called. It appears from the Minister's statement that this application for membership must remain in abeyance, pending the outcome of our EEC application. It now appears that there is little or no prospect of our becoming members of EEC within the next few years—I was about to say within the foreseeable future—so that even at this stage we ought to see whether any useful purpose can be served by following up our application to become a member of GATT. We might get some advantage from it, particularly when the question of tariff reductions is facing our industries.

I notice from the Minister's statement that the Fair Trade Commission put in a report regarding restrictive trade practices in relation to the sale and pricing of groceries, but whatever conclusion the Fair Trade Commission have reached in relation to the sale and pricing of groceries, I feel it will be upset in future and that it is a wasted effort, apart from the report and investigations that are on record.

During the year, of course, the White Paper, entitled Closing the Gap, was under discussion here. In effect, it was a proposal to impose a standstill order on wages and salaries. It was put forward in this House as an excuse for closing the gap between incomes and productivity. As a result of the debate here, it was quickly withdrawn by the Taoiseach. It reminded me of the Taoiseach's withdrawal in regard to his promise of 100,000 jobs under his new scheme. It just went up in smoke. At the same time, it caused a considerable measure of unrest in the country and annoyance to people who felt they would be prevented from gaining any advantage or profit from their services, whether as wage or salary earners or profit earners.

Another matter that has affected our industrial prospects for the coming year is the proposal in regard to corporation profits tax. It is proposed now to apply that tax retrospectively, which is really a raid on the till. It will leave many factory owners and many manufacturers in a much weaker position in relation to any programme they may have in mind for expansion of their premises and replacement of plant and machinery. There may be certain grants for those purposes but whatever plans they had to expend money from their own corporation profits have disappeared. That is a serious set-back to our prospects for industrial expansion.

The industrial side of our economy at the moment is showing expansionist prospects. When we look at it, we must remember that we are in competition with great industrial countries like Great Britain, Germany, France, Belgium and Holland. Those are very highly efficient countries. They have a long tradition in industry. It is hard to believe that even within the next ten years, we will have reached the measure of efficiency and technique which industries in those countries already enjoy, and which they practise.

At the same time, the efforts of the Department in trying to expand industry must be appreciated, and they must be complimented on what they have achieved. While complimenting the Department, we must say too, of course, that our industries have been built up mainly by the citizens of the country who have paid high prices for the products of those factories. I suppose that arrangement had to come to an end some time, and it is coming to an end by the reduction of tariffs, which will reduce the amount that will have to be paid by our citizens for the finished articles coming out of our own factories.

When we examine the exports of our various industries, we can see that a great measure of credit is due to the factory owners and directors, and to the sales representatives who went out to the various towns and cities in Great Britain, Europe and America, and succeeded in finding markets for their products. We cannot overlook the fact that they are very enterprising people, and we must give them credit for securing those markets for the benefit of themselves and of the country.

We must also give full credit to Córas Tráchtála who are an organised body seeking markets for our products in the various countries. They have the very technical job of getting prices and statistics together, and comparing them with the price of the finished articles we have for sale. They also have the job of advising persons engaged in industry who are anxious to get satisfactory markets for their products. Therefore, we must also pay special tribute to Córas Tráchtála for the measure of success they have achieved. We cannot ignore or fail to express our appreciation of what they have done.

In addition to that, we must claim credit for the 1956 Finance Act brought in by Deputy Sweetman and designed to encourage employers to go into export markets. It showed the industrialists that they would get special tax concessions from profits on exports but that profits on goods sold within the country would be subject to the usual income tax laws. The result was that enterprising industrialists and factory owners switched over to production for exports rather than production for the home market and this led to a dramatic increase in the volume and value of goods exported. At present the income from industrial exports is a big consideration in our economy and the expansion has enabled our people to enjoy a higher standard of living. The prosperity which many people claim exists today is mainly due to the sudden expansion on the industrial side of our economy. That expansion goes back to the 1956 Finance Act, to Córas Tráchtála and the officers of the Department who have been associated with this dramatic improvement in our industry. Unfortunately agriculture has not kept pace and I believe it can be——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not embarking on a debate on agriculture?

Mr. Rooney

No; I only wanted to mention that industrial expansion has proceeded at a much faster rate than any expansion in agriculture during the past six years. It is regrettable that agriculture has failed to keep step with industrial expansion and I feel that it could.

Another matter which I want to mention is in relation to the huge grants being made available for the construction or improvement of luxury hotels and the ordinary type of hotel. I feel that too much money has been given out in this regard. It has been argued that expenditure on luxury hotels and on hotel improvement will increase our income from tourists.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter will arise on another Estimate.

Mr. Rooney

I understood it was a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think it is a matter for the Minister for Transport and Power.

Mr. Rooney

I am sorry; I over-looked the fact that it has been taken away from the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I was surprised that the Minister had not mentioned the activities of Bord Fáilte. I will therefore reserve my comments in relation to this matter to another occasion.

In conclusion, I should like to say that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is doing a first-class job. Certainly he is doing a very much better job than his counterpart in the agricultural sphere and it is fortunate for the country that he is. The programme which he has set out does not show that anything dramatic can be expected during the coming year. He did indicate that we can expect the establishment of up to 70 industries. I do not know how many will be established during the next 12 months when the people examining the proposals and the interested parties in various countries make their final decisions, but from what he said last year in relation to the proposals, it cannot be expected that the gross national product from industry will be much more in the present year than it was last year, and which I felt was a rather disappointing level, especially as we must try to keep pace with the EEC countries whose economies are expanding so rapidly.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

Coming from a constituency in which industrial development is almost unknown, I cannot be blamed if I approach this Estimate with a certain amount of cynicism. Despite all the industrial legislation of recent years and the inducements offered to industrialists, in my constituency of Limerick East, which comprises the third largest urban area in the country as well as a large rural area, we have got only a few minor industries in the past five or six years. This is due to the fact that the Undeveloped Areas Act has worked very unfairly as far as my area is concerned and has had the effect of bringing industries into areas where the grants and inducements were better. So far as Limerick is concerned, we have lost a number of industries because industrialists were attracted by the better inducements, particularly across the Shannon. This problem has been overcome to a certain extent by the recent Industrial Grants Act whereby the differential as between the undeveloped areas and the rest of the country has been levelled out. Now, all parts of the country stand more or less an equal chance in their race for industry.

I think all aspects of the Estimate have been referred to by previous speakers from this side of the House. I believe the outstanding success story in the field of industrial development in recent years has been the tremendous break-through in food processing by the Irish Sugar Company under the dynamic leadership of Lieutenant-General M.J. Costello. The success of this State body in the field of food processing indicates in no uncertain manner the essential soundness of the economic thinking of the Government which launched this industry in the early days of this State. I fear, however, that the significance of the Sugar Company's success in the food processing field in recent times and the tremendous programme of expansion which it has quietly but determinedly being putting into effect have not yet been fully realised or grasped either by the Government or by all concerned with the promotion of industries in this country.

The development of food processing industries, as shown by the pioneering work of the Sugar Company in recent years, has exciting possibilities. We are a predominantly agricultural nation. We have the soil, the climate and all the natural conditions second to none in Europe. We have all the necessary prerequisites for a major step forward in the field of food processing. However, there is a tremendous amount of preparatory development work waiting to be done.

I believe there is need now for a more organised approach to the development of food processing industries. At the moment, food processing industries are in the hands of too many different groups of people. We have private firms; we have the Irish Sugar Company; we have the Dairy Disposal Company Limited and we have the co-operative societies. They are all working independently in this field of food processing. They are each working independently and are each doing a reasonably good job.

The time is now ripe for a new approach to this whole question. There is need for rationalising and for co-ordinating the efforts of the various bodies and agencies engaged in the food processing fields. At the promotion end of the field of food processing, in addition to the Department of Industry and Commerce the Department of Agriculture have a very big say. Now that the potential has clearly been shown and that we are becoming aware of this vast potential for the development of food processing industries, there is a very strong case for the setting up of a special industrial authority charged with the responsibility of promoting and organising food processing industries.

As I said, the whole approach to the development of food processing industries has been very loose. There are too many agencies involved in it. Suppose there is a proposal for the establishment of a milk processing industry. The Industrial Development Authority, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Agriculture and An Foras Tionscail all come into it. Furthermore, there is need for direction, that is, food processing industries should be directed to areas which are the most suitable for the production of the particular raw material utilised by that industry. I think there has been a very big lack of organisation in this matter.

I always have before my mind one particular classical example and that is that a certain amount of the milk produced in my area goes 70 miles from Limerick to Rathmore where it is manufactured into chocolate crumb and which is then transported to Dublin for final processing into chocolate. It is obvious that the transport costs in that case must be fantastic. Certainly, it is difficult to see how we can enter into external markets competitively with this type of organisation.

An industrial development authority charged specially with the task of promoting and organising and getting under way food processing industries is urgently needed. There is need for surveys to find out which areas are the most suitable for particular industries. I came in contact with an American food processing firm which came to this country 18 months or so ago. This company was absolutely inundated with memoranda from all over the country, putting forward all sorts of fantastic claims for each area. There is a need for a more rational approach to this business.

The question of food processing industries and the need for a new approach becomes much more urgent now in view of two reports—one of which has been published and the other, I believe, about to be published. I refer to the report on the dairying industry and the report on the bacon industry. I realise that matters of detail arise properly on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture but I think I may be permitted to refer to these reports from the point of view of industrial development.

These two reports are of tremendous concern in my constituency. The report on the dairying industry recommends the closing down of a large number of branch creameries. The report on the bacon industry would indicate that a considerable number of our bacon factories will have to close down. It was these two matters, which are greatly worrying people in my constituency, that I had in mind when I decided to speak almost exclusively on the question of food processing industries. As I have said, I believe there is a tremendous potential here for the development of such industries. There are expanding markets in the newly emergent nations of the world for food products. We have all the prerequisites. I believe the time is now ripe for a major step forward towards a new and more dynamic approach to this question.

There are just a few other matters to which I should like to refer. First of all, I should like to refer to the question of local development associations. I have been associated with a number of local development associations. It must be admitted that these associations throughout the country have done a tremendous amount of good work. I welcome in particular the recent steps taken towards co-ordinating the work of these associations. The stage has now been reached that a federation of local development associations has been formed. In my experience of these associations, I find that each one of them works independently in its efforts to attract industries. A considerable amount of money is expended, say, by two development associations in neighbouring towns in advertising in foreign journals, and so on. I have known cases where 14 or 20 replies have been received to an advertisement inserted by one association, from which perhaps two proposals were accepted as being likely to be suitable and the other 12 or 18 replies were thrown into the waste-paper basket. No effort was made to pass the information from one association to the other. The formation of a federation of local development associations will achieve a tremendous amount of good in promoting industries and I recommend it to the Minister as being worthy of every encouragement and help his Department can give.

On that matter, I should like to be fair and to say that, in my experience, local development associations have received every courtesy and co-operation from the Department of Industry and Commerce and the bodies connected with it such as the Industrial Development Authority and An Foras Tionscal.

There is another matter which is of vital importance and which comes within the ambit of the Department of Industry and Commerce, namely, the question of retail distribution. The system of retail distribution has been undergoing major changes in recent times. The advent of the supermarket has created serious problems for the traditional small family grocers who form such an important and responsible section of our community. A stage has now been reached when large combines are able to retail products at prices lower than the prices at which the small grocer can obtain them from the wholesaler.

It may not be easy for the Minister to intervene here but I note that in the Minister's introductory statement, reference was made to the Fair Trade Commission and I was glad to learn that the Fair Trade Commission have kept under review the restrictive trade practices in operation in relation to the grocery trade. This is a difficult problem and one to which I have given considerable thought and which I have discussed with numerous small business firms in the city of Limerick. I have also examined as best I could the whole organisation of supermarkets. I am perturbed at the prospect of the small family businesses of this country being put in jeopardy. The time is fast approaching when some action will have to be taken to halt the vast expansion of supermarkets.

Mr. Dolan

Ba mhaith liom comh-gáirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire as bocht na h-oibre atá á déanamh aige ins an bpost so. Is íontach an méid atá déanta aige ó tháinig sé isteach ins an oifig seo. Fíanaise air sin an oiread monarcháin atá scaipaithe ar fud na tíre. Fear eirimiúil, tuisceanach is ea an tAire, a thuigeann go maith an obair atá le déanamh aige agus molaim é dá bharr san.

First, I should like to congratulate the Minister on the outstanding ability he has displayed during his term as Minister for Industry and Commerce in promoting industrial development. Industrial development has been one of the planks in the Fianna Fáil platform. In order to absorb labour and reduce unemployment, a programme of industrial development was embarked on. That was a very difficult matter at the outset. Opposition was encountered in many areas to the establishment of factories by Irish people. It took many years to educate people to the fact that, given the opportunity, this country was capable of industrial development, that the labour available here is as good as can be obtained anywhere else, that our skills are equal to those of other countries, that our finished products could compete favourably with those of other countries that had been developed industrially long before we were able to compete in world markets. Most of the credit certainly goes to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and his predecessors from this side of the House who certainly did trojan work to foster our industrial arm.

Factories do not come into existence overnight and it was not always possible to provide from our own resources the necessary capital. Consequently, efforts were made to induce industrialists from other countries to invest money in major projects here that would help to create employment for our people at home. Foreign industrialists have found the Irish people friendly and co-operative. They have found the Irish worker willing to learn, with the ability to adapt himself to a new type of work in a very short time. In many instances, Irish personnel are in complete charge of these factories. In some, they are in the top positions. That is a credit to our people and to our workers. The Minister for Education announced recently a new scheme through the medium of which to turn out better qualified people from our vocational schools to play their part in industry. That will be of tremendous value in the future. It is a step in the right direction.

Foreigners do not come in here to invest their money in the country unless they have confidence in their project and are fairly sure there will be stability of Government. Indeed, the latter is one of the reasons why over the past five or six years there has been such a tremendous growth in factories here. Many of the larger centres of population are well served with factories now and perhaps something could be done from this on for the smaller towns and villages. Some effort should be made to provide a small factory in or adjacent to towns and villages, a factory employing ten or 20 people as compared with the larger units in the big cities and towns. Such factories would absorb unemployed labour in the rural areas.

The general tendency all over Europe and America, and it is the tendency here, too, is for fewer and fewer people to live on the land. That tendency continues. Most people now look forward to a weekly wage. One of the best ways of providing that is by establishing factories. There are some areas which are well catered for in this respect because of their geographical position and because the raw material is readily available. There are, however, areas in which there are many unemployed with very little hope of any major factory development. Perhaps it would be possible to encourage food processing in these areas, inducing the people to grow the raw material themselves. They would be quite willing to do this, I am sure, provided they had a guarantee as to market and price beforehand, a guarantee which would assure them of a reasonable standard of living.

Until we achieve that there will never be any hope of keeping these people on the small farms in the poorer areas, eking out a bare existence. They will certainly not be satisfied with the kind of existence their forefathers had. Small factories would be very useful in such areas. It is, of course, difficult to find markets abroad. The newly emergent countries do not provide a solution because they could not pay us prices which would assure our producers of an adequate recompense for their labour and their produce. The distilling industry should be capable of expansion. If our own people were more patriotic and asserted a preference for Irish whiskey instead of imported whiskey there could be a tremendous increase in the growing of barley for our distilleries. That would be a tremendous asset to the farmers and to the country as a whole.

There are many pockets throughout the country which have not benefited from the industrial drive, especially in the undeveloped areas which are not situated on the sea coast. My own constituency of Cavan is one such area. While it is not easy for the Minister to ask potential industrialists to establish their industries in these areas, the time will soon arise when it will be necessary to give these industrialists a greater incentive to establish themselves in such areas. I know areas in which there is adequate housing and all the amenities. There is even labour. The only thing missing is the factory. In other areas those working in the factories cannot find adequate housing and have to travel long distances to and from work. That situation could be remedied if industrialists were encouraged to establish themselves in areas where labour is conveniently available to man their industries.

In Cavan recently, the Ambassador Irish Oil Company discovered natural gas. The extent of the deposit is not yet known but the Minister should ensure that it will be investigated to the fullest extent in order to establish whether or not it is worth developing. If it is found to be a sound financial and economic proposition the Minister should ensure it is developed to the full. Such development would absorb a great number of unemployed.

Gypsum has also been discovered in the same area. My fear is that syndicates or individuals might take out a prospecting licence and then leave the area undeveloped. It is well known that there is an extensive market abroad for gypsum. If the seam is workable it would be a valuable asset to the area and to the nation from the point of view of our export market. I suggest it should be developed immediately.

Coal is fairly abundant in the area and, if there is sufficient coal, the second power station in that north western area should be erected near that coalfield, provided there is coal in sufficient quantity to make it an economic proposition. If there is not sufficient coal, then this natural gas might prove very useful indeed.

I am glad many of our people have now developed faith in the ability of their own nationals to establish and run factories and in the ability of Irish workers to produce finished goods which can compete favourably with goods produced elsewhere. We should be much more patriotic than we are with regard to goods produced here. It is the duty of all Irish people to try to ensure that their own kith and kin abroad will develop a preference for Irish goods and, so to speak, act as advertising agents for them. We can be very proud of what has been done already but there are smaller things such as Christmas cards, souvenir programmes, and so on, which are often sent abroad with a foreign mark on them "Made in England" or "Made in Japan". We should have now reached the stage of taking the time and the pains to support home industry so that we will not be insulting our exiles by sending them something that is not made in their own country. By doing that, we would be helping to promote the sale of our goods abroad.

In regard to people from abroad who have come in here to establish factories, I personally welcome these people. I have a specific example of it in my own constituency where in the shoe business, ordinary wooden heels were being manufactured. Were it not for the fact that a foreign expert visiting this country had new machinery installed at this factory, I am quite sure it would never have been able to change over to the manufacture of stiletto heels and would probably have gone out of production altogether. We have benefited from these people coming in here. It is no slur on us that we are a nation that was not brought up industrially-minded but the fact that these foreigners come here is a sign of the confidence they have in our ability to build up this country.

It is the duty of every one of us to ensure that not alone in this country but wherever we go, if possible, the articles we buy are manufactured in our own country. By doing that, we will be doing much more than paying lip service to the idea of keeping our own people at home. There is nothing so irritating as to hear people talking of emigration and the flight from the land when the very people who are loudest in their condemnation will not buy Irish goods when they can do so.

Molaim an tAire é féin mar táim sásta go bhfuil obair an-mhaith á déanamh aige agus tá fhíos agam go maith go leanfaidh sé den dea-obair sin agus má leanann táim cinnte an bhliain seo chugainn go mbeimid imithe céim eile ar aghaidh ar an bhothar ceart maidir le tionscail nua do bhunú. Mar Aire a thagann ón chuid den tír in a bhfuil an chuid is mó d'oibritheoirí monarcan na tíre agus mar Aire a thuigeann i gceart a ghnó, iarraim air dul ar aghaidh leis an dea-obair sin. Déanaim comhgáird-eachas le Foras Tionscal chomh mhaith as ucht a bhfuil déanta aca go dtí seo agus táim cinnte má leanann siad ar an mbothar sin go mbeidh a bhfád níos mó daoine ag obair sa tír seo ins na monarchain ná mar atá anois.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister is asking us here for £4½ million, a sizable sum. When one realises that each year the demand is increasing, one is entitled to ask how this demand is to be met from a decreasing population. Having heard in the years gone by what Fianna Fáil intended to do to stop emigration and to provide employment, I can say without contradiction as far as my constituency is concerned that there will be no one left but the old age pensioners to meet this demand. I should like to know what Fianna Fáil will do to stem— I was going to say the stream of emigration—the deluge of emigration, because that is what it amounts to, from along the western seaboard. The Minister may say that certain industries were set up. I can assure the Minister that no industries would have been set up in my area, were it not for the great work done by Galway Corporation in providing sites and the work done by the inter-Party Government in encouraging industry and giving certain tax reliefs. Recently I had a reply from the Minister for Social Welfare to a question and that is how we can measure this Estimate. In my area, for all the talk of industries having been set up, still there is an increase in the numbers signing at the Galway employment exchange.

While we welcome foreign industrialists who will give us the know-how that we possibly lack, we are entitled to ask what has been done for the Irish-based industries. When I say that, I do not mean those that have been sheltering for years behind tariff walls. I am asking about the industries that will now have to meet world-wide competition. What has been done to give an injection to those industries? Many of them have been turned down when a request was made for grants. Are we to let these industries fall by the wayside? Are we to ignore them? Many of these industries are based on the raw materials from the west and when I talk of the west, I include the Islands of Aran. I should like to know what the Department are doing for the little industries there, the little industries that mean so much to the people of the Aran Islands?

This Estimate demands £4½ million from the people and I think this is an occasion when the people are entitled to ask where it is going. The whole matter is being sewn up by Fianna Fáil and the people must pay up.

We have three types of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics, and we have many statistics in this Estimate. We have all this talk of increased numbers in employment while it is true beyond doubt that there were fewer people in insurable employment in the past year than ever. Statistics can be very misleading. While this Estimate may do a certain amount to delay the intending emigrant, it does not do enough. Unless more is done, other than lip service, the country will suffer while the Government Ministers get big headlines following their after-dinner speeches. The country is only looking for a chance of dealing with the Fianna Fáil Government who have led them up the garden path long enough. We must judge on the facts: "By their fruits shall ye know them". This Estimate is not very hopeful for the people I represent. I should like to see more being done for the small people. The big industrialists are all right. The small cottage industries of the west should be considered and the Minister should direct his attention towards them.

Is there not a danger that we have too many organisations, institutions, boards and other groups that are prepared to sit longer than a clucking hen before giving their views as to the proper steps to be taken? I suggest there should be a little cleaning up in these departments. When the Estimate comes around again, I hope it will contain something to offer greater hope for the people I represent.

Mr. Clinton

I hope the fact that I have very little to say on the Estimate will not be taken as indicating any lack of interest in it on my part and in the progress and establishment of industries in the country. Every Deputy should be concerned about industry. We should be interested first to see that existing industries get all the assistance and facilities that we can possibly provide so that they will become more efficient and competitive, and so that we can ensure they will be kept in production and the various difficulties that arise will be considered urgently and a solution found for them with the greatest possible speed, thereby maintaining employment.

In my experience as a Deputy in Dublin, I have come across at least a couple of industries which have had more than sufficient difficulties and those running them felt that they had nobody to turn to for assistance in their difficulties. While there was a considerable amount of concern about the establishment of these industries, after that there was no further concern. The most recent case of which I heard is of an industry set up here less than a year ago without any State assistance whatever. They have employed between 100 and 150 people continuously. In that short period, they have exported all their production, amounting to something in the region of £150,000. Their biggest difficulty apparently arises with the customs. They find often that materials they require urgently are held up in the customs for as long as a month or five weeks. On occasion, they had to let 50 workers go because apparently stuff could not be cleared. This is a serious position which requires something to be done by somebody.

This same firm have to bring some of their raw materials a very long distance and delivery is in the region of eight weeks. As a result, they have to carry very large stocks of expensive raw materials. When the Minister was speaking here on the Industrial Grants Bill, I was aware of the difficulties of this firm and I put the question specifically to the Minister: could the loans he had been describing be applied to an industry which required to carry heavy stocks of export materials? The Minister said quite clearly: "Yes, they could be applied for that purpose." This firm applied for those loans. They were told that, although they could be applied for that purpose, it was not the purpose for which they were intended. They were not facilitated.

The firm have also run into difficulties in the training of personnel. I foolishly thought that under these adaptation grants, they could apply for assistance. Again, they tell me they applied but were told it does not apply in the Dublin region. I was very disappointed to hear that, because undoubtedly they have gone to considerable expense in training Irish workers not familiar with that type of work. As a result, there is a serious danger this industry may reduce its employment content considerably. In fact, there might be a danger of losing the industry altogether. This is the kind of thing some authority should be concerned with. If we have an industry giving so much employment and exporting that amount of goods, we should mind it.

There seems to be a prejudice—I can put it no other way—about the establishment of industry in the Dublin region. Rightly or wrongly, that indicates to me excessive caution. It indicates to some extent a disregard for the number of unemployed we have. Many smaller proposals get only scant consideration. There are many reasons why people must start in a small way. Some of these industrialists have considerable experience of industry in their own countries. They do not want to jump in here immediately. They have to set up an organisation for various aspects of their work. They prefer to come in here in a fairly small way and develop cautiously and safely. If they see the potential here, they are extremely anxious to expand. That, too, should be recognised to some extent. There should be a graded arrangement. If it is a big industry with big employment and export potential, it should be treated on that basis, but the smaller industries should also be recognised. We should say: "It has cost so much to establish this industry and we are prepared to meet it by giving a certain amount."

One of the first things you have to prove is that you cannot do without the money. There are few industries who will be prepared to get money by saying they are unable out of their own resources to establish the industry. There are few also who are prepared to say they have plenty of money. If that were so, no difficulty would arise and there would be no necessity to have organisations for the promotion of industries here. As I said before, I am afraid the organisations we have at present are excessively cautious, that they spend more time trying to disqualify or to establish reasons why a proposition should be turned down than they spend going out investigating the possibilities of establishing industries.

Much work that could be done in this country is being done outside it. I can give a small example. The other day I picked up a beer mat advertising a well-known beer. On the back of it was a nice Percy French verse and at the bottom was "Printed in Germany". Only this week, we heard a great deal about the efficiency of our printing industry. It is only a small thing but it indicates what I have in mind. If we had an organisation here which would go out to find work for even five or ten men, instead of allowing such small jobs to be done elsewhere, we would increase enormously the employment opportunities here. Last year an additional 5,000 people went into industry, but 19,000 left agriculture.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 22 May 1963

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Industry and Commerce.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 May 1963