Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Nov 1963

Vol. 205 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29 — Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration"
— (Deputy Jones).

The matter of programming about which I was talking when the debate was adjourned is one which I should like further to impress on Deputies as being of very great importance to the future of house building and building generally carried out by local authorities throughout the country. It is a matter that I will be dealing with much more specifically in the very near future and will be taking up directly with the local authorities concerned with a view to bringing about a balanced approach to the problems on hands at the moment and to ensuring that building, particularly house building, will follow a fairy even pattern, not a pattern of starting and stopping, as may have been the case in the past.

The general indications that I have given of what we have been doing as a Government and through the Department of Local Government in particular, are a complete answer to the assertions that we were trying to slow down the spending of money for such very necessary purposes as housing and other social services. There are a number of other items in the general overall position that should be mentioned, which are additional proof, if that is necessary, that far from depressing expenditure on these services which are of benefit to the community as a whole, in fact we have been doing the reverse, namely, stimulating and increasing expenditure and introducing further and greater expenditure under various other heads.

For instance, a matter of some concern to the agricultural community would be that from 1956 to 1963, by deliberate action of the Government and through legislation in this House, we have increased the amount paid from the general Exchequer by way of agricultural rates relief from £5.2 million in 1956 to £8.5 million in 1963-64. In addition, again dealing with the farming community, in order to induce farmers to avail of the improved grants provided by the Department of Agriculture for the reconstruction and erection of farm buildings, we brought into being a 20-year complete remission of all rates on such new buildings or reconstructed buildings as would come under this heading. Previously there had been exemption for a limited period of seven years. These two matters are again an indication of our wish to accelerate building, contrary to the allegation made that we are trying to depress it.

A few facts should be kept in mind in regard to the Road Fund and road construction. The relevant facts are that when we took over from the previous administration in the early part of 1957 we found the situation to be that there was £4.1 million of commitments laid at the door of the Road Fund. Incidentally, that commitment had risen from £1.8 million in 1953-54, which was the last year in which the previous Fianna Fáil Government had been in office. While £5.1 million was allocated for road reconstruction, repair, improvement and maintenance in 1956-57, this year there is £8.07 million allocated to our various local authorities and, despite this very noticeable increase, the commitments on the Fund are being contained at the, I think, fairly reasonable and safe figure of £3.4 million. It should be borne in mind that this £8.07 million is available for payment out to local authorities this year, which is more than could be said for the £5.1 million which was allocated in 1956-57, which, but for the advent of the Fianna Fáil administration in the early part of 1957, would not have been available for payment to these councils.

These are figures which should be kept in mind and should provide food for thought to those who talk about Fianna Fáil depressing spending, depressing building, depressing construction and who allege that that was deliberate policy generated by the terms of the Programme for Economic Expansion issued in November, 1958.

Now I come to the various things we have been endeavouring to do with regard to roads and road traffic. As the House is aware, we brought in and got through this House very extensive road traffic legislation a couple of years ago and since then we have been endeavouring to bring in by way of regulation the various matters which had yet to be attended to as outlined in the Act but which it was left to the Minister to bring into operation as and when the time was ripe. We did bring in regulations and put into operation almost immediately quite a considerable part of the Act dealing with penalties, new offences and so forth and in the past couple of years we have seen other fruits of the Act in the traffic signs, parking bye-laws, fines on the spot—so-called fines on the spot at any rate—and recently we brought into being quite elaborate and complex regulations dealing with construction, equipment and lighting of vehicles, which, no doubt, were very much needed but which took a considerable amount of time because of the complexities involved and the consultations which it was necessary to have before being in a position to bring in the regulations. At present we are dealing with all of Part III of the Act, which includes, amongst other things, the driving test regulations, and we would hope to bring in this Part of the Act in the very near future.

In addition, we have had submitted to us in the recent past the Report of the Commission set up to deal with driving under the influence of drink or drugs. The public have been given until the 30th of this month to express their views on certain aspects of this Report. The Leader of the main Opposition mentioned one aspect of this—the question of the intake of alcohol. I entirely agree with his approach to this matter, which is that a fixed figure of alcohol content in the blood should not now or ever be an indication of whether a person is drunk or sober. This figure, which will be based on all the experience we can garner, will merely indicate the point at which it is held alcohol can be taken and beyond which it can be said, not that a person is drunk, but that his driving would not be as good as if he had taken less alcohol. That is the approach that is intended. We should not go into the never-ending argument as to when one man is drunk and when another man is drunk, which cannot be decided by how many pints and how many half-ones they have had. The Leader of the main Opposition referred also to "breathaliser" tests and whether blood tests were objectionable or not. I do not intend to deal with these points now, because I do not think that would be relevant, but they will come up for debate in due course. As I said, we are giving up to the 30th of this month for the public to express their views. On the basis of that, we will decide what form this legislation will take; and the legislation will be brought before the House as soon as possible. Any flaws that have emerged in the working of the new Road Traffic Act will be corrected in this amending Bill.

The question of speed limits has been discussed. Naturally, not all of the views expressed coincided. The question of the siting of traffic signs is currently under review by the local technical committees. These will report to their local authorities, who will transmit to me their considered opinions, on which I will be entitled to act. I expect this to be done in a very short time.

One charge made on which I should like to comment is that the 30 m.p.h. limit is frustrating and causing accidents. I entirely disagree with the view that the 30 m.p.h. limit is the cause of accidents by frustrating drivers who want to get by.

The Minister should drive a little himself.

The Minister was driving in 30 m.p.h. limit areas before the Deputy was ever seen here.

I suggest he drive a little in this country.

I have driven a lot here. This idea of frustration being caused by those observing the limit is entirely wrong. What I regard as the correct assessment of the position is that the slow-moving driver, who hugs the crown of the road regardless of whether it is within the speed limit area or not, is the cause of a great deal of frustration that does lead to accidents — in other words, people who will not keep to their own side of the road when they are driving at a slow speed. If they are doing 30 m.p.h. in a 30 m.p.h. speed limit area, there is no reason why they should be passed out, because those passing them out would themselves be breaking the speed limit. It is the driver who hugs the centre of the road who is the cause of a great deal of frustration and is, indirectly or directly, the cause of accidents, because those behind him take a chance in order to try and get by.

Deputy Coogan says there are too many poles in Galway. I am not inclined to disagree with him at all. I think what he had in mind was the apparently haphazard manner in which poles for signs of various kinds are erected. I am aware that this is something which happens not alone in Galway but in other counties as well. We have at present in course of preparation a memorandum on this subject which will be directed to local authorities. It invites them to take a little more care in the placing of these signs and to try and avoid erecting a multiplicity of signs where fewer would do.

I cannot pass from this question of road traffic legislation without mentioning the Safety First Association. They have introduced a new scheme and have appointed two organisers, one based in Limerick and one in Sligo. I understand it is their intention to cover the south-west and north-west and to put across as much safety first propaganda as possible, particularly to the school-going population. I want to congratulate the Association on this scheme and to ask schools throughout the country to co-operate with these organisers wherever possible. This scheme is well worth trying. If it is a success and can be further developed, it will give a good return for the money invested in it. As I said to the Safety First Association, while we in the Department are in fact contributing towards the scheme, if the scheme is worked in a good way, and shows signs of success, they will be pushing an open door, so far as financial assistance is concerned.

When I referred to Deputy McQuillan and his arguments—or, should I say, complaints—about the cul-de-sac roads being taken over by the council in Roscommon and not being included for the purpose of existing road grants, I should have said, lest it might be mis-understood, that other counties do not have that mileage counted either, so there is no question of Roscommon being dealt with in an isolated or unique way. They are getting their due of the Road Fund money.

On that matter of Road Fund moneys, I do not agree with the general sweeping assertions that roads are being made too wide and too elaborate. Where arterial roads are concerned, we have not only to improve these roads and bring them up to a standard capable of carrying today's traffic, but we have to look ahead and try to visualise by way of figures and anticipate growth for the future and anticipate the needs for those roads for a number of years ahead. On that basis, and in respect of what we might call arterial roads, the width and the manner of their construction is not in fact outside of that which is called for in the circumstances. In addition, I should say that local authorities were given the power, which they did not enjoy until a few years ago, of vetting the proposals of their county engineer, in so far as road proposals were concerned before their submission for final approval to the Department of Local Government. That power was given to them and that right was given to the elected members in 1958. In so far as Roscommon is concerned, I am not aware that they have exercised that right since then. Whether the roads were too wide or too narrow, so far as I can ascertain, they have not utilised that right, or adopted counter-proposals to those put before them by their county engineer.

There is the complaint, which is not an unusual one, of not enough money being spent on county and by-roads. That is one which depends on which view you wish to take. You can make a strong argument for and against. The figures I have are quite enlightening.From 1953 to 1962, we have in fact spent £24.7 million on our county roads and at the same time, we have spent £15.8 million on our main roads. The criticism I have heard, which really lacks any reason whatsoever, was advanced by Deputy Byrne and Deputy Rooney — Deputy Rooney on behalf of county Dublin and Deputy Byrne on behalf of the Dublin Corporation area. Both of them fell into the mistaken idea — how I just cannot imagine — that the amount, for instance, given to the Dublin Corporation is based on the road mileage within the Corporation area. As a result, Deputy Byrne insisted that the amount allocated was far too low. In the first place no such calculation is based on road mileage so far as road mileage for Dublin Corporation is concerned. Secondly, the question of the amount being far too low is wrong, for the reason that Dublin is getting more than they ever even asked for at the present time. Nobody who knows the facts will attempt to deny that.

In so far as County Dublin is concerned, Deputy Rooncy follows much the same line as Deputy Byrne, and even with less reason, with complaints as to what they have been getting or the condition of particular roads at present. Dublin county, as some members of this House will recall— particularly those on the Opposition benches — have had a special grant reserved for them since 1947, and despite repeated requests from several Ministers, it is only in the last little while that they have taken cognisance of the fact that there was money reserved for them or that they had a job to do on their roads in and out of Dublin city and through the county. The idea that they are not getting enough is wrong and is entirely without foundation and completely untrue.

The record is there to show that not only have they been getting money but, in fact, they have not been spending the money they were getting and, for some peculiar reason, for years did not want to spend it. There is now a revival on their part and I am glad to see it and glad to see at least we are getting work done, and work under way that in fact should have been done 15 years ago, work which is probably costing three times as much today as it would have cost then. It is giving rise in the entire city and county of Dublin, due to the fact that these roads were not done when they should have been done, to very great congestion and loss of time and money to the users of our roads.

It has been said that dual carriage-ways should be made in and out of Dublin. I cannot say that I do disagree with that view. I am not saying categorically that that is what we will have but the need for greater ease on the main roads in and out of Dublin city has grown in importance. The size and number of industries is such that this is certainly not too far-reaching a view to take in regard to what may be needed in the not too distant future.

Getting back to what we would propose to do, I am merely reciting those and many other facts to contradict in a very emphatic and definite way the assertions made by some of the Opposition speakers and showing in this way that we have been really pushing ahead with general development of services throughout the country.

I would now indicate to the House in some little detail new legislation and schemes which will come into being in the very near future. In regard to housing legislation, for instance, we have coming, I hope in the not too distant future, new housing legislation which will codify and simplify the existing several codes which have been in operation for a number of years. At the same time, we will deal with the newly and recently announced increased assistance for small farmers by way of increased grants for privately-built houses which will be supplemented by increased loans from the Land Commission.

In so far as the smaller of the small farmers are concerned, they will still be enabled to build their own homes. We will be placing on the local authorities, a responsibility, which up to now they have not had, of building for these under-£5 valuation people. In addition to giving them responsibility, we shall give them assistance where-with to do it. We shall so design this scheme that the cost to the rates will not be a burden to the community. At the same time, it will be an incentive to the local authorities to build for these people, particularly in the West of Ireland and along our coast where up to the moment they have been unable to build.

In so far as subtenancies policy is concerned, I can tell the House that new legislation will bring about a radical change and will leave some of those who have talked in this House not only this year but last year without one of their stock arguments. We intend to remove the absolute prohibition on the subtenanting of local authority housing. That will bring about a situation wherein our local authority houses will be used as near to their full capacity as is practicable. In other words, we shall not have waste space. We shall not have, say, five-roomed local authority houses going to loss with maybe only one or two occupants which for the time being could house — as many are illegally housing at the moment— other members of the same family who are married.

Consequent upon the removal of this prohibition, there will follow a higher rate of subsidy for the rehousing of those people who occupy, as subtenants, these houses if, in the future, they become over-crowded with the normal progression of the family.

Irrespective of income?

We shall have to look at that. However, without tying it down to the income levels at the moment, let us say the prohibition that exists will be removed. The illegality, as it were, that now attaches to these people will be removed. Where overcrowding will be removed. result of subtenanting, as is the case at the moment and as will develop with this type of system in the future, a higher subsidy will generally be available for the rehousing of those people out of these local authority houses.

In addition, we shall have to get down to the problem of doing something really solid and concrete about the housing of our old people. In earlier legislation and in regard to grants schemes I have tried to encourage the housing of these people. There is evidence at the moment that some good is coming from that encouragement but we shall have to place more emphasis on it in the future. It is a growing problem. We are having more old people and as the years go on we shall have a greater number of old people. If we are to do something for them, we must start soon. Otherwise, a lot of these people will be in very poor circumstances, with no hope for the future but an extension of the county home system which none of us wants and which we should not endure in these times.

Therefore, I would hope to be in a position on this occasion to have a new approach, a new push, to try to get over this problem that has not just come about overnight. It did not come about last year or the year before. It is a problem which has been growing in volume for a number of years because priority was given, and probably rightly so, to the larger young families living in very bad conditions.But, by and large, it is a very big problem now and one which we cannot tolerate to continue in its present from for very much longer.

I shall have much to say on these items when this legislation comes before the House. However, I consider myself rather lucky to have been Minister for Local Government whilst there is in office a Government who can foresee and who are prepared to go as far as this Government are prepared to go to relieve these types of people, particularly the small farmers whose housing needs have been recognised by many of us for many years but, for various reasons, have not been dealt with. They will be dealt with in the future and I think effectively. I shall be inviting our local authorities in the very near future to prepare, on the basis of this new assistance, their definite building programmes for these people so that we can get going with this job and get going immediately.

Near the beginning of my reply I referred to the first Economic Programme issued in 1958. I probably would wish to finish on a more recent economic programme—a White Paper issued quite recently in which it is foreshadowed that by 1970 there should be an additional increase of 50 per cent in our national income. If we can, and I believe we can, and the signs are there to show we can, accomplish anything around this figure, then it is quite obvious that there are not only the problems we have been talking about facing us but an increasing volume of that type of problem due to the greater prosperty that will be created. Greater needs will arise, for instance, with earlier marriages and more families seeking new houses. With the greater wealth, we shall also have no doubt an increasing number of private cars which will add to our traffic problem and in turn add to our demand for roads, and so on. All of this increase in our productivity and general improvement in our economy to anything like 50 per cent, as foreshadowed in this decade, will strain us to the limit to keep up with the demand that will undoubtedly follow from it, added to that of the backlog we have in these respects at the moment.

Therefore, as far as Local Government policy and planning are concerned, I feel that probably the most important legislation we have put through this House — taking an overall view of it — in recent years has been the Planning Act. Within that Planning Act, all of these developments I have mentioned can find their proper place and proper setting. It is on the background generally of the terms and conditions of this Planning Act that we can programme and plan for the future. It is of very great importance, I believe, that we should keep this in mind. With the 1970s, with the optimistic outlook on this type of progress and development which I think is becoming common to the people of this country today then we must have a far wider range of imagination than has been our lot in the past. We must consider the huge advances that must necessarily follow this type of national economic growth. We must plan for it not only for today but for seven, ten and 20 years hence. To do that, we shall require this optimistic outlook and imagination which has not been terribly evident due to various circumstances in the past.

This Act should enable all of us in local government to correlate our various activities and to set them all into a planned pattern which will be the way in which we shall attain the ends and goals we set ourselves most readily and most economically. If this type of growth is to go on and if there is, as we can anticipate, not only today's demand for housing, for instance, but an increasing demand in these next seven years to anything like that indicated by this type of growth then we have to ask ourselves if, under our present conditions and within our present methods, we can hope to keep up with the demand, for instance, for houses. If we are to keep up, then I am convinced that there must be a very great change in our traditional methods. They must be much more streamlined than they are today; there must be much more method on the sites of our building jobs, much more mechanisation and pre-planning. The haphazard operation of some of our developments of the past will not be tolerated in the future.

This is a time of great challenge to the building industry and that challenge can be met by an improvement in our present type of organisation and, if necessary, we will have to go into the realm of industrialised building which is working successfully in several countries in Europe and elsewhere.A really telling coincidence exists today when we compare our situation with the development of industrialised building in other countries.Today we have here a growing necessity for more houses. We have somewhat of a backlog to make up; we have other building works proceeding at the same time; and we have a greater demand for skilled building workers than we can supply. The answer to that may be better organisation and more mechanisation but we may also attract back to their own country some of the disillusioned building operatives who left us some years back.

What we have in common with these countries where there is mechanised building is this necessity for more houses, this backlog in housing and this great demand for building workers. Each of these countries which have the same problem have developed various forms of industrialised or prefabricated building and we are coming to that stage here. If our traditional system of building is not an answer to that problem, we will have to look further afield to industrialised building to cope with our problem. In talking to the master builders a year ago, I put this type of problem to them in somewhat different terms, telling them that this was the type of problem they would have to grapple with and asking from the industry as a whole, whether employers or employees, some type of development that would give us a greater out-turn of work. The results so far are not very bright but there may be developing in the minds of some of those groups certain proposals of which we have not heard. I hope there are such proposals and that they can give us a greater output of building than is possible at the moment.

The result of this situation which I have outlined is that there is a greater amount of building work available than we can cope with. Another result is that we have not only greater delays but that there is, no doubt, a greater percentage being added to the price to compensate for that. It has the effect of putting up the cost of housing further and beyond what it would be in the natural course of events. We cannot stand by and let this trend continue to its ultimate end. That would lead nowhere and create great difficulty for us in our efforts to cope with our problem.

I should have mentioned that in our proposed new housing legislation, we would hope to facilitate building by greater subsidy incentive to the building of high rise dwellings in Dublin city. We cannot forever go on spreading the city over the fields of County Dublin, and we cannot continue to do that while we know that there are left at present the remnants of the old tenements which were cleared in the past 20 or 30 years. There is in Dublin this core of bad building which must come down and which must be replaced.A great deal of it is in the centre of the city. The land there is too valuable to be just left there covered by the useless and obsolete buildings which are now on it. If we are to utilise these sites, we should do so to the greatest possible degree, consonant with greater and better traffic routing in our cities. This is something in which the Government will help and there will be indications that for the purpose of high rise buildings, we will be prepared to give greater financial assistance where this type of building is necessary than we would give for the normal type of building.

I have also indicated that off-street car parking is a necessity for this city and that local authorities can get grants from the Road Fund to construct such off-street car parks. These need not necessarily be on cleared sites. There is very good reason why the question of multi-floored car parks should be gone into thoroughly. Dublin Corporation are thinking along those lines and we shall be hearing from them in the form of requests for assistance in these matters.

The rebuilding of Dublin, Limerick, Cork and other cities or the planning for that rebuilding was not clearly feasible until the passing of the Town Planning Act. A great deal of the centre city building will now come in for redevelopment and we now have the law to handle that position. Up to the passing of that Act, we had not reached the point where we could face up to the actual cost nor, may I say, had we the will to face up to it. I believe we have now reached the point where we must do this, that we have reached the point where we cannot allow our city centres to fall into decay and where this rebuilding of obsolete dwellings is part of our programme for the future.

To finish on an aspect of the subject with which I began, local authorities, I did say definitely and emphatically as Minister for Local Government I had every right to criticise local authorities where I thought fit. Not only that, but I have an obligation to criticise them because a great deal of the money channelled into local authorities comes from the Central Exchequer through my Department. That does not mean that I am carping at local authorities, or that I wish to find fault with them. To put me in the position of saying that I would say such things would be an entirely wrong conception of my mind on local authorities and their functions. I have tried and shall continue to try, to work with local authorities in the greatest harmony and co-operation possible because I believe that if the central Government and local government are to work most effectively, that will be done when there is harmony and co-operation.I feel that is, in fact, there now.

If at times anything said by me may be twisted to suit a particular local political figurehead, that is unavoidable, but my wish is to co-operate and I think in general we have been co-operating and our progress, locally and centrally, in the services with which we deal, depends very greatly on harmony and co-operation.

In regard to Dublin housing which we had at the beginning and end of the debate, for the benefit of those who might have any doubts, I want to explain what the role of the Government has been and its effects in Dublin city and elsewhere. I have shown already that no house and no building with which I have had anything to do, as Minister for Local Government, was held up at any time for want of money. Money has been available for any and all schemes operated through, or under, my Department during all the years I have been in the Custom House and there is no Deputy in any Party and nobody outside the House who can give any proof to the contrary.

It is true we need quite a considerable number of houses in Dublin to-day.That number has grown rapidly in the past couple of years. It is true also that the number of new houses completed in Dublin in recent years has been showing, up to last year, a continuing decline, but it is also relevant, when we come to judge the situation and to condemn either the Minister for Local Government or Dublin Corporation, that we should not only consider the number of houses completed in these years but that we should take into consideration the number of vacancies occurring in the housing stock which exists in Dublin today.

Let me put on record again that there is wonder in the greater part of Europe, if not in the world, among many in public bodies, at the high percentage of local authority housing constructed by Dublin Corporation which has one of the highest figures for any city of comparable size in any part of the globe. That is so, despite the narking and carping criticisms we may hear here, without any thought for what has been done in years gone by.

Coming back to figures which are the relevant factor in this argument, the decline in the number of houses being completed in Dublin Corporation area and, parallel to that, the corresponding rise in the number of vacancies, there was a vacancy rate of 639 in 1954-55 rising to 1,689 in 1959-60. On the other side of the scale, completions of new houses stood at 1,922 in 1954-55 and dropped to 505 in 1959-60. Adding those figures we get the net new tenancies created in each of the years in question. Taking the first and last figures and leaving out the others, we get 25,061 new tenancies created in 1954-55 and 21,094 in 1959-60.

Figures will prove practically anything.

The figures in between vary. There is a figure for 1955-56 which is 2,100, less than the figure for 1959-60. It was 2,500 in the following year, dropping to 2,400 in the year after that. Taking the whole line right along, the net tenancies created, that is, the number of new houses completed, plus houses vacated, and adding them together gives a general picture of the situation as it has been over the past eight years.

The Minister says nothing about the number of applications.

The Deputy should bear with me. Not on my own behalf but on behalf of somebody who was absent, I intervened in the debate. I like to hear what Deputies have to say but I do not like to be interrupted when I think I have something to say.

I am sorry for interrupting.

I think the combined figures are the figures on which one must judge the approach of Dublin Corporation to the housing problem in the critical years under review. I ask any member on any side of the House, is it not a fact that until 1960, and until the number of vacancies for the first time had begun to show a downward trend, as Deputy Sherwin said, it was only then that the "wise boys" began to see they needed more houses? I think that is a fact and to use these figures in other ways to condemn or criticise or level charges at Dublin Corporation or its housing committee is wrong; it is based on absolutely wrong arguments and wilfully so based in most cases, I fear.

These were the figures on which the Corporation and the housing committee had to base their calculations. Everybody knows you do not decide to have new houses and have them next week or next month or even next year. Part of the overall procedure is that it takes about three years from the decision to build houses until you actually have them and in many cases you are lucky to have them in about three years. Taking those figures as the criterion on which undoubtedly the Corporation Housing Committee had to judge the situation we also must take into consideration the overall picture as it was. Much as we might like to do so, we cannot forget about it if we want to consider the matter in its true light.

We find we have an increasing vacancy rate, increasing because of the depression that had befallen the country at the time of the departure, and immediately before the departure, of the last Coalition Government of 1954-57. That depression continued for a considerable period afterwards.

People continued to leave the Dublin Corporation housing estates in their hundreds and eventually a peak figure of 1,600 vacancies occurred. Had the Dublin Corporation continued to build at the rate of which they had been building two or three years previously they would have had hundreds of houses with no tenants for them. Had they done that those who now criticise the Dublin Corporation for not building would make the charge that there had been a complete waste of public money on houses for which there were no tenants and, because there are a number of their own members on the Dublin Corporation, they want the Minister now to take the rap.

Prior to 1960 no one could have made the charge that the Dublin Corporation were not building enough houses. But people are always wise after the event and it is quite easy to come along now and assert that more houses should have been built. It is quite easy for Deputy Dunne to ask how many applications there are. There are upwards of 10,000 applications but of that 10,000 only 4,500 are cleared as eligible for and entitled to housing by the Dublin Corporation. This round figure of 10,000 has been repeated here by those who do not know the true facts and who probably believe that that figure represents the situation.

That is the situation.

10,000 applications of which 4,500 are admitted as liable for housing by the Dublin Corporation.

It is 10,000.

The list of applicants is never a true reflection of the responsibility of the local authority. We all know from our own practical experience that local authorities do not accept responsibility for housing every single person who makes application, regardless of personal circumstances or housing conditions. To say there are 10,000 applicants without a roof over their heads is to grossly misrepresent the true position. Of course, the exaggeration suits the mentality of those who indulge in it. It does not reflect the true picture. Neither is it fair to the members of a local authority which is faced with the task of dealing with the problem now. It is particularly invidious when one remembers that it is made by people who are themselves members of that same local authority. These wild charges are made but no effort is made to substantiate them by people who are themselves members of that body and who have done nothing worthwhile for the people they allegedly represent.

We must look at the position in its proper background of the general depression so evident not alone in this city but all over the country at the time when the Coalition Government left office and in the years immediately after. Nobody will realise better than the Members of that Coalition Government that it took years to straighten things out. We had to pay the bills of the Coalition. We found we had a backlog of moneys which had to be paid out. We even had a backlog of sanctions for jobs that needed to be done. We found we had to supplement the Road Fund so that men would not be thrown out of employment and our roads would not deteriorate still further; we had to do that as a result of the raid of £500,000 on that fund only a few short months before.

These things have to be said to get the proper picture. This is the way in which to prove the rising vacancy rate. The Dublin Corporation had been told in January, 1957, that there would be no money in the future except for things which were absolutely essential. The vacancy rate continued to rise in 1958 and probably the Dublin Corporation pulled in their horns very quickly. They were lucky because the trend which evolved in the years 1954 to 1957 continued; there was a general depression, a general exodus from the city, a closing down of work, rising unemployment and increasing emigration. Surely the Dublin Corporation should not be branded because of that depression and those who were members of that Coalition Government should be the last to brand any local authority for not taking an optimistic view. How could anyone take an optimistic view in that particular period?

After some time then the trend grew less and, as emigration eased, Dublin Corporation began immediately to set in motion plans for more housing. In 1960/61, the improving trend really became evident and, so soon as the Dublin Corporation had proof of that improving trend, they immediately started to build. Building increased in 1961/62. The upward swing continued in 1962/63. The swing will go higher in 1963/64. In two or three years, it will be four times, if not five times, what it was two years ago. It takes up to three years to complete a house from the time the decision is taken to build. That is the situation and that is the situation that should be studied by those who criticise. They should keep in mind the fact that there were 100,000 unemployed, that 70,000 had emigrated in the previous year, that the balance of payments of this country was in a disastrous condition, that our national finances were chaotic and that our Budgets were unbalanced, as we found to our cost when we came to office, by more than £6 million, even if we still had Deputies like Deputy Coogan hanging around saying otherwise.

On top of all that, there were instructions and admonitions handed out by Ministers in that Government in 1957 to all our managers throughout the country not to proceed with or put forward anything unless it was absolutely vital, not to do anything in fact that would put an extra demand on the Exchequer because the Exchequer was not able to bear any demands. That was the position. We had the Road Fund raided to stop a hole in the boat. I admit the hole was not too big, but the boat was not a very good one. It was that raiding of the Road Fund for £500,000, at a time when the Road Fund could not afford to be raided for anything, which left us in the position that not only had we to put that back but we had to add hundreds of pounds extra to make up for what they had done.

We did not stoop to caravans, anyway.

Do not mind Deputy Coogan. I would remind Deputy Coogan that as far as his county and mine are concerned, we shall be very glad to see all the caravans we can get coming into those counties. Is that not what we want? Is the Deputy too dumb to comprehend?

Caravans instead of building houses — is that not a fine future?

As the litany goes, I know it is depressing and I am sorry to have it interrupted because they should have the whole pill together or they will be sick for days. They clamped down on building, persuading the public mind that we had finished building houses. That was what my predecessor, Deputy O'Donnell, did, and it was repeated by the Minister for Finance before they left office in 1957. If there is foundation for the belief that the public mind was conditioned to not building as many houses as in the past, that was started by members of the Coalition, through the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Finance, plus repetition by a number of other Ministers

Could we have the references?

I shall give you all the references you want.

If the Minister proceeds to quote people, we must get the references.

I have not quoted them.

It appears to me you have.

I do not mind what appears to the Deputy. What must appear to the Deputy are the ghosts of those days, particularly of the days when his Party stood up here to criticise Fianna Fáil and lay at their door the blame for all the shortcomings.They blame Fianna Fáil now for lack of houses to provide for our returning emigrants. As against that depressing litany, here we have now a situation in which employment is rising, in which there is more secure employment than ever before, in which our people are being paid better than ever before. Is that not a fact? Is it not also a fact that in this year we have seen for the first time in many years an actual rise in the population, a new low in emigration?

He really believes it.

Our balance of payments is in a safe and sound position. Every one of our Budgets has been a balanced Budget as distinct from the bankrupt Budgets of the bankrupt Coalition from 1954 to 1957. Our National Loan is not only a success but is oversubscribed, as against the loans they put up. Swallow that now.

Five million pounds out of Departmental funds.

Is it not also true, as Deputy Donegan well knows, that no single job of construction in this country, not even a single house in the past 6½ years, has been held up for want of money, whereas at the time of the Coalition in 1956 and 1957, there was not one housing scheme because everything that could be stopped was stopped? Nothing was being paid for and the people were told: "Do not put up houses".

We built twice as many houses.

I challenge the Minister to give the figures for housing in Galway.

I thought the Deputy was challenging me on the veracity of what I was saying. Of course, that was not what he wanted to do. Why can they not sit still in their seats? Let them hear some more of it.

Five million pounds were taken out of one pocket and put into the other. Do not be afraid: we shall not sabotage your National Loan as you did ours. We shall let your National Loan go on because we have the good of the country at heart.

If the truth were known in the Deputy's little breast and in the breasts of many Deputies over there who were sharing out the portfolios here not so many days ago, they were hoping the loan which was then closing would in fact have been thrown in their laps for dissemination in their own mad way a few days later. Thanks to the sanity of the House, that did not happen.

Thanks to the cheque book.

The Deputy has mentioned cheque books and I am glad he did, though it is not something that should be raised in the House. Since it has been raised, however, I want to say as a member of this Government, on behalf of this Government and on behalf of the Independent Deputies who supported this Government on that night——

May the Lord forgive you!

There are a number of things to be forgiven and this is not one of them. Let the Deputies over there just take it now. This allegation has been flaunted inside the House but not outside it. It is not doing any good to this House. Do not mind what injuries you do to the members of the Fianna Fail Party. I refute the allegation completely and entirely on behalf of the Government and those Independent Deputies who supported us. In so far as I am aware, we have not at any stage held ourselves out to buy or corrupt any member of any Party in the House, and that is more than can be said about the members of that Party over there, and they know it. Keep your seats now; do not move about. If there were any offers held out, they were held out by members of the Opposition, not by Fianna Fáil.

That is a lie.

Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

Deputies must give the Minister an opportunity to make his statement.

He is making an allegation.

He is entitled to make his speech without interruption.

He made an allegation——

You and your cheque books.

Deputies must allow the Chair to speak.

We can always pay our way.

Is there any respect for the Chair in any part of the House? I shall ask the next Deputy who insists on interrupting to leave the House.

There will be a lot of them leaving the House shortly.

It is these small interruptions which lead to serious charges being made and we know what happened before; we had to bring in a special motion to deal with the matter. It all begins from some small interruption such as those Deputy Coogan is prone to make.

I cannot stick that stuff.

The Deputy has a remedy if he cannot stick it and I have to warn him that if he does not conduct himself in respect of Standing Orders, I shall ask him to leave the House.

I am not the only one.

I must ask the Deputy to respect Standing Orders.

The Minister should tell the truth.

I have told the truth.

Not at all.

And I will continue to tell the truth, and the Deputies opposite will not like the truth any more than they have indicated their liking for it tonight. We are in a very different position today in Local Government and the Dublin Corporation, and every local authority area throughout Ireland is in a different position from the depressed state it was in when Fianna Fáil took office in 1957. Our outlook is bright; the optimism of our people is there for all to see. That is something you cannot get away from. They have faith in the future of this country and in this Government as is evidenced by their subscriptions to the National Loan but a week ago, after the abortive effort to force a general election.

Test it by a general election.

It is difficult to pass up these openings that are made by Deputies opposite but in deference to the Chair and the decorum of the House, I shall not follow these asides any further. Ours today is a growing economy. Local government has a vital and increasing role to play in that development and if we are to meet the needs of local government services, we in the central Government and in the local councils must be prepared to plan for the job that lies ahead. So far as my Department, I and this Government are concerned, we are wholeheartedly behind our local authorities in this planning and will give every possible assistance and, further, we will give the money and we will be able to pay the money, which is more than could be said for the last Coalition Government when they left office.

May I ask the Minister one question? He referred to returned emigrants and we were told by the county manager last night that emigrants who left local authority houses and now want to return are not eligible for consideration. Is that right?

I cannot comment on what the Deputy's county manager told him last night but if he would let me have particulars, I certainly will do my best to help.

Question: "That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration", put and declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.
Top
Share