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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Oct 1963

Vol. 205 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Local Government.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities, Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, and Miscellaneous Grants.

The chief increases in the Department's Estimate over that for last year include sums of £35,000 in respect of contributions towards local housing loan charges; £100,000 in the provision for contributions towards loan charges of sanitary authorities and towards the provision of private water supply and sewerage facilities. The largest increase under any subhead is £250,000 to bring the provision for grants for private housing up to a total of £2,750,000.

The number of local authority houses completed in 1962/63 was 1,828, an increase of 47 per cent on the output in the previous year. These include 643 dwellings erected by Dublin Corporation as compared with 392 in 1961/62 and 277 in 1960/61. At the 31st March last the Corporation had 1,156 houses either in progress or at tender stage.

Figures for the present year so far indicate that this higher level of building by local authorities is being maintained if not increased. Completions to the end of August, the latest date for which figures are available, are up from 744 to 767 while dwellings in progress at the end of that month are up from 2,591 the previous year to 2,798. The figures for dwellings at tender stage at the end of August are also up from 857 the previous year to 1,560. The value of tenders approved in the six months ended 30/9/63 was £3,073,000 as compared with £3,435,000 for the whole year ended 31/3/63 and £3,019,000 for the previous year.

The increase noticeable for some time past in the demand for dwellings in Dublin city and many other areas from those eligible for rehousing under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, which is related to the overall change in population trends and to the falling emigration rate, has continued in the current year. At a recent date, the certified needs, that is, the number of families certified by the medical officer as being in need of rehousing in Dublin city, was approximately 5,000. The number of further applications on hands was about 4,500. No recent allocation of tenancies has been made to the applicants on the priority lists because of the decision to allocate all vacancies for the present to those displaced through operations under the dangerous buildings code.

The policy of the Dublin Corporation over the years of giving priority to the rehousing of families from the older houses and not completely clearing them in the process, left a considerable number of older houses still occupied which had reached or passed the end of their useful life. The weather extremes of the past 12 months during which a long period of wet and extremely cold weather was followed by a warm spell and a thunderstorm in June last caused a rapid deterioration of many of these houses and the complete collapse of three dwellings causing four deaths. The operations of the Dangerous Buildings Section of the Dublin Corporation had to be stepped up to meet the situation and by the end of September dangerous buildings notices requiring evacuation had been issued in the case of 367 houses. The number of families involved was 1,189, consisting of 615 families of three or more persons, 248 families of two persons and 326 single person families.

By suspending the list of ordinary priorities and allocating tenancies only to families displaced from dangerous buildings, by taking over houses as soon as completed by the builders rather than waiting for the completion of whole schemes, and by re-allocating vacancies more rapidly, the Corporation have been able to offer accommodation to 503 of the families of 3 or more persons, 90 families of two persons, and 105 single person families.

In order to expand as rapidly as possible their current building programme the Corporation's proposal to extend existing contracts at the same rates for additional schemes has been agreed to in order to save the time normally given to the preparation of contract documents, advertising, and so on. These and other emergency measures will enable the Corporation programme to be stepped up from a completion rate of 643 for last year to an estimated 850 for the current year and 950 for the following year.

I have discussed with representatives of the Corporation the possibility of further increases in housing output by new or improved methods and consequential discussions between officers of the Department and officials of the Corporation on the short-term and long-term programmes have been taking place. One of the points discussed was the housing of one and two persons families, for which the Corporation's programme had never been geared to producing accommodation in the numbers now required. In order to meet the needs of this class in the interim period, while suitable small-type dwellings are being designed and built, the Corporation decided to provide 100 temporary dwellings to a caravan design on sites not required for the permanent building programme.

The use of industrialised building methods and techniques in other countries as a means of meeting their housing needs has been watched with interest.Little progress has, however, been made in the provision of housing by such methods in this country, although Dublin Corporation, by designing a standard flat block and standardising components for their house building, can claim to have made their dwelling production more efficient as a result. Apart from this, however, the Corporation have not taken any initiative in recent years in investigating whether any system other than traditional building would be more suitable for their needs, or would help to achieve an expanded output.

In view of the extent of unfit houses in rural areas disclosed by the housing survey and the difficulty experienced by local authorities in getting contractors and, in addition, the urgent need for expansion of output in the Dublin city area to meet the needs so much accentuated by the recent evacuations it was considered desirable to have an intensive investigation of the new methods and to invite building concerns interested to submit any proposals they might have for the erection of houses by other than traditional methods. This invitation has been publicly advertised in the daily press and in the technical journals here, in England, and in several continental countries. Many replies have been, and are continuing to be, received and discussions have taken place with interested parties anxious to ascertain the position preparatory to putting forward proposals. Any such proposals would be examined with a view to seeing whether the methods projected could be usefully fitted into a planned programme of housing output.

As regards private housing, the amount provided for the financial year 1963-64, £2.75 million, shows an increase of £250,000 over the expenditure in the previous year. This is necessitated by reason of the high level of the demand for all types of grants which continued during the year 1962-63.Grant allocations in that year reached the highest figure ever recorded at 23,442, representing an increase of over 7 per cent on the figure for the previous year, which, of itself, was a record allocation. New house grant allocations, at 5,706, increased by 18 per cent on the previous year, while allocations for the provision of water and sewerage facilities at 4,068 increased by over 24 per cent. This high level of activity has been maintained in the current financial year.

The existing allocation rate for the provision of water supply and sewerage (4,000 cases) is likely to expand considerably as a result of the taking over by my Department of the scheme formerly operated by the Department of Agriculture for the provision of water supplies in farm houses. In addition, activity on group schemes is increasing.

The survey which housing authorities commenced in 1960, to ascertain the extent of unfit housing which now remains, has not been completed in detail in all areas. Analysis of the available returns, however, including pilot surveys and estimates, shows that the volume of housing which local authorities regard as being in need of replacement is of the order of 25,000 dwellings, of which 20,000 are in rural areas. About 50 per cent of all unfit dwellings are occupied by householders of one or two persons. The most difficult housing problem is, therefore, the replacement of unfit houses in rural areas. To meet this need, a continuation and expansion of social building in these areas is necessary to supplement the increased rate of building of private houses.

The problem will demand a variety of measures for its solution, but it is likely that any intensified attack on it will involve a continued expansion of the number of private grant cases in the next few years. Housing authorities can assist in the matter of unfit housing conditions in rural areas by using the powers provided under Section 5 of the 1962 Act to assist the carrying out of essential repairs or to carry out such repairs themselves where the object is to make the dwelling reasonably habitable for a limited period.

I was glad to be able to announce during the year increases in the subsidisable limits of capital costs of dwellings provided by housing authorities.The new limits are 10 per cent higher in each case than the figures which previously obtained and they have been given retrospective effect so as to apply to dwellings commenced on or after the 1st April, 1961, or in respect of which loans were sanctioned on or after that date. This increase in State subsidy should encourage housing authorities to speed up their housing programmes so as to eliminate finally the remaining pockets of unfit and overcrowded dwellings. I am pleased to note a quickening of the tempo of house-building by local authorities in a number of areas.

The enactment of the Housing (Loans and Grants) Act, 1962, which became law on the 10th August, 1962, and which amended and consolidated the grant and loan provisions of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous) Provisions Acts, 1932 to 1960, was a first step towards the simplification and modernisation of the general housing code. A further measure is envisaged in which many aspects of the law relating to local authority housing will be dealt with.

The 1962 Act enabled supplementary housing grants to be made on a more generous basis and to wider categories of applicants than previously. A high proportion of rural housing authorities have amended their supplementary grant schemes to take advantage of the new provisions, but I regret to note that very few urban authorities have done so. Indeed, a number of urban authorities do not make supplementary grants at all. These grants can help to bring about a desirable balance between private and public building in any area and urban authorities who do not yet operate grant schemes would generally find, on reconsideration, that to do so would be substantially to their own benefit.

There is a further facility which I would like to see housing authorities providing on a more enterprising basis than heretofore for persons building their own houses. The authorities should ensure that persons who are prepared to provide houses for themselves will be able to get a suitable site on reasonable terms in the locality where they wish to build. Too many people are inhibited from undertaking the task of providing their own dwellings by the difficulties which they experience at the outset in obtaining suitable sites. I appeal again to all housing authorities to take a more active approach to this problem of providing developed sites for private houses and to foster a demand for such sites. Action to make private sites available would be in the local authority's own interest, since many of the people who would take the sites would otherwise have to seek to have their housing needs met by direct local authority building.

I have stressed to local authorities on a number of occasions the importance which I attach to the encouragement of tenants of local authority houses to become owners of their own houses. I am glad to note in this connection that the work of vesting of cottages under the Labourers Act, 1936, is very far advanced in most counties. It is regrettable, therefore, that in a number of other areas progress with cottage vesting is entirely unsatisfactory. I would ask local authorities who, for one reason or another, have allowed a backlog of applications for vesting to accumulate to deal with the arrears as early as possible.Many urban housing authorities have made schemes under which tenants may purchase their dwellings but the degree of response from urban tenants shows marked variations from one area to another, notwithstanding that all the schemes formulated are drawn on lines which one would expect would prove attractive to the tenants.

The sum of £575,000 provided in Subhead G for sanitary services includes £500,000 for contributions towards loan charges of local authorities, an increase of £25,000 on last year's provision. At the 31st March last, work was in progress on a total of 196 schemes at an estimated cost of £5m as compared with 103 schemes costing £3m at the same date in 1962. Another £2m worth of schemes was ready to start, while the value of pending work at the tender and contract document stages totalled over £12m. The total value of schemes at contract document and later stages therefore amounted to over £19m as compared with £13m in March, 1962, and £10m in March, 1961. The prospects are that the programme will continue at a satisfactory level for the future.

There are, however, a few county councils who have not yet come to grips with their local problems. Apart from exhorting these councils to get into step with their neighbours, I must particularly ask them to make up their minds quickly in regard to the extent of the works they propose to undertake.This would enable persons and organisations to go ahead with grant-aided schemes in areas not included in county council programmes. Where satisfactory county programmes are in progress, I should like to remind the county councils concerned of the need for vigilance in order to ensure that a regular flow of work will be let to civil engineering contractors at a rate with which their organisations can cope.

A critical eye must also be kept on price levels to ensure that the increased volume of work does not result in price increases. Every effort should be made to encourage healthy competition in tendering and to attract any new organisations that are willing and qualified to enter the field of public works contracting and who have the necessary qualifications for undertaking the work. The rapid development of the sanitary services programme has thrown up many complex engineering and related problems affecting the planning, design and execution of large schemes. I have decided to establish a consultative council of engineering experts to advise on these problems as they arise.

The existing grant allocation rate for the provision of private water supply and sewerage, which has now reached 4,000 cases a year, is capable of considerable expansion. In previous years some Deputies referred to the possibility of duplication and overlapping between the private grant schemes for domestic water supplies operated by my Department and by the Department of Agriculture. These schemes have now been replaced by a unified scheme administered by my Department which was brought into operation from 1st July last.

The new scheme provides for aggregate State and local authority supplementary grants of two-thirds of the cost of piped water and sewerage installations, up to a maximum of £100 in the case of water and £50 in the case of sewerage facilities. Where, after 1st April, 1963, a number of applicants group together and instal a water supply or sewerage system by co-operative effort, the State grant will be increased to a maximum of £60 a house and a similar amount may be paid by the local authority. In the case of sewerage facilities provided on a group basis, the grants from the State and the local authority will be £30 each. The higher grants will, I hope, prove an incentive to rural organisations and groups to work together and thereby avail themselves of the benefits of joint services.

The scheme contains a new provision for recouping local authorities their full outlay on supplementary water supply grants paid to the rated occupiers of agricultural holdings, who would have been eligible for grants under the scheme hitherto operated by the Department of Agriculture. Grants will be payable in future for all approved works costing more than £10. There will be no restriction such as the 100 ft distance requirement which obtained formerly in regard to connections to a public supply. A sum of £75,000 is provided in Subhead G to meet expenditure on these grants and on the contributions to local authorities.

The Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1962, has greatly improved the facilities for fruitful co-operation between sanitary authorities and private persons and organisations promoting private installations and group water supply schemes. I hope that councils will avail themselves in full of the new powers. For my part, I propose to have the scheme operated as simply as possible with the minimum of paper work.

The programme for publicising piped water supplies in rural areas was continued during the year. A start was also made with the co-operation of Telefís Éireann in publicising fire hazards and water safety precautions.

The preliminary review of existing fire legislation has been completed and good progress has been made by the Fire Standards Committee who are finalising their draft of revised standards.

With regard to the provision of adequate swimming facilities, 19 local authorities have approved the provision of swimming pools and in three cases the proposals are at the contract document or later stages. I have approved outline plans of a pool at Crumlin submitted by Dublin Corporation.Local authorities are quite properly concerned at the high capital cost of swimming pools. While the covered, heated swimming pool gives the best value in the long run, only the larger centres of population can afford to provide them. I have circulated some technical information on the design and cost planning of swimming pools. Further research is clearly necessary to get a satisfactory covered or partly covered pool which can be erected at a cost that the smaller urban authorities would consider within their reach. This matter is being pursued in conjunction with developments elsewhere.Meanwhile I would recommend the smaller urban authorities to provide at least the minimum required for the teaching of swimming and for bathing and recreation for children.

So much has been said in recent times both in this House and elsewhere about town planning that it is not necessary for me to review our policy and proposals on this Estimate. Regulations are being drafted to enable the new legislation to be operated.The number of appeals being received is increasing year by year; 457 appeals were lodged in 1962-63 as compared with 392 for the preceding year. The number disposed of was 354 of which 86 were withdrawn by agreement or found invalid. The number formally determined was 268 of which 88 were allowed and 50 were allowed subject to conditions. The decision of the planning authority was confirmed in 130 cases.

Under Subhead K, grants are provided for the acquisition, clearance and improvement of derelict sites. These grants are payable to private persons, local authorities, local development associations and similar bodies. The maximum grant is £100 and works costing less than £30 are not eligible. The greatest response to this scheme continues to be from private individuals. A number of local authorities are operating the provisions of the Derelict Sites Act, 1961, by requiring the owners of the derelict sites to give undertakings for clearance or development. If local authorities generally tackle the problem in this way, it would result in an increase in private effort to remove eyesores which continue to spoil the appearance of their towns and countryside.

Grants are also payable under Subhead K to local authorities and local development associations for works of public amenity. The grant amounts to 50 per cent of the cost of approved works of £100 or over. Eligible works include the provision and development of parks, open spaces, playing fields, riverside walks, works at beaches, means of access, the opening up of views and prospects, landscaping of historic buildings, ornamental tree planting, seating, shelters, car parks in scenic areas, public caravan parks, provision of museums and the protection of places and objects of interest. The initial encouraging response to this scheme has been maintained. Ninety schemes were submitted by local authorities in the past year and 47 by local development associations and similar bodies.

In the sphere of road traffic I have established a new road traffic section to bring into force and implement the Road Traffic Act, 1961. A total of 103 sections and parts of two others have already been brought into force. Those which deal with the more serious driving offences and those which provide for regulations and bye-laws to deal with traffic control were brought in immediately in October, 1961. The compulsory insurance provisions came into force in May, 1962. On the 1st April, 1963, the provisions on speed limits were brought into operation. As from 27th October, provisions will come into force which enable regulations to be made on the construction, equipment and use of vehicles and the control of public service vehicles. The relevant regulations have been made to take effect from the same date.

As regards speed limits, the propriety of fixing particular limits or any limit at particular places gave rise to a number of questions in this House and elsewhere. I need only repeat now that at every stage there was full consultation with the local authorities, that the local technical committees will review the limits each year and that in the meantime I would ask Deputies and the public generally to show forbearance and not to press for immediate changes in regulations which have been so recently made. I wish to thank for their co-operation the Press, the radio and television authority and the local authorities and the technical committees.

The regulations on traffic signs were replaced last year by a comprehensive instrument providing for standard signs based on international recommendations.In spite of the fact that my Department has given advice to road authorities about the siting, height and maintenance of these signs, we often see them badly placed or obscured by roadside trees or hedge-rows.They are also sometimes wantonly damaged. I would therefore appeal for local co-operation and the exercise of civic spirit by residents and road users alike to ensure that these signs fulfil the purpose for which they were intended. My Department has at present in hands a further study on the question of road signs, and particularly roadway markings, with a view to effecting desired improvements.In particular, it is in mind having the more important main roads in the country marked with central lines for their full length.

Bye-laws made during the year by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána include byelaws to deal with the parking problem in Dublin, their primary purpose being to assist the movement of traffic, particularly during peak hours, and to enable people having business to do in the central city area to get short-term parking facilities for the purpose. Associated with these bye-laws were the regulations I made for the system familiarly, but erroneously, known as "fines on the spot".

Some steps have been taken to provide additional off-street parking facilities, the cost of which when undertaken by a local authority can be charged to their Road Fund grants. The construction of 13 car parks on this basis has been approved. In Dublin, a scheme for a car park under the new Corporation flats in Dominick Street has been approved in principle and three other surface parking schemes have also been approved. Arrangements have been made in Dublin for the provision of 18 new zebra crossings and 5 sets of pedestrian lights as well as the erection of 10 new sets of traffic lights.

As regards the regulations which I recently made, they are designed to ensure that the vehicles which use our roads will be properly lit and otherwise properly equipped and constructed.They take account of the latest European recommendations on the subject. It is intended that these regulations will be kept constantly under review in the light of developments here and abroad. I may mention that, under the regulations, the dipping of headlamps is compulsory in specified circumstances, and the use of the horn is forbidden in built-up areas after 11.30 p.m.

Two important features of the 1961 Act which have yet to be brought into force are the schemes for driver testing and for vehicle testing. Both involve an immense amount of detailed advance planning in order to establish the organisation and to provide the means for effective administration of the statutory powers. The preparatory work for driver testing is well advanced and arrangements are being made for the recruitment of the necessary testing staff and the provision of facilities for the work. I propose to announce details of the contents of comprehensive regulations in relation to the licensing of drivers in the near future.

The scheme for vehicle testing must of necessity be related to the standards for construction and equipment of vehicles in connection with which regulations have, as I have already said, been made recently. There could be no degree of finality in relation to the vehicle testing scheme until the standards had been prescribed but, now that this has been done, the formulation of a scheme can be pressed forward.

Generally speaking I am pleased to be able to say that the programme of implementation which we envisaged when the Act was passed is making good progress.

The report of the Commission on "Driving While Under the Influence of Alcohol or a Drug" was published on 4th October. I take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation to the Chairman and the other members of the Commission for the thorough manner in which they tackled the job. As the House is aware, the Government have accepted the general import of the Commission's recommendations, but will consider further certain aspects of it. I have invited anybody interested to furnish his views on the subject before the 30th November, when the preparation of a Bill will be put in hands.

Now as to the roads themselves, the numbers of motor vehicles, particularly private cars, continue to increase. This evidence of growing national affluence creates, however, consequential problems and underlines the need for an expanded programme of road improvements, particularly on the arteries that bear the most of the increased volume of traffic.

As set out in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, a study is being made of the roads programme to determine whether the national network of roads is being adequately developed to cater for the seven per cent annual growth of road traffic which is estimated to continue throughout the second programme. A comprehensive national traffic census is being undertaken by my Department and, when its results have been processed and analysed, it will be possible to establish the priorities to be observed in the roads programme. As part of the objective of getting far more information than is at present available on traffic flows on a national basis, a census of traffic on the main roads in rural areas was taken on Thursday and Friday, the 22nd and 23rd August last and a considerable amount of useful information will be available shortly as to the density and type of traffic on the rural main roads. This information will be integrated and merged with the nationwide traffic census which will be undertaken in the near future and which will provide the basis for a comprehensive re-classification of the roads system.

Excellent progress has been made in the last 15 years in bringing our county road system up to a reasonable standard.In the period 1953-54 to 1961-62 a sum of £24.7 million was expended on county road improvements, compared with £15.8 million on main road improvements. There is now an extensive mileage of high-class county roads serving the farming community but the other side of the picture shows a serious backlog of improvement schemes needed on the main roads, particularly on those which may be described as arterial or national routes. Not only has the standard of these roads to be brought up to date, but it is desirable that the road improvement works planned and executed now should be adequate to cope with further large increases anticipated in the volume of traffic.

These considerations have led me to decide on a cessation of the grants for county road improvements schemes in the counties where the programmes for these schemes have been completed and a modification of the grants in areas where substantial progress to completion has been made. The modifications in the distribution of Road Fund resources have been conservatively planned so that there is as much available in the grant for county roads this year in relation to the present unimproved mileage of 18,000 as there was in 1956 for the unimproved mileage which then stood at 30,000, or in 1959 for a mileage of 26,500. In regard to the grants allocated for county road improvement schemes, attention has been drawn to the possibility of achieving improvement at greatly reduced costs by the introduction or extension of the use of modern low-cost methods, particularly the bladegrading system and the use of gravel instead of stone. No reduction in the grant for county roads is being made in counties which had less than 50 per cent of county roads dust free on the 31st March, 1962. In the case of counties above the 50 per cent level, the amounts of the grants have been reduced on a basis proportionate to the dust free mileage in each case.

As regards main roads structurally unfit to take the present volume of traffic and also main roads which deteriorated in the bad weather of last winter, and finally in regard to the arterial routes, the recasting of grants is intended to enable essential improvement works to be undertaken on these important categories of roads. The main features of the current year's scheme of Road Fund grants in the counties may be gathered from the total allocation under the three principal heads, namely, £2,403,000 for county road improvements; £1,499,900 for main road improvements and £1,000,000 for arterial roads.

The urban road grant and the grants to county boroughs, tourist road grants and grants for bridges, have all been retained at the same level as last year, as is also the main road upkeep grant fixed last year at the increased level of 50 per cent.

In most of the areas where the county road improvement grant was reduced, this was done without reducing the overall allocation of Road Fund grants to the counties in question because, by and large, the counties which had made most progress with their county road improvements are those containing stretches of arterial roads which qualify for a share in the new £1 million arterial road grant. It will, however, be necessary to undertake a comprehensive review of the entire system of Road Fund grant allocations in the light of the information which will be available from the traffic census.

The total revenue expenditure of local authorities, excluding vocational education committees, committees of agriculture and harbour authorities was £66.22 million in the past financial year and the corresponding figure for the current year is estimated at £69.03 million. In 1962/63 the receipts from rates amounted to £22.773 million and State grants to £30.647 million. In the current year estimated receipts from rates, £23.74 million, will meet 34.39 per cent of estimated expenditure, while State grants of £31.876 million will meet 46.18 per cent of that expenditure.The tendency to meet an increasing percentage of local expenditure by State grants, which has been evident for a number of years past, was greatly accentuated last year by the more generous scheme of allowances introduced by the Rates on Agricultural Land Relief Act, 1962. The further rate reliefs under the Act added about £2½ million to the total which would have been payable in 1962-63 under the preceding scheme of grants. The grant for 1962-63 was £8.53 million and it is estimated that it will total £8.93 million in the current year.

Capital expenditure of local authorities last year was £12.4 million, an increase of £1.7 million on that of the previous year. The bulk of the capital was obtained from the Local Loans Fund. The total indebtedness of local authorities at 31st March last, excluding amounts held in sinking funds, is estimated at £159.4 million.

The total indebtedness of local authorities has been rising steadily in recent years. This has been due to a number of factors, notably the big extension in the volume and cost, including cost of wages, of work being carried out by local authorities in housing, sanitary services, roads and so on and their more liberal attitude towards financial aid for private housing work, but still more so by the change in the form of state subventions to subsidy of loan charges rather than by way of capital grants, and improved wage rates and conditions for workers.

The outstanding debt does not, of course, constitute a dead-weight liability on local authorities. In fact, less than one-third of the outstanding debt will fall to be repaid out of local rates; the balance will be met by state subsidies and income from rents of local authority dwellings, repayment of loans under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts, and other sources.

I move:

"That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration."

The Minister's statement, coming almost seven months after the commencement of the year to which it refers, highlights three main features of the Department's work, and I notice that the Minister devoted a large part of his statement to housing. In lesser order, he dealt with roads and the traffic problem; then with amenity works and finally with the question of expenditure.

No doubt the importance which the Minister has given to housing is a factor very much in the minds of the people in the country at the present time. It is not alone a question emphasised by the fact that motions on the subject have been placed on the Order Paper in regard to centres such as Dublin, because anybody reading the newspaper reports as late as yesterday will have noticed that the national Press have been giving attention to the substantial nature of the difficulties in regard to housing apparent in centres other than Dublin.

In reference to my own constituency, I was able to gather from the evening papers yesterday that in Limerick quite a number of families are finding difficulty in being rehoused or being moved from dangerous buildings. A deputation of them met the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. From the same report, I noted that people in Dublin are still troubled by housing difficulties and that the rumblings which continue in these old buildings still strike panic into the hearts of many citizens.

It is therefore right and proper that the Minister should give such a large amount of his time to the question of housing. I want to say at the beginning that this is a matter which is of as much concern to the Minister—he expressed his concern on it today—as to every member of the House, but I had hoped the general picture in regard to housing would have been resolved at this stage and that the housing survey instituted in 1960 would have brought some tangible figures for the country at large on which a firm programme of house building could be embarked.

There are, of course, difficulties in this respect. Perhaps in places such as Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and the other larger centres, the same difficulty does not arise in estimating more speedily the needs of the people in regard to housing, but in the rural areas it does pose a large problem and I should have been interested to hear the Minister advert to that fact and to the solution of the problem facing the various local authorities in trying to get an accurate assessment of the programme they have to tackle.

Taking my own constituency as a fair example of the problem that exists at the moment, the local authority there are depending on the services of the health inspectors. The activities of those men, who operate under the local health authority, are limited by the amount of time they have to give to the other duties for which they are responsible. I notice that the county manager in Limerick, in submitting a report to the county council recently, referred to the fact that this survey is not complete and that the situation is still quite hazy in regard to the needs of the area. I assert, as I did last year, that it is a fair estimate that one per cent of the number of dwellings existing in any county at a certain time need to be replaced. I have inquired today from the authorities and I find that the position is no different today from what it was last year, that somewhere in the region of 300 to 340 houses require to be provided by Limerick County Council to meet the needs of the people in the area. That estimate is based on the pilot survey conducted in 1961.

Before we can plan nationally in regard to housing generally, we must have a proper survey of the needs. Of course, that does not in any way detract from the immediate necessity to deal with the problems of people who need housing, who are living in unfit or crowded houses or houses which are insanitary or which are dangerous.

The Minister has referred to the question of emergency measures. I respectfully suggest that the whole problem of housing is of an emergency type not alone in Dublin, Cork and Limerick but in many other parts of the country. Wherever there are people living in bad housing conditions we ought to deal with the problem. Anything that impedes progress in the matter of housing should be rigorously examined. If remedies are available it is the duty of those concerned to suggest what the remedies might be so that bad housing conditions can be dealt with at the earliest possible time.

The Minister mentioned that the figures in regard to housing are improving.I am glad that is so. It is well known that there is a backlog that must be made up. Are we satisfied that all the steps that can reasonably be taken to deal with the housing situation are being taken? The Minister mentioned last year that he was laying the blame at the feet of the local authorities for delay in the preparation and production of documents which must be submitted to his Department. Does the Minister feel that his strictures on the local authorities have had any effect? Has there been any improvement in the matter? Last year I and many other Deputies suggested that the Department was not entirely without blame in the matter of having the backlog of work cleared so that housing authorities could proceed with their building programmes. I have noticed from Press reports and have heard from Deputies of my own Party that in some parts of the country difficulty is experienced in having housing plans implemented. Surely, by a combinatiton of effort at local authority and departmental levels it ought to be possible so to arrange affairs as to create order out of the chaos that exists in regard to housing? It has come to my notice in the past few days that county councils have criticised the slowness on the part of the Department of Local Government in letting local authorities have the results of compulsory purchase orders.

I am sure that during the course of the debate Deputies of various Parties will have occasion to refer specifically to the housing situation as it exists in their constituencies. Without having a complete picture of housing needs it is difficult to suggest what the programme should be but it would appear that the problem is a very large one. I have heard it suggested that in Kerry, for instance, over 9,000 rural houses are required to replace houses that need to be replaced. I have mentioned the replacement figure of 300 to 340 houses in County Limerick. I believe that to be a real estimate of the needs. The council have been able in the year 1962-63 to complete only 19 rural houses and 16 urban houses. There are 14 to 16 rural houses in course of building at present in the rural areas and about 32 in urban areas and there are tenders invited for a further 14 houses. That is measured progress and I suggest that the progress is much too slow and that we are imposing on the people who have to live in unsuitable homes conditions that we should take every step to eradicate.

It is reasonable to inquire why it is that the housing drive is not proceeding as well as it should; what is tending to slow it down. I have tried to analyse the situation by reviewing the position in County Limerick. I find that when the local authority advertise contracts, they do not find it easy to get contractors. One is forced to the conclusion that the contractors are engaged in more remunerative work or that their tenders for local authority contracts are not approved. I take it that contractors tender at the normal, reasonable levels and, therefore, that they are being rejected by the local officials dealing with them because they have to work within a set framework or, if the tenders do come to the Department, that they are sent back for review.

One matter which has affected the situation in rural areas is the fact that last year the Minister embarked on a scheme of serviced houses generally in rural areas. That immediately created an extra problem in the provision of rural houses. First and foremost, there was the question of sites. At that stage some sites had been secured and some were in the course of acquisition by the local authority. Where sites had been secured, approval was sought from the Department, and this is one of the little matters which might be ironed out very easily. I understand that in the case of a site for a rural house which has now to be serviced, the local authority may not take that site without first seeking approval from the Department as to its suitability. If that is so—and I have no reason to think it is not, from the information I have—then I would suggest that where the qualified officials who are operating locally for housing authorities have inspected these sites and pronounced judgment on them, that ought to be sufficient. Either the site is suitable or it is not, and if it is not suitable, I do not see that a visit by an inspector from the Department will change things one way or the other. This is one snag that the Minister might look at to see if it is one of the things which might slow down, maybe not extensively but by a matter of weeks, the acquiring of sites.

In regard to rural houses, the dream of piped water throughout the country is an admirable one but we must be realistic. No amount of dreaming will place piped water in a number of these areas. Consequently, I presume in regard to many of these houses, one of two things will happen. Either people will depend on a rainwater supply—which will mean the construction of some sort of reservoir or storage tank and pumping water into another tank in the attic, that is, if the houses are to be serviced with modern facilities—or there will be attached to houses being built a room which will be used for this purpose when piped water does come their way. I do not have to press the Minister very hard to use his imagination as to what will happen to the room in the meantime. It will probably become some kind of storehouse connected with the house itself.

That brings me to the problem of contractors who are faced with this type of situation in rural housing. They have never faced this problem before. It is something new to them. Quite a large number of rural contractors are used to building to a certain pattern and I am sure when they find that having tendered on a certain basis, everything is not what they thought it would be, they will not be as ready to enter this type of contract in future.

That raises also the question whether all types of house building are costed at the one level. Is housing of the social type costed in the same way as what one might call the luxury-type housing? If we want to have houses built within the capacity of the local authority, aided as they are by State finance of various kinds, we must have regard to the fact that the Department, acting as the watchdog of finance, will exercise control and consequently there will be quite an amount of examination of tenders and so on when they reach the Custom House.

I know it will be immediately said to me if I suggest the adoption of utility building, that this is something we ought not to do. Certainly I should be very loath to suggest the introduction of a type of building that one might describe as monotonous or drab, if it were to appear throughout the country. However, one has to weigh this type of consideration against the absolute necessity of catering for people living in a single room or in two rooms, in houses that are unfit for habitation, or in houses with their relations. It is not beyond the capacity of planners to produce a house which is adaptable and capable of variation without varying in the essentials. I am sure the Minister has seen in his travels abroad something of this problem and how other authorities are dealing with it. I am sure houses could be built with, say, variations in regard to roofing without actually increasing the cost.

I invite the Minister to consider the possibility of building houses on the same lines as those already accepted by the Parliamentary Secretary in regard to schools. The fact that such could be assembled quickly would give us a solution where it is urgently needed. During the past year an urgent problem has arisen in Dublin and caravan-type accommodation was made available. That was an admirable innovation and I am sure the people who secured that type of housing welcomed it. It enabled families to live together which is the all-important thing in so far as christian families in a christian country are concerned.

There is also the question as to how accurate is the survey of actual housing needs, having regard to the fact that a number of people are already living with their in-laws or that young couples having married may have secured a house only on a temporary basis. I have seen applicants for houses being disregarded by a local authority because they were living in what were regarded as fit houses. Of course, that is literally true so far as their conditions are concerned when the actual investigation is made by the health inspector. He finds them in the house of an individual who has let them in but has only let them in for a short time. There is no real justification for saying that these people are not in need of houses. They certainly are in need of houses. No amount of persuasion, or the production of letters written to them to get out, will convince the authority that they are really any worse off. While there are people in the type of house which is described as unfit, uninhabitable or insanitary, then, of course, they will have to come first.

I thought the Minister might have referred to his statement regarding the expanded building programme and the use of the National Building Agency to provide houses here and there. He felt that there could be much more done by this body in regard to housing in rural areas. That certainly is very admirable but is there any reason why the local authorities are not being encouraged to do the work which the National Building Agency would undertake? They have the skilled personnel although at present these are fully engaged. I notice that the Limerick county manager referred to this in his housing survey. He has not enough staff to do this work. I suggest to the Minister that the addition of any extra engineer, who could deal with the work, would be sufficient. There are facilities within any administrative area for the examination of sites. There are the councillors who are able to advise on suitable sites and I cannot see any reason why local authority services could not be expanded to take care of this type of building.

The Minister referred to the types of houses under two headings. He referred to the use of grants to repair, in a temporary fashion, old houses and he referred to the question, in rural housing, of the vesting of cottages. Some counties have been able to avail of the facilities for repairing old houses because they have the personnel to deal with the problem. The fact that these facilities exist is not as widely known as it might be and perhaps the matter could be publicised to a greater extent to make it known that the local authorities can assist in this type of operation. In some towns in County Limerick there are older houses which are still controlled by the landlord and which very often need extensive repairs but which the landlord is not prepared to carry out because of the rent he is receiving. Perhaps the tenants could be facilitated in having the repairs carried out themselves.While they are not the owners of the houses they are occupying them and sometimes their families have been occupying them for so long that they have become virtually the owners. I do not know if there is a legal problem there. I understand that to get the grant the tenant would have to get the written permission of the landlord. Perhaps the Minister would advert to this.

Throughout the country there is this question of cottage repairs. I am sure it is something which will loom large in this debate. The Minister expressed concern that the vesting of these houses is not as rapid as he would wish. I have here the report submitted to the Limerick County Council by the county manager in regard to this matter. I am sure it is not new to the Minister. He expresses a point of view in regard to the urgency of vesting cottages and asks: "Does our obligation end with vesting?" He points out that at that stage what happens sometimes is that the vested cottage is sold for a sum which is beyond the reach of those who need houses within the area where the cottage is and that the house, which is provided by the local authority and central funds, passes on to somebody who can pay the higher sum rather than to somebody more urgently in need of the house.

Another factor to which he referred was something which I mentioned here last year. Has a survey taken place in the country at large in regard to houses which are available and are unoccupied at present? The manager carried out a survey in Limerick and found that 135 vested cottages have been closed for four or five years. He asks the council whether it is desirable that this should happen. He points out that there is a demand for the erection of expensive houses to deal with this problem, where there are houses which have been erected with the aid of public and local authority funds and which were built for a type of people which originally they were meant to serve but which are not available to them any longer. The question of repairs in this respect is something which is imposing a very large burden on the local authorities. They must provide the funds to keep these houses in repair. A question which came to my mind and which I put to the Minister is: Is there any logical reason, or is there any reason in principle, why a Department should not pay to the local authority the ordinary grants they would pay to the private individual for the repair or modernisation of such cottages?

Everybody knows that at present if an individual applies for a grant for the repair of his house, the engineers insist at that stage on certain work which requires to be carried out and a sum is allocated to the individual concerned which will enable him to have the house made habitable. I should like to hear the case for the argument that a grant ought not to be payable in the same circumstances to the local authorities for the type of repair they carry out on these properties.The Minister may say that these are their own houses. Certainly they are their own houses in so far as they have been erected by them and are in public ownership, but they are occupied by people and so long as those people and their families after them inhabit these houses, they are virtually the owners of them. Perhaps this might encourage the councils to deal earlier with repairs which would remove the need for major repairs at a later stage. That policy would lengthen the useful life of the house. It would be an inducement to local authorities to engage in that type of programme.

It is quite some time since the Fine Gael Party announced publicly they would enable farmers to build houses and that the cost would be placed on the annuity. I am glad to note that the Minister is thinking along the same lines. Many of the houses in rural Ireland date back to the days of the landlords. Certainly, some of them, of the bothán type, are well over 100 years in existence. The replacement of such holdings is an immense problem and it is completely beyond the financial capacity of the inhabitants of such houses to deal with it. It is time this problem were recognised and dealt with at national level so that the same type of facility would be given to small farmers as has been available for the housing of other classes. All that is asked is that the necessary capital will be available for the erection of these houses and that it will be put on the annuities over 35 or 40 years.

The time has come for a review of the subsidy level in relation to housing. It is no longer a question of housing merely at local level. Housing is not just a question of local administration. Local administration is availed of for convenience to deal with housing problems but housing is a national problem and a national asset. Our progress in housing is reflected, not just in terms of the asset it represents to the district in which it is located or to the rates but as an asset to the country in general. Good housing begets respect for the country. It has its value even so far as the tourist industry is concerned.The Minister might with great benefit to the housing drive review the impetus of local authorities, as the agents of the Department at local level, in this connection.

Mention has already been made of contracts for housing. The Minister pointed out that it is becoming more difficult to get contractors for this type of work. I should like to hear why this is so. Is it a question of the level at which the engineering staff, locally and Departmentally, consider a house ought to be built? Is that reasonable against the contracts the Department are receiving or does the Minister consider it is in excess of the normal building costs? If the contractor system is failing, with what do we propose to replace it? Do we propose to make any large-scale attempt to engage in direct labour building? Is this the answer? Surely the housing problem cannot be allowed to hang because contractors are unwilling—I take it because they think the margin allowed them is not sufficient—to do the work? If that be the case, it would not do any harm to say so and let these people prove that such is not the case. Otherwise, it is incumbent on the Minister to take another course.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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